Re: Re: GNOME Games source name

[Adrien Plazas]

Le ven. 3 juin 2016 à 20:29, Sébastien Wilmet  a 
écrit :

Then the gnome-games project can recommend to distros to use another
name for the package, so that it has more chances that it'll be the 
same

name on all distros.


Sure, as said previously in this list: I recommend distros having a 
naming conflit to name the application 'gnome-games-app'.


I though recommend distros not having such a naming collision to keep 
the 'gnome-games' name for the application to stay consistent with the 
upstream, as I see this as more valuable than having consistency across 
distros, which would probably help only a few distro hoppers.


Adrien Plazas
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Re: GNOME Games source name

[Sébastien Wilmet]

On Fri, Jun 03, 2016 at 10:50:04AM -0500, Michael Catanzaro wrote:
> I talked with Adrien and he doesn't want to change the name... so GNOME
> Games it will continue to be. So there's probably not much point to
> continued discussion here.
> 
> I realize this is inconvenient for Debian and other distros that might
> need to pick a different source package name, but the original upstream
> gnome-games module was removed in GNOME 3.8, so it's been three years
> from an upstream perspective and we're fine with reusing the name at
> this point.

Then the gnome-games project can recommend to distros to use another
name for the package, so that it has more chances that it'll be the same
name on all distros.

--
Sébastien
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Re: GNOME Games source name

[Michael Catanzaro]

On Thu, 2016-06-02 at 07:05 -0500, Michael Catanzaro wrote:
> Since this app has not yet been packaged by distros, I think now
> would
> be a great time to change the name (GNOME Video Games is my
> preference). A name change would be painful down the road, but if we
> do
> it now it's not so bad. We discussed more name possibilities a couple
> years ago [1].
> 
> But it's ultimately Adrian's choice. Distros can surely get by
> regardless.
> 
> Michael

Hi,

I talked with Adrien and he doesn't want to change the name... so GNOME
Games it will continue to be. So there's probably not much point to
continued discussion here.

I realize this is inconvenient for Debian and other distros that might
need to pick a different source package name, but the original upstream
gnome-games module was removed in GNOME 3.8, so it's been three years
from an upstream perspective and we're fine with reusing the name at
this point.

Michael
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Re: GNOME Games source name

[Bastien Nocera]

On Fri, 2016-06-03 at 15:53 +0200, Sébastien Wilmet wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 02, 2016 at 03:10:59PM +0200, Bastien Nocera wrote:
> > Yet this is what you're doing. If you want an application to be
> > renamed, you'd better make sure that you can actually come up with
> > a
> > good name, and argue why it is an insurmountable problem to call
> > the
> > package "gnome-games-app" or similar in your distribution.
> 
> gnome-games-center ? Like gnome-control-center.
> 
> Anyway, the plugins of gnome-games will maybe be tricky to package.
> Isn't a Flatpak sufficient? The purpose of Flatpak is to avoid all
> the
> duplicated work of packaging in all the distros. I have always seen
> that
> as a big waste of time. For new apps, does it really make sense to
> package them in the traditional manner?

Again, that's not relevant to the discussion about why the "gnome-
games" tarball name is a problem for distributions.

The flatpak name is "org.gnome.Games". I doubt it conflicts with
anything.
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Re: GNOME Games source name

[Sébastien Wilmet]

On Thu, Jun 02, 2016 at 03:10:59PM +0200, Bastien Nocera wrote:
> Yet this is what you're doing. If you want an application to be
> renamed, you'd better make sure that you can actually come up with a
> good name, and argue why it is an insurmountable problem to call the
> package "gnome-games-app" or similar in your distribution.

gnome-games-center ? Like gnome-control-center.

Anyway, the plugins of gnome-games will maybe be tricky to package.
Isn't a Flatpak sufficient? The purpose of Flatpak is to avoid all the
duplicated work of packaging in all the distros. I have always seen that
as a big waste of time. For new apps, does it really make sense to
package them in the traditional manner?

