Re: GNOME 3.1.90 beta released!
Am 01.09.2011 11:34, schrieb Frederic Peters: Hello all, This is 3.1.90, and it's out! It's the first beta of what will be GNOME 3.2, enjoy it while it's time, the next beta (3.1.91) will arrive next week. I saw this in the release notes of gnome-control-center: "Power: - Remove power and suspend buttons config (Bastien Nocera) (#652183) (#657068)" I am sad. I know that the GNOME design team has its reasons to promote Suspend; it is great from a usability perspective, and I also suspend often and like it. However, I feel that the rigor with which this is pushed upon the complete user base of GNOME (minus those are knowledgeable enough to change a hidden dconf setting) is not right. While suspending is convenient, many people do want to save power when they don't use their desktop or laptop over night, or simply because they only use it one or two hours a day anyway. I don't see this as a minor use case; its a general consideration of many, enviromentally aware people, especially in European countries such as Germany where the Green party is going strong and we are already warned about the environmental impact of standby devices in elementary school. Regardless of their technical knowledge, such people will be put off by not being able to properly shut off, or having to jump trough hoops to do so. They will think that GNOME doesn't care about the environment. I don't want our wonderful community to make that impression. I don't want to start yet another flame war with this message (please, let's be sensible and respectful when discussing this). Neither do I want to denounce the design team; in fact, I greatly respect the design team for the many things it has done to make GNOME 3 the awesome piece of software that it is today, and that it will be tomorrow. I also don't want to throw everybody from the design team in the same pot: there are GNOME designers that are sympathetic towards some kind of compromise, as the discussion around bug #652183 [1] reveals. However, I feel that the current situation is not right, and that *something* has to be done to reach a solution that combines a high degree of usability with easily accessible ways to act environmentally responsible. Best regards, Denis Washington [1] https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=652183 ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: GNOME 3.1.90 beta released!
Hey Denis! On Thu, Sep 1, 2011 at 1:18 PM, Denis Washington wrote: > Am 01.09.2011 11:34, schrieb Frederic Peters: >> >> Hello all, >> >> This is 3.1.90, and it's out! It's the first beta of what will be >> GNOME 3.2, enjoy it while it's time, the next beta (3.1.91) will >> arrive next week. > > I saw this in the release notes of gnome-control-center: > > "Power: > - Remove power and suspend buttons config (Bastien Nocera) (#652183) > (#657068)" > > I am sad. Oh dear, don't be sad! The intent behind those changes is to ensure consistency and predictability. If we know what the behaviour of the hard buttons is going to be, we can produce better designs elsewhere and it is easier to provide users with advice and guidance. Also, we really want to be able to specify separate long and short button press actions for the hard power button (like on a mobile phone). It is hard to accommodate that kind of behaviour within a set of preferences that are easy to understand. > I know that the GNOME design team has its reasons to promote Suspend; it is > great from a usability perspective, and I also suspend often and like it. > However, I feel that the rigor with which this is pushed upon the complete > user base of GNOME (minus those are knowledgeable enough to change a hidden > dconf setting) is not right. > > While suspending is convenient, many people do want to save power when they > don't use their desktop or laptop over night, or simply because they only > use it one or two hours a day anyway. I don't see this as a minor use case; > its a general consideration of many, enviromentally aware people, especially > in European countries such as Germany where the Green party is going strong > and we are already warned about the environmental impact of standby devices > in elementary school. Regardless of their technical knowledge, such people > will be put off by not being able to properly shut off, or having to jump > trough hoops to do so. They will think that GNOME doesn't care about the > environment. I don't want our wonderful community to make that impression. > > I don't want to start yet another flame war with this message (please, let's > be sensible and respectful when discussing this). Neither do I want to > denounce the design team; in fact, I greatly respect the design team for the > many things it has done to make GNOME 3 the awesome piece of software that > it is today, and that it will be tomorrow. I also don't want to throw > everybody from the design team in the same pot: there are GNOME designers > that are sympathetic towards some kind of compromise, as the discussion > around bug #652183 [1] reveals. However, I feel that the current situation > is not right, and that *something* has to be done to reach a solution that > combines a high degree of usability with easily accessible ways to act > environmentally responsible. I honestly think that the behaviour of those buttons is a separate issue from whether they should be configurable or not. Thanks for the kind words. :) Allan -- IRC: aday on irc.gnome.org Blog: http://afaikblog.wordpress.com/ ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: GNOME 3.1.90 beta released!
