Re: New module decisions for 2.26

2009-03-04 Thread Bastien Nocera
On Wed, 2009-03-04 at 21:59 +0100, Wouter Bolsterlee wrote:
> 2009-03-04 klockan 19:33 skrev Bastien Nocera:
> > There's a few more regarding the UI, and strings used which I guess
> > we'll have to live with until 2.28...
> 
> Brasero is really hard to translate (soo many strings, and many are
> similar), and I see no clear path forward except for going through pains to
> translate it... ;)

I rather meant that some bits of UI (in particular ones with strings)
were bad. Nothing to do with translations, at least short-term.

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Re: New module decisions for 2.26

2009-03-04 Thread Wouter Bolsterlee
2009-03-04 klockan 19:33 skrev Bastien Nocera:
> There's a few more regarding the UI, and strings used which I guess
> we'll have to live with until 2.28...

Brasero is really hard to translate (soo many strings, and many are
similar), and I see no clear path forward except for going through pains to
translate it... ;)

— Wouter


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Re: New module decisions for 2.26

2009-03-04 Thread Bastien Nocera
On Wed, 2009-03-04 at 19:18 +0100, Murray Cumming wrote:
> On Thu, 2009-01-22 at 18:18 +, Bastien Nocera wrote:
> > > One option discussed was "to take over nautilus-cd-burner
> > completely"[1]
> > > and the direct answer was that "The idea is to replace completely
> > > N-C-B"[2].
> > 
> > Which wasn't achieved as far as I can see.
> 
> I never saw any further emails about this, which surprises me. Was it
> resolved? Is CD/DVD burning in GNOME 2.26 as easy as it was before?

I filed a number of bugs regarding regressions in the behaviour when
using Brasero compared to nautilus-cd-burner. Those should be fixed
before 2.26.

http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=573789
http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=573790
http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=573791

There's a few more regarding the UI, and strings used which I guess
we'll have to live with until 2.28...

Cheers

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Re: New module decisions for 2.26

2009-03-04 Thread Murray Cumming
On Thu, 2009-01-22 at 18:18 +, Bastien Nocera wrote:
> > One option discussed was "to take over nautilus-cd-burner
> completely"[1]
> > and the direct answer was that "The idea is to replace completely
> > N-C-B"[2].
> 
> Which wasn't achieved as far as I can see.

I never saw any further emails about this, which surprises me. Was it
resolved? Is CD/DVD burning in GNOME 2.26 as easy as it was before?

-- 
Murray Cumming
murr...@murrayc.com
www.murrayc.com
www.openismus.com


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Re: New module decisions for 2.26

2009-01-23 Thread Cosimo Cecchi
On Fri, 2009-01-23 at 12:01 +0100, Pacho Ramos wrote:
> Sorry if it has been already discussed but, where can I find the
> original "New module decisions for 2.26" message. I can only find
> replies to it but I cannot find the main thread:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/desktop-devel-list@gnome.org/index.html

It has been posted to devel-announce-list, see [1].

[1]
http://mail.gnome.org/archives/devel-announce-list/2009-January/msg6.html

Cheers,

Cosimo

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Re: New module decisions for 2.26

2009-01-23 Thread Pacho Ramos
El vie, 23-01-2009 a las 12:01 +0100, Pacho Ramos escribió:
> Sorry if it has been already discussed but, where can I find the
> original "New module decisions for 2.26" message. I can only find
> replies to it but I cannot find the main thread:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/desktop-devel-list@gnome.org/index.html
> 
> 
> Thanks a lot
> 
> ___
> desktop-devel-list mailing list
> desktop-devel-list@gnome.org
> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
> 

Thanks, Josselin and A. Walton have pointed me to desktop-devel-list, I
have just subscribed to it

Best regards

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Re: New module decisions for 2.26

2009-01-23 Thread Andre Klapper
Am Freitag, den 23.01.2009, 12:01 +0100 schrieb Pacho Ramos:
> Sorry if it has been already discussed but, where can I find the
> original "New module decisions for 2.26" message. I can only find
> replies to it but I cannot find the main thread:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/desktop-devel-list@gnome.org/index.html

http://mail.gnome.org/archives/devel-announce-list/2009-January/msg6.html

andre
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Re: New module decisions for 2.26

