Re: IRC channels in gnome development
Hi, Gendre Sebastien wrote: > Le samedi 05 février 2011 à 11:43 -0600, Paul Cutler a écrit : >> Development is not a democracy > > For a personal project, no. But Gnome is not your personal project, it's > a community project. The light of this, you have a duty of openness to > the whole community. "A community project means exactly what Paul says - it is not a democracy. Your argument is one of the main fallacies circulated about free software - just because the project is free software does not mean that everyone's opinion carries equal weight. You have an array of forums for expressing your opinion, as do I, but in the end of the day, the most important opinion is the one which is expressed in code. > So far I have mostly attended one-way debat with designers. Some people > arrive with good arguments but they are ignored or they receive > ridiculous and/or void cons-arguments. Impossible to have a good debat. I think it is important for designers to have a good productive relationship with some key developers. I think it's important for the designers to be competent, and to have the trust of the developers. And honestly, the opinion of people outside that group carry much less weight. Sure, designers & developers need to avoid presenting plans & products carved in marble, but what you call "good arguments" might not be good arguments to members of the core team of Shell. In the end of the day, changing something which is a core concept of a project probably needs a *lot* of evidence that the change would be a positive one. And for things which are accessory, there would at least need to be a decent level of agreement on a proposed alternative. Changing design should be just as hard and have just as high a bar as proposing a patch for a feature. Cheers, Dave. -- Dave Neary GNOME Foundation member dne...@gnome.org ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: IRC channels in gnome development
On 6 February 2011 12:52, Dave Neary wrote: > Hi, > > Gendre Sebastien wrote: >> Le samedi 05 février 2011 à 11:43 -0600, Paul Cutler a écrit : >>> Development is not a democracy >> >> For a personal project, no. But Gnome is not your personal project, it's >> a community project. The light of this, you have a duty of openness to >> the whole community. > > "A community project means exactly what Paul says - it is not a > democracy. Your argument is one of the main fallacies circulated about > free software - just because the project is free software does not mean > that everyone's opinion carries equal weight. > > You have an array of forums for expressing your opinion, as do I, but in > the end of the day, the most important opinion is the one which is > expressed in code. > >> So far I have mostly attended one-way debat with designers. Some people >> arrive with good arguments but they are ignored or they receive >> ridiculous and/or void cons-arguments. Impossible to have a good debat. > > I think it is important for designers to have a good productive > relationship with some key developers. I think it's important for the > designers to be competent, and to have the trust of the developers. And > honestly, the opinion of people outside that group carry much less weight. > > Sure, designers & developers need to avoid presenting plans & products > carved in marble, but what you call "good arguments" might not be good > arguments to members of the core team of Shell. In the end of the day, > changing something which is a core concept of a project probably needs a > *lot* of evidence that the change would be a positive one. > > And for things which are accessory, there would at least need to be a > decent level of agreement on a proposed alternative. Changing design > should be just as hard and have just as high a bar as proposing a patch > for a feature. > > Cheers, > Dave. > > -- > Dave Neary > GNOME Foundation member > dne...@gnome.org > > ___ > desktop-devel-list mailing list > desktop-devel-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list Guys, for a sake of a sanity. I've been around gnome since pre 2.0 times. And all times up to now we supposed that OSS is about democratic process, where programmers are not told buy big enterprise daddy what to write. Now, you former windows/sco/ibm/sun programmers are coming and saying that is wasn't. Yes, there are some big developers who can steer the way of a project, but nobody up to now just came I said what you have just said! You can't complete your shell if you drop off all the remaining developers of the boat. Shell is already a buggy hell, that will take many months just to stabilize. Now, probably you realize that simply dumping your privately developed project on a community in hope that it will accept and maintain it doesn't work. If you want to have your shell working, just change your position on this matter. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: IRC channels in gnome development
