Re: Baobab
On 8/17/06, Calum Benson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Depends whether you've right-clicked a disk icon or a folder icon, I would say... You're right. It is reasonable to make the string sensible to the clicked context. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Baobab
On 8/12/06, Matthew Paul Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Chipzz was voicing a likely question of someone who hasn't seen Baobab before upon encountering Open in Baobab, not being a clueless user him-/her-self. We have just discussed on this sasme thread about that, and we agreed to use : Analyze Folder Usage, or something similar. Why discuss this again? Fabio ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Baobab
tor, 17,.08.2006 kl. 14.03 +0200, skrev Fabio Marzocca: On 8/12/06, Matthew Paul Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Chipzz was voicing a likely question of someone who hasn't seen Baobab before upon encountering Open in Baobab, not being a clueless user him-/her-self. We have just discussed on this sasme thread about that, and we agreed to use : Analyze Folder Usage, or something similar. Why discuss this again? Because that might not be the best string to use? :-) To me Analyze Folder Usage doesn't necessarily mean how much space the files in this folder takes. And it translates badly to norwegian at least... Cheers Kjartan ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Baobab
On 8/17/06, Kjartan Maraas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Because that might not be the best string to use? :-) I was not referring to the string, but just to the fact that we will not use Open with Baobab... in nautilus context menu. Which is your suggestion? ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Baobab
On 8/17/06, Wouter Bolsterlee [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Show Disk Usage or even Analyze Disk Usage mmm... If this has to be listed on nautilus context menu when right-clicked a folder, maybe it is not a Disk Usage, but a ...Folder Usage ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Baobab
On Thu, 2006-08-17 at 15:40 +0200, Fabio Marzocca wrote: On 8/17/06, Wouter Bolsterlee [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Show Disk Usage or even Analyze Disk Usage mmm... If this has to be listed on nautilus context menu when right-clicked a folder, maybe it is not a Disk Usage, but a ...Folder Usage Depends whether you've right-clicked a disk icon or a folder icon, I would say... Cheeri, Calum. -- CALUM BENSON, Usability Engineer Sun Microsystems Ireland mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Java Desktop System Group http://ie.sun.com +353 1 819 9771 Any opinions are personal and not necessarily those of Sun Microsystems ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Baobab
That's because the developers no longer had rights to the Ethereal name. Personally, I prefer the name Ethereal, and find it far from arbitrary (Ethernet, anyone?). Wireshark is a more aggressive name that makes it sound like part of a sploit kit, IMHO. Sandy On 8/12/06, Alex Jones [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You know I only recently noticed that the guys behind Ethereal took the move of renaming it to something slightly less arbitrary - Wireshark. Smart move. Perhaps we should follow suit with some of our crazily-named apps. On Sat, 2006-08-12 at 01:57 -0700, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: On Aug 11, 2006, at 2:47 PM, Alan Horkan wrote: On Fri, 11 Aug 2006, Chipzz wrote: ... Clueless user Baobab? WTF is Baobab? Two words: disk usage. It is also a type of tree. Chipzz was voicing a likely question of someone who hasn't seen Baobab before upon encountering Open in Baobab, not being a clueless user him-/her-self. Brand names should be used for things where competition or standards compliance is important (e.g. operating systems, Web browsers, Internet protocols, file formats). For something as mundane as a View by Size menu item, go for obviousness instead. This was discussed recently http://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2006-July/ msg00681.html Yes, Chipzz's message is part of that same thread. ... The third item listed by google for the word Baobab is the homepage for the Baobab disk usage program: http://www.marzocca.net/linux/baobab.html ... Are you suggesting that someone be expected to search Google to understand menu items in a file manager? ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Baobab
Hi An example of this. When I go to Applications - Accessories - Text Editor, up pops a window titled Unsaved Document 1 - gedit. I think these are the two extremes. I'm not saying we have to prefix every GNOME application has to be prefixed GNOME (i.e. GNOME Text Editor, GNOME Calculator, etc.) but the .desktop file should at least *partially* match the application name. On Sun, 2006-08-13 at 16:17 +0100, Alan Horkan wrote: On Sun, 13 Aug 2006, Alex Jones wrote: Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 02:22:46 +0100 From: Alex Jones [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Matthew Paul Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: GNOME Desktop Developers Mailing List desktop-devel-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Baobab You know I only recently noticed that the guys behind Ethereal took the move of renaming it to something slightly less arbitrary - Wireshark. Smart move. Perhaps we should follow suit with some of our crazily-named apps. In the case of Baobab I expect Gnome will have gnome-disk-usage and a similar sounding generic name to make keep things relatively easy to seperate out later if necessary. When it comes to crazily-named apps I'm in favour of rebranding them as with a rather generic two word /Gnome Thing/ and leaving the more interesting names as internal codenames, which is sort of what happens already but the internal names get exposed in a lot more places than we might ideally like. In effect this would be doing much like the older commercial software vendoers where Gnome becomes the Company/Brand name and used as a prefix to a fairly geneneric name. Application names are partially abstracted out already by the Internationalisation system. I haven't heard any stories yet of application names being accidentally translated into something particularly offensive (or any more offensive than the English originals) but some allowances would need to be made for local cultures. I do think any developer would be wise to fully abstract out the application name early on in the development process, just as they would plan for portability even if they themselves only use one operating system. (Look at the troubles Netscape, Mozilla, Firefox went through with their naming and the eventual result is a whole lot of infrastructure which make is easy for anyone to rebrand the program using a simple extension.) Should they a developer ever be forced to rebrand it provides another opportunity to abstract out the name properly rather than performing a rough find and replace and assuming they will never be forced to repeat the process. There may be commerical opportunities for specially customized builds or simply cases where developers might want a distribution to clearly mark their version as different and properly support any troublesome changes they might have made. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Baobab
You are missing the point. I was *impersonating* a clueless user (or trying to point out (like someone else did too) that Open with Baobab is meaningless). kr, Jan On Fri, 11 Aug 2006, Alan Horkan wrote: From: Alan Horkan [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Baobab On Fri, 11 Aug 2006, Chipzz wrote: Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 23:04:19 +0200 (CEST) From: Chipzz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Fabio Marzocca [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: desktop-devel-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Baobab Clueless user Baobab? WTF is Baobab? Two words: disk usage. It is also a type of tree. This was discussed recently http://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2006-July/msg00681.html and slightly less recently when it was proposed http://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2006-April/msg00112.html The third item listed by google for the word Baobab is the homepage for the Baobab disk usage program: http://www.marzocca.net/linux/baobab.html Chipzz AKA Jan Van Buggenhout -- UNIX isn't dead - It just smells funny [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baldric, you wouldn't recognize a subtle plan if it painted itself pur- ple and danced naked on a harpsicord singing 'subtle plans are here a- gain'. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Baobab
On Sat, 12 Aug 2006, Chipzz wrote: Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 09:38:19 +0200 (CEST) From: Chipzz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Alan Horkan [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: desktop-devel-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Baobab You are missing the point. I was *impersonating* a clueless user You wrote a very short top posted message including a lot of other irrelevant information. Your impersonation of a clueless user was far too convincing. Written sarcasm is not a good idea. (or trying to point out (like someone else did too) that Open with Baobab is meaningless). A clueless user wouldn't be going anywhere near the context menu, most ordinary users do not right click. The point about the name Baobab has been made before, users probably shouldn't see anything other than Disk Usage or whatever generic descriptive name the developers decide on. -- Alan ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Baobab