--
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Re: GNOME Games source name

[Bastien Nocera]

On Thu, 2016-06-02 at 20:43 +0200, Sébastien Wilmet wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 02, 2016 at 03:10:59PM +0200, Bastien Nocera wrote:
> > If you want an application to be
> > renamed, you'd better make sure that you can actually come up with
> > a
> > good name, and argue why it is an insurmountable problem to call
> > the
> > package "gnome-games-app" or similar in your distribution.
> > 
> > gnome-games has been called gnome-games for 2 years. It uses the
> > gnome-
> > games list for communication, it uses the gnome-games bugzilla, it
> > uses
> > the gnome-games git repo.
> 
> gnome-games is not hosted on gnome.org since a long time, the project
> has moved from GitHub to gnome.org recently. I already talked to
> Adrien
> about the naming problem well before it was hosted on gnome.org.
> 
> Is the gnome-games mailing list also for the other games in GNOME? If
> not, the name is misleading. The same for the bugzilla product. Users
> will start filing bugs on gnome-games because, hey, that's what they
> installed on their system.
> 
> Personally, when I develop a new software, I make sure the name that
> I
> choose isn't yet used or at least not widely used in the same domain.
> To
> have good results in a search engine, and find it easily in a package
> manager. That's just common sense but I'm sure you can find it
> written
> somewhere in a list of good practices when writing free software. For
> example:
> http://producingoss.com/en/getting-started.html#choosing-a-name
> 
> which is a recommended reading from the GNOME programming guidelines:
> https://developer.gnome.org/programming-guidelines/stable/additional-
> materials.html.en
> 
> So in the first link you can read:
> 
>   “Is not the same as some other project's name, and does not
> infringe on any trademarks. This is just good manners, as well as
> good
> legal sense. You don't want to create identity confusion. It's hard
> enough to keep track of everything that's available on the Net
> already,
> without different things having the same name.”
> 
> (side note, it's a bit ironic to see gnome.org as an example a bit
> below
> on the same page)

This is a discussion about why the use of the gnome-games name might or
might not be legitimate. That isn't an answer to the questions I asked
however.

> Btw Michael Catanzaro is a member of the release team. In GNOME
> module
> maintainers have a lot of freedom, but maybe it is a good idea to
> know
> the opinion of the release team, since it's the team responsible for
> what GNOME ships. gnome-games (the new one) is not part of GNOME core
> though.

Would be great if you, or somebody else, could answer my questions.
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Re: GNOME Games source name

[Sébastien Wilmet]

On Thu, Jun 02, 2016 at 03:10:59PM +0200, Bastien Nocera wrote:
> If you want an application to be
> renamed, you'd better make sure that you can actually come up with a
> good name, and argue why it is an insurmountable problem to call the
> package "gnome-games-app" or similar in your distribution.
> 
> gnome-games has been called gnome-games for 2 years. It uses the gnome-
> games list for communication, it uses the gnome-games bugzilla, it uses
> the gnome-games git repo.

gnome-games is not hosted on gnome.org since a long time, the project
has moved from GitHub to gnome.org recently. I already talked to Adrien
about the naming problem well before it was hosted on gnome.org.

Is the gnome-games mailing list also for the other games in GNOME? If
not, the name is misleading. The same for the bugzilla product. Users
will start filing bugs on gnome-games because, hey, that's what they
installed on their system.

Personally, when I develop a new software, I make sure the name that I
choose isn't yet used or at least not widely used in the same domain. To
have good results in a search engine, and find it easily in a package
manager. That's just common sense but I'm sure you can find it written
somewhere in a list of good practices when writing free software. For
example:
http://producingoss.com/en/getting-started.html#choosing-a-name

which is a recommended reading from the GNOME programming guidelines:
https://developer.gnome.org/programming-guidelines/stable/additional-materials.html.en

So in the first link you can read:

“Is not the same as some other project's name, and does not
infringe on any trademarks. This is just good manners, as well as good
legal sense. You don't want to create identity confusion. It's hard
enough to keep track of everything that's available on the Net already,
without different things having the same name.”

(side note, it's a bit ironic to see gnome.org as an example a bit below
on the same page)

Btw Michael Catanzaro is a member of the release team. In GNOME module
maintainers have a lot of freedom, but maybe it is a good idea to know
the opinion of the release team, since it's the team responsible for
what GNOME ships. gnome-games (the new one) is not part of GNOME core
though.

--
Sébastien
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Re: GNOME Games source name

[Bastien Nocera]

On Thu, 2016-06-02 at 15:03 +0200, Michael Biebl wrote:
> 2016-06-02 14:38 GMT+02:00 Bastien Nocera :
> > And for gnome-photos you expect a collection of photos?
> 
> Jeremy raised valid concerns which I share and your response are
> snide remarks.
> 
> This is not constructive.

It's not constructive because you're not explaining to this list why
you think gnome-games should be a collection of games, and gnome-photos 
can't be a collection of photos.

