Re: IRC channels in gnome development
On Sun, 2011-02-06 at 03:13 +0100, Olav Vitters wrote: > On Sun, Feb 06, 2011 at 02:02:10AM +, Maciej Piechotka wrote: > > On Sun, 2011-02-06 at 02:52 +0100, Olav Vitters wrote: > > > On Sat, Feb 05, 2011 at 05:25:08PM +, Maciej Piechotka wrote: > > > > Could there be a recommendation against discussion of important > > > > decisions on IRC? While I understand that it may slow down process > > > > probably but it would improve developer-user relationships as well as > > > > transparency and inclusiveness of process. > > > > > > We hold our release-team meetings on IRC and prefer to keep them on IRC. > > > > > > However, we make minutes and send them to the mailing list. > > > > Great. However: > > > > - Which mailing list? There is no gnome-design list listed and on gnome > > wiki there is only reference to gnome-shell mailing list. I am however > > nearly sure it is neither d-d-l nor g-s. > > release-team mailing list. Depending on the topic, devel-announce-list > is informed. > Ups. Sorry - I thought you are from design team. > > > Further, we > > > discuss beforehand when a meeting will be held. Suggest that you propose > > > such things. > > > > > > > I'm sorry but English is my second language and I'm afraid I haven't > > understood last sentence. > > We (release team) make various efforts to keep everyone informed. By > minutes and discussing beforehand when we meet. Further, we send to > devel-announce-list when needed. > > If one team (#gnome-design) doesn't follow that, you can do various > things to actually make things better. A few changes/additions to the > way they work to ensure the process is workable for everyone. This e.g. > by minutes, agreeing on meeting times, etc. > Sounds sensible. As it was stated that they discussed it extensively in such minutes there would be more information about topic hence something to refer to. Regards signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: IRC channels in gnome development
On Sun, Feb 06, 2011 at 02:02:10AM +, Maciej Piechotka wrote: > On Sun, 2011-02-06 at 02:52 +0100, Olav Vitters wrote: > > On Sat, Feb 05, 2011 at 05:25:08PM +, Maciej Piechotka wrote: > > > Could there be a recommendation against discussion of important > > > decisions on IRC? While I understand that it may slow down process > > > probably but it would improve developer-user relationships as well as > > > transparency and inclusiveness of process. > > > > We hold our release-team meetings on IRC and prefer to keep them on IRC. > > > > However, we make minutes and send them to the mailing list. > > Great. However: > > - Which mailing list? There is no gnome-design list listed and on gnome > wiki there is only reference to gnome-shell mailing list. I am however > nearly sure it is neither d-d-l nor g-s. release-team mailing list. Depending on the topic, devel-announce-list is informed. > - Why noone in discussion pointed out the minutes with arguments to > complainers? I'm talking about the release team, not what you're referring to (#gnome-design channel only?). You've requested everyone in GNOME not to discuss important decisions on IRC. I'm pointing out that #1 works fine for release-team and #2 your request is pretty generic. > > Further, we > > discuss beforehand when a meeting will be held. Suggest that you propose > > such things. > > > > I'm sorry but English is my second language and I'm afraid I haven't > understood last sentence. We (release team) make various efforts to keep everyone informed. By minutes and discussing beforehand when we meet. Further, we send to devel-announce-list when needed. If one team (#gnome-design) doesn't follow that, you can do various things to actually make things better. A few changes/additions to the way they work to ensure the process is workable for everyone. This e.g. by minutes, agreeing on meeting times, etc. -- Regards, Olav ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: IRC channels in gnome development
On Sun, 2011-02-06 at 02:52 +0100, Olav Vitters wrote: > On Sat, Feb 05, 2011 at 05:25:08PM +, Maciej Piechotka wrote: > > Could there be a recommendation against discussion of important > > decisions on IRC? While I understand that it may slow down process > > probably but it would improve developer-user relationships as well as > > transparency and inclusiveness of process. > > We hold our release-team meetings on IRC and prefer to keep them on IRC. > > However, we make minutes and send them to the mailing list. Great. However: - Which mailing list? There is no gnome-design list listed and on gnome wiki there is only reference to gnome-shell mailing list. I am however nearly sure it is neither d-d-l nor g-s. - Why noone in discussion pointed out the minutes with arguments to complainers? > Further, we > discuss beforehand when a meeting will be held. Suggest that you propose > such things. > I'm sorry but English is my second language and I'm afraid I haven't understood last sentence. Regards signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: IRC channels in gnome development