On Aug 11, 2006, at 2:47 PM, Alan Horkan wrote: On Fri, 11 Aug 2006, Chipzz wrote: ... Clueless user Baobab? WTF is Baobab? Two words: disk usage. It is also a type of tree. Chipzz was voicing a likely question of someone who hasn't seen Baobab before upon encountering Open in Baobab, not being a clueless user him-/her-self. Brand names should be used for things where competition or standards compliance is important (e.g. operating systems, Web browsers, Internet protocols, file formats). For something as mundane as a View by Size menu item, go for obviousness instead. This was discussed recently http://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2006-July/ msg00681.html Yes, Chipzz's message is part of that same thread. ... The third item listed by google for the word Baobab is the homepage for the Baobab disk usage program: http://www.marzocca.net/linux/baobab.html ... Are you suggesting that someone be expected to search Google to understand menu items in a file manager? -- Matthew Paul Thomas http://mpt.net.nz/ ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Baobab
You know I only recently noticed that the guys behind Ethereal took the move of renaming it to something slightly less arbitrary - Wireshark. Smart move. Perhaps we should follow suit with some of our crazily-named apps. On Sat, 2006-08-12 at 01:57 -0700, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: On Aug 11, 2006, at 2:47 PM, Alan Horkan wrote: On Fri, 11 Aug 2006, Chipzz wrote: ... Clueless user Baobab? WTF is Baobab? Two words: disk usage. It is also a type of tree. Chipzz was voicing a likely question of someone who hasn't seen Baobab before upon encountering Open in Baobab, not being a clueless user him-/her-self. Brand names should be used for things where competition or standards compliance is important (e.g. operating systems, Web browsers, Internet protocols, file formats). For something as mundane as a View by Size menu item, go for obviousness instead. This was discussed recently http://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2006-July/ msg00681.html Yes, Chipzz's message is part of that same thread. ... The third item listed by google for the word Baobab is the homepage for the Baobab disk usage program: http://www.marzocca.net/linux/baobab.html ... Are you suggesting that someone be expected to search Google to understand menu items in a file manager? ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Baobab
On Wed, 26 Jul 2006, Emmanuele Bassi wrote: baobab, like the screenshoter, the file search dialog, the dictionary Shouldn't the screenshooter be part of gnome-panel? Gnome-panel includes only very basic applets, but I would consider a screenshooting utility basic enough to be included. kr, Chipzz AKA Jan Van Buggenhout -- UNIX isn't dead - It just smells funny [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baldric, you wouldn't recognize a subtle plan if it painted itself pur- ple and danced naked on a harpsicord singing 'subtle plans are here a- gain'. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Baobab
Clueless user Baobab? WTF is Baobab? On Fri, 28 Jul 2006, Fabio Marzocca wrote: If you have properly set up things, when you right-click on a folder from Nautilus, you have Open with Baobab in the context-menu. Fabio Chipzz AKA Jan Van Buggenhout -- UNIX isn't dead - It just smells funny [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baldric, you wouldn't recognize a subtle plan if it painted itself pur- ple and danced naked on a harpsicord singing 'subtle plans are here a- gain'. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Baobab
Hi; I'm subscribed to the list - there's no need to Cc: me. On Fri, 2006-08-11 at 22:48 +0200, Chipzz wrote: On Wed, 26 Jul 2006, Emmanuele Bassi wrote: baobab, like the screenshoter, the file search dialog, the dictionary Shouldn't the screenshooter be part of gnome-panel? It was - for the last three or four releases it has been part of gnome-utils as gnome-screenshot is not an applet anymore. Ciao, Emmanuele. -- Emmanuele Bassi, E: [EMAIL PROTECTED] W: http://www.emmanuelebassi.net B: http://log.emmanuelebassi.net ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Baobab
On Fri, 11 Aug 2006, Chipzz wrote: Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 23:04:19 +0200 (CEST) From: Chipzz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Fabio Marzocca [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: desktop-devel-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Baobab Clueless user Baobab? WTF is Baobab? Two words: disk usage. It is also a type of tree. This was discussed recently http://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2006-July/msg00681.html and slightly less recently when it was proposed http://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2006-April/msg00112.html The third item listed by google for the word Baobab is the homepage for the Baobab disk usage program: http://www.marzocca.net/linux/baobab.html -- Alan H ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Baobab (nautilus integration)
In our case, when we open the properties dialog for a folder, nautilus shows the total count of this folder. Near this place it could have a button 'Detailed disk space analysis', which would launch baobab to scan the selected folder. Making [the number + a little pie chart icon] clickable would be better - the user can discover it, but it's not such a vital feature that it needs to clutter Nautilus. Ed Mack ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Baobab
On 7/28/06, intech [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But does that mean anything to normal users? Open with some random set of letters that I can't pronounce? It needs to be something clear to The random set of letters, as you said, represents the huge african baobab tree [1], very common in all ancient literature. As the program shows the directory tree of a disk, it was very straight to use the baobab tree as a symbol to that. When I saw for the first time the word ubuntu, I was thinking at a random set of letters, then I have documented myself. Fabio [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baobab ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Baobab
On 7/29/06, Matthias Clasen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Maybe using the generic name here would be better; while Open with Disk usage analyzer is clunky and Analyse disk usage would be much better, it is at least immediately clear what kind of program to expect, which is not really the case for Open with Baobab You're right. Tks Fabio ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Baobab
On 7/27/06, Jeff Waugh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Different point of view: I know an Ubuntu community member is working on an app to help a user clean up big stuff (and known things that take up a lot of room) on their disk. So instead of telling them to go run the weird app that makes them browse a graph of their disk and find stuff themselves, it suggests things based on its knowledge of GNOME disk usage and analysis of other large directories. Hey, wait! I am an Ubuntu Community member too...: https://launchpad.net/people/thesaltydog see also: http://lxer.com/module/newswire/view/49268/index.html ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Baobab
On 7/27/06, Jeff Waugh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I *definitely* think Baobab is a cool tool. But I don't see why it should be (or needs to be) on every user's desktop. Jeff, maybe following links could help in answering your question? http://www.ubuntuforums.org/search.php?searchid=7050176 https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter/Issue6 (see Feature of the Week) http://roozeec.over-blog.com/article-2937003.html http://ubuntu.wordpress.com/2005/10/25/baobab-graphically-analyze-file-trees/ http://www.gnomefiles.org/app.php?soft_id=1002 (see user ratings and downloads) http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-379230-highlight-baobab.html http://forums.fedoraforum.org/showthread.php?t=102127 Consider that baobab is not a simple replacement of du, but it can scan also remote folders on remote servers thru ssh,ftp,smb,http or https, and gives graphical representation of the disk usage by means of a TreeMap graph and (in the next future) a Pie Chart. Fabio ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Baobab
BTW, I just noticed baobab is not HIG compliant: * File-Preferences should be Edit-Preferences; * The file search dialog uses a frame, and has a separator; * Not sure HIG says anything about this, but having an Exit button in the toolbar is weird; also having a check button instead of a toggle button is weird. Cool program otherwise. Regards. On Sex, 2006-07-28 at 11:01 +0200, Fabio Marzocca wrote: On 7/27/06, Jeff Waugh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I *definitely* think Baobab is a cool tool. But I don't see why it should be (or needs to be) on every user's desktop. Jeff, maybe following links could help in answering your question? http://www.ubuntuforums.org/search.php?searchid=7050176 https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter/Issue6 (see Feature of the Week) http://roozeec.over-blog.com/article-2937003.html http://ubuntu.wordpress.com/2005/10/25/baobab-graphically-analyze-file-trees/ http://www.gnomefiles.org/app.php?soft_id=1002 (see user ratings and downloads) http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-379230-highlight-baobab.html http://forums.fedoraforum.org/showthread.php?t=102127 Consider that baobab is not a simple replacement of du, but it can scan also remote folders on remote servers thru ssh,ftp,smb,http or https, and gives graphical representation of the disk usage by means of a TreeMap graph and (in the next future) a Pie Chart. Fabio ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list -- Gustavo J. A. M. Carneiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] The universe is always one step beyond logic. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Baobab