Hi! > Guys, for a sake of a sanity. I've been around gnome since pre 2.0 > times. And all times up to now we supposed that OSS is about > democratic process, where programmers are not told buy big enterprise > daddy what to write. Now, you former windows/sco/ibm/sun programmers > are coming and saying that is wasn't. Yes, there are some big > developers who can steer the way of a project, but nobody up to now > just came I said what you have just said! Hmm, yes the developers code what THEY want and not what a company tells them to do. But that isn't democratic because that still doesn't mean they do what a majority or mailing list posts/non-involved people want. > You can't complete your shell if you drop off all the remaining > developers of the boat. Shell is already a buggy hell, that will take > many months just to stabilize. Now, probably you realize that simply > dumping your privately developed project on a community in hope that > it will accept and maintain it doesn't work. Please don't rant, file bugs if there are things that don't work for you. Regards, Johannes ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: IRC channels in gnome development
On Sat, 2011-02-05 at 18:14 -0600, Jason D. Clinton wrote: > On Feb 5, 2011 5:15 PM, "Maciej Macin Piechotka" > wrote: > > > > On 05/02/2011 21:55, Jason D. Clinton wrote: > > > (all research that had previously been done by the > > > design team). > ... > > Then show yourdesign team work! > > http://live.gnome.org/action/info/Design/SystemSettings/Power?action=info > The discussion part raises interesting points but not relevant to the change that caused most discussion. The only rationale I found is "These are old and wrong:" and "These are more recent:" In various revisions the buttons appeared and disappeared but no rationale was given. Regards [1] That's the first time I have noticed it. Prove: https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=638865 signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: IRC channels in gnome development
On Mon, Feb 07, 2011 at 12:41:59AM -0800, Baybal Ni wrote: > Guys, for a sake of a sanity. I've been around gnome since pre 2.0 > times. And all times up to now we supposed that OSS is about > democratic process, where programmers are not told buy big enterprise General attitude is that it is a meritocracy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meritocracy Or: People who do stuff decide (merits). > daddy what to write. Now, you former windows/sco/ibm/sun programmers > are coming and saying that is wasn't. Yes, there are some big You can do what you want. However, it is still not a democracy. Might not be accepted by a maintainer. > developers who can steer the way of a project, but nobody up to now > just came I said what you have just said! Search for e.g. "meritocracy site:gnome.org". > You can't complete your shell if you drop off all the remaining > developers of the boat. Shell is already a buggy hell, that will take > many months just to stabilize. Now, probably you realize that simply > dumping your privately developed project on a community in hope that > it will accept and maintain it doesn't work. If you read up on meritocracy you'll notice that it is decided by the people who are making it and are maintaining it. -- Regards, Olav ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: IRC channels in gnome development
> Guys, for a sake of a sanity. I've been around gnome since pre 2.0 > times. And all times up to now we supposed that OSS is about > democratic process, where programmers are not told buy big enterprise News to me, and flagship projects like the Linux kernel run on the "Linus is boss" model. The freedom is more fundamental than that. Democracy and similar systems are a workaround for the fact in the physical world I can't do cp -r ourcountry mycountry mv ourcountry/me mycountry/me and continue In Free Software you can, so if a bunch of people don't like the current direction of Gnome they can get involved and change it from within, or they can take a copy with them and work in parallel, either for bits of or for all of the desktop. Freedom to make the decision doesn't extend to freedom to make other people do the work for you or listen to you and this does lead to new branches and ideas being tried out - sometimes becoming the norm (eg the egcs rebellion against gcc process became gcc 3) Alan ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Heads up: gnome-color-manager will need colord for GNOME 3.2
