Re: Be respectful and considerate. A complaint.

[Ma Xiaojun]

I didn't know it is called "Extra Pane".

But F3 magic even work on CentOS 5.
So I wonder is it a really 2.30+ stuff?
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Re: Be respectful and considerate. A complaint.

[Luc Pionchon]

On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 12:12 AM, Andreas Nilsson  wrote:

> For reference, here is the extra pane functionality in Nautilus:
> http://andreasn.myownb3.com/temp/nau-extra-pane.png
>
> And here is the same feature, but at the window manager level (and for all
> the other apps too):
> http://andreasn.myownb3.com/temp/nau-side-by-side.png
>
> Same thing, just on a different level and now desktop-wide.

It is probably not the same thing on a large screen.

It would help to rationalize the design discussions if there would be
a definition of
- the target users
- the target platforms
- the use cases

then design can be tested, and regressions can be caught.


I can help in this if there is interest.
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Re: Be respectful and considerate. A complaint.

[Tomasz Torcz]

On Mon, Jul 02, 2012 at 11:12:36PM +0200, Andreas Nilsson wrote:
> On 07/02/2012 10:34 PM, Holger Berndt wrote:
> >I was baffled to see the extra pane feature from Nautilus
> >silently removed.
> 
> Same thing, just on a different level and now desktop-wide.

  Not quite, you have to do some extra clicks to hide Tree/Places/... left pane
on right-side window.  And then restore it after you finished multi-pane
operation.

-- 
Tomasz Torcz   ,,(...) today's high-end is tomorrow's embedded processor.''
xmpp: zdzich...@chrome.pl  -- Mitchell Blank on LKML

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Re: Be respectful and considerate. A complaint.

[Holger Berndt]

On Di, 03.07.2012 00:20, John Stowers wrote:

>> And here is the same feature, but at the window manager level (and for all
>> the other apps too):
>> http://andreasn.myownb3.com/temp/nau-side-by-side.png
>>
>> Same thing, just on a different level and now desktop-wide.
>
>Not quite.
>
>With split planes
>
>select complex combination of files with ctrl -> right click -> move
>to other pane. Unless this feature appears nautilus wide (right click
>-> move to ) this represents a
>usability loss for me.

Exactly. Split-view is NOT a workaround for window manager limitations.
If it was, I would have proposed a patch to the window manager, not to
Nautilus.

Split-view introduces the concept of "source and target". The two panes
are inherently connected, and are not two random unrelated windows
displayed side-by-side.

This introduces the possibility to have single menu items for copy/move
operations, as you mention. Or, in combination with the recently
removed but fortunately re-accepted can-change-accel functionality,
single button press file moves.

Another feature is that the relation between the panes can also be
used within Nautilus Scripts. I have a trivial single-key-press diff
script which just "diffs the right thing" according to the
current selection (be it two files in a common directory, two files in
two distinct directories, or two locations). It helps me to work. A lot.

Holger
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Re: Be respectful and considerate. A complaint.

[Luca Ferretti]

2012/7/3 Jasper St. Pierre 

>
> You linked the same bug twice.
>
>
Doh, my bad. They was "Don't show a titlebar when maximized" and "Migrate
menu bar to a view menu button", but it seems both (and more) was reported
on the same bug.
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Re: Be respectful and considerate. A complaint.

[Luca Ferretti]

2012/7/3 Luca Ferretti 

> 2012/7/2 Andreas Nilsson 
>
>>
>> And here is the same feature, but at the window manager level (and for
>> all the other apps too):
>> http://andreasn.myownb3.com/**temp/nau-side-by-side.png
>>
>>
> 
>

This is the latest available:
http://people.gnome.org/~lferrett/img/side-by-side.png
(and yes, the "fake split" of course works only in half-fullscreen
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Re: Be respectful and considerate. A complaint.

[Jasper St. Pierre]

On Mon, Jul 2, 2012 at 7:06 PM, Luca Ferretti  wrote:
> 2012/7/2 Andreas Nilsson 
>>
>>
>> And here is the same feature, but at the window manager level (and for all
>> the other apps too):
>> http://andreasn.myownb3.com/temp/nau-side-by-side.png
>>
>
> Unfortunately this is already old :)
>
> https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=676531
> https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=679278
> https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=676531
> -- or see http://git.gnome.org/browse/nautilus

You linked the same bug twice.

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-- 
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Re: Be respectful and considerate. A complaint.