On 7/28/06, Gustavo J. A. M. Carneiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: BTW, I just noticed baobab is not HIG compliant: Current version in CVS HEAD is fully-HIG-compliant. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Baobab
On 7/28/06, Gustavo J. A. M. Carneiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: BTW, I just noticed baobab is not HIG compliant: Gustavo, I have noticed you are using an old version... ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Baobab
On 7/27/06, Jeff Waugh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You are explaining *how* Baobab does what it does, not what the user goal is that we should be addressing. I think you hit the problem, and it has to do with the way Baobab currently presents itself to the user, but I don't think it would be hard to change that presentation. I think the problem is the discoverability of this tool is very poor. I don't think the appropiate way to access it is from the Applications menu. I think just a little bit of Nautilus integration. The use case for the average user of this tool is that they are trying to save space, and find what folder is taking up a lot of space. The traditional approach, as previously mentioned, is to right click on each folder and select properties, which is very time consuming, but thats the best way the user is most likely going to think to do it, because file management takes place in nautilus. If the context menu had an option Analyze Disk Usage when you select one or more folders, and then that automatically opened baobab and then automatically scanned the folders, then it would make itself very useful to users, as they would recognize they don't need to go to properties for each folder. I also think the UI needs a usability review. The preferences dialog seems very confusing, and I think the entire menu could be removed in this tool as _everything_ is duplicated on the toolbar (except preferences which I don't see a point to that dialog anyways)... Also, if it integrates into nautilus as I mentioned, then maybe the Filesystem/Folder/Network buttons could be removed as well... at the very least, why do we need seperate buttons for Folder and Filesystem when Filesystem is in the filechooser? So, in summary, I think the thing to do is give it a good UI/usability review and change the way the application is launched, and I think it would make a great addition to the desktop. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Baobab
On 7/28/06, intech [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: had an option Analyze Disk Usage when you select one or more folders, and then that automatically opened baobab and then automatically scanned the folders, then it would make itself very useful to users, as they would recognize they don't need to go to properties for each folder. If you have properly set up things, when you right-click on a folder from Nautilus, you have Open with Baobab in the context-menu. Fabio ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Baobab
On 7/28/06, intech [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I also think the UI needs a usability review. The preferences dialog seems very confusing, and I think the entire menu could be removed in The preference dialog lists all the mounted devices (as reported by glibtop) and allows users to un-select some of them from a global scan. For instance, if you have a pc with several network disks mounted, this is to avoid/allow scanning over the LAN. If it is not clear, I can change the UI, but this is the very first time I hear about unclarity of the prefs dialog, not even a complain from an user... Anyway, everything in this world is perfectable. Fabio ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Baobab
Hmm, I guess Ubuntu Edgy isn't properly setup _ But does that mean anything to normal users? Open with some random set of letters that I can't pronounce? It needs to be something clear to users that they should go to that option rather then properties when they're hunting for folders that are taking up a lot of space. On 7/28/06, Fabio Marzocca [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 7/28/06, intech [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: had an option Analyze Disk Usage when you select one or more folders, and then that automatically opened baobab and then automatically scanned the folders, then it would make itself very useful to users, as they would recognize they don't need to go to properties for each folder. If you have properly set up things, when you right-click on a folder from Nautilus, you have Open with Baobab in the context-menu. Fabio ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Baobab
quote who=Callum McKenzie Is trying to find where all your disk space has gone a common and useful activity? I say yes[1]. - Callum [1] Although there is a strong argument this should be part of nautilus rather than a stand-alone app. Which means the answer is still the same. - Jeff -- linux.conf.au 2007: Sydney, Australia http://lca2007.linux.org.au/ What do you get when you cross a web server and a hen? Apoache. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Baobab
ons, 26 07 2006 kl. 17:47 -0700, skrev Jeff Waugh: quote who=Emmanuele Bassi The GNOME Utilities package is a small package that GNOME has kept since the 1.x era (and before); it provides some application other than baobab, like the screenshoter, the file search dialog, the dictionary and the system log viewer, that are not sufficiently big to warrant their own package but at the same time are considered part of the basic offering of GNOME itself. I think Davyd's question was more about whether Baobab (or its function) is suitable to be considered part of the basic offering of GNOME itself. I am not convinced it should be there myself. It's a nice little tool, however as the user only has access to a subset of the data stored on the system representing data in the manner Baobab does might not be the best option we have. For me the only reason to use such a tool would be if I'm running out of space and I need to find the best place to start the deleting. Now it strikes me that the correct way to handle that use case is: 1) Available diskspace goes below a set limit*, libnotify me that I'm running out of diskspace. 2) The system offers to clean out the trash for me 3) If I'm still not above the limit then we could present the user with some suggestions for files in his homedir that he has never accessed to be moved to tagged for removal. This sounds dangerous but at least we know nobody ever touched them so it might be safer than having him find big files with baobab without a helpful suggestion and just deleting away. I've seen people remove everything except the .exe file from applications on Windows to save space, since that was all they used - much to their surprise it stopped working. Baobab on as a regular user makes little sense, as a sysadmin on a system with a lot of users it would be very handy to spot which users are storing a lot of irrelevant data in their homedir etc. I don't really think it has a place on a regular desktop, it would be most welcome in a administration application set for GNOME along side Sabayon, pessulus and most of gnome-system-tools though. * calculating this limit can be tricky, no one setting will ever hit the mark for all cases. The reserved block feature in ext3 is a perfect example of how not to do this. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Baobab
quote who=David Nielsen I don't really think it has a place on a regular desktop, it would be most welcome in a administration application set for GNOME along side Sabayon, pessulus and most of gnome-system-tools though. (I think it would make more sense in a future 'Powertools' suite rather than the misnamed 'admin' suite - it really should be 'management'.) - Jeff -- linux.conf.au 2007: Sydney, Australia http://lca2007.linux.org.au/ We are not complete muppets. - Murray Cumming ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Baobab