On Sat, Feb 05, 2011 at 05:25:08PM +, Maciej Piechotka wrote: > Could there be a recommendation against discussion of important > decisions on IRC? While I understand that it may slow down process > probably but it would improve developer-user relationships as well as > transparency and inclusiveness of process. We hold our release-team meetings on IRC and prefer to keep them on IRC. However, we make minutes and send them to the mailing list. Further, we discuss beforehand when a meeting will be held. Suggest that you propose such things. -- Regards, Olav ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: IRC channels in gnome development
On Feb 5, 2011 5:15 PM, "Maciej Macin Piechotka" < maciej.piechotk...@imperial.ac.uk> wrote: > > On 05/02/2011 21:55, Jason D. Clinton wrote: > > (all research that had previously been done by the > > design team). ... > Then show yourdesign team work! http://live.gnome.org/action/info/Design/SystemSettings/Power?action=info ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: IRC channels in gnome development
On 05/02/2011 21:55, Jason D. Clinton wrote: > On Sat, Feb 5, 2011 at 13:43, Maciej Piechotka wrote: >> While it might be a stretch analogy but some people argue in various >> companies (not every company and it may be argued how good the policy >> is) to open the discussion/design process to community (I think I heard >> about Dell, Starbucks and others). Of course it is company who plays the >> role of beneficial dictator in this model nonetheless the consumers may >> be proven to be valuable source of feedback and ideas (even if the need >> to be filtered out). > > You characterized the situation with the power manager as a "crisis" "crisis" was meant to be hyperbolic. > and yet, while your description is more than a little hyperbolic, that > situation demonstrates that precisely what you are asking for is not > productive. There is slight difference between "documenting" result, "documenting" rationale and "documenting" process. > There were a total of four blog posts on the topic and > approximately 200 comments posted to those. There wasn't any negative > feedback on any of those four post's comments that was well researched > or particularly informed about all the issues that need to be > considered. Even people who tried to offer alternatives didn't seem > particularly informed about common use cases or what other operating > systems are doing (all research that had previously been done by the > design team). There was some legitimate concerns expressed, > particularly about why the research shows that AC and on-battery are > the same situation, but that was a tiny minority of the feedback and > not surprisingly, a large majority of this informed discussion > happened on IRC in #gnome-os and #fedora-desktop--not on a mailing > list or blog. > Then show yourdesign team work! All I'm hearing is that research have been done and the issue have been taken into consideration during disussion but I DON'T have any references. I cannot see logs of IRC (at least google is not showing them), blogs does not disclose why the decision was made in such way exactly and why the broken workflows are bad. All I'm hearing is that I'm uninformed. The decision presented on blog is presented as final final - not as a strong proposal (even if technically it is the same there are slight differences in PR). I'm not specialist in UI design - but I cannot even get response to information why my workflow is bad and how did you invision it (say - large backups during night). Basically - it seems that many people have feeling that their needs are being ignored in name of Average Joe and they are asked to leave. I'm *not* saying that the design team have not done their job - but they seems to fail in communicating their rationale to some power users who feel angry. Sure - I might have done research on topic. I might start reading papers or even ask about them on #gnome-shell. I might have been rational But I guess that the discussion would be much less heated if the references were given - humans are not always rational. I proposed the change to have a shift from 180x"Your design ***" to even 10x"Have you considered XYZ?" -> "Yes - read paper ABC" or even just include reference to ABC (give future historians when GNOME will rule the world some sources ;) ). Regards PS. To sum up - I think that community thinks that decision are made with practically closed doors (not everybody can even observe the discussion due to time constraints) and the results are posted as final truths as community is considered too stupid to understand (I'm NOT saying it is true - I'm saying it is the FEELING). It may be even more PR problem then technical one but I believe it is important one anyway. Contrast it with even Linux kernel where Linus is benevolent dictator and while some decisions may be considered controversial there is some discussion in public and loggable media. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: IRC channels in gnome development
