Re: gnome 3
Le dimanche 17 avril 2011 à 00:13 +0200, Johannes Schmid a écrit : > Other than that, use gnome-tweak-tool to have a "Power Off..." > option and control suspend behaviour. The problem is not for me, I know how to change a GSettings setting. I’m worried about our users. I’m really not thrilled at all with the gnome-tweak-tool idea. Either the setting can be changed for regular use, and it should be in the control center, either it should not. The cr*ptool is only useful for a minority of users who will have the idea to launch it. Cheers, -- .''`. Josselin Mouette : :' : `. `' “If you behave this way because you are blackmailed by someone, `-[…] I will see what I can do for you.” -- Jörg Schilling signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: gnome 3
On Sun, Apr 17, 2011 at 4:15 AM, Nirbheek Chauhan wrote: > On Sun, Apr 17, 2011 at 3:41 AM, Josselin Mouette wrote: >> Le jeudi 14 avril 2011 à 05:17 -0400, Jasper St. Pierre a écrit : >>> Other people want it because suspend doesn't work on their hardware. >>> Adding a configuration option is just putting wallpaper over the >>> cracked wall; the real solution is to fix suspend. >> >> I’m sorry but I don’t buy this. Suspend is among the things that have >> always been broken, mostly because of broken BIOSes. As long as we don’t >> have control over the hardware, we can’t be sure it works. >> > > You're absolutely right. This is precisely the reason why Apple is > able to ship quality OSes that boot fast, work as expected, and give > excellent performance (iOS and OS X). OTOH, my own machine has a > partially-working suspend because the media keys stop working on > resume[1]. > > This is why I think GNOME should start a marketing campaign of > "Awesome Hardware" which is known to work flawlessly, and "Sadface > Hardware" which is known to work, but with glitches. This can help > users make informed choices while buying machines (or building them), > and would help us improve hardware support for Linux as well. In most > cases, it's just the last 1% that's left. > > This is quite similar to the wireless hardware whitelists/blacklists > that we've been using for a while. > >>> And in the meantime, the wallpaper should be to detect suspend works >>> as intended, and do something else if you can't. >> >> How can it detect that? There are just way too many ways it can fail. >> Some machines will suspend but never resume. Some will resume but in a >> wrong state. At that moment it’s too late to detect that suspend doesn’t >> work. (And if you are talking about a whitelist/blacklist, then think of >> its maintenance too.) >> >> Even worse than the “suspend on lid close” behavior, is the idea to >> suspend instead of shutting down. Computers are not all laptops, some of >> them require to be unplugged sometimes. Laptops are not all used >> everyday; they do not last more than 2 days in suspend mode. > > I honestly think that the solution to this problem is suspend-hybrid > support[2]. Write hibernate image to swap, then turn off disk and > suspend to ram. That way if you pull the plug or the laptop battery > dies, the machine just resumes on boot, and you don't lost any of your > work. This is precisely what Apple already does. > >> Add to that >> the need to reboot to install kernel updates. >> > > I think this would be handled via PackageKit integration — you get > prompted to reboot/relogin when an update is installed that needs such > a thing. > >> You need to take into account that the vast majority of our users use >> PC-class hardware. And you might not like it, but with such hardware >> they need to learn the difference between reboot, shutdown and suspend. >> It’s true that it should not be the case, but if you want to fix that >> you should develop hardware, not software. > > As I said above, if we get suspend-hybrid support added to the kernel, > computers that run directly off AC mains are covered as well. I've been watching this discussion with increasing disappointment. Suspend and hibernate are both hacks around the fact that power on and power off take a long time and that our session manager doesn't save session state. Lots of progress is being made on system boot up time, it's improved massively in the last few years in various distros and more cool stuff is still to come. There are movements towards replacing the ancient PC BIOS as well. And the next version of OSX contains "Resume" - which saves the session between restarts. Let's do our batteries a favour and concentrate on the real problems, rather than creating an increasingly complex set of workarounds. The correct use case for any electronic device is power on when using it, power off when not. Sam ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: gnome 3
> Suspend and hibernate are both hacks around the fact that power on and > power off take a long time and that our session manager doesn't save > session state. > > The correct use case for any electronic device is power on when using it, > power off when not. > I couldn't agree any more. The default behaviour should be shut-down/restart. Lots of progress is being made on system boot up time, it's improved > massively in the last few years in various distros and more cool stuff > is still to come. There are movements towards replacing the ancient PC > BIOS as well. And the next version of OSX contains "Resume" - which > saves the session between restarts. > This will be awesome if can have this behaviour. When starting the computer user can select between 'resume' and 'new session'. Can we not write the session data to the disk and access it on next boot? Justin ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: gnome 3