> Please take the concerns of your users and downstreams more
> seriously.
> 
> We are here because we love GNOME, not because we want to annoy you.

Yet this is what you're doing. If you want an application to be
renamed, you'd better make sure that you can actually come up with a
good name, and argue why it is an insurmountable problem to call the
package "gnome-games-app" or similar in your distribution.

gnome-games has been called gnome-games for 2 years. It uses the gnome-
games list for communication, it uses the gnome-games bugzilla, it uses
the gnome-games git repo.

If you want the name to be changed, you'd better start arguing why. So
far, it's just a packaging problem, as you already have the discovery
problem with other core gnome applications ("apt-get install gnome-
videos gnome-web" ?)
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Re: GNOME Games source name

[Michael Biebl]

2016-06-02 14:38 GMT+02:00 Bastien Nocera :
> And for gnome-photos you expect a collection of photos?

Jeremy raised valid concerns which I share and your response are snide remarks.

This is not constructive.

Please take the concerns of your users and downstreams more seriously.

We are here because we love GNOME, not because we want to annoy you.

Michael


-- 
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Re: GNOME Games source name

[Bastien Nocera]

On Thu, 2016-06-02 at 13:03 +0200, Michael Biebl wrote:
> 2016-06-02 11:24 GMT+02:00 Bastien Nocera :
> > gnome-games package in your distribution "gnome-games-app". There's
> > already prior art in that case with epiphany, the web browser vs.
> > the
> > game.
> 
> Right, I hope we don't repeat that mistake. That name conflict is
> rather painful and confusing.
> Let's not repeat that if we can avoid it.
> 
> Reading gnome-games, I expect a collection of games, thh.

And for gnome-photos you expect a collection of photos?

>  Given
> Adrien's explanations, I think gnome-game-manager or gnome-video-
> games
> would be much more suitable.

The application is part of the "Finding and Reminding" collection of
applications for GNOME. It would appear as "Games" in GNOME. Once you
namespace it, it's gnome-games.

Call the package what you want, it doesn't matter, users should be able
to install this application through Software.

Or, even better, distributors would ship it in Games, and point towards
the Games section of Software when you have no games installed.
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Re: Re: Re: GNOME Games source name

[Adrien Plazas]

That being said, I would prefer Bastien's suggestion of renaming the 
downstream packages as "gnome-games-app" (leaving the upstream as 
"gnome-games"). It seems like a decent middle ground where everybody 
can be happy.


Adrien Plazas


Le jeu. 2 juin 2016 à 14:30, Adrien Plazas  
a écrit :
It may sound like I'm against changing the application's name, but 
I'm not: I'm against changing it for a weaker name. The name should 
be short, catchy and describe well the application, unfortunately no 
other name suggested  so far did all of these better than GNOME Games 
(GNOME Video Games is too long for example, making it sound dull IMO).


Flatpak for example is a really cool name, it's quite descriptive 
while being short and catchy, and it allowed Jakub to make an awesome 
icon out of it. If a name as good as this one is proposed, I'm not 
against changing.


Adrien Plazas


Le jeu. 2 juin 2016 à 14:07, Kalev Lember  a 
écrit :

On 06/02/2016 02:01 PM, Michael Catanzaro wrote:

On Thu, 2016-06-02 at 13:34 +0200, Kalev Lember wrote:

With my Fedora packager hat on, a rename would make it easier in
Fedora
land as well.


Why? We have a @gnome-games package group, not a package; is it not
possible for a package to have the same name as a package group?


No, not because of the group, but because we used to have a 
gnome-games
package in Fedora in the past. We've now got other packages 
obsoleting

gnome-games and the old package is blocked in the build system and so
on, making it slightly more complicated.

Nothing that can't be overcome of course, but I am sure a new name 
would
make it slightly easier in other distros as well, along the same 
lines.


Kalev
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Re: Re: GNOME Games source name

[Adrien Plazas]

It may sound like I'm against changing the application's name, but I'm 
not: I'm against changing it for a weaker name. The name should be 
short, catchy and describe well the application, unfortunately no other 
name suggested  so far did all of these better than GNOME Games (GNOME 
Video Games is too long for example, making it sound dull IMO).


Flatpak for example is a really cool name, it's quite descriptive while 
being short and catchy, and it allowed Jakub to make an awesome icon 
out of it. If a name as good as this one is proposed, I'm not against 
changing.