For GNOME 3.2, I would like gnome-color-manager to depend on a new project called colord (also written by myself). colord is a project which aims to be a simple system activated daemon that maps devices to color profiles. colord will be used by CUPS to color manage printers, and connects to various other system devices too. See http://colord.hughsie.com/ for more details. Tarballs can be found here: http://people.freedesktop.org/~hughsient/releases/ Although the code for colord support (colord branch in gnome-color-manager) is 95% functional, it's had zero testing, and so I'm intending to ship a colord-less gnome-color-manager for 3.0. This means color managed printing will have to wait until 3.2 as colord is a prerequisite of that. The CUPS code for colord support (icc branch in cups) isn't quite finished either, so it makes no sense to push this into 3.0 at this stage I know I'm announcing this very ahead of the required time, but I wanted distros to start looking at colord and for super keen distro-people to report any packaging problems early. Feedback / questions welcomed. Thanks. Richard. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: IRC channels in gnome development
On Sun, 2011-02-06 at 21:52 +0100, Dave Neary wrote: > "A community project means exactly what Paul says - it is not a > democracy. Your argument is one of the main fallacies circulated about > free software - just because the project is free software does not mean > that everyone's opinion carries equal weight. > > You have an array of forums for expressing your opinion, as do I, but in > the end of the day, the most important opinion is the one which is > expressed in code. I am the last person to argue against a meritocracy. I'm certain that it's the only model under which Gnome can possibly exist. But this discussion stopped being about code 20 emails ago. Maintainers will inevitably have to say "no" sometimes. There are different ways of doing that. On the one extreme, you can just tell people they're stupid. On the other, you can carefully explain your reasoning each and every time. And there's a whole lot of gray in between. A project like Gnome lives and dies by its community. We have to find the right gray level to keep people enthusiastic about what we're doing. Judging from recent history, I don't think we've found that. -- Shaun ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: IRC channels in gnome development
2011/2/6 Nirbheek Chauhan : > On Sun, Feb 6, 2011 at 7:16 PM, Andreas Nilsson wrote: >> On 02/05/2011 06:25 PM, Maciej Piechotka wrote: >>> >>> IRC channels seems to be used in gnome development. It may be just me >>> but I believe that recent power setting "crisis" show (I contrast them >>> to mailing lists): >>> >>> - Requires presence. Many people cannot afford being on irc 24/7 - both >>> developers, potential developers or just interested users. The houres of >>> the meeting may clash with working hours or other real live constraints. >> >> Yes, IRC has it drawbacks, but it also makes discussing design a lot faster >> and effective than doing it on mailing lists. We need to be time effective >> if we're going to make the April 6th release date. > > Is there a place where IRC logs of discussions from the various > channels can be found? This is even more needed now that closing laptop lid will cause network to be terminated by suspend, ie irc client to loose its connection and therefore logs.. -- Frederic Crozat ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: IRC channels in gnome development
On Sun, 2011-02-06 at 19:19 +0530, Nirbheek Chauhan wrote: > Is there a place where IRC logs of discussions from the various > channels can be found? I am not aware of any automated GimpNet IRC channel logging and publishing. andre -- mailto:ak...@gmx.net | failed http://blogs.gnome.org/aklapper ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: IRC channels in gnome development
On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 12:22 AM, Andre Klapper wrote:
> On Sun, 2011-02-06 at 19:19 +0530, Nirbheek Chauhan wrote:
>> Is there a place where IRC logs of discussions from the various
>> channels can be found?
>
> I am not aware of any automated GimpNet IRC channel logging and
> publishing.
>
It would be very useful to have a bot around which logs conversations
on #gnome-{shell,design,os} et al and puts it up somewhere. A number
of GNOME channels already have bots to manage chanops, those could
probably be put to this use as well, if possible.
To cover the conversations that have already happened; maybe people
can put up their logs of these channels of the past year (or whatever
they have). We can then patch up the various logs to make a full log.