Hi Jeff, On Wed, 2006-07-26 at 23:59 -0700, Jeff Waugh wrote: quote who=David Nielsen I don't really think it has a place on a regular desktop, it would be most welcome in a administration application set for GNOME along side Sabayon, pessulus and most of gnome-system-tools though. (I think it would make more sense in a future 'Powertools' suite rather than the misnamed 'admin' suite - it really should be 'management'.) I was not aware that du was part of a power suite shell management package. Perhaps I've got the wrong distribution. Let's see... You have searched for usr/bin/du in stable, architecture i386. Found 1 matching files/directories, displaying files/directories 1 to 1. FILE PACKAGE usr/bin/du base/coreutils Nope, it's in coreutils. Baobab is a GUI version of du: it really does nothing more and nothing less; it's a small utility showing the size of your files starting from a folder recursively. But let's see where find (the equivalent of gnome-search-tool) is: You have searched for usr/bin/find in stable, architecture i386. Found 1 matching files/directories, displaying files/directories 1 to 1. FILE PACKAGE usr/bin/find base/findutils Another package, but still in the base Debian (and Debian derivative) installation. Finally, let's see where the dictionary client lives: You have searched for usr/bin/dict in stable, architecture i386. Found 1 matching files/directories, displaying files/directories 1 to 1. FILEPACKAGE usr/bin/dicttext/dict Uh-oh: it seems that the dictionary client is not part of a basic installation. Let's remove *that*, if we want to remove something from gnome-utils, and then let's see what happens. The point is: gnome-utils is a collection of utilities. Over the years has been reduced in size by removing less used/unmaintained programs and by giving other utilities their own space. We have reached the point of having four small-ish applications inside it. If we don't want gnome-utils to grow anymore, we might as well split the package into four smaller packages (gnome-screenshot, gnome-dictionary, gnome-search-tool, gnome-system-log) and then see what can be added to the desktop on a per package basis. Personally, I think it'd be a dumb decision, but I'll glady do the split myself - and then resign from being the maintainer of gnome-dictionary. Ciao, Emmanuele. -- Emmanuele Bassi, E: [EMAIL PROTECTED] W: http://www.emmanuelebassi.net B: http://log.emmanuelebassi.net ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Baobab
quote who=Emmanuele Bassi (I think it would make more sense in a future 'Powertools' suite rather than the misnamed 'admin' suite - it really should be 'management'.) I was not aware that du was part of a power suite shell management package. Perhaps I've got the wrong distribution. Uh, dude, seriously - comparing what we include in gnome-utils (part of our Desktop suite, and generally installed by default on GNOME systems) with the CLI tools shipped in *nix systems doesn't make a lot of sense! We used to jam all kinds of things into GNOME in the 1.x period, whether it made a lot of sense or not - let's not go down that path again. Baobab is a great utility, the kind of thing a lot of users will love when they find it, but it's not something we need to ship as part of the OOTB user experience. - Jeff -- linux.conf.au 2007: Sydney, Australia http://lca2007.linux.org.au/ The two [separate] UIs are both incredibly simple and don't even look like computer programs; they barely need menus. [When combined, they] suddenly look like software. - Havoc Pennington on 'software' design ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Baobab
On Wed, 2006-07-26 at 17:47 -0700, Jeff Waugh wrote: quote who=Emmanuele Bassi The GNOME Utilities package is a small package that GNOME has kept since the 1.x era (and before); it provides some application other than baobab, like the screenshoter, the file search dialog, the dictionary and the system log viewer, that are not sufficiently big to warrant their own package but at the same time are considered part of the basic offering of GNOME itself. I think Davyd's question was more about whether Baobab (or its function) is suitable to be considered part of the basic offering of GNOME itself. I am not convinced it should be there myself. I personally love when a discussion about the release takes place; I love it a little less when it happens three months after I started the discussion, after I received a go ahead from the release team, and especially when the integration has already been done and releases are already out. This is really timely. Not. Ciao, Emmanuele. -- Emmanuele Bassi, E: [EMAIL PROTECTED] W: http://www.emmanuelebassi.net B: http://log.emmanuelebassi.net ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Baobab
On Thu, 2006-07-27 at 01:11 -0700, Jeff Waugh wrote: quote who=Emmanuele Bassi (I think it would make more sense in a future 'Powertools' suite rather than the misnamed 'admin' suite - it really should be 'management'.) I was not aware that du was part of a power suite shell management package. Perhaps I've got the wrong distribution. Uh, dude, seriously - comparing what we include in gnome-utils (part of our Desktop suite, and generally installed by default on GNOME systems) with the CLI tools shipped in *nix systems doesn't make a lot of sense! Neither saying that having a tool that shows how much of your disk your files are taking up belongs to a power tools suite makes a lot of sense, given that on Linux you have had the same tool installed as part of your basic set of commands since 1995 or something like that. We are talking about functionality. Baobab provides a simple functionality that it's lacking from the GNOME suite of programs; it's nice saying that the functionality should be provided by Nautilus, but Nautilus does not provide it in any form - unless you right click on every folder and select Properties. We used to jam all kinds of things into GNOME in the 1.x period, whether it made a lot of sense or not - let's not go down that path again. It makes more sense than having a system log viewer - but hey, we have had that for every release of GNOME 2.x. And, for the love of god: [EMAIL PROTECTED]:/tmp/gnome-utils$ du -sh baobab 764Kbaobab [EMAIL PROTECTED]:/tmp/gnome-utils$ du -sh gnome-dictionary 1.9Mgnome-dictionary [EMAIL PROTECTED]:/tmp/gnome-utils$ du -sh gfloppy/ 1016K gfloppy/ Baobab it's smaller than GFloppy (sources and pixmaps included), and we still ship that useless piece of crap even if it should be Nautilus to provide the same functionality! Ciao, Emmanuele. -- Emmanuele Bassi, E: [EMAIL PROTECTED] W: http://www.emmanuelebassi.net B: http://log.emmanuelebassi.net ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Baobab
Hi Davyd, On Thu, 2006-07-27 at 10:35 +0800, Davyd Madeley wrote: On Wed, 2006-07-26 at 17:47 -0700, Jeff Waugh wrote: quote who=Emmanuele Bassi The GNOME Utilities package is a small package that GNOME has kept since the 1.x era (and before); it provides some application other than baobab, like the screenshoter, the file search dialog, the dictionary and the system log viewer, that are not sufficiently big to warrant their own package but at the same time are considered part of the basic offering of GNOME itself. I think Davyd's question was more about whether Baobab (or its function) is suitable to be considered part of the basic offering of GNOME itself. I am not convinced it should be there myself. As Jeff said. This smacks of KDE/GNOME 1.2 feature creep. Yeap, from four utilities (a dictionary client, a file search tool, a system log viewer and a screenshooter) we passed to five. Surely this reminds me of gnome-utils in the 1.x days. Let's see what was in gnome-utils in the Glorious Days of 1.2: cromagnon edit-menus find-file gcalc gcharmap gdialog gdict gdiskfree gfloppy gnome-find gnome-utils.spec.in gsearchtool gstripchart gtt idl logview mini-utils gcolorsel gfontsel gless gnome-run gpenguin grun gshutdown gsu guname gw idetool notepad splash Well, no shit. We are really letting everything in these days. Please don't get me wrong, it seems like a useful application (little rough around the edges, but that can be fixed), but does it belong in core GNOME? Does it belong to the core GNOME to view your logs? Or to look up words in online dictionaries? Or to create an image of your desktop? I'd say that viewing the size of your files on your disk at a glance has every right to be on the core, until Nautilus provides the exact same functionality. Ciao, Emmanuele. -- Emmanuele Bassi, E: [EMAIL PROTECTED] W: http://www.emmanuelebassi.net B: http://log.emmanuelebassi.net ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Baobab
Hi Jeff; On Thu, 2006-07-27 at 01:22 -0700, Jeff Waugh wrote: quote who=Emmanuele Bassi I personally love when a discussion about the release takes place; I love it a little less when it happens three months after I started the discussion, after I received a go ahead from the release team, and especially when the integration has already been done and releases are already out. This is really timely. Not. (Additionally, we should absolutely be willing to go back on changes we make during the development cycle, otherwise we won't ever be bold enough to try out crazy things with the knowledge that we can revert if needs be. So I can understand your frustration, but it's not very different to other situations we should be prepared to handle.) Don't get me wrong: I was ready to roll out every change. Or even not to commit the merge. That's why I asked first, three months ago. But having received a go ahead and having release five versions without even a *slight hint* that my decision was questionable is frustrating at best. If even a single mail saying we'll keep it in check and decide later would have been useful: I would have kept a finger on the trigger. Now it looks like I did something wrong because I merged a utility without the consent of the community - and that makes me look I'm stupid. Ciao, Emmanuele. -- Emmanuele Bassi, E: [EMAIL PROTECTED] W: http://www.emmanuelebassi.net B: http://log.emmanuelebassi.net ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Baobab