2009-01-23 Thread Jürg Billeter
On Fri, 2009-01-23 at 12:01 +0100, Pacho Ramos wrote:
> Sorry if it has been already discussed but, where can I find the
> original "New module decisions for 2.26" message. I can only find
> replies to it but I cannot find the main thread:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/desktop-devel-list@gnome.org/index.html

I only see it in the devel-announce-list archive:

http://mail.gnome.org/archives/devel-announce-list/2009-January/msg6.html

Jürg

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Re: New module decisions for 2.26

2009-01-23 Thread Pacho Ramos
Sorry if it has been already discussed but, where can I find the
original "New module decisions for 2.26" message. I can only find
replies to it but I cannot find the main thread:
http://www.mail-archive.com/desktop-devel-list@gnome.org/index.html


Thanks a lot

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Re: New module decisions for 2.26

2009-01-23 Thread Josselin Mouette
Le mercredi 21 janvier 2009 à 19:20 +0100, Vincent Untz a écrit :
>   pulseaudio (external dependency)

Could you please make it clear whether it is acceptable to have a
dependency on libpulse (which is fine), or whether modules can require a
running instance of pulseaudio (which is not) ?

There are good reasons why the desktop modules never required a running
instance of esound, except for some optional functionality; similar
reasons hold for pulseaudio, and as such it is not reasonable to require
it running.

-- 
 .''`.
: :' :  We are debian.org. Lower your prices, surrender your code.
`. `'   We will add your hardware and software distinctiveness to
  `-our own. Resistance is futile.


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Re: New module decisions for 2.26

2009-01-22 Thread Lennart Poettering
On Wed, 21.01.09 20:41, Damien Sandras (dsand...@seconix.com) wrote:

> Le mercredi 21 janvier 2009 à 20:29 +0100, Andre Klapper a écrit :
> > Am Mittwoch, den 21.01.2009, 20:17 +0100 schrieb Damien Sandras:
> > > Le mercredi 21 janvier 2009 à 19:20 +0100, Vincent Untz a écrit :
> > > 
> > > >   pulseaudio (external dependency)
> > > 
> > > Does that mean that pulseaudio problems affecting Ekiga will be fixed
> > > before 2.26 ?
> > 
> > Are they known, are they filed, do you have references in mind that you
> > could post before I have to start searching myself?
> 
> Here are a few ones:

> http://www.pulseaudio.org/ticket/23
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=303951

These two are obsolete (#23 i closed a few minutes ago, see other
mail). What's the point in referring to a closed rhbz bug?

Lennart

-- 
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Re: New module decisions for 2.26

2009-01-22 Thread Lennart Poettering
On Wed, 21.01.09 20:51, Jason D. Clinton (m...@jasonclinton.com) wrote:

> On Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 1:41 PM, Damien Sandras  wrote:
> > Perhaps pulseaudio developers could try ekiga before we write a
> > pulseaudio plugin for it ?
> 
> Lennart's last blog post on the matter[1] indicated that we should be
> using alsa--not writing pulseaudio plugins for our apps. So, it should
> Just Work... This is how I have been working on a private git branch
> for Gnome Games. I didn't see that ticket 23 until now. Quite scary.
> 
> [1] http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/guide-to-sound-apis-followup.html

#23 is obsolete. I tracks a bug in ALSA, not in PA and I thus forgot
to close it when it was fixed in ALSA upstream. It's closed now.

After a rough peek at libpt (the ekiga sound abstraction library) I
see a couple of misuses of the ALSA API. Most problematic is that it
misunderstands the concept of periods: it seems to map the codec's
frame size 1:1 to the period size. That is not a good idea and misses
the point of periods. PA is forced by these small periods settings
into a low-latency behaviour that quite often doesn't work out, due to
a kernel/drivers that make the scheduling latency quite
unreliable. Normal hardware isn't really suffering by the problem
because it usually has much stricter limits on the period/buffer sizes
it supports. 

Now, this stuff should be fixed on two sides: firstly, PA should not
try to fulfill latency requests as blindly anymore and enforce
stricter limits on the latency settings. Right now, we assume that
applications know what they do and we try to fulfill whatever the
clients request -- the client is king. Secondly, libpt should not
misuse periods like this.