--
~Nirbheek Chauhan
Gentoo GNOME+Mozilla Team
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Re: IRC channels in gnome development
Hi, Shaun McCance wrote: > Maintainers will inevitably have to say "no" sometimes. There are > different ways of doing that. On the one extreme, you can just tell > people they're stupid. On the other, you can carefully explain your > reasoning each and every time. And there's a whole lot of gray in > between. > > A project like Gnome lives and dies by its community. We have to > find the right gray level to keep people enthusiastic about what > we're doing. Judging from recent history, I don't think we've > found that. Agreed. And one way to make saying "no" easier is to be able to point people to conversations where decisions were made. I'm not a fan of important stuff happening on IRC (even when it's logged, to be frank, reading IRC logs to find useful information is painful at the best of times). I have previously discussed with a few people the idea of a publicly archived mailing list with moderated membership for GNOME design (since usability list was considered unusable for the purpose of productive design work by several people I spoke to). A sufficient number of people had a problem with the "moderated membership" part that the idea was a non-starter, but I still like it & think it could work. One piece of feedback I got at the time is "designers just don't use mailing lists". I don't quite buy that, but perhaps people can rebut or confirm here? Cheers, Dave. -- Dave Neary GNOME Foundation member dne...@gnome.org ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: IRC channels in gnome development
Hi Alan, FWIW I mostly like GNOME 3, so I don't want to pile on the flamefest. But this bothered me: On Sun 06 Feb 2011 15:27, Allan Day writes: > Even if you had records of every discussion, you wouldn't get the > information you're looking for. Design decisions don't get made > committee meeting style, and design involves a lot of specialist > background knowledge which doesn't get explicitly referenced. Fact is, > we'll probably never be able to give 100% of the rationale behind design > decisions. The thing is, we've done mostly well in the programming department. If the subtext is this is the case for design in contrast to programming, I would like to disagree; that would be unjust both to programming and to design. Often programming is just as solitary an affair, yet we manage to communicate in such a way that enables collaboration; and surely programmers are not more socially competent than designers ;-) Likewise designers don't work alone. I'm sure you have been one of two or three or six designers sitting at a table hashing things out. In neither profession do things happen "committee meeting style" -- when things go well, of course! -- but there is collaboration. This characterization of design also neglects the great community design work that has been done recently by Máirín, for example, and done to an extent within GNOME. Finally, it's rare that a programmer never does design work, or for a designer never to code at all. We all need pointers and records to figure out how things are done. Of course it's not always possible! But it would be an error not to hold transparency up as a goal, IMO. > It simply isn't true to say that we haven't made an effort to explain > what we're doing. I explained many of the design considerations in my > blog post [1] on this subject, and I did that precisely because I wanted > to help people to be informed. For this, and all your awesome work, thank you! Andy -- http://wingolog.org/ ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: IRC channels in gnome development
On Sun, 2011-02-06 at 14:27 +, Allan Day wrote: > It simply isn't true to say that we haven't made an effort to explain what > we're doing. I explained many of the design considerations in my blog post > [1] on this subject, and I did that precisely because I wanted to help people > to be informed. [snip] > [1] > http://afaikblog.wordpress.com/2011/02/03/on-laptop-lids-and-power-settings/ Regardless of the merits of the specific issue, and while I'm thankful that you are trying: That is an awful attempt at explaining anything. You waffle at great length about the issue, basically just saying that it's better because it's better, and then your actually say that you "won’t for sake of brevity". Sorry, but I can't find a nice way to say that your write poorly. Filling a page with text is not the same as providing information. Hand-waving and waffling is not ultimately convincing. I recommend Strunk and White. I wish I had the time to investigate and write this up properly myself in a concise release-notes style, but I don't. -- murr...@murrayc.com www.murrayc.com www.openismus.com ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: IRC channels in gnome development