quote who=Emmanuele Bassi If even a single mail saying we'll keep it in check and decide later would have been useful: I would have kept a finger on the trigger. Now it looks like I did something wrong because I merged a utility without the consent of the community - and that makes me look I'm stupid. I don't remember where you sent your mail, but I don't see it in the same terms. You did what you thought correct as the maintainer, and that's what you absolutely should do. It's just taken a while for feedback to return about your choice. I don't think it makes you look stupid for not having the consent of the community - it's just that the community hadn't caught up with what you were doing. :-) - Jeff -- linux.conf.au 2007: Sydney, Australia http://lca2007.linux.org.au/ Itanium: A synthetic market-group tested plasticised square. - Jamie Wilkinson ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Baobab
On Thu, 2006-07-27 at 01:39 -0700, Jeff Waugh wrote: quote who=Emmanuele Bassi Neither saying that having a tool that shows how much of your disk your files are taking up belongs to a power tools suite makes a lot of sense, given that on Linux you have had the same tool installed as part of your basic set of commands since 1995 or something like that. Considering Baobab's approach, ... Which is showing a list after having selected a starting point, so I don't see what's wrong with that approach and why it's so strikingly power-tool-esque... and the problem it solves for users, I think it is entirely reasonable to suggest that it is a 'power tool'. That's where I don't agree. For me the system log viewer is a power tool. My wife doesn't know what logs are and why should they be important (and my wife is a geek who wants me to explain her how the dictionary protocol works); but my wife really would like to know the layout of her Documents folder by size, to know if she has been copying stuff, or if it's time to remove the old cruft. We generally think about delivering a complete, integrated user experience like f-spot rather than a set of random one-shot tools. Then we should remove gnome-utils entirely, that's my point. gnome-utils is composed of one-shot tools by definition (utilities). As I said, splitting gnome-utils into its applications and then submitting for approval each and every one of them is a perfectly fine solution for me. Hell, I'll do the split up in the week end if the release team gives the go ahead and the community wishes so. I have often used the phrase 'greatest commmon factor' to describe the kinds of things we ought to ship in the Desktop suite. It means shipping things that are going to be appropriate for most of the different kinds of users who use GNOME. How does Baobab fit in with that? By providing a functionality not available on the desktop up until now, and providing it integrated in the UI and in the interaction with other tools (gnome-search-tool and nautils). What is the user goal that we are trying to solve by including Baobab, Showing the folder structure from a starting point, in a way that conveys not only the hierarchical layout but also the size of every single node in the structure. and how can we solve those user goals more directly? By having nautilus showing the same layout and having it ordering by the same criteria the same data. If someone wants to code a patch for nautilus 2.18 and have it accepted by nautilus' maintainers, I'll more than gladly remove baobab from gnome-utils. What are our users trying to achieve? They are trying to see how their files are big, and where their disk space went, especially when a notification popup tells them that they have 88% of their disk full. These are the questions we need to answer, and we need good answers to those (even if coming up with them is harder) As you can see, those are easy questions, and they were posed and answered before baobab was included, because I don't want to add stuff willy nilly. Otherwise, a year ago or so, when Davyd proposed the inclusion of gruler inside gnome-utils I would have said yeah, great idea, let's do it. I'm not saying this to diss Baobab or your maintenance of gnome-utils, I just want to make sure that the things we've achieved over the last six years live on in the psyche of new maintainers. As you can see, those things haven't bounced on my thick skull. Those things are why I love GNOME and contribute to it. Ciao, Emmanuele. -- Emmanuele Bassi, E: [EMAIL PROTECTED] W: http://www.emmanuelebassi.net B: http://log.emmanuelebassi.net ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Baobab
On Thu, 2006-07-27 at 09:33 +0100, Emmanuele Bassi wrote: If even a single mail saying we'll keep it in check and decide later would have been useful: I would have kept a finger on the trigger. Now it looks like I did something wrong because I merged a utility without the consent of the community - and that makes me look I'm stupid. Please don't get anyone wrong here. I don't think this reflects on either you or anyone else here. This is simply part of the development process, and I'm just saying that perhaps we should take a step back and reevaluate. --d -- Davyd Madeley http://www.davyd.id.au/ 08B0 341A 0B9B 08BB 2118 C060 2EDD BB4F 5191 6CDA ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Baobab
quote who=Emmanuele Bassi and the problem it solves for users, I think it is entirely reasonable to suggest that it is a 'power tool'. That's where I don't agree. For me the system log viewer is a power tool. Please don't make points by making irrelevant analogies with unrelated tools. I've already noted my opinion of the system log viewer. We generally think about delivering a complete, integrated user experience like f-spot rather than a set of random one-shot tools. Then we should remove gnome-utils entirely, that's my point. gnome-utils is composed of one-shot tools by definition (utilities). Many of which are entirely appropriate in approach and experience. As I said, splitting gnome-utils into its applications and then submitting for approval each and every one of them is a perfectly fine solution for me. For various reasons, I think that makes a lot of sense, but it's unrelated to the topic of Baobab. I have often used the phrase 'greatest commmon factor' to describe the kinds of things we ought to ship in the Desktop suite. It means shipping things that are going to be appropriate for most of the different kinds of users who use GNOME. How does Baobab fit in with that? By providing a functionality not available on the desktop up until now, and providing it integrated in the UI and in the interaction with other tools (gnome-search-tool and nautils). There is a lot of 'functionality' we could jam into the Desktop suite because it's not there already, so using a generic argument here is not fruitful. What is the user goal that we are trying to solve by including Baobab, Showing the folder structure from a starting point, in a way that conveys not only the hierarchical layout but also the size of every single node in the structure. You are explaining *how* Baobab does what it does, not what the user goal is that we should be addressing. If someone wants to code a patch for nautilus 2.18 and have it accepted by nautilus' maintainers, I'll more than gladly remove baobab from gnome-utils. Backwards! I'm not saying this to diss Baobab or your maintenance of gnome-utils, I just want to make sure that the things we've achieved over the last six years live on in the psyche of new maintainers. As you can see, those things haven't bounced on my thick skull. Those things are why I love GNOME and contribute to it. I'm not saying you're stupid, I'm just suggesting that your answers are not correct. - Jeff -- linux.conf.au 2007: Sydney, Australia http://lca2007.linux.org.au/ Patches are like Free Software love letters. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Baobab
Hi Jeff, On Thu, 2006-07-27 at 02:22 -0700, Jeff Waugh wrote: What is the user goal that we are trying to solve by including Baobab, Showing the folder structure from a starting point, in a way that conveys not only the hierarchical layout but also the size of every single node in the structure. You are explaining *how* Baobab does what it does, not what the user goal is that we should be addressing. The user goal is stated in the part you snipped out: +++ What are our users trying to achieve? They are trying to see how their files are big, and where their disk space went, especially when a notification popup tells them that they have 88% of their disk full. +++ Since this commonly is a one shot operation (I don't spend my entire session time doing that, for instance) a one shot application fits the operation profile. Everything descends from this point forward. Ciao, Emmanuele. -- Emmanuele Bassi, E: [EMAIL PROTECTED] W: http://www.emmanuelebassi.net B: http://log.emmanuelebassi.net ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Baobab
quote who=Emmanuele Bassi The user goal is stated in the part you snipped out: +++ What are our users trying to achieve? They are trying to see how their files are big, and where their disk space went, especially when a notification popup tells them that they have 88% of their disk full. +++ Surely their goal is closer to make more room on my disk for stuff I care about rather than see how their files are big and where their disk space went. :-) Since this commonly is a one shot operation (I don't spend my entire session time doing that, for instance) a one shot application fits the operation profile. Everything descends from this point forward. Different point of view: I know an Ubuntu community member is working on an app to help a user clean up big stuff (and known things that take up a lot of room) on their disk. So instead of telling them to go run the weird app that makes them browse a graph of their disk and find stuff themselves, it suggests things based on its knowledge of GNOME disk usage and analysis of other large directories. Which user experience do you think is most helpful and/or delightful? Before saying we don't have this functionality therefore we must put it in, we really need to analyse what the actual problems are for our users, and think critically about how to solve them in helpful and/or delightful ways. I'm not suggesting that's easy, of course. :-) - Jeff -- linux.conf.au 2007: Sydney, Australia http://lca2007.linux.org.au/ Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, here I am: Stuck in the middle with you. - Steeler's Wheel, Stuck in the Middle With You ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Baobab