There are a couple of other issues where libpt/Ekiga should not do
what it is doing (the enumeration code is really evil, as one
example). That said, the code is actually not bending the ALSA API
that bandly as a lot of other applications are doing it.

If I find the time to I will have a look into making Ekiga work better
on PA in the next weeks.

Oh, and please don't misunderstand my suggestion not to port
applications to the native PA API. If your application already uses an
abstraction API then it makes perfect sense to add a native PA
backend for it too, to avoid the "stacking abstractions"
mess. However, applications that don't want to play the abstraction
game should link exclusively to ALSA for now unless they have a very
specific reason not to. The "safe" ALSA subset is the best abstraction
we have right now.

Lennart

-- 
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Re: New module decisions for 2.26

2009-01-22 Thread Bastien Nocera
On Thu, 2009-01-22 at 18:58 +0100, Andre Klapper wrote:
> Hi Bastien,
> 
> Am Donnerstag, den 22.01.2009, 17:09 + schrieb Bastien Nocera:
> > => nautilus-cd-burner developers are trying to find a nice way to say
> > that they're not happy about having been completely blocked out of the
> > process, and not receiving a single mail about that deprecation, which
> > was never discussed in the module acceptance discussions.
> 
> One option discussed was "to take over nautilus-cd-burner completely"[1]
> and the direct answer was that "The idea is to replace completely
> N-C-B"[2].

Which wasn't achieved as far as I can see.

> As Jon and you are subscribed to d-d-l I was confused to see you talking
> about yourself in the third person ("Did you talk to the
> nautilus-cd-burner devels about it?"[3])

Obviously my attempt at humour was lost on you... I was mimicking the
style of the original e-mail.

>  and am a bit surprised that you
> feel blocked out.

I feel blocked out in the sense that the release team didn't contact
either of Jon or myself about the deprecation, or asking for our opinion
on the matter. I feel that the current solution is being forced upon us.

FWIW, I never received an answer to my last question, see at the bottom
of:
http://www.mail-archive.com/desktop-devel-list@gnome.org/msg15147.html

This is what I received before brasero created their own library:
http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=509508

A never finished patch with loads of memory leaks.

I believe this is the first case of a module being booted out of the
release where the maintainers of the module replacing it weren't
maintainers of the original one. And I can't say I'm pleased about how
it was done.

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Re: New module decisions for 2.26

2009-01-22 Thread Andre Klapper
Hi Bastien,

Am Donnerstag, den 22.01.2009, 17:09 + schrieb Bastien Nocera:
> => nautilus-cd-burner developers are trying to find a nice way to say
> that they're not happy about having been completely blocked out of the
> process, and not receiving a single mail about that deprecation, which
> was never discussed in the module acceptance discussions.

One option discussed was "to take over nautilus-cd-burner completely"[1]
and the direct answer was that "The idea is to replace completely
N-C-B"[2].
As Jon and you are subscribed to d-d-l I was confused to see you talking
about yourself in the third person ("Did you talk to the
nautilus-cd-burner devels about it?"[3]) and am a bit surprised that you
feel blocked out.

andre

[1] http://www.mail-archive.com/desktop-devel-list@gnome.org/msg14458.html
[2] http://www.mail-archive.com/desktop-devel-list@gnome.org/msg14459.html
[3] http://www.mail-archive.com/desktop-devel-list@gnome.org/msg14460.html
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Re: New module decisions for 2.26

2009-01-22 Thread Bastien Nocera
On Wed, 2009-01-21 at 19:20 +0100, Vincent Untz wrote:
> Hi,

> Details
> ===
> 
>  + brasero (desktop)
>- mixed feelings in the community and in the release team
>- reactive development team
>- directly conflicts with nautilus-cd-burner feature-wise, so if
>  accepted, nautilus-cd-burner has to be deprecated
>- fills a need that has been felt by many users
>- used by default on several distributions already
>=> approved
>=> nautilus-cd-burner is therefore deprecated

=> nautilus-cd-burner developers are trying to find a nice way to say
that they're not happy about having been completely blocked out of the
process, and not receiving a single mail about that deprecation, which
was never discussed in the module acceptance discussions.