"Murray Cumming" wrote: > On Sun, 2011-02-06 at 14:27 +, Allan Day wrote: > > It simply isn't true to say that we haven't made an effort to > > explain what we're doing. I explained many of the design > > considerations in my blog post [1] on this subject, and I did that > > precisely because I wanted to help people to be informed. > [snip] > > [1] > > http://afaikblog.wordpress.com/2011/02/03/on-laptop-lids-and-power-settings/ > > Regardless of the merits of the specific issue, and while I'm thankful > that you are trying: That is an awful attempt at explaining anything. > You waffle at great length about the issue, basically just saying that > it's better because it's better, and then your actually say that you > "won’t for sake of brevity". > > Sorry, but I can't find a nice way to say that your write poorly. > Filling a page with text is not the same as providing information. > Hand-waving and waffling is not ultimately convincing. I recommend > Strunk and White. Murray, It seems to me incredibly unproductive when someone shows up who is actually interested in writing about the GNOME design process to flame them for writing badly (which I find entirely unsubstantiated reading through Alan's post.) The fact we have any good information about the GNOME 3 design targeted at the "general public" is basically due to Alan - e.g., the currently state of https://live.gnome.org/GnomeShell/Design/ is largely his work. If you have questions that weren't answered, of course, ask them! If you have concrete suggestions for additional information that should have been provided, I'm sure that Alan would love to have them. But your message above combines rudeness to an enthusiastic new contributor to GNOME with the same lack of actual content that you accuse Alan of. - Owen ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: IRC channels in gnome development
Yeah, we don't have that sort of service. If you'd like, I can talk with the rest of the crew about putting something together. On Mon, 2011-02-07 at 19:52 +0100, Andre Klapper wrote: > On Sun, 2011-02-06 at 19:19 +0530, Nirbheek Chauhan wrote: > > Is there a place where IRC logs of discussions from the various > > channels can be found? > > I am not aware of any automated GimpNet IRC channel logging and > publishing. > > andre signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: IRC channels in gnome development
On Tue, 2011-02-08 at 01:04 +0530, Nirbheek Chauhan wrote:
> On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 12:22 AM, Andre Klapper wrote:
> > On Sun, 2011-02-06 at 19:19 +0530, Nirbheek Chauhan wrote:
> >> Is there a place where IRC logs of discussions from the various
> >> channels can be found?
> >
> > I am not aware of any automated GimpNet IRC channel logging and
> > publishing.
> >
>
> It would be very useful to have a bot around which logs conversations
> on #gnome-{shell,design,os}
done, done and done.
> et al
You'll have to be more specific.
> and puts it up somewhere.
http://ilbot.colliertech.org/gnome-shell/today
http://ilbot.colliertech.org/gnome-design/today
http://ilbot.colliertech.org/gnome-os/today
> A number
> of GNOME channels already have bots to manage chanops, those could
> probably be put to this use as well, if possible.
Poke me if things go offline. My web server isn't the most stable thing
in the world.
> To cover the conversations that have already happened; maybe people
> can put up their logs of these channels of the past year (or whatever
> they have). We can then patch up the various logs to make a full log.
Let me know when you've got them and I'll post them in the same place.
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Re: IRC channels in gnome development
On Mon, 2011-02-07 at 14:53 -0800, C.J. Adams-Collier wrote: > Yeah, we don't have that sort of service. If you'd like, I can talk > with the rest of the crew about putting something together. Slightly related, HipChat got IRC a step ahead (less geeky, more pleasant and with log recording). I mean, the concept not the product. http://www.hipchat.com/ (Just in case there is somebody interested in working in something like this :-) > On Mon, 2011-02-07 at 19:52 +0100, Andre Klapper wrote: > > On Sun, 2011-02-06 at 19:19 +0530, Nirbheek Chauhan wrote: > > > Is there a place where IRC logs of discussions from the various > > > channels can be found? > > > > I am not aware of any automated GimpNet IRC channel logging and > > publishing. > > > > andre -- Germán Póo-Caamaño http://www.gnome.org/~gpoo/ signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: IRC channels in gnome development
Hi,
On Mon, Feb 7, 2011 at 5:58 PM, C.J. Adams-Collier wrote:
> On Tue, 2011-02-08 at 01:04 +0530, Nirbheek Chauhan wrote:
>> On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 12:22 AM, Andre Klapper wrote:
>> > On Sun, 2011-02-06 at 19:19 +0530, Nirbheek Chauhan wrote:
>> >> Is there a place where IRC logs of discussions from the various
>> >> channels can be found?
