Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: The Future of Epiphany
Totally forgot to reply... Le mardi 01 avril 2008, à 15:21 +0200, Christian Persch a écrit : * Starting in time for Gnome 2.24, WebKit/GTK+ will implement a 6-month release cycle synchronised with the Gnome release schedule. This sounds really great! Can we get more details about this WebKit/GTK+ release cycle? Who is the right person to contact about this? Thanks, Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: The Future of Epiphany
On Tue, 2008-04-01 at 15:21 +0200, Christian Persch wrote: Hello; Over the last few months, the Epiphany development team has been discussing the future of the Gnome web browser. We feel that we haven't been living up to the full potential of a well-integrated Gnome application, due to both internal and external constraints. The Epiphany user interface is built on top of an abstraction layer above the web rendering engine, enabling us to support multiple back-ends. Currently Epiphany supports the Mozilla browser engine (Gecko), and the WebKit engine. The Epiphany dependency on Gecko creates a number of problems for us. The Gecko release cycle is very long (e.g. Gecko 1.8 was released with Firefox 1.5 in 2005; 1.8.1 with Firefox 2.0 in 2006 and 1.9 will be released sometime this year with Firefox 3.0), prone to delays and not synchronised with the unvarying 6-month Gnome release cycle. Furthermore, it and the feature work on Gecko are mostly driven by the Firefox browser, our main competitor on the Gnome desktop. Also the embedding API of Gecko (GtkMozEmbed) has been unmaintained and stagnant for a long time. Finally, the current plans for Mozilla 2.0 bring much uncertainty to us, as well as much work to account for their proposed big API changes. We are a small team, with only one maintainer and a hand-full of regular contributors. Maintaining the abstraction layer, and the Gecko back-end require lot of effort and time. Much time alone is spent on keeping up with Gecko API changes, and we have not had much contributions to the Gecko back-end in a long time. Therefore we have decided to radically change the future of Epiphany in the upcoming 2.24 development cycle. We will drop the abstraction layer, making the code more maintainable, allowing faster development and enabling us to take advantage of the features of the back-end directly. Furthermore, we will choose only one web engine back-end to support and concentrate our efforts on it instead of spreading our efforts to multiple back-ends and restricting us to the common features all back-ends support. This single back-end will be * WebKit *. We see several advantages in WebKit. These include: * The WebKit APIs. The API has been designed from the ground up, and feels like any other GObject based API. A two-way GObject bindings to the web page's DOM, and to JavaScript is in development; this will allow us and our Extensions to access the DOM directly, which hasn't been possible before in Epiphany in either C or Python. * WebKit uses Gnome technologies directly. Similarly to Gecko, it uses Cairo for graphics, and Pango for the rendering. On top of that, it uses libsoup for the network layer, and GStreamer for the video and audio tag support in HTML5. * Starting in time for Gnome 2.24, WebKit/GTK+ will implement a 6-month release cycle synchronised with the Gnome release schedule. * We feel that WebKit has the momentum, and can bring more developers to both Epiphany directly and the Gnome platform by extension. WebKit/GTK+ already has more people working on it than are working on either GtkMozEmbed or the Epiphany gecko back-end. * WebKit is a better match for *other* uses in Gnome, e.g. as a HTML widget in Yelp, in Devhelp, and as an editor in Evolution replacing GtkHTML. Does WebKit provide a html editor? I always thought it was just a html rendering engine. I was planning for WebKit/Gtk for Evolution, was taken back due to editor . I definitely don't want to use one for rendering and another for editing. Anyways, good decision IMO and all the best. -Srini ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: The Future of Epiphany
2008/4/1, Christian Persch [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hello; Over the last few months, the Epiphany development team has been discussing the future of the Gnome web browser. We feel that we haven't been living up to the full potential of a well-integrated Gnome application, due to both internal and external constraints. The Epiphany user interface is built on top of an abstraction layer above the web rendering engine, enabling us to support multiple back-ends. Currently Epiphany supports the Mozilla browser engine (Gecko), and the WebKit engine. The Epiphany dependency on Gecko creates a number of problems for us. The Gecko release cycle is very long (e.g. Gecko 1.8 was released with Firefox 1.5 in 2005; 1.8.1 with Firefox 2.0 in 2006 and 1.9 will be released sometime this year with Firefox 3.0), prone to delays and not synchronised with the unvarying 6-month Gnome release cycle. Furthermore, it and the feature work on Gecko are mostly driven by the Firefox browser, our main competitor on the Gnome desktop. Also the embedding API of Gecko (GtkMozEmbed) has been unmaintained and stagnant for a long time. Finally, the current plans for Mozilla 2.0 bring much uncertainty to us, as well as much work to account for their proposed big API changes. We are a small team, with only one maintainer and a hand-full