On Thu, 27 Jul 2006, Callum McKenzie wrote: Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2006 17:33:30 +1200 From: Callum McKenzie [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Davyd Madeley [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: desktop-devel-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Baobab On Thu, 2006-07-27 at 10:35 +0800, Davyd Madeley wrote: As Jeff said. This smacks of KDE/GNOME 1.2 feature creep. Please don't get me wrong, it seems like a useful application (little rough around the edges, but that can be fixed), but does it belong in core GNOME? Is trying to find where all your disk space has gone a common and useful activity? I say yes[1]. What happens next is where the real potential lies. A few good bits of integration with other tools could help to answer users questions and enable them to solve the underlying disk usage problems. Do I have some very large files taking up space? Do I have many small files taking up space? Do I have some programs I can uninstall to save space? Do I need to empty the trash or clear out other transient files? (The second and fourth items tend to overlap.) (My mailbox spam folder is how big? Gigabytes you say, oh dear.) These are not just administrators tasks because any user is forced to do a certain level of maintaince to keep things running smoothly. It may also be possible to adjust Baobab to educate users and give them a better understanding of what is actually happening and how their file system but that would just be a bonus. -- Alan H. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Baobab
Hi Jeff; On Thu, 2006-07-27 at 02:44 -0700, Jeff Waugh wrote: quote who=Emmanuele Bassi The user goal is stated in the part you snipped out: +++ What are our users trying to achieve? They are trying to see how their files are big, and where their disk space went, especially when a notification popup tells them that they have 88% of their disk full. +++ Surely their goal is closer to make more room on my disk for stuff I care about rather than see how their files are big and where their disk space went. :-) I concede that one of the reasons behind looking where the fuck my space went is I was ripping The Lord of the Rings extended edition DVDs and I ran out of space. But another reason is that tiny little notification icon that says dude, you have nearly no space left on the device, which by the way would be cool if had a link saying run the disk usage tool to see if the porn folder is out of control. Since this commonly is a one shot operation (I don't spend my entire session time doing that, for instance) a one shot application fits the operation profile. Everything descends from this point forward. Different point of view: I know an Ubuntu community member is working on an app to help a user clean up big stuff (and known things that take up a lot of room) on their disk. So instead of telling them to go run the weird app that makes them browse a graph of their disk and find stuff themselves, it suggests things based on its knowledge of GNOME disk usage and analysis of other large directories. Which user experience do you think is most helpful and/or delightful? Let's see. Is more helpful a distribution-dependent tool that, for what we know, may well be ready for GNOME 4.0, in a distant future where we all have flying cars, the stable Debian release is 5.0 and GNOME runs on an artificial intelligence that periodically scans my folders and tells me I be better off copying my Music folder on my portable holographic mass storage; or is more helpful something that works right now, albeit with some rough edges that can be smoothed? Okay, that's a rhetorical question for me and for you, but I'd like someone else to comment on this, because frankly this is turning up surreal and I think both of us exposed our own reasons; my task is to maintain gnome-utils at my best and explain my choices, not convince everyone that I have the Ultimate Truth about design principles and software management. I leave this task to others more fitted. Before saying we don't have this functionality therefore we must put it in, we really need to analyse what the actual problems are for our users, and think critically about how to solve them in helpful and/or delightful ways. I'm not suggesting that's easy, of course. :-) I'm thinking of the *actual* problems, and I see a solution that fits well what our users need now; a solution that can be improved from an already working code base. +++ Anyway, we are really going off track - and I don't want another mono-like thread. If the release team decides that baobab does not fit with gnome-utils and the core desktop packages, I'll remove it starting from the next release. Ciao, Emmanuele. -- Emmanuele Bassi, E: [EMAIL PROTECTED] W: http://www.emmanuelebassi.net B: http://log.emmanuelebassi.net ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Baobab
quote who=Emmanuele Bassi Surely their goal is closer to make more room on my disk for stuff I care about rather than see how their files are big and where their disk space went. :-) I concede that one of the reasons behind looking where the fuck my space went is I was ripping The Lord of the Rings extended edition DVDs and I ran out of space. But another reason is that tiny little notification icon that says dude, you have nearly no space left on the device, which by the way would be cool if had a link saying run the disk usage tool to see if the porn folder is out of control. Right - but that tool is not Baobab. Which user experience do you think is most helpful and/or delightful? Let's see. Is more helpful a distribution-dependent tool I see no reason why it would be distribution dependent. that, for what we know, may well be ready for GNOME 4.0, in a distant future where we all have flying cars, the stable Debian release is 5.0 and GNOME runs on an artificial intelligence that periodically scans my folders and tells me I be better off copying my Music folder on my portable holographic mass storage; or is more helpful something that works right now, albeit with some rough edges that can be smoothed? Why do you have to make your point in this way? If you're asking when it is likely to be ready, I believe it is targeted at the October release (but I do not know for sure), and it would be entirely appropriate for us to reach out to that Ubuntu community member and suggest they participate upstream. Before saying we don't have this functionality therefore we must put it in, we really need to analyse what the actual problems are for our users, and think critically about how to solve them in helpful and/or delightful ways. I'm not suggesting that's easy, of course. :-) I'm thinking of the *actual* problems, and I see a solution that fits well what our users need now; a solution that can be improved from an already working code base. I think my descriptions demonstrate that it is not approaching the problem in a user-centric way. Why jam in an existing tool when it is not really what we want to deliver to our users? I think this is a really important discussion, and I'm disappointed that you have approached it like this. - Jeff -- linux.conf.au 2007: Sydney, Australia http://lca2007.linux.org.au/ From my observation, when it comes to porting Linux to a particular device, a point doesn't appear to be necessary. - mpt ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Baobab
quote who=Emmanuele Bassi Anyway, we are really going off track - and I don't want another mono-like thread. If the release team decides that baobab does not fit with gnome-utils and the core desktop packages, I'll remove it starting from the next release. (Additionally, it's not up to the release team to make a decision about this or tell a maintainer what to do - but I would suggest taking feedback like this from other community members seriously.) - Jeff -- linux.conf.au 2007: Sydney, Australia http://lca2007.linux.org.au/ Debian is not as minor as many business end people think. - Alan Cox ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Baobab
You agree with each other and yet you are arguing with each other. This is depressing. This discussion would be better in the form of Wouldn't it be even better if ... and then How can we make that happen?. The other stuff is just demotivating. Murray Cumming [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.murrayc.com www.openismus.com ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Baobab
Hi Jeff;
On Thu, 2006-07-27 at 04:23 -0700, Jeff Waugh wrote:
quote who=Emmanuele Bassi
Anyway, we are really going off track - and I don't want another mono-like
thread. If the release team decides that baobab does not fit with
gnome-utils and the core desktop packages, I'll remove it starting from
the next release.