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Re: New module decisions for 2.26

2009-01-22 Thread Bastien Nocera
On Thu, 2009-01-22 at 11:42 +0100, Frederic Peters wrote:
> Hi Emmanuel,
> 
> > Le mercredi 21 janvier 2009 à 19:20 +0100, Vincent Untz a écrit :
> > >  + brasero (desktop)
> > >- mixed feelings in the community and in the release team
> > >- reactive development team
> > >- directly conflicts with nautilus-cd-burner feature-wise, so if
> > >  accepted, nautilus-cd-burner has to be deprecated
> > >- fills a need that has been felt by many users
> > >- used by default on several distributions already
> > >=> approved
> > >=> nautilus-cd-burner is therefore deprecated
> > 
> > I'm not sure to understand what exactly happens here. Does brasero
> > offers the same desktop integration for the basic cd burning needs as
> > nautilus-cd-burner (right-click for iso burning, file to burn list
> > building using nautilus windows, nice and simple burning dialog,
> > shortcut to nautlus cd creation window on the desktop when a blank cd is
> > inserted) ?
> 
> As integration was a concern raised when Brasero was first proposed
> they have working great to address the issues and added a Nautilus
> extension, just like nautilus-cd-burner (actually it is much of the
> same code), so integration features are not removed in favour of a
> standalone application.

There's still some loss of integration.

Instead of offering the burn:/// location in nautilus, brasero will
launch its stand-alone application for inserted blank CDs.

http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=568693


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Re: New module decisions for 2.26

2009-01-22 Thread Emmanuel Pacaud
Le jeudi 22 janvier 2009 à 11:42 +0100, Frederic Peters a écrit :
> > Le mercredi 21 janvier 2009 à 19:20 +0100, Vincent Untz a écrit :
> > >  + brasero (desktop)
> > >- mixed feelings in the community and in the release team
> > >- reactive development team
> > >- directly conflicts with nautilus-cd-burner feature-wise, so if
> > >  accepted, nautilus-cd-burner has to be deprecated
> > >- fills a need that has been felt by many users
> > >- used by default on several distributions already
> > >=> approved
> > >=> nautilus-cd-burner is therefore deprecated
> > 
> > I'm not sure to understand what exactly happens here. Does brasero
> > offers the same desktop integration for the basic cd burning needs as
> > nautilus-cd-burner (right-click for iso burning, file to burn list
> > building using nautilus windows, nice and simple burning dialog,
> > shortcut to nautlus cd creation window on the desktop when a blank cd is
> > inserted) ?
> 
> As integration was a concern raised when Brasero was first proposed
> they have working great to address the issues and added a Nautilus
> extension, just like nautilus-cd-burner (actually it is much of the
> same code), so integration features are not removed in favour of a
> standalone application.

Oh, good news then. Thanks.

Emmanuel.

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Re: New module decisions for 2.26

2009-01-22 Thread Frederic Peters
Hi Emmanuel,

> Le mercredi 21 janvier 2009 à 19:20 +0100, Vincent Untz a écrit :
> >  + brasero (desktop)
> >- mixed feelings in the community and in the release team
> >- reactive development team
> >- directly conflicts with nautilus-cd-burner feature-wise, so if
> >  accepted, nautilus-cd-burner has to be deprecated
> >- fills a need that has been felt by many users
> >- used by default on several distributions already
> >=> approved
> >=> nautilus-cd-burner is therefore deprecated
> 
> I'm not sure to understand what exactly happens here. Does brasero
> offers the same desktop integration for the basic cd burning needs as
> nautilus-cd-burner (right-click for iso burning, file to burn list
> building using nautilus windows, nice and simple burning dialog,
> shortcut to nautlus cd creation window on the desktop when a blank cd is
> inserted) ?

As integration was a concern raised when Brasero was first proposed
they have working great to address the issues and added a Nautilus
extension, just like nautilus-cd-burner (actually it is much of the
same code), so integration features are not removed in favour of a
standalone application.