of regular contributors. Maintaining the abstraction layer, and the Gecko back-end require lot of effort and time. Much time alone is spent on keeping up with Gecko API changes, and we have not had much contributions to the Gecko back-end in a long time. Therefore we have decided to radically change the future of Epiphany in the upcoming 2.24 development cycle. We will drop the abstraction layer, making the code more maintainable, allowing faster development and enabling us to take advantage of the features of the back-end directly. Furthermore, we will choose only one web engine back-end to support and concentrate our efforts on it instead of spreading our efforts to multiple back-ends and restricting us to the common features all back-ends support. This single back-end will be * WebKit *. We see several advantages in WebKit. These include: * The WebKit APIs. The API has been designed from the ground up, and feels like any other GObject based API. A two-way GObject bindings to the web page's DOM, and to JavaScript is in development; this will allow us and our Extensions to access the DOM directly, which hasn't been possible before in Epiphany in either C or Python. * WebKit uses Gnome technologies directly. Similarly to Gecko, it uses Cairo for graphics, and Pango for the rendering. On top of that, it uses libsoup for the network layer, and GStreamer for the video and audio tag support in HTML5. * Starting in time for Gnome 2.24, WebKit/GTK+ will implement a 6-month release cycle synchronised with the Gnome release schedule. * We feel that WebKit has the momentum, and can bring more developers to both Epiphany directly and the Gnome platform by extension. WebKit/GTK+ already has more people working on it than are working on either GtkMozEmbed or the Epiphany gecko back-end. * WebKit is a better match for *other* uses in Gnome, e.g. as a HTML widget in Yelp, in Devhelp, and as an editor in Evolution replacing GtkHTML. We will propose WebKit as an approved external dependency for Gnome. In case that we are unable to complete this development in time for 2.24.0, we will delay the new Epiphany to 2.26. For this end, we will maintain the gnome-2-22 branch in a state that allows us to potentially make the 2.24.0 release off of that branch. Signed, The Epiphany developers Wouter Bolsterlee Cosimo Cecchi Diego Escalante Urrelo Xan Lopez Christian Persch Reinout van Schouwen Alp Toker for (i=0;ias_much_as_i_can;i++) +1; -- Un saludo, Alberto Ruiz ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: The Future of Epiphany
2008/4/1 Alberto Ruiz [EMAIL PROTECTED]: 2008/4/1, Christian Persch [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Furthermore, we will choose only one web engine back-end to support and concentrate our efforts on it instead of spreading our efforts to multiple back-ends and restricting us to the common features all back-ends support. This single back-end will be * WebKit *. for (i=0;ias_much_as_i_can;i++) +1; Please tell me this ain't no April Fools crap and I'm not dreaming? while true: +1 -- Patryk Zawadzki PLD Linux Distribution ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: The Future of Epiphany
On Tue, Apr 1, 2008 at 3:46 PM, Srinivasa Ragavan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Does WebKit provide a html editor? I always thought it was just a html rendering engine. I was planning for WebKit/Gtk for Evolution, was taken back due to editor . I definitely don't want to use one for rendering and another for editing. Set editable to true and you get an editor ;) -- Patryk Zawadzki PLD Linux Distribution ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: The Future of Epiphany
On Tue, Apr 1, 2008 at 8:21 AM, Christian Persch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This single back-end will be * WebKit *. Hoping this is not an April Fool's joke, also. +1 ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: The Future of Epiphany
On Tue, Apr 1, 2008 at 5:15 PM, Bastien Nocera [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, 2008-04-01 at 10:12 -0500, Jason D. Clinton wrote: On Tue, Apr 1, 2008 at 8:21 AM, Christian Persch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This single back-end will be * WebKit *. Hoping this is not an April Fool's joke, also. +1 I hope it's one or that Christian will help fixor Totem's browser plugin to not use XPCOM. It does not link against any part of gecko so does it need anything more than a working copy of npapi.h? -- Patryk Zawadzki PLD Linux Distribution ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: The Future of Epiphany
On Tue, 2008-04-01 at 10:12 -0500, Jason D. Clinton wrote: On Tue, Apr 1, 2008 at 8:21 AM, Christian Persch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This single back-end will be * WebKit *. Hoping this is not an April Fool's joke, also. +1 I hope it's one or that Christian will help fixor Totem's browser plugin to not use XPCOM. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: The Future of Epiphany