(Additionally, it's not up to the release team to make a decision about this
or tell a maintainer what to do - but I would suggest taking feedback like
this from other community members seriously.)
I do take them seriously. I am at my most serious, actually.
I also take into account what other users said: that Baobab is a nice
addition to the gnome-utils package and that it has made their
experience with the GNOME desktop better by providing a tool that
avoided them using the terminal.
I have weighted your concerns, as well as the others, and I questioned
my choice of adding baobab before starting with the merge; the idea of
adding it to gnome-utils started at the end of the last release cycle -
it's not something that I planned and executed in two days.
I totally understand your point: Baobab is a little too
technology-oriented and less user-centred than the GNOME standard; maybe
it's even a little bit too young, or it requires a bit more knowledge of
the computer than I'd like; but it can improve - and on these grounds I
added it to gnome-utils, and the addition itself already brought in
improvements in terms of coherency, documentation and interoperability.
Maybe, when nautilus will register the folders the user's opened last
we'll be able to use Baobab to track a list of habitual space hoggers,
and show them first; or maybe we'll find a new way to interact with
nautilus and HAL, and have it track the disk usage, making it a more
kick-ass tool.
I am willing to bet on the possibilities that Baobab offers, as much as
you are willing to bet on the possibilities of the
${UBUNTU_COMMUNITY_MEMBER_PROJECT} that you mentioned (and of which I
didn't know anything, otherwise I would have tracked that too, as I did
with other tools similar to Baobab before choosing it for integration).
That is why I'm also willing to put the final decision on the release
team: I don't want to be a block, by stubbornness or by ignorance, so I
step aside and let who is in charge of the release to decide.
Ciao,
Emmanuele.
--
Emmanuele Bassi, E: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
W: http://www.emmanuelebassi.net
B: http://log.emmanuelebassi.net
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Re: Baobab
På Thu, Jul 27, 2006 at 12:01:46PM +0100, Emmanuele Bassi skrev: Hi Jeff; On Thu, 2006-07-27 at 02:44 -0700, Jeff Waugh wrote: quote who=Emmanuele Bassi They are trying to see how their files are big, and where their disk space went, especially when a notification popup tells them that they have 88% of their disk full. Surely their goal is closer to make more room on my disk for stuff I care about rather than see how their files are big and where their disk space went. :-) I concede that one of the reasons behind looking where the fuck my space went is I was ripping The Lord of the Rings extended edition DVDs and I ran out of space. But another reason is that tiny little notification icon that says dude, you have nearly no space left on the device, which by the way would be cool if had a link saying run the disk usage tool to see if the porn folder is out of control. Note that the new computer panel menu used by Novell in the Suse Linux Desktop shows diskspace usage in the lower right corner (see [1] for a screenshot). Right now it links to gnome-system-monitor (third tab). Would be nice to have that view integrated with baobab. mvrgr, Wouter [1] http://uwstopia.nl/blog/2006/07/alternative-main-menu -- :wq mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] web http://uwstopia.nl i know secrets :: i've never been told -- heather nova signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Baobab
Hi Davyd Interesting to see that approach to portraying disk usage. Personally, however, I feel that anyone really wanting this kind of software would probably prefer to use something like Graphical Disk Map http://gdmap.sourceforge.net/. As an outsider to this whole process, though, I'm not sure I totally understand why applications have to be bundled into packages of vaguely related software like this. Can't distributions make their own minds up? On Wed, 2006-07-26 at 13:21 +0800, Davyd Madeley wrote: Perhaps this has been discussed, and I missed it, but... Looking through the change sets, I see gnome-utils has now included the application Baobab. This is quite a handy utility if you wish to analyse your disk space usage, but I am wondering if this application really forms part of what one would consider 'Desktop'. It very much seems like a 3rd party utility at the moment that has simply been included in the core release. This harks back to the discussion about what should be considered 'Desktop', but for the case of Baobab, perhaps we can distill this down to three fundamental questions: - is it mature enough? - is it useful enough to the majority of our users? and - could this idea be integrated more tightly into existing software that the user is familiar with (eg. making it a Nautilus View) --d -- Alex Jones [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Baobab
Hi; On Wed, 2006-07-26 at 12:29 +0100, Alex Jones wrote: Hi Davyd Interesting to see that approach to portraying disk usage. Personally, however, I feel that anyone really wanting this kind of software would probably prefer to use something like Graphical Disk Map http://gdmap.sourceforge.net/. Treemap view is supported by Baobab too, but it's not its major feature - which is a nice integration with Nautilus and (now) with the Search tool. As an outsider to this whole process, though, I'm not sure I totally understand why applications have to be bundled into packages of vaguely related software like this. Can't distributions make their own minds up? First, do read the thread about the inclusion of Baobab: http://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2006-April/msg00112.html The decision to add it to gnome-utils was due to the fact that Baobab is a little utility, with a code base small enough not to require its own package (it did have its own package, though, as it was already shipped by Ubuntu and Debian before the inclusion); it was also actively maintained at the time of inclusion (the latest release of gdmap is dated December 2005). The GNOME Utilities package is a small package that GNOME has kept since the 1.x era (and before); it provides some application other than baobab, like the screenshoter, the file search dialog, the dictionary and the system log viewer, that are not sufficiently big to warrant their own package but at the same time are considered part of the basic offering of GNOME itself. Ciao, Emmanuele (gnome-utils co-maintainer). -- Emmanuele Bassi, E: [EMAIL PROTECTED] W: http://www.emmanuelebassi.net B: http://log.emmanuelebassi.net ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Baobab
2006/7/26, Alex Jones [EMAIL PROTECTED]: As an outsider to this whole process, though, I'm not sure I totally understand why applications have to be bundled into packages of vaguely related software like this. Can't distributions make their own minds up? GNOME software is (supposed to be) guaranteed to have some things like active maintaining, translations, documentation etc. through concentrated effort, something that individual projects (and their maintainers) might never achieve. But it's true that the definition of GNOME as a whole is a bit complex, and does indeed contain more than just vaguely related software :) -- Kalle Vahlman, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Powered by http://movial.fi Interesting stuff at http://syslog.movial.fi ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Baobab
Hi On Wed, 2006-07-26 at 12:50 +0100, Emmanuele Bassi wrote: Hi; On Wed, 2006-07-26 at 12:29 +0100, Alex Jones wrote: Hi Davyd Interesting to see that approach to portraying disk usage. Personally, however, I feel that anyone really wanting this kind of software would probably prefer to use something like Graphical Disk Map http://gdmap.sourceforge.net/. Treemap view is supported by Baobab too, but it's not its major feature - which is a nice integration with Nautilus and (now) with the Search tool. The treemap in GDMap really is much more usable. Perhaps we should port the logic. I think they call it a cushioned treemap or something, because it manages to make squares (as best it can), not rectangles! As a result, you don't see thick black lines all over the place where a file's representation is of proportions 40:1. Also the colouring is much easier to analyse. Each colour in GDMap represents a file type, so you can see if you have a massive folder of videos somewhere very easily! Just some ideas... As an outsider to this whole process, though, I'm not sure I totally understand why applications have to be bundled into packages of vaguely related software like this. Can't distributions make their own minds up? First, do read the thread about the inclusion of Baobab: http://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2006-April/msg00112.html The decision to add it to gnome-utils was due to the fact that Baobab is a little utility, with a code base small enough not to require its own package (it did have its own package, though, as it was already shipped by Ubuntu and Debian before the inclusion); it was also actively maintained at the time of inclusion (the latest release of gdmap is dated December 2005). The GNOME Utilities package is a small package that GNOME has kept since the 1.x era (and before); it provides some application other than baobab, like the screenshoter, the file search dialog, the dictionary and the system log viewer, that are not sufficiently big to warrant their own package but at the same time are considered part of the basic offering of GNOME itself. I understand. Thanks Ciao, Emmanuele (gnome-utils co-maintainer). -- Alex Jones [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Baobab