Cheers,
Frederic
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Re: New module decisions for 2.26

2009-01-22 Thread Frederic Peters
Hello Davyd,

Davyd Madeley wrote:

> >   brasero (desktop suite)
> 
> This may have been covered elsewhere, but does Right-Click Burn Disc
> still work for ISO images?

Yes Brasero does provide a 'Write to Disc' menu item when
right-clicking on ISO images.


Cheers,
Frederic
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Re: New module decisions for 2.26

2009-01-22 Thread Emmanuel Pacaud
Hi,

Le mercredi 21 janvier 2009 à 19:20 +0100, Vincent Untz a écrit :
>  + brasero (desktop)
>- mixed feelings in the community and in the release team
>- reactive development team
>- directly conflicts with nautilus-cd-burner feature-wise, so if
>  accepted, nautilus-cd-burner has to be deprecated
>- fills a need that has been felt by many users
>- used by default on several distributions already
>=> approved
>=> nautilus-cd-burner is therefore deprecated

I'm not sure to understand what exactly happens here. Does brasero
offers the same desktop integration for the basic cd burning needs as
nautilus-cd-burner (right-click for iso burning, file to burn list
building using nautilus windows, nice and simple burning dialog,
shortcut to nautlus cd creation window on the desktop when a blank cd is
inserted) ?

Emmanuel.



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Re: New module decisions for 2.26

2009-01-22 Thread Felipe Contreras
On Thu, Jan 22, 2009 at 10:43 AM, Damien Sandras  wrote:
> Le mercredi 21 janvier 2009 à 20:51 -0600, Jason D. Clinton a écrit :
>> On Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 1:41 PM, Damien Sandras  wrote:
>> > Perhaps pulseaudio developers could try ekiga before we write a
>> > pulseaudio plugin for it ?
>>
>> Lennart's last blog post on the matter[1] indicated that we should be
>> using alsa--not writing pulseaudio plugins for our apps. So, it should
>> Just Work... This is how I have been working on a private git branch
>> for Gnome Games. I didn't see that ticket 23 until now. Quite scary.
>>
>> [1] http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/guide-to-sound-apis-followup.html
>
> Ah, I ignored that. I would say that it is a sane point of view...

The "safe" ALSA, not just ALSA in general.

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Re: New module decisions for 2.26

2009-01-22 Thread Damien Sandras
Le mercredi 21 janvier 2009 à 20:51 -0600, Jason D. Clinton a écrit :
> On Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 1:41 PM, Damien Sandras  wrote:
> > Perhaps pulseaudio developers could try ekiga before we write a
> > pulseaudio plugin for it ?
> 
> Lennart's last blog post on the matter[1] indicated that we should be
> using alsa--not writing pulseaudio plugins for our apps. So, it should
> Just Work... This is how I have been working on a private git branch
> for Gnome Games. I didn't see that ticket 23 until now. Quite scary.
> 
> [1] http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/guide-to-sound-apis-followup.html

Ah, I ignored that. I would say that it is a sane point of view...
-- 
 _ Damien Sandras
(o-  
//\Ekiga Softphone : http://www.ekiga.org/
v_/_   Be IP   : http://www.beip.be/
   FOSDEM  : http://www.fosdem.org/
   SIP Phone   : sip:dsand...@ekiga.net
   

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Re: New module decisions for 2.26

2009-01-21 Thread Davyd Madeley
On Wed, 2009-01-21 at 19:20 +0100, Vincent Untz wrote:
>   brasero (desktop suite)

This may have been covered elsewhere, but does Right-Click Burn Disc
still work for ISO images?

--d

-- 
Davyd Madeley

http://www.davyd.id.au/
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Re: New module decisions for 2.26