On Tue, Apr 1, 2008 at 5:32 PM, Bastien Nocera [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, 2008-04-01 at 17:29 +0200, Patryk Zawadzki wrote: On Tue, Apr 1, 2008 at 5:15 PM, Bastien Nocera [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, 2008-04-01 at 10:12 -0500, Jason D. Clinton wrote: On Tue, Apr 1, 2008 at 8:21 AM, Christian Persch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This single back-end will be * WebKit *. Hoping this is not an April Fool's joke, also. +1 I hope it's one or that Christian will help fixor Totem's browser plugin to not use XPCOM. It does not link against any part of gecko Yes, it does. Uhm... [EMAIL PROTECTED] browser-plugin]$ ldd /usr/lib/browser-plugins/libtotem-*.so | grep xp [EMAIL PROTECTED] browser-plugin]$ ldd /usr/lib/browser-plugins/libtotem-*.so | grep moz [EMAIL PROTECTED] browser-plugin]$ ldd /usr/lib/browser-plugins/libtotem-*.so | grep fire [EMAIL PROTECTED] browser-plugin]$ ldd /usr/lib/browser-plugins/libtotem-*.so | grep xul [EMAIL PROTECTED] browser-plugin]$ rpm -q -R browser-plugin-totem /bin/sh /bin/sh browser-plugins = 2.0 browser-plugins(i386) libX11.so.6 libXrandr.so.2 libXtst.so.6 libXxf86vm.so.1 libatk-1.0.so.0 libc.so.6 libc.so.6(GLIBC_2.0) libc.so.6(GLIBC_2.1.3) libc.so.6(GLIBC_2.2) libcairo.so.2 libdbus-glib-1.so.2 libdl.so.2 libdl.so.2(GLIBC_2.0) libdl.so.2(GLIBC_2.1) libgcc_s.so.1 libgcc_s.so.1(GCC_3.0) libgconf-2.so.4 libgdk-x11-2.0.so.0 libgdk_pixbuf-2.0.so.0 libglib-2.0.so.0 libgnomevfs-2.so.0 libgobject-2.0.so.0 libgstaudio-0.10.so.0 libgstinterfaces-0.10.so.0 libgstpbutils-0.10.so.0 libgstreamer-0.10.so.0 libgstvideo-0.10.so.0 libgthread-2.0.so.0 libgtk-x11-2.0.so.0 libm.so.6 libm.so.6(GLIBC_2.0) libnvtvsimple.so.0 libpthread.so.0 libstartup-notification-1.so.0 libstdc++.so.6 libstdc++.so.6(CXXABI_1.3) libstdc++.so.6(GLIBCXX_3.4) libtotem-plparser-mini.so.10 libtotem-plparser.so.10 rtld(GNU_HASH) totem = 2.22.0-2 rpmlib(PayloadIsLzma) = 4.4.6-1 so does it need anything more than a working copy of npapi.h? Yes. What exactly? -- Patryk Zawadzki PLD Linux Distribution ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: The Future of Epiphany
On Tue, 2008-04-01 at 15:21 +0200, Christian Persch wrote: Furthermore, we will choose only one web engine back-end to support and concentrate our efforts on it instead of spreading our efforts to multiple back-ends and restricting us to the common features all back-ends support. This single back-end will be * WebKit *. Hi Christian, As a Yelp developer, I'm very excited about what WebKit can bring to our desktop. It's delivering on what I'd hoped Gecko would bring us years ago: a rock-solid and simple API for HTML and web-enabled applications. Using Gecko has always felt like surgically extracting pieces of another application, rather than using a well-designed library. In time, I hope we can see WebKit/GTK+ move into the desktop, and then the platform. We've been desperately needing this for years. *But* I'm concerned about accessibility. A long time ago, Yelp switched to Gecko from gtkhtml2. Back then, there were all sorts of accessibility problems with Gecko. Now those issues have been largely resolved, and I'm hesitant about anything that might introduce accessibility regressions again. Willie Walker talked about this a bit recently on d-d-l: http://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2008-February/msg00213.html And for ARIA, David Bolter pointed out the WebKit bug: http://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=12132 ARIA is a fairly new thing that's designed to make rich Internet applications accessible. I'm curious how well WebKit interacts with our accessibility tools for good old fashioned HTML. Does it talk to ATK? Can a screen reader read a simple page in Epiphany+WebKit? -- Shaun ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: The Future of Epiphany
On Tue, 2008-04-01 at 17:41 +0200, Patryk Zawadzki wrote: On Tue, Apr 1, 2008 at 5:32 PM, Bastien Nocera [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, 2008-04-01 at 17:29 +0200, Patryk Zawadzki wrote: On Tue, Apr 1, 2008 at 5:15 PM, Bastien Nocera [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, 2008-04-01 at 10:12 -0500, Jason D. Clinton wrote: On Tue, Apr 1, 2008 at 8:21 AM, Christian Persch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This single back-end will be * WebKit *. Hoping this is not an April Fool's joke, also. +1 I hope it's one or that Christian will help fixor Totem's browser plugin to not use XPCOM. It does not link against any part of gecko Yes, it does. Uhm... [EMAIL PROTECTED] browser-plugin]$ rpm -q -R browser-plugin-totem Your RPM is missing a dependency on the mozilla/Firefox libraries. We don't link against it directly, as the linkage is resolved at run-time. We do link against it directly for xulrunner, as the API is (more) stable. so does it need anything more than a working copy of npapi.h? Yes. What exactly? XPCOM, the document DOM, even the Timer usage to launch the totem-plugin-viewer helper. See: http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=520629 And the WebKit plugin support isn't finished either: http://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14750 ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: The Future of Epiphany
On Tue, 2008-04-01 at 17:29 +0200, Patryk Zawadzki wrote: On Tue, Apr 1, 2008 at 5:15 PM, Bastien Nocera [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, 2008-04-01 at 10:12 -0500, Jason D. Clinton wrote: On Tue, Apr 1, 2008 at 8:21 AM, Christian Persch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This single back-end will be * WebKit *. Hoping this is not an April Fool's joke, also. +1 I hope it's one or that Christian will help fixor Totem's browser plugin to not use XPCOM. It does not link against any part of gecko Yes, it does. so does it need anything more than a working copy of npapi.h? Yes. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