Am 01.09.2011 15:22, schrieb Allan Day: Hey Denis! On Thu, Sep 1, 2011 at 1:18 PM, Denis Washington wrote: Am 01.09.2011 11:34, schrieb Frederic Peters: Hello all, This is 3.1.90, and it's out! It's the first beta of what will be GNOME 3.2, enjoy it while it's time, the next beta (3.1.91) will arrive next week. I saw this in the release notes of gnome-control-center: "Power: - Remove power and suspend buttons config (Bastien Nocera) (#652183) (#657068)" I am sad. Oh dear, don't be sad! The intent behind those changes is to ensure consistency and predictability. If we know what the behaviour of the hard buttons is going to be, we can produce better designs elsewhere and it is easier to provide users with advice and guidance. Also, we really want to be able to specify separate long and short button press actions for the hard power button (like on a mobile phone). It is hard to accommodate that kind of behaviour within a set of preferences that are easy to understand. Sounds interesting, though there is still the discoverability issue: you would have to know that a long button press powers off, and that pressing the power button gives you a shutdown method not accessible from the shell. (In fact, there are still a surprising number of people who still think that you must never ever touch the power button or risk your computer's health otherwise.) Having said that, I'd like to make clear that the option itself is not what I am sad about. In fact, I would even be happy about the removal if the default behavior were sane and allowed me, and everyone who wants to do so, to easily discover a choose an energy-preserving full shutdown method. But currently, this is not the case, and this is what worries me. I know that the GNOME design team has its reasons to promote Suspend; it is great from a usability perspective, and I also suspend often and like it. However, I feel that the rigor with which this is pushed upon the complete user base of GNOME (minus those are knowledgeable enough to change a hidden dconf setting) is not right. While suspending is convenient, many people do want to save power when they don't use their desktop or laptop over night, or simply because they only use it one or two hours a day anyway. I don't see this as a minor use case; its a general consideration of many, enviromentally aware people, especially in European countries such as Germany where the Green party is going strong and we are already warned about the environmental impact of standby devices in elementary school. Regardless of their technical knowledge, such people will be put off by not being able to properly shut off, or having to jump trough hoops to do so. They will think that GNOME doesn't care about the environment. I don't want our wonderful community to make that impression. I don't want to start yet another flame war with this message (please, let's be sensible and respectful when discussing this). Neither do I want to denounce the design team; in fact, I greatly respect the design team for the many things it has done to make GNOME 3 the awesome piece of software that it is today, and that it will be tomorrow. I also don't want to throw everybody from the design team in the same pot: there are GNOME designers that are sympathetic towards some kind of compromise, as the discussion around bug #652183 [1] reveals. However, I feel that the current situation is not right, and that *something* has to be done to reach a solution that combines a high degree of usability with easily accessible ways to act environmentally responsible. I honestly think that the behaviour of those buttons is a separate issue from whether they should be configurable or not. True. As I said, I'm not looking for configurability, but for an overall solution that allows to both suspend and power down. Thanks for the kind words. :) You're welcome. :) Regards, Denis ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: GNOME 3.1.90 beta released!
On 1 September 2011 15:05, Denis Washington wrote: > Sounds interesting, though there is still the discoverability issue: you > would have to know that a long button press powers off, and that pressing > the power button gives you a shutdown method not accessible from the shell. > (In fact, there are still a surprising number of people who still think that > you must never ever touch the power button or risk your computer's health > otherwise.) A solid and reliable behavior should also make it easier to have good and explicit documentation about stuff such as this. Rui ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: GNOME 3.1.90 beta released!
On Thu, 2011-09-01 at 14:22 +0100, Allan Day wrote: > Hey Denis! > > On Thu, Sep 1, 2011 at 1:18 PM, Denis Washington wrote: > > Am 01.09.2011 11:34, schrieb Frederic Peters: > >> > >> Hello all, > >> > >> This is 3.1.90, and it's out! It's the first beta of what will be > >> GNOME 3.2, enjoy it while it's time, the next beta (3.1.91) will > >> arrive next week. > > > > I saw this in the release notes of gnome-control-center: > > > > "Power: > > - Remove power and suspend buttons config (Bastien Nocera) (#652183) > > (#657068)" > > > > I am sad. > > Oh dear, don't be sad! > > The intent behind those changes is to ensure consistency and > predictability. If we know what the behaviour of the hard buttons is > going to be, we can produce better designs elsewhere and it is easier > to provide users with advice and guidance. > > Also, we really want to be able to specify separate long and short > button press actions for the hard power button (like on a mobile > phone). It is hard to accommodate that kind of behaviour within a set > of preferences that are easy to understand. I just want to be clear for the docs. What is the behavior of each of these two buttons? And doing something on long-press is just the goal, but not actually implemented for 3.2? Thanks, Shaun ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: GNOME 3.1.90 beta released!
On 09/01/2011 11:06 AM, Shaun McCance wrote: > I just want to be clear for the docs. What is the behavior of > each of these two buttons? And doing something on long-press > is just the goal, but not actually implemented for 3.2? Long-press on power button immediately cuts power to the machine, and will always do that, because that's hardcoded into the motherboard. -- Dan ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: GNOME 3.1.90 beta released!
