Re: Planning Gnome Scan Inclusion

2006-09-15 Thread Mark Rosenstand
On Fri, 2006-09-08 at 14:54 +0200, Étienne Bersac wrote:
> Hello all !
> 
> Since march, i'm designing and developping a Gnome Scan infrastructure.
> See http://home.gna.org/gnomescan/index and Google "gnome scan" search
> result in general. I've been sponsored by Google do work on this project
> this summer. Mentored by Vincent Untz.
> 
> The project is far from integrated with the Gnome development process.
> Because of its early stage. I'm waiting for Gnome SVN to drop Gna!
> hosting (nice service anyway). But, as it become mature, i want to
> include it officialy in the Gnome Desktop.

I'd be nice if the module (when entering GNOME infrastructure) would be
called gnome-scan instead of gnomescan, since that's how all the other
modules (at least the ones I use) are named.

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Re: Planning Gnome Scan Inclusion

2006-09-10 Thread Vincent Untz
Le vendredi 08 septembre 2006, à 14:54, Étienne Bersac a écrit :
> But that's a huge work. I plan to implement the dbus service only for
> 2.20. However, that would be nice to have a kind of preliminary Gnome
> scan software in 2.18.
> 
> A kind of RoadMap should be :
> 
>   * 2.18
>   * fixed area
>   * preview zoom
>   * x & y resolution
>   * mass acquisition
>   * multipage PDF
>   * 2.20
>   * hal scanner support
>   * dbus service
>   * buttons handling
>   * easy scanner sharing (capplet, avahi publishing)
> 
> Later version will see OCR, fax, etc.
> 
> For 2.20, i want to split gnomescan in two parts : gnomescan and
> flegita. gnomescan will consists of libgnomescan, libgnomescanui, dbus
> service and capplet. Flegita consists of flegita, flegita-gimp and will
> receive other plugins.
> 
> A key point is : does it worth shipping a pure library base app or
> should we push for a service + library based app for 2.20. Do you want
> gnome scan for 2.18 ?

Rock!
Etienne, can we consider this as an official request to include
gnomescan/flegita in the desktop for 2.18? :-)

If yes, then can you update
http://live.gnome.org/TwoPointSeventeen/Desktop ?

Thanks,

Vincent

-- 
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Re: Planning Gnome Scan Inclusion

2006-09-10 Thread Vincent Untz
Le dimanche 10 septembre 2006, à 11:35, David Zeuthen a écrit :
> This should all be controlled by gconf keys so we can reap the benefits
> of lockdown etc. Also, when we get infrastructure for running policy
> daemons (such as g-h-m, g-p-m, nm-applet etc.) when no-one is logged in
> this is also good for the "scanner server" use-case. With this, one
> simply installs a GNOME distro on a box, sets "[X] Share scanners on the
> network" as system default [2] and there you go! [3]

[snip]

> [2] : I suspect that the UI bits for desktop policy daemons such as
> g-p-m, g-h-m and nm-applet will have "Set these settings as system-wide"
> and if the user clicks it these settings will be copied to /etc/gconf,
> e.g. the system-wide location. Of course the user will have to auth in
> this case (as himself or as root) but that's one reason I started
> writing PolicyKit.. Anyway, off-topic in this mail...

David, you rock.

> [3] : in the same vein, it would be nice for g-h-m to have a feature to
> share some/all (external, maybe also internal) storage drives using
> Avahi. Sounds like a fun and small project for someone to hack on,
> possibly it needs some integration with e.g. gnome-user-share. Would be
> a really nice feature though, would help extend our (GNOME) reach even
> more into the data center and the world of sys admins.

(I filed the bug in bugzilla to not lose the idea:
http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=355382)

Vincent

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Re: Is anyone looking at the accounts list? (was Re: Planning Gnome Scan Inclusion)

2006-09-10 Thread Elijah Newren
On 9/10/06, Olav Vitters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Sun, Sep 10, 2006 at 05:55:48PM +0200, Étienne Bersac wrote:
> > How to use gnome bugzilla for gnomescan ?
>
> http://live.gnome.org/Bugsquad/ForMaintainers
>
> (should probably be linked more)

I added a link to that page from
http://live.gnome.org/MaintainersCorner (which in turn is linked from
the official schedule, so hopefully people will be more likely to find
this page).

Cheers,
Elijah
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Re: Planning Gnome Scan Inclusion

2006-09-10 Thread David Zeuthen
On Sun, 2006-09-10 at 18:47 +0200, Étienne Bersac wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> I don't understand why share a scanner per user. If multiple session are
> open. Do we see multiple scanner in avahi ? That does not make any
> sense !