On Sat, Feb 5, 2011 at 13:43, Maciej Piechotka wrote: > While it might be a stretch analogy but some people argue in various > companies (not every company and it may be argued how good the policy > is) to open the discussion/design process to community (I think I heard > about Dell, Starbucks and others). Of course it is company who plays the > role of beneficial dictator in this model nonetheless the consumers may > be proven to be valuable source of feedback and ideas (even if the need > to be filtered out). You characterized the situation with the power manager as a "crisis" and yet, while your description is more than a little hyperbolic, that situation demonstrates that precisely what you are asking for is not productive. There were a total of four blog posts on the topic and approximately 200 comments posted to those. There wasn't any negative feedback on any of those four post's comments that was well researched or particularly informed about all the issues that need to be considered. Even people who tried to offer alternatives didn't seem particularly informed about common use cases or what other operating systems are doing (all research that had previously been done by the design team). There was some legitimate concerns expressed, particularly about why the research shows that AC and on-battery are the same situation, but that was a tiny minority of the feedback and not surprisingly, a large majority of this informed discussion happened on IRC in #gnome-os and #fedora-desktop--not on a mailing list or blog. Design is a process which anyone is welcome to get involved in by way of researched proposals, mock-ups, or use-case studies. But asking the design team to post every decision that they make to d-d-l so that they can have the opportunity to be stop-energy-ed by community members who haven't researched or considered the situation, would not be productive. That isn't to say that more wiki documentation couldn't help. Specifically, I need some more documentation to make one of the marketing videos that are upcoming. But I'm not asking for that information so that I can argue about it--I'm not on the design team. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: IRC channels in gnome development
On Sat, 2011-02-05 at 11:43 -0600, Paul Cutler wrote: > You're asking to change the way things have been done for years - > which isn't an argument to not do things that way, but just pointing > it ou. > > However, the GNOME Design team has regular office hours in IRC where > everyone is welcome to come and ask questions - I'm not a designer, > but I don't know what more you can ask for if IRC is going to be used. I believe that the ask/question is not a problem. The problem is that you cannot easily follow the process. I'm not sure about office hours but: - They probably aren't in best timezone for all. Unfortunatly we have around 26 timezones and there is a chance that a) hours are too long and the relevant designer is not present b) they happen to be between 3 am and 5 am (or 10am and 12am) so not everybody can be there to observe the process. It is possible to stay awake one night to ask specific question but it is harder to do it constantly. - They are not widely know. I tried to googled them without success. They aren't in topic. etc. > Development is not a democracy I have never argue to democratise the process. While in politics openness and democracy are considered near synonymous I don't think they necessary are in software development. While it might be a stretch analogy but some people argue in various companies (not every company and it may be argued how good the policy is) to open the discussion/design process to community (I think I heard about Dell, Starbucks and others). Of course it is company who plays the role of beneficial dictator in this model nonetheless the consumers may be proven to be valuable source of feedback and ideas (even if the need to be filtered out). > - and for those who are going to do > get things done, While it is my opinion I detest IRC even for my own projects for the same reasons that are stated - I prefer working in batch mode instead of online mode as I concentrate on one task. Of course I'm not arguing every developer detest (and apparently GNOME design team likes IRC). > discussion via IRC and its immediacy is a powerful > tool. I personally think asking IRC not to be used for "important" > (which is relative) decisions is not realistic. > > Paul While it may be unrealistic it seems that at least some people are surprised that recent UI changes were surprise. Heatedness of debate were not helping but the discussion I've observed (one in blogosphere) was: A: The change . It breaks workflow XYZ. You ***. B: The issue was discussed extensively on IRC. We feel that Average Joe would benefit and workflow XYZ is broken and ***. The unanswered questions: - What exactly was discussed? What were the arguments? - Why workflow XYZ is broken? What should be the workflow be in designers mind?[1] Not using the IRC (or not only IRC) would help as: - Subscription to mailing list is much less consuming then joining IRC channel (low barier to entry -> more real live usage and more informations about users workflows and more possibilities to correct them) - There is something persisting to point at. If anyone asks why decision was made you can point them at specific topic/e-mail in archive. Regards [1] Say the change was that there cannot be double enters in text processor and user complains (s)he cannot finish a page to start another the response may be that (s)he should use break page feature. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: IRC channels in gnome development