El dom, 17-04-2011 a las 00:13 +0200, Johannes Schmid escribió: > Can you move that discussion to > https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=643457 > please? Other than that, use gnome-tweak-tool to have a "Power Off..." > option and control suspend behaviour. > > Thanks, > Johannes > > ___ > desktop-devel-list mailing list > desktop-devel-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list Regarding gnome-tweak-tool, is it able to enable settings system-wide? Or, is that feature even planned for the future? Thanks a lot for the information :-) signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: gnome 3
On Sun, Apr 17, 2011 at 11:19, Sam Thursfield wrote: > I've been watching this discussion with increasing disappointment. > Suspend and hibernate are both hacks around the fact that power on and > power off take a long time and that our session manager doesn't save > session state. > > Lots of progress is being made on system boot up time, it's improved > massively in the last few years in various distros and more cool stuff > is still to come. There are movements towards replacing the ancient PC > BIOS as well. And the next version of OSX contains "Resume" - which > saves the session between restarts. > > Let's do our batteries a favour and concentrate on the real problems, > rather than creating an increasingly complex set of workarounds. The > correct use case for any electronic device is power on when using it, > power off when not. It's more than that (unless I'm lost in the discussion)... One example: when you have a desktop setup, with a whole bunch of terminals open, some with chroot running, it's far faster to just Suspend/Hibernate than to reboot and then having to setup all of that again. That's one of the reasons why Suspend/Hibernate is such a great invention. Even if the system booted in half a second, it takes longer to get to previous working state. Luckily the browsers save previous state (automatic), and so does gnome-session (via a setting that some people wouldn't know of), so that's two less thing to worry. There's ways to do this with gnome-terminal, but it's hard to set it up (one must know shells a little more intimately than is willing). I don't know about other terminals. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: gnome 3
Sam Thursfield a écrit: > Suspend and hibernate are both hacks around the fact that power on and > power off take a long time and that our session manager doesn't save > session state. This seems to be an over-simplification to me. Processes managed by the session manager are just a part of what comprises the user's working set. And of course, there are users who use things that are independent of a particular session manager. In other words, the scope of the feature which purpose is to save the global working set of a user is by essence broader than just the one of "our session manager". -- Dodji ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: gnome 3
On Sun, Apr 17, 2011 at 12:54 PM, Dodji Seketeli wrote: > Sam Thursfield a écrit: > >> Suspend and hibernate are both hacks around the fact that power on and >> power off take a long time and that our session manager doesn't save >> session state. > > This seems to be an over-simplification to me. Processes managed by the > session manager are just a part of what comprises the user's working > set. And of course, there are users who use things that are independent > of a particular session manager. In other words, the scope of the > feature which purpose is to save the global working set of a user is by > essence broader than just the one of "our session manager". A very good point. What I should have said here is that neither the session manager nor (most) apps manage to preserve state across sessions. Firefox is a great example here and I actually depend quite a lot on its behaviour these days (keeping tabs open as todo items etc). Bringing this to other apps would be a win for everyone anyway, regardless of also improving the power on/off situation. Sam ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: SoC idea: desktop file cache
Le Fri, 15 Apr 2011 15:18:47 -0400, Colin Walters a écrit : > On Mon, Mar 28, 2011 at 4:07 AM, Martyn Russell > wrote: > > > > Sounds like a god idea. > > I try to be modest, but it's hard to turn down deification... > > > At this point, I would like to just mention that Tracker already > > mines applications and it is REALLY fast at this. > > My first reaction is fear here honestly - part of that is that SPARQL > and RDF ontologies are just not something I live and breathe... Understandable, and we'd need in any case a fallback mechanism for if Tracker is not installed. > > But when you say "mines applications", you mean it parses the .desktop > files and it's generating some index on the Name fields or something? The application miner parses desktop files, and inserts them in the Tracker database, which has an ontology (data model) for applications. Information extracted includes name, description, category, icon path and command line. > > Can you point me to some code? Sure, see http://git.gnome.org/browse/tracker/tree/src/miners/fs/tracker-miner-applications.c Cheers Adrien > ___ > desktop-devel-list mailing list > desktop-devel-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: gnome 3
