Cantarell? (Was: Re: Planned GNOME Shell UI changes (was Re: String and UI Change Announcement))
Given recent discussions regarding the use of this list, I'm unsure whether I should be responding to this question here. That said, I do want to ensure that people get answers to queries like this. Andrew Cowie wrote: On Mon, 2011-01-10 at 12:33 -0500, Owen Taylor wrote: * The default font will be changing to Cantarell Cantarell? If Cantarell is this, http://abattis.org/cantarell/ which says As my very first typeface design... designed for on-screen reading; in particular, reading web pages on an HTC Dream mobile phone ... font file currently contains 391 glyphs then at first glance it seems an odd choice. DejaVu serves us well with outstanding coverage across the Unicode space and one of the only fonts with complimentary Serif, Sans, and Sans Mono families. Do we need to replace it? It's not a question of coverage; it's about style (though we need to use fonts that have good coverage, of course). The visual style that has been developed for GNOME 3 is one that aspires to be subtle and refined. Stylistically, Cantarell accords with that in a way that DejaVu does not. Another aim for GNOME 3 is to ensure that the new desktop is visually distinctive. Cantarell is a better choice than DejaVu here, too. I'm really excited that we're using this new font for GNOME 3; it has a really nice design and will give the new desktop an extra bit of sophistication. Allan -- Blog: https://afaikblog.wordpress.com/ IRC: aday on irc.gnome.org ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Cantarell? (Was: Re: Planned GNOME Shell UI changes (was Re: String and UI Change Announcement))
On Wed, 2011-01-12 at 11:53 +, Allan Day wrote: Andrew Cowie wrote: On Mon, 2011-01-10 at 12:33 -0500, Owen Taylor wrote: * The default font will be changing to Cantarell Cantarell? If Cantarell is this, http://abattis.org/cantarell/ which says As my very first typeface design... designed for on-screen reading; in particular, reading web pages on an HTC Dream mobile phone ... font file currently contains 391 glyphs then at first glance it seems an odd choice. DejaVu serves us well with outstanding coverage across the Unicode space and one of the only fonts with complimentary Serif, Sans, and Sans Mono families. Do we need to replace it? It's not a question of coverage; it's about style (though we need to use fonts that have good coverage, of course). The visual style that has been developed for GNOME 3 is one that aspires to be subtle and refined. Stylistically, Cantarell accords with that in a way that DejaVu does not. Another aim for GNOME 3 is to ensure that the new desktop is visually distinctive. Cantarell is a better choice than DejaVu here, too. I'm really excited that we're using this new font for GNOME 3; it has a really nice design and will give the new desktop an extra bit of sophistication. Allan According to my fast check (which may be wrong) it seems that it does not cover still used Greek alphabet (tech people aside it is still used in greek language). It does not cover Cyrilic (used among others in Russian) and Chinese and Hindi (I copy the names of national anthem from wikipedia) as well. That alone would make early 40% of world's population according to Wikipedia (sure - probably most Hindi users are bilingual but they would still want to see their documents' titles - fonts are even more important then translation)[1]. I don't think that using Latin alphabet (+ few extentions) + few others (such as Arabic) should be requirement for GNOME 3.0. While it may not be a problem for webpage (it is usually in one language controlled by creator) it is for desktop where you will find large variety of languages. Sure - desktop font probably does not require ⊕ or ⊛ (although it would be nice) but I don't think that cutting large portion of users justify subtle and refined style. Regards [1] Ok. I've just added population of countries - but not fully supporting displaying characters of 2 biggest countries in the world would be rather bad starting from user experience through message sent by Gnome ending on the marketing. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Cantarell?
On Wed, 2011-01-12 at 16:52 +0100, Maciej Piechotka wrote: On Wed, 2011-01-12 at 11:53 +, Allan Day wrote: Andrew Cowie wrote: On Mon, 2011-01-10 at 12:33 -0500, Owen Taylor wrote: * The default font will be changing to Cantarell Cantarell? If Cantarell is this, http://abattis.org/cantarell/ which says As my very first typeface design... designed for on-screen reading; in particular, reading web pages on an HTC Dream mobile phone ... font file currently contains 391 glyphs then at first glance it seems an odd choice. DejaVu serves us well with outstanding coverage across the Unicode space and one of the only fonts with complimentary Serif, Sans, and Sans Mono families. Do we need to replace it? It's not a question of coverage; it's about style (though we need to use fonts that have good coverage, of course). The visual style that has been developed for GNOME 3 is one that aspires to be subtle and refined. Stylistically, Cantarell accords with that in a way that DejaVu does not. Another aim for GNOME 3 is to ensure that the new desktop is visually distinctive. Cantarell is a better choice than DejaVu here, too. I'm really excited that we're using this new font for GNOME 3; it has a really nice design and will give the new desktop an extra bit of sophistication. Allan According to my fast check (which may be wrong) it seems that it does not cover still used Greek alphabet (tech people aside it is still used in greek language). It does not cover Cyrilic (used among others in Russian) and Chinese and Hindi (I copy the names of national anthem from wikipedia) as well. That alone would make early 40% of world's population according to Wikipedia (sure - probably most Hindi users are bilingual but they would still want to see their documents' titles - fonts are even more important then translation)[1]. I don't think that using Latin alphabet (+ few extentions) + few others (such as Arabic) should be requirement for GNOME 3.0. While it may not be a problem for webpage (it is usually in one language controlled by creator) it is for desktop where you will find large variety of languages. DejaVu still exists and will probably still be installed. How bad does it look for DejaVu Cyrillic characters to be shown alongside Cantarell Latin characters? (IIRC, we had the same issue when switching to Vera, before it was forked into DejaVu and other alphabets were added.) -- Shaun ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Cantarell? (Was: Re: Planned GNOME Shell UI changes (was Re: String and UI Change Announcement))