[Luca Ferretti]

2012/7/2 Andreas Nilsson 

>
> And here is the same feature, but at the window manager level (and for all
> the other apps too):
> http://andreasn.myownb3.com/**temp/nau-side-by-side.png
>
>
Unfortunately this is already old :)

https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=676531
https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=679278
https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=676531
-- or see http://git.gnome.org/browse/nautilus
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Re: Be respectful and considerate. A complaint.

[John Stowers]

>
> And here is the same feature, but at the window manager level (and for all
> the other apps too):
> http://andreasn.myownb3.com/temp/nau-side-by-side.png
>
> Same thing, just on a different level and now desktop-wide.

Not quite.

With split planes

select complex combination of files with ctrl -> right click -> move
to other pane. Unless this feature appears nautilus wide (right click
-> move to ) this represents a
usability loss for me.

John
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Re: Be respectful and considerate. A complaint.

[Dylan McCall]

On Mon, Jul 2, 2012 at 2:12 PM, Andreas Nilsson  wrote:
> For reference, here is the extra pane functionality in Nautilus:
> http://andreasn.myownb3.com/temp/nau-extra-pane.png
>
> And here is the same feature, but at the window manager level (and for all
> the other apps too):
> http://andreasn.myownb3.com/temp/nau-side-by-side.png
>
> Same thing, just on a different level and now desktop-wide.

Thanks for posting that. It's a really interesting comparison :)

There are just a few things we could do with split-view Nautilus that
we cannot (currently) do with the window manager:
1. Resize the two panes.
2. Do this with a movable, unmaximized window. (Eg: do this reasonably
on a large screen).
3. Enable split view with a single keystroke.

For #1, I think that is something the window manager could totally do.
Chrome OS currently does the same and it's been pretty well regarded,
and it can't be _that_ hard to implement. (Is it?).

#2 wouldn't be unheard of from a WM level, either, though it might be
a little tricky to get right. Haiku OS has a really interesting window
manager with this type of functionality:
http://www.haiku-os.org/docs/userguide/en/gui.html.

#3 is arguably not _too_ different here. You can get a split view with
Super+Left, Ctrl+N, and Super+R (for the new window). That isn't
discoverable, though, and it certainly won't be shown as "View extra
pane" in a nice menu somewhere.

So, I think your example shows where there's a good opportunity to
make the GNOME platform amazing to develop on. For a developer, it
would be brilliant to just get all kinds of view management features
for free after doing some basic multi-window stuff. (Android's
Fragments API is perhaps good inspiration here). But, as much as I
love the 'let the window manager take care of it' approach, right now
the user experience is losing out. Applications tend to be completely
subservient to the window manager, and the window manager knows very
little about applications. (Definitely improved in GNOME Shell, but
it's still fairly limited).

>From the WM level, I'm pretty sure we can't do F3 to get split
Nautilus windows in any reasonable way. (We don't know if an app will
support that, and we can't tell an app to open a window just like its
current one). But perhaps that be done with a helpful function in an
API somewhere. For any application where split view would make sense,
it could use that API call and tie it to a menu item with F3 as an
agreed-upon keyboard shortcut. So for the end user split view in
Nautilus could be initiated just like it is now, but for a developer
it would dead easy.

Okay, rambling over.

Dylan
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Re: Be respectful and considerate. A complaint.

[Jason Simanek]

On Mon, Jul 2, 2012 at 4:52 PM, Jasper St. Pierre  wrote:
> This has been a part of GNOME since 3.2. Just drag the window to
> either side of the screen. In GNOME 3.4, you can hit Left, or
> Right.

Oh. So is this just fullscreen only? Yeah, that's not what I thought
you were showing me. I thought you were saying we would be able to
stick two windows to each other side-by-side.

If this feature is only available if the two windows in question cover
the entire desktop space, it's not very useful.

At this point, I have to ask: Is the new Gnome intended to be
laptop-only? For large desktop displays and multiple display
environments these kinds of use-case scenarios are completely
impractical.
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Re: Be respectful and considerate. A complaint.

[Florian Müllner]

On Jul 2, 2012 11:52 PM, "Jasper St. Pierre"  wrote:
> This has been a part of GNOME since 3.2.

3.0 actually.

Florian
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Re: Be respectful and considerate. A complaint.

[Jasper St. Pierre]

On Mon, Jul 2, 2012 at 5:49 PM, Jason Simanek  wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 2, 2012 at 4:12 PM, Andreas Nilsson  wrote:
>> And here is the same feature, but at the window manager level (and for all
>> the other apps too):
>> http://andreasn.myownb3.com/temp/nau-side-by-side.png
>>
>> Same thing, just on a different level and now desktop-wide.
>
> OK. All windows will be able to do that? That's awesome.