>> >
>> > I am not aware of any automated GimpNet IRC channel logging and
>> > publishing.
>> >
>>
>> It would be very useful to have a bot around which logs conversations
>> on #gnome-{shell,design,os}
>
> done, done and done.
>
>> et al
>
> You'll have to be more specific.
>
>> and puts it up somewhere.
>
> http://ilbot.colliertech.org/gnome-shell/today
> http://ilbot.colliertech.org/gnome-design/today
> http://ilbot.colliertech.org/gnome-os/today
>
>
>> A number
>> of GNOME channels already have bots to manage chanops, those could
>> probably be put to this use as well, if possible.
>
> Poke me if things go offline. My web server isn't the most stable thing
> in the world.
>
>> To cover the conversations that have already happened; maybe people
>> can put up their logs of these channels of the past year (or whatever
>> they have). We can then patch up the various logs to make a full log.
>
> Let me know when you've got them and I'll post them in the same place.
bebot has been logging for some time. I'd prefer it if we have only
one mechanism in place. We haven't had a chance to figure out what to
do with the logs (including where to post them, how to present them,
and how to search them). Another issue is that I want to ensure that
it is well known that the channels are logged (I consider it impolite
to post logs from folks that don't know they are being logged) and
that we make some assurance that sensitive information doesn't
accidentally get published (at least until you can change that
password you accidentally typed into IRC).
Would you mind disabling your bot until we do that?
Thanks,
Jon
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Re: IRC channels in gnome development
On Mon, 2011-02-07 at 18:37 -0500, William Jon McCann wrote:
> Hi,
Howdy!
> On Mon, Feb 7, 2011 at 5:58 PM, C.J. Adams-Collier
> wrote:
> > On Tue, 2011-02-08 at 01:04 +0530, Nirbheek Chauhan wrote:
> >> On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 12:22 AM, Andre Klapper wrote:
> >> > On Sun, 2011-02-06 at 19:19 +0530, Nirbheek Chauhan wrote:
> >> >> Is there a place where IRC logs of discussions from the various
> >> >> channels can be found?
> >> >
> >> > I am not aware of any automated GimpNet IRC channel logging and
> >> > publishing.
> >> >
> >>
> >> It would be very useful to have a bot around which logs conversations
> >> on #gnome-{shell,design,os}
> >
> > done, done and done.
> >
> >> et al
> >
> > You'll have to be more specific.
> >
> >> and puts it up somewhere.
> >
> > http://ilbot.colliertech.org/gnome-shell/today
> > http://ilbot.colliertech.org/gnome-design/today
> > http://ilbot.colliertech.org/gnome-os/today
> >
> >
> >> A number
> >> of GNOME channels already have bots to manage chanops, those could
> >> probably be put to this use as well, if possible.
> >
> > Poke me if things go offline. My web server isn't the most stable thing
> > in the world.
> >
> >> To cover the conversations that have already happened; maybe people
> >> can put up their logs of these channels of the past year (or whatever
> >> they have). We can then patch up the various logs to make a full log.
> >
> > Let me know when you've got them and I'll post them in the same place.
>
> bebot has been logging for some time. I'd prefer it if we have only
> one mechanism in place. We haven't had a chance to figure out what to
> do with the logs (including where to post them, how to present them,
> and how to search them). Another issue is that I want to ensure that
> it is well known that the channels are logged (I consider it impolite
> to post logs from folks that don't know they are being logged) and
> that we make some assurance that sensitive information doesn't
> accidentally get published (at least until you can change that
> password you accidentally typed into IRC).