On Sun, 2011-04-17 at 12:50 +0200, Pacho Ramos wrote: > Regarding gnome-tweak-tool, is it able to enable settings system-wide? > Or, is that feature even planned for the future? https://live.gnome.org/GnomeTweakTool andre -- mailto:ak...@gmx.net | failed http://blogs.gnome.org/aklapper | http://www.openismus.com ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: gnome 3
> > The correct use case for any electronic device is power on when using it, > > power off when not. > I couldn't agree any more. The default behaviour should be > shut-down/restart. In the suspend case there are very good reasons for not wanting the user to think they have powered off and get a nasty surprise like overheating but in the hibernate case the device *is* off. The system state is committed to disk and the power is killed. Using suspend when a laptop is being moved also violates many companies security policies because it's rather too easy to extract data from such a system. If it's stolen when using hibernate + encryption it is pretty safe. So you don't want to muddle suspend and hibernate + poweroff. > This will be awesome if can have this behaviour. When starting the computer > user can select between 'resume' and 'new session'. Can we not write the > session data to the disk and access it on next boot? It's called "hibernate". Most electronica comes back on in roughly the state you turned it off. You want a real "power off" as well to recover from nasty situations but that is "discard the hibernate session" The other big nasty to beware of though is removable media. A hibernated system has not necessarily left removable media in a state they are unmounted. That is going to be an expectation the desktop needs to properly manage. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: gnome 3
El dom, 17-04-2011 a las 22:47 +0200, Andre Klapper escribió: > On Sun, 2011-04-17 at 12:50 +0200, Pacho Ramos wrote: > > Regarding gnome-tweak-tool, is it able to enable settings system-wide? > > Or, is that feature even planned for the future? > > https://live.gnome.org/GnomeTweakTool > > andre Maybe I am missing something in that webpage but I cannot see anything related with the ability to set global default settings (using polkit for example) Thanks for your help signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: gnome 3
hi; On 17 April 2011 23:31, Pacho Ramos wrote: > El dom, 17-04-2011 a las 22:47 +0200, Andre Klapper escribió: >> On Sun, 2011-04-17 at 12:50 +0200, Pacho Ramos wrote: >> > Regarding gnome-tweak-tool, is it able to enable settings system-wide? >> > Or, is that feature even planned for the future? >> >> https://live.gnome.org/GnomeTweakTool >> >> andre > > Maybe I am missing something in that webpage but I cannot see anything > related with the ability to set global default settings (using polkit > for example) gnome-tweak-tool is a user tool, not a system administrator tool. for sysadmins you probably want to look at GSettings and DConf, e.g.: http://live.gnome.org/dconf/SystemAdminstrators ciao, Emmanuele. -- W: http://www.emmanuelebassi.name B: http://blogs.gnome.org/ebassi/ ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Planning features for 3.2
On Thu, Apr 7, 2011 at 4:32 AM, Frederic Peters wrote: > Hello all, > > Have you partied enough already? Are you eager to start tackling 3.2? > > If we follow our usual schedule, we will have 3.1.1 in one month. > > Instead of hurrying back to our tools I'd like to propose to spend > some of the month planning for features, especially in the areas where > cross module cooperation is required. > > From Matthias email and others I started assembling a very > minimalistic list of potential features, > > http://live.gnome.org/ThreePointOne/Features > > The pages are currently mostly empty shells, there are currently four > sections, "description", "involved parties", "current status", and > "how to help"; certainly people with experience from working on the > Fedora feature pages, or the Ubuntu blueprints, will have ideas and > can restructure those. > > Of course you are also free to add new pages, but do note this is not > a "brainstorm"-type place, in fact I think at some point we will want > to "freeze" the set of features (but when? in one month?). > > I believe it is really important to get on it soon, to assemble teams, > with people from the different projects, designers & developers; we > are still using a six month schedule, this doesn't give us a lot of > time... So please go on those pages, and if you feel concerned by a > particular feature, go and edit it. Hey again, we've briefly discussed feature planning at todays release team meeting, and while the details are still being worked out and written down, the highlights are: - This feature planning is mainly aimed at the core desktop. Ie if the feature requires changes to the shell and/or new control-center panels, it is likely something we want to track here; if it is just a new dialog in an application, probably not. - We hope to have a clear idea of the features planned for 3.2 by the time of the 3.1.1 release, ie in mid-May. 'Clear idea' means at least some designer input on the user experience, and a rough plan for what technologies will be used to implement it. - All major features should have 'owners'. This is not meant to imply exclusive control, but rather having a person (or persons) who feels responsible for driving the feature forward. I have added 'Owner' sections to the feature pages - note that some are still unowned and up for grabs. Matthias ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