On 12/01/11 10:52 AM, Maciej Piechotka wrote: According to my fast check (which may be wrong) it seems that it does not cover still used Greek alphabet (tech people aside it is still used in greek language). It does not cover Cyrilic (used among others in Russian) and Chinese and Hindi (I copy the names of national anthem from wikipedia) as well. That alone would make early 40% of world's population according to Wikipedia (sure - probably most Hindi users are bilingual but they would still want to see their documents' titles - fonts are even more important then translation)[1]. Maciej, That in itself is not a very big problem. If Cyrillic characters from DejaVu are put into a titlebar file name by fontconfig, they won't look terribly out of place. The problem is if characters that really need to blend well do not, say if you had the word Journée, and the é was pulled from DejaVu. --Pat ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Volunteer needed: Snapshot live image project
2010/12/9 Paul Cutler pcut...@gnome.org: No one is currently maintaining the rPath images - I've talked to the developers at the last 2 GNOME releases and they no longer have the time. So, it took more time than expected, but I have a first shot at a working image : http://susegallery.com/a/zksD5W/gnome-3 For now, it requires a SUSE Studio account (just create one, it is very easy) to download it but I plan to move the image generation and hosting on openSUSE Build Service which will not require any account for downloading. It has a lot of rought edges, doesn't ship with a lot of applications (otherwise filesize would kill everybody) and doesn't feature a full GNOME3 application suite yet, but please, mail me for any issue you find with it. -- Frederic Crozat Novell / SUSE ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Volunteer needed: Snapshot live image project
2011/1/12 Frederic Crozat f...@crozat.net: 2010/12/9 Paul Cutler pcut...@gnome.org: No one is currently maintaining the rPath images - I've talked to the developers at the last 2 GNOME releases and they no longer have the time. So, it took more time than expected, but I have a first shot at a working image : http://susegallery.com/a/zksD5W/gnome-3 For now, it requires a SUSE Studio account (just create one, it is very easy) to download it but I plan to move the image generation and hosting on openSUSE Build Service which will not require any account for downloading. It has a lot of rought edges, doesn't ship with a lot of applications (otherwise filesize would kill everybody) and doesn't feature a full GNOME3 application suite yet, but please, mail me for any issue you find with it. Oh, I forgot : to keep it updated after being dumped on a stick, just run as root zypper up. I'll add this on the webpage -- Frederic Crozat ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Cantarell font
Maciej Piechotka schreef op wo 12-01-2011 om 16:52 [+0100]: According to my fast check (which may be wrong) it seems that it does not cover still used Greek alphabet (tech people aside it is still used in greek language). It does not cover Cyrilic (used among others in Russian) This part of your argument makes sense to me. Greek and Cyrillic are stylistically closely related to the Latin scripts, since they share a large part of their history. Quoting one of the guidelines from The Elements of Typographic Style (a standard text on type by Robert Bringhurst): §6.6.1 Choose non-Latin faces as carefully as Latin ones. [...] The Latin, Greek and Cyrillic alphabets are as closely related in structure as roman, italic and small caps. For what it's worth: there are very few typefaces that have really good coverage for Latin, Greek, and Cyrillic in the same typeface — Minion being a notable exception (non-free though). and Chinese and Hindi (I copy the names of national anthem from wikipedia) as well. However, these examples make no sense to me at all. Quoting from The Elements of Typographic style again: §6.7.4 Don't mix faces haphazardly when specialized sorts are required. The Chinese and Hindi scripts are completely distinct from the European ones. Those deserve their own typefaces, specifically designed with those languages in mind. There is no reason Cantarell should address that. That alone would make early 40% of world's population according to Wikipedia (sure - probably most Hindi users are bilingual but they would still want to see their documents' titles - fonts are even more important then translation)[1]. This is something that Pango/FontConfig may address. My guess is that there is a way to instruct Pango/FontConfig to use a specific set of typefaces in a specific fallback order. — Wouter signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: String and UI Change Announcement Period
Hi! On Sun, 2011-01-09 at 23:31 +0100, Vincent Untz wrote: Hi all, We'll enter the String and UI Change Announcement Period at the end of tomorrow. This means that starting on Tuesday: - all string changes must be announced to both gnome-i18n@ and gnome-doc-l...@. - all user interface changes must be announced to gnome-doc-l...@. It probably makes sense at least for the shell team and for the people working on the default theme to tell gnome-doc-list how much of the UI can be expected to still change during that period. It'd be a shame to have people starting to take many screenshots if they'll all be outdated a few weeks after. I just got started polishing the gnome3 theme, so I guess it'd be good to hold off screenshots for a few days, apologies for the inconvenience. Cheers, Carlos Thanks, Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