2009-01-21 Thread Srinivasa Ragavan
Hello Guys,

On Wed, 2009-01-21 at 19:20 +0100, Vincent Untz wrote:
>  + evolution-mapi (desktop)
>- depends on libmapi, which depends samba4
>- libmapi 0.8.0 will be released in the next few days
>- provides support for exchange 2007 (which evolution-exchange
>  doesn't do)
>- some features might not be ready for 2.26 (Password Expiry, Send
>  Options, Out-of-Office)
>- possible to choose between evolution-exchange and evolution-mapi
> at
>  runtime
>=> approved
>   We'll keep evolution-exchange in 2.26 if possible, to avoid
>   regressions for people who do not require exchange 2007 support.
> 
evolution-exchange should still remain for quite some time. Though
technically evolution-mapi can connect from Exchange 5.5 till Exchange
2007, we currently work/test against and support Exchange 2007 only for
now. We would be expanding our work to support all versions once we are
done with our pending feature list for evolution-mapi. Also
Evolution-mapi doesn't match all the features evolution-exchange offers
today. The biggest reason why Exchange 2000/2003 user prefer the older
provider is that, the OWA stays outside the firewall and MAPI (backend)
server stays behind the firewall. So it makes sense to keep both atleast
for a time, till Exchange 2000/2003 servers are moved to Exchange
2007/Other solution to avoid loosing a specific bunch of users from
GNOME/Evolution. 

-Srini.

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Re: New module decisions for 2.26

2009-01-21 Thread Jason D. Clinton
On Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 1:41 PM, Damien Sandras  wrote:
> Perhaps pulseaudio developers could try ekiga before we write a
> pulseaudio plugin for it ?

Lennart's last blog post on the matter[1] indicated that we should be
using alsa--not writing pulseaudio plugins for our apps. So, it should
Just Work... This is how I have been working on a private git branch
for Gnome Games. I didn't see that ticket 23 until now. Quite scary.

[1] http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/guide-to-sound-apis-followup.html
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Re: New module decisions for 2.26

2009-01-21 Thread Damien Sandras
Le mercredi 21 janvier 2009 à 20:29 +0100, Andre Klapper a écrit :
> Am Mittwoch, den 21.01.2009, 20:17 +0100 schrieb Damien Sandras:
> > Le mercredi 21 janvier 2009 à 19:20 +0100, Vincent Untz a écrit :
> > 
> > >   pulseaudio (external dependency)
> > 
> > Does that mean that pulseaudio problems affecting Ekiga will be fixed
> > before 2.26 ?
> 
> Are they known, are they filed, do you have references in mind that you
> could post before I have to start searching myself?

Here are a few ones:
https://bugs.launchpad.net/pulseaudio/+bug/112948
http://osdir.com/ml/audio.pulseaudio.general/2007-04/msg00011.html
http://forum.ubuntu-fr.org/viewtopic.php?id=237591
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=303951
http://www.pulseaudio.org/ticket/23
http://www.pulseaudio.org/ticket/464

About every 2 days, someone complains that he had to remove pulseaudio
to use Ekiga on our mailing list.

Perhaps pulseaudio developers could try ekiga before we write a
pulseaudio plugin for it ?

I have never opened a ticket myself because I do not use pulseaudio yet.
-- 
 _ Damien Sandras
(o-  
//\Ekiga Softphone : http://www.ekiga.org/
v_/_   Be IP   : http://www.beip.be/
   FOSDEM  : http://www.fosdem.org/
   SIP Phone   : sip:dsand...@ekiga.net
   

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Re: New module decisions for 2.26

2009-01-21 Thread Andre Klapper
Am Mittwoch, den 21.01.2009, 20:17 +0100 schrieb Damien Sandras:
> Le mercredi 21 janvier 2009 à 19:20 +0100, Vincent Untz a écrit :
> 
> >   pulseaudio (external dependency)
> 
> Does that mean that pulseaudio problems affecting Ekiga will be fixed
> before 2.26 ?

Are they known, are they filed, do you have references in mind that you
could post before I have to start searching myself?

andre
-- 
 mailto:ak...@gmx.net | failed
 http://www.iomc.de/  | http://blogs.gnome.org/aklapper

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Re: New module decisions for 2.26

2009-01-21 Thread Damien Sandras
Hi,

Le mercredi 21 janvier 2009 à 19:20 +0100, Vincent Untz a écrit :

[...]

>   pulseaudio (external dependency)

Does that mean that pulseaudio problems affecting Ekiga will be fixed
before 2.26 ?
-- 
 _ Damien Sandras
(o-  
//\Ekiga Softphone : http://www.ekiga.org/
v_/_   Be IP   : http://www.beip.be/
   FOSDEM  : http://www.fosdem.org/
   SIP Phone   : sip:dsand...@ekiga.net
   

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