Hi; On Wed, 2006-07-26 at 13:18 +0100, Alex Jones wrote: Treemap view is supported by Baobab too, but it's not its major feature - which is a nice integration with Nautilus and (now) with the Search tool. The treemap in GDMap really is much more usable. Perhaps we should port the logic. I think they call it a cushioned treemap or something, because it manages to make squares (as best it can), not rectangles! As a result, you don't see thick black lines all over the place where a file's representation is of proportions 40:1. Also the colouring is much easier to analyse. Each colour in GDMap represents a file type, so you can see if you have a massive folder of videos somewhere very easily! Just some ideas... I am sure that if you file RFEs for these features, baobab's maintainer will be glad to look at them and eventually implement them in the next release cycle. Ciao, Emmanuele. -- Emmanuele Bassi, E: [EMAIL PROTECTED] W: http://www.emmanuelebassi.net B: http://log.emmanuelebassi.net ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Baobab
On Wed, 26 Jul 2006, Davyd Madeley wrote: Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 13:21:50 +0800 From: Davyd Madeley [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Gnome Desktop Development List desktop-devel-list@gnome.org Subject: Baobab Perhaps this has been discussed, and I missed it, but... Inclusion of baobab in gnome-utils http://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2006-April/msg00112.html Found using the following google search: site:mail.gnome.org desktop-devel baobab. (easy once I spelt baobab correctly ;) -- Alan H. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Baobab
On 7/26/06, Alan Horkan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Inclusion of baobab in gnome-utils http://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2006-April/msg00112.html Found using the following google search: site:mail.gnome.org desktop-devel baobab. Nice to see that I'm not the only one who thinks google is the only way to search the mail archives. Perhaps we could get the search box at http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/search to just simply use google since it currently doesn't work? ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Baobab
On 7/26/06, Alex Jones [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The treemap in GDMap really is much more usable. Perhaps we should port the logic. I think they call it a cushioned treemap or something, because it manages to make squares (as best it can), not rectangles! As a result, you don't see thick black lines all over the place where a file's representation is of proportions 40:1. Also the colouring is much easier to analyse. Each colour in GDMap represents a file type, so you can see if you have a massive folder of videos somewhere very easily! We can work on the treemap. But I believe that it will be more useful to have two different graphical representation, the user will select: a treemap (even with rectangles instead of squares) and a ring-chart. We are currently working on this enhancement. Thanks for your suggestions. Fabio ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Baobab
On Wed, 26 Jul 2006, Elijah Newren wrote: Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 10:59:42 -0600 From: Elijah Newren [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Alan Horkan [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Gnome Desktop Development List desktop-devel-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Baobab On 7/26/06, Alan Horkan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Inclusion of baobab in gnome-utils http://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2006-April/msg00112.html Found using the following google search: site:mail.gnome.org desktop-devel baobab. In hindsight that was rather terse and may have come across as rude or patronising which wasn't my intention. Often it is only easy to search for things why you already know what you are looking for. Nice to see that I'm not the only one who thinks google is the only way to search the mail archives. Perhaps we could get the search box at http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/search to just simply use google since it currently doesn't work? A trickle of associated Ad revenue certainly going to the foundation wouldn't do any harm I expect. -- Alan ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Baobab
On Wed, 26 Jul 2006, Alex Jones wrote: Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 12:29:11 +0100 From: Alex Jones [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: desktop-devel-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Baobab Hi Davyd Interesting to see that approach to portraying disk usage. Personally, however, I feel that anyone really wanting this kind of software would probably prefer to use something like Graphical Disk Map http://gdmap.sourceforge.net/. Maybe having an alias for gnome-disk-usage would help users who would like to swap out Boabab for somethinge else? (Also if Gdmap were ever proposed for inclusion I would hope it would use MB by default rather than MiB, as seen in the screenshot.) As an outsider to this whole process, though, I'm not sure I totally understand why applications have to be bundled into packages of vaguely related software like this. Picking something helps focus translators and documentation writers and other contributors. It also gives a fixed point of integration. Ideally it should not prevent other tools being switched out in place of the gnome recommended default. Can't distributions make their own minds up? Past experience would suggest they can all make up their own minds in entirely different ways (gnome system tools are a reasonable example I think). By making a choice gnome encourages standardisation but in some cases distributions will continue to ship their own custom tools. -- Alan H. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Baobab
quote who=Emmanuele Bassi The GNOME Utilities package is a small package that GNOME has kept since the 1.x era (and before); it provides some application other than baobab, like the screenshoter, the file search dialog, the dictionary and the system log viewer, that are not sufficiently big to warrant their own package but at the same time are considered part of the basic offering of GNOME itself. I think Davyd's question was more about whether Baobab (or its function) is suitable to be considered part of the basic offering of GNOME itself. I am not convinced it should be there myself. - Jeff -- linux.conf.au 2007: Sydney, Australia http://lca2007.linux.org.au/ Well, you know us usability folks... We like to believe that the two aren't mutually exclusive. - Calum Benson on power and cleanliness ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Baobab
On Wed, 2006-07-26 at 17:47 -0700, Jeff Waugh wrote: quote who=Emmanuele Bassi The GNOME Utilities package is a small package that GNOME has kept since the 1.x era (and before); it provides some application other than baobab, like the screenshoter, the file search dialog, the dictionary and the system log viewer, that are not sufficiently big to warrant their own package but at the same time are considered part of the basic offering of GNOME itself. I think Davyd's question was more about whether Baobab (or its function) is suitable to be considered part of the basic offering of GNOME itself. I am not convinced it should be there myself. As Jeff said. This smacks of KDE/GNOME 1.2 feature creep. Please don't get me wrong, it seems like a useful application (little rough around the edges, but that can be fixed), but does it belong in core GNOME? --d -- Davyd Madeley http://www.davyd.id.au/ 08B0 341A 0B9B 08BB 2118 C060 2EDD BB4F 5191 6CDA ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Baobab
On Thu, 2006-07-27 at 10:35 +0800, Davyd Madeley wrote: As Jeff said. This smacks of KDE/GNOME 1.2 feature creep. Please don't get me wrong, it seems like a useful application (little rough around the edges, but that can be fixed), but does it belong in core GNOME? Is trying to find where all your disk space has gone a common and useful activity? I say yes[1]. - Callum [1] Although there is a strong argument this should be part of nautilus rather than a stand-alone app. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