Adrien Plazas


Le jeu. 2 juin 2016 à 14:07, Kalev Lember  a 
écrit :

On 06/02/2016 02:01 PM, Michael Catanzaro wrote:

On Thu, 2016-06-02 at 13:34 +0200, Kalev Lember wrote:

With my Fedora packager hat on, a rename would make it easier in
Fedora
land as well.


Why? We have a @gnome-games package group, not a package; is it not
possible for a package to have the same name as a package group?


No, not because of the group, but because we used to have a 
gnome-games

package in Fedora in the past. We've now got other packages obsoleting
gnome-games and the old package is blocked in the build system and so
on, making it slightly more complicated.

Nothing that can't be overcome of course, but I am sure a new name 
would
make it slightly easier in other distros as well, along the same 
lines.


Kalev
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Re: GNOME Games source name

[Kalev Lember]

On 06/02/2016 02:01 PM, Michael Catanzaro wrote:

On Thu, 2016-06-02 at 13:34 +0200, Kalev Lember wrote:

With my Fedora packager hat on, a rename would make it easier in
Fedora
land as well.


Why? We have a @gnome-games package group, not a package; is it not
possible for a package to have the same name as a package group?


No, not because of the group, but because we used to have a gnome-games
package in Fedora in the past. We've now got other packages obsoleting
gnome-games and the old package is blocked in the build system and so
on, making it slightly more complicated.

Nothing that can't be overcome of course, but I am sure a new name would
make it slightly easier in other distros as well, along the same lines.

Kalev
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Re: GNOME Games source name

[Michael Catanzaro]

On Thu, 2016-06-02 at 13:03 +0200, Michael Biebl wrote:
> Right, I hope we don't repeat that mistake. That name conflict is
> rather painful and confusing.
> Let's not repeat that if we can avoid it.
> 
> Reading gnome-games, I expect a collection of games, thh. Given
> Adrien's explanations, I think gnome-game-manager or gnome-video-
> games
> would be much more suitable.

Since this app has not yet been packaged by distros, I think now would
be a great time to change the name (GNOME Video Games is my
preference). A name change would be painful down the road, but if we do
it now it's not so bad. We discussed more name possibilities a couple
years ago [1].

But it's ultimately Adrian's choice. Distros can surely get by
regardless.

Michael

[1] https://mail.gnome.org/archives/games-list/2014-August/msg2.htm
l
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Re: GNOME Games source name

[Michael Catanzaro]

On Thu, 2016-06-02 at 13:34 +0200, Kalev Lember wrote:
> With my Fedora packager hat on, a rename would make it easier in
> Fedora
> land as well.

Why? We have a @gnome-games package group, not a package; is it not
possible for a package to have the same name as a package group?

Michael
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Re: GNOME Games source name

[Kalev Lember]

On 06/02/2016 01:03 PM, Michael Biebl wrote:

2016-06-02 11:24 GMT+02:00 Bastien Nocera :

gnome-games package in your distribution "gnome-games-app". There's
already prior art in that case with epiphany, the web browser vs. the
game.


Right, I hope we don't repeat that mistake. That name conflict is
rather painful and confusing.
Let's not repeat that if we can avoid it.

Reading gnome-games, I expect a collection of games, thh. Given
Adrien's explanations, I think gnome-game-manager or gnome-video-games
would be much more suitable.


With my Fedora packager hat on, a rename would make it easier in Fedora
land as well. It's definitely not something that's absolutely required,
we could use the gnome-games name as well, but a rename would make it a
bit nicer. Also, this would avoid silly downstream fragmentation where
it's called by one name in some distros and by a different name in other
distros that need to rename it.

Kalev
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Re: GNOME Games source name

[Michael Biebl]

2016-06-02 11:24 GMT+02:00 Bastien Nocera :
> gnome-games package in your distribution "gnome-games-app". There's
> already prior art in that case with epiphany, the web browser vs. the
> game.

Right, I hope we don't repeat that mistake. That name conflict is
rather painful and confusing.
Let's not repeat that if we can avoid it.

Reading gnome-games, I expect a collection of games, thh. Given
Adrien's explanations, I think gnome-game-manager or gnome-video-games
would be much more suitable.