On Sat, 2011-02-05 at 11:43 -0600, Paul Cutler wrote: > You're asking to change the way things have been done for years - > which isn't an argument to not do things that way, but just pointing > it ou. > > However, the GNOME Design team has regular office hours in IRC where > everyone is welcome to come and ask questions - I'm not a designer, > but I don't know what more you can ask for if IRC is going to be used. > Development is not a democracy - and for those who are going to do > get things done, discussion via IRC and its immediacy is a powerful > tool. I personally think asking IRC not to be used for "important" > (which is relative) decisions is not realistic. I do not think so. In the past, decisions that were discussed on IRC were informed by mail later or in bugzilla. Just to keep everybody interested in the loop and/or for archive purposes. At some point, we stopped doing it and, IMVVHO, is a bad practice. For instance, it is quite hard to explain and defend a decision when you only know the result (whether you personally agree or disagree). Do not confuse democracy with awareness. -- Germán Póo-Caamaño http://www.gnome.org/~gpoo/ signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: IRC channels in gnome development
You're asking to change the way things have been done for years - which isn't an argument to not do things that way, but just pointing it ou. However, the GNOME Design team has regular office hours in IRC where everyone is welcome to come and ask questions - I'm not a designer, but I don't know what more you can ask for if IRC is going to be used. Development is not a democracy - and for those who are going to do get things done, discussion via IRC and its immediacy is a powerful tool. I personally think asking IRC not to be used for "important" (which is relative) decisions is not realistic. Paul On Sat, Feb 5, 2011 at 11:25 AM, Maciej Piechotka wrote: > IRC channels seems to be used in gnome development. It may be just me > but I believe that recent power setting "crisis" show (I contrast them > to mailing lists): > > - Requires presence. Many people cannot afford being on irc 24/7 - both > developers, potential developers or just interested users. The houres of > the meeting may clash with working hours or other real live constraints. > - Not logged. Sometimes during discussion it was said that something > was discussed extensively on #gnome-design. That is good however there > is no method of figuring out what the arguments where. > - Provides less informations. In e-mails I can do smart things like > marking read/unread, putting into folders to read/to respond/ignore (or > simply - unread: requires action, read: still important, in archive: no > action required). Smart clients can even filter out irrelevant threads > etc. With IRC I cannot do anything except reading it. There is no side > informations and I cannot attach informations. > > Could there be a recommendation against discussion of important > decisions on IRC? While I understand that it may slow down process > probably but it would improve developer-user relationships as well as > transparency and inclusiveness of process. > > Regards > > ___ > desktop-devel-list mailing list > desktop-devel-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list > ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
IRC channels in gnome development
IRC channels seems to be used in gnome development. It may be just me but I believe that recent power setting "crisis" show (I contrast them to mailing lists): - Requires presence. Many people cannot afford being on irc 24/7 - both developers, potential developers or just interested users. The houres of the meeting may clash with working hours or other real live constraints. - Not logged. Sometimes during discussion it was said that something was discussed extensively on #gnome-design. That is good however there is no method of figuring out what the arguments where. - Provides less informations. In e-mails I can do smart things like marking read/unread, putting into folders to read/to respond/ignore (or simply - unread: requires action, read: still important, in archive: no action required). Smart clients can even filter out irrelevant threads etc. With IRC I cannot do anything except reading it. There is no side informations and I cannot attach informations. Could there be a recommendation against discussion of important decisions on IRC? While I understand that it may slow down process probably but it would improve developer-user relationships as well as transparency and inclusiveness of process. Regards signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