On Thu, 2011-09-01 at 11:17 -0400, Dan Winship wrote: > On 09/01/2011 11:06 AM, Shaun McCance wrote: > > I just want to be clear for the docs. What is the behavior of > > each of these two buttons? And doing something on long-press > > is just the goal, but not actually implemented for 3.2? > > Long-press on power button immediately cuts power to the machine, and > will always do that, because that's hardcoded into the motherboard. See https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=657496 I hope we get some hardware that's a bit more advanced than this 1990's behaviour in the future. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: GNOME 3.1.90 beta released!
Denis Washington a écrit: > True. As I said, I'm not looking for configurability, but for an > overall solution that allows to both suspend and power down. And to hibernate, please. -- Dodji ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: GNOME 3.1.90 beta released!
On Thu, Sep 1, 2011 at 12:24 PM, Bastien Nocera wrote: > On Thu, 2011-09-01 at 11:17 -0400, Dan Winship wrote: >> On 09/01/2011 11:06 AM, Shaun McCance wrote: >> > I just want to be clear for the docs. What is the behavior of >> > each of these two buttons? And doing something on long-press >> > is just the goal, but not actually implemented for 3.2? >> >> Long-press on power button immediately cuts power to the machine, and >> will always do that, because that's hardcoded into the motherboard. > > See https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=657496 > > I hope we get some hardware that's a bit more advanced than this 1990's > behaviour in the future. > > As someone misfortunate enough to have used a WM phone for a few months I don't see what's so bad about the classic behaviour (for the lucky ones that may be unaware, I basically had to manually remove the battery every other week to recover from an OS crash). Cheers, Evandro ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: GNOME 3.1.90 beta released!
On Thu, Sep 1, 2011 at 10:55 PM, Evandro Giovanini wrote: > On Thu, Sep 1, 2011 at 12:24 PM, Bastien Nocera wrote: >> See https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=657496 >> >> I hope we get some hardware that's a bit more advanced than this 1990's >> behaviour in the future. >> >> > > As someone misfortunate enough to have used a WM phone for a few > months I don't see what's so bad about the classic behaviour (for the > lucky ones that may be unaware, I basically had to manually remove the > battery every other week to recover from an OS crash). > On my laptop, I encounter enough hard lockups while testing software that the long-press behaviour of the power button is essential for me. I don't want to have to flip my machine over and take out the battery everytime. For all I know, doing that repeatedly might even damage the device. -- ~Nirbheek Chauhan Gentoo GNOME+Mozilla Team ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: GNOME 3.1.90 beta released!
> See https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=657496 > > I hope we get some hardware that's a bit more advanced than this 1990's > behaviour in the future. Unlikely. Users like a way to get their system back into sane order. Another reason a software option to power off is useful - it cleans up any crap, leaks etc. In a perfect world it isn't needed, but in this particular one it is. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: GNOME 3.1.90 beta released!
On Fri, 2011-09-02 at 00:18 +0530, Nirbheek Chauhan wrote: > On Thu, Sep 1, 2011 at 10:55 PM, Evandro Giovanini > wrote: > > On Thu, Sep 1, 2011 at 12:24 PM, Bastien Nocera wrote: > >> See https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=657496 > >> > >> I hope we get some hardware that's a bit more advanced than this 1990's > >> behaviour in the future. > > > > As someone misfortunate enough to have used a WM phone for a few > > months I don't see what's so bad about the classic behaviour (for the > > lucky ones that may be unaware, I basically had to manually remove the > > battery every other week to recover from an OS crash). > > On my laptop, I encounter enough hard lockups while testing software > that the long-press behaviour of the power button is essential for me. > I don't want to have to flip my machine over and take out the battery > everytime. For all I know, doing that repeatedly might even damage the > device. In the worst case, you still can use the Magic SysRq key. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_SysRq_key -- Germán Póo-Caamaño http://people.gnome.org/~gpoo/ signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: GNOME 3.1.90 beta released!
On Fri, Sep 2, 2011 at 12:40 AM, Germán Póo-Caamaño wrote: > On Fri, 2011-09-02 at 00:18 +0530, Nirbheek Chauhan wrote: >> On my laptop, I encounter enough hard lockups while testing software >> that the long-press behaviour of the power button is essential for me. >> I don't want to have to flip my machine over and take out the battery >> everytime. For all I know, doing that repeatedly might even damage the >> device. > > In the worst case, you still can use the Magic SysRq key. > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_SysRq_key > They often don't work in case of kernel lockups, or Xorg problems (which often lockup the kernel). They've worked maybe half the time I've had a system lockup. -- ~Nirbheek Chauhan Gentoo GNOME+Mozilla Team ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: GNOME 3.1.90 beta released!
On Thu, Sep 01, 2011 at 11:06:12AM -0400, Shaun McCance wrote: > I just want to be clear for the docs. What is the behavior of > each of these two buttons? And doing something on long-press > is just the goal, but not actually implemented for 3.2? Not implemented and not currently possible on any x86 hardware. -- Matthew Garrett | mj...@srcf.ucam.org ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