Regards,
Michael

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Re: GNOME Games source name

[Bastien Nocera]

On Wed, 2016-06-01 at 21:56 -0400, Jeremy Bicha wrote:
> On Wed, Jun 1, 2016 at 7:47 AM, Adrien Plazas  et> wrote:
> > AFAIK the application is already distributed in Arch since 3.18 and
> > as a
> > Flatpak with the gnome-games name.
> 
> No, it's not in Arch yet really. [1]
> 
> It's funny you bring up Flatpak though, because I think that proves
> you *can* change a project name even after it's been packaged in
> distros.
> 
> > This seems like a distribution problem and one which is specific to
> > Debian
> > and its derivatives, so after more reflection changing the
> > project's name is
> > probably not the solution, especially as nothing prevents Debian to
> > use a
> > different package name like the one suggested by Michael.
> 
> Of course, Ubuntu and Linux Mint are major Debian derivatives. But
> it's not only Debian derivatives as openSUSE did the same thing! [2]
> 
> Not to put words in Michael's mouth, but my reading was that he was
> suggesting a name for your valued project, not for the distro
> metapackage.
> 
> Even if Debian and openSUSE changed the name  of the metapackage
> today, that name would not be available for reuse in those projects
> for *years*. In Debian's case, the old name must be kept with a
> temporary dependency on the new name for at least one stable release.
> 
> While you mentioned confusion to users as a concern, think about the
> confusion when several distros have to maintain a different source
> package name, meaning the package is named differently in their
> repositories and bug trackers than the primary project. I believe
> it's
> early enough that most of the pain is easily avoidable, even though
> it's less convenient now than it would have been a few months ago.

I don't think it should have to change names. You can name the "new"
gnome-games package in your distribution "gnome-games-app". There's
already prior art in that case with epiphany, the web browser vs. the
game.
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Re: GNOME Games source name

[Adrien Plazas]

AFAIK the application is already distributed in Arch since 3.18 and as 
a Flatpak with the gnome-games name. Also this name change causes no or 
next to no problem from the project's POV as the gnome-games name is 
deprecated since at least two years now.


This seems like a distribution problem and one which is specific to 
Debian and its derivatives, so after more reflection changing the 
project's name is probably not the solution, especially as nothing 
prevents Debian to use a different package name like the one suggested 
by Michael.


Cheers,
Adrien Plazas


Le mer. 1 juin 2016 à 5:40, Jeremy Bicha  a écrit :

It's very confusing to have a new app whose source is named
gnome-games [1] since that name was already used not that long ago.[2]

On Debian and derivatives, gnome-games is still in active use [3] as a
metapackage for those who would like to easily install all of the
games in the gnome-apps moduleset.[4]

As far as I know, the new gnome-games has not been picked up by
distros yet, so a rename now should be minimally disruptive. Note: My
objection here's isn't to the display name of "Games" or "GNOME
Games". I believe the source package needs a different name though.

A quick look at the description field of the git repo suggests one
potential new name: gnome-games-launcher.

Thanks,
Jeremy

[1] https://git.gnome.org/browse/gnome-games
[2] https://download.gnome.org/sources/gnome-games/
[3] https://packages.debian.org/unstable/gnome-games
[4] https://wiki.gnome.org/Attic/Games
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Re: GNOME Games source name

[Adrien Plazas]

Also this name change causes no or next to no problem from the 
project's POV


I meant "Also this name collision causes...".

Adrien Plazas


Le mer. 1 juin 2016 à 13:47, Adrien Plazas  
a écrit :
AFAIK the application is already distributed in Arch since 3.18 and 
as a Flatpak with the gnome-games name. Also this name change causes 
no or next to no problem from the project's POV as the gnome-games 
name is deprecated since at least two years now.


This seems like a distribution problem and one which is specific to 
Debian and its derivatives, so after more reflection changing the 
project's name is probably not the solution, especially as nothing 
prevents Debian to use a different package name like the one 
suggested by Michael.


Cheers,
Adrien Plazas


Le mer. 1 juin 2016 à 5:40, Jeremy Bicha  a écrit 
:

It's very confusing to have a new app whose source is named
gnome-games [1] since that name was already used not that long 
ago.[2]


On Debian and derivatives, gnome-games is still in active use [3] as 
a

metapackage for those who would like to easily install all of the
games in the gnome-apps moduleset.[4]

As far as I know, the new gnome-games has not been picked up by
distros yet, so a rename now should be minimally disruptive. Note: My
objection here's isn't to the display name of "Games" or "GNOME
Games". I believe the source package needs a different name though.

A quick look at the description field of the git repo suggests one
potential new name: gnome-games-launcher.

Thanks,
Jeremy

[1] https://git.gnome.org/browse/gnome-games
[2] https://download.gnome.org/sources/gnome-games/
[3] https://packages.debian.org/unstable/gnome-games
[4] https://wiki.gnome.org/Attic/Games
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