This has been a part of GNOME since 3.2. Just drag the window to
either side of the screen. In GNOME 3.4, you can hit Left, or
Right.

> A slightly edited quote from Pulp Fiction seems appropriate: “You
> called The Wolf? That’s all you had to say!”
>
> Well done and thank you!
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-- 
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Re: Be respectful and considerate. A complaint.

[Jason Simanek]

On Mon, Jul 2, 2012 at 4:12 PM, Andreas Nilsson  wrote:
> And here is the same feature, but at the window manager level (and for all
> the other apps too):
> http://andreasn.myownb3.com/temp/nau-side-by-side.png
>
> Same thing, just on a different level and now desktop-wide.

OK. All windows will be able to do that? That's awesome.

A slightly edited quote from Pulp Fiction seems appropriate: “You
called The Wolf? That’s all you had to say!”

Well done and thank you!
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Re: Be respectful and considerate. A complaint.

[Andreas Nilsson]

On 07/02/2012 10:34 PM, Holger Berndt wrote:

I was baffled to see the extra pane feature from Nautilus
silently removed.

The story of this feature has a lot to do with communication and
respect, and sadly enough, this mail is an addendum to other recent
and not-so-recent topics on this list - so it fits better here than on
Nautilus' ML.
(I did read your entire e-mail and agree that a heads up on big ui 
changes are a good thing, but I just wanted to add an angle on the 
things-are-going-away-and-this-is-the-apocalypse-discussion)


For reference, here is the extra pane functionality in Nautilus:
http://andreasn.myownb3.com/temp/nau-extra-pane.png

And here is the same feature, but at the window manager level (and for 
all the other apps too):

http://andreasn.myownb3.com/temp/nau-side-by-side.png

Same thing, just on a different level and now desktop-wide.

I wanted to talk about this on Nautilus-list really, and all respect to 
the former and current Nautilus maintainers, but that app have become 
really, really weird in the last couple of releases with a lot of odd 
bugs surrounding the many different view modes and especially the 
combination of them. I'm happy someone have started looking into 
untangling that.

- Andreas
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Re: Be respectful and considerate. A complaint.

[Jason Simanek]

On Mon, Jul 2, 2012 at 3:34 PM, Holger Berndt  wrote:
> But now that the design team managed to remove this feature after all,
> silently, without a remotely comparable public discussion like it
> underwent before going in, I wonder if that's the way the GNOME community
> really wants to work and treat one another.

But we JUST GOT the long-awaited split-view feature. And it's so
useful. And now you've removed it?

Say it ain’t so!
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Be respectful and considerate. A complaint.

[Holger Berndt]

I was baffled to see the extra pane feature from Nautilus
silently removed.

The story of this feature has a lot to do with communication and
respect, and sadly enough, this mail is an addendum to other recent
and not-so-recent topics on this list - so it fits better here than on
Nautilus' ML.

I always wanted a split-view mode in Nautilus, so some time ago I did
a design and proposed a patch on the nautilus mailing list. Various
aspects were discussed, ranging from "Why is this useful?" to
implementation details. After a few discussion / redesign loop iterations
during the following 10 months it was finally merged and anounced in
GNOME's 2.30 release notes. Many reviews of that release mentioned that
feature prominently and favorably, and I got lots of positive user
feedback.

What also came along was my first encounter with the design team - and
it was not a pleasant one. Interestingly, it only took place _after_ all
discussions and after the merge.

Appearantly, they had a UX hackfest. That they didn't follow the
discussion was pretty obvious (as certain false claims that they
repeated were in fact discussed), but that didn't stop them to post
their "results" on Planet GNOME-aggregated blogs.

I wouldn't treat contributors that I don't know personally like that -
but hey, I guess name-calling their work as "total crack rock" is just how
the internet works.

However, if people spread accusations like "messy code - extra pain" on
a widely visible forum like planet GNOME [1] and don't answer my
repeated questions what's messy about it then that's not a discussion
anymore. It's also not criticism. It's outright slander.

But hey, I wasn't bitter. I thought "Talk is cheap, show me the code".

But now that the design team managed to remove this feature after all,
silently, without a remotely comparable public discussion like it
underwent before going in, I wonder if that's the way the GNOME community
really wants to work and treat one another.

Holger

[1] http://www.flickr.com/photos/mairin/4382707014/in/set-72157623492365266/
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