>
> Would you mind disabling your bot until we do that?
>
> Thanks,
> Jon
From one of my fellow gimpnet IRC operators:
16:28 < CyBeR> cj: you should inform them that we (gimpnet) have no logging
service nor the intent to create one
16:28 < CyBeR> cj: and that open (as in, not +i or +k) channels should be
regarded as public
16:29 < CyBeR> and one should assume one's writings are logged and public when
conversing in one
That said, I'll put on my GNOME Foundation member hat and say that I'm
willing to help develop a logging facility for channels that the
foundation considers part of the core infrastructure.
Cheers,
C.J.
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Re: IRC channels in gnome development
On Mon, Feb 7, 2011 at 5:36 PM, C.J. Adams-Collier wrote:
>
> On Mon, 2011-02-07 at 18:37 -0500, William Jon McCann wrote:
>> Hi,
>
> Howdy!
>
>> On Mon, Feb 7, 2011 at 5:58 PM, C.J. Adams-Collier
>> wrote:
>> > On Tue, 2011-02-08 at 01:04 +0530, Nirbheek Chauhan wrote:
>> >> On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 12:22 AM, Andre Klapper wrote:
>> >> > On Sun, 2011-02-06 at 19:19 +0530, Nirbheek Chauhan wrote:
>> >> >> Is there a place where IRC logs of discussions from the various
>> >> >> channels can be found?
>> >> >
>> >> > I am not aware of any automated GimpNet IRC channel logging and
>> >> > publishing.
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> It would be very useful to have a bot around which logs conversations
>> >> on #gnome-{shell,design,os}
>> >
>> > done, done and done.
>> >
>> >> et al
>> >
>> > You'll have to be more specific.
>> >
>> >> and puts it up somewhere.
>> >
>> > http://ilbot.colliertech.org/gnome-shell/today
>> > http://ilbot.colliertech.org/gnome-design/today
>> > http://ilbot.colliertech.org/gnome-os/today
>> >
>> >
>> >> A number
>> >> of GNOME channels already have bots to manage chanops, those could
>> >> probably be put to this use as well, if possible.
>> >
>> > Poke me if things go offline. My web server isn't the most stable thing
>> > in the world.
>> >
>> >> To cover the conversations that have already happened; maybe people
>> >> can put up their logs of these channels of the past year (or whatever
>> >> they have). We can then patch up the various logs to make a full log.
>> >
>> > Let me know when you've got them and I'll post them in the same place.
>>
>> bebot has been logging for some time. I'd prefer it if we have only
>> one mechanism in place. We haven't had a chance to figure out what to
>> do with the logs (including where to post them, how to present them,
>> and how to search them). Another issue is that I want to ensure that
>> it is well known that the channels are logged (I consider it impolite
>> to post logs from folks that don't know they are being logged) and
>> that we make some assurance that sensitive information doesn't
>> accidentally get published (at least until you can change that
>> password you accidentally typed into IRC).
>>
>> Would you mind disabling your bot until we do that?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Jon
>
> From one of my fellow gimpnet IRC operators:
>
> 16:28 < CyBeR> cj: you should inform them that we (gimpnet) have no logging
> service nor the intent to create one
> 16:28 < CyBeR> cj: and that open (as in, not +i or +k) channels should be
> regarded as public
> 16:29 < CyBeR> and one should assume one's writings are logged and public when
> conversing in one
>
> That said, I'll put on my GNOME Foundation member hat and say that I'm
> willing to help develop a logging facility for channels that the
> foundation considers part of the core infrastructure.
You would probably need multiple bots to fill the needs of the GNOME
community. Gimpnet has a fairly low max join limit, iirc.
I'd definitely be interested in this. One of the main reasons I run
irssi on my server is so that I have logs of channels that matter to
me.
BTW, combining this with an op bot like Rupert would be nice.
Sandy
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