If I plug two scanners into my machine I would expect Avahi to announce
both scanners as separate entities. And with suitable names too. E.g.
"Huge A3 scanner at 3rd floor design lab" and "Even huger A2 scanner at
3rd floor design lab". 

(Come to think of this, this is not an odd requirement at all. Suppose
I'm a small design company, I buy a dedicated machine and attach my two
scanners to it.)

Don't you think this is the user experience we want?

And, sure, Avahi can advertise multiple instances of the same service on
different ports. Just look for yourself; e.g. if I have two users 'foo'
and 'bar' logged in and both use gnome-user-share, Avahi will advertise
both "foo's public files" and "bar's public files". And each have a
httpd process running using a different port. Each running in the
respective user session. It's just the way things work if I understand
Zeroconf/Avahi correctly.

> I don't want to be crappy, but i feel sane people behavior similar XF86
> people. Trust me, they will *never* accept such patch. They didn't even
> respond to the announce of Gnome Scan. (Seems xsane is the ultimate sane
> frontend for such people).

Well, I didn't follow that thread but sometimes that is just how free
software works. Most free software maintainers are grumpy by nature so
they like to take a wait-and-see approach. I'm sure, however, that they
are interested in better desktop integration with their project, after
all what you're doing is in a big way good for them giving GNOME's wide
usages.

> I really don't want to fork alone saned. Also because i will also fork
> sane itself if i do so !
> 
> Really, as long as i'm alone working on that, i want to just write a
> SANE frontend. Just reusing what exists as far as possible. Once i know
> better how work SANE, once i will dive into SANE code, i will send
> patche and see if the amount of patchs worth a fork. I really don't want
> to fork such project.

Oh, I never said "fork all of SANE" but I can see it might have come
across as it. Sorry about that, definitely didn't mean it that way.

Btw, looking at saned, it's not a lot of code

 
http://cvs.alioth.debian.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/sane-backends/frontend/saned.c?rev=1.40&content-type=text/x-cvsweb-markup&cvsroot=sane

and I can't see why the SANE people would reject such a feature request
if we just are careful about stating why we want this. It's not like
we're asking them to change the world, we're just asking for features
that makes it easy to do very nice desktop integration. I can't see why
they would object to that.

> Also, note that the first goal is hal. Then sharing. And all of that is
> for 2.20.

Sounds good. I really appreciate you're working on this. Let me know if
I can be of any help, either by helping with the HAL integration or the
scanner sharing stuff / talking to SANE developers.

Keep rocking!

Cheers,
David


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Re: Planning Gnome Scan Inclusion

2006-09-10 Thread Étienne Bersac
Hello,

I don't understand why share a scanner per user. If multiple session are
open. Do we see multiple scanner in avahi ? That does not make any
sense !

I don't want to be crappy, but i feel sane people behavior similar XF86
people. Trust me, they will *never* accept such patch. They didn't even
respond to the announce of Gnome Scan. (Seems xsane is the ultimate sane
frontend for such people).

I really don't want to fork alone saned. Also because i will also fork
sane itself if i do so !

Really, as long as i'm alone working on that, i want to just write a
SANE frontend. Just reusing what exists as far as possible. Once i know
better how work SANE, once i will dive into SANE code, i will send
patche and see if the amount of patchs worth a fork. I really don't want
to fork such project.

Also, note that the first goal is hal. Then sharing. And all of that is
for 2.20.

Étienne.
-- 
Verso l'Alto !

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Re: Planning Gnome Scan Inclusion

2006-09-10 Thread Étienne Bersac
Don't know. Just know that it failed on July.
-- 
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Re: Planning Gnome Scan Inclusion

2006-09-10 Thread David Zeuthen
On Sun, 2006-09-10 at 17:52 +0200, Étienne Bersac wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> > Ideally, you just patch gnome-hardware-manager [1] to share the scanner,
> > e.g. the g-h-m UI exposes an option in the UI
> > 
> >  [ ] Share scanners on the network
> 
> The problem is : addon has to configure saned (which is systemwide) in
> order to share devices. And that need a xinetd restart or similar. 

No no no, this is not necessary. And it's really fugly. So, g-h-m should
be able to start a saned process for every scanner that would be shared
in the desktop session. This will work because you already privileges to
access the hardware.

Ideally saned wouldn't need a configuration file, ideally you'd just
pass whatever options you need to saned. This would include the

 1) what scanner to share; and
 2) what TCP port to listen to

and maybe more. No configuration file needed. Configuration files are
just bad, it's from the days when people used a shell to get work done.

So, looking at 

 http://gd.tuwien.ac.at/linuxcommand.org/man_pages/saned1.html

it seems this is not exactly the case though it's close. So if I was
you, I'd either 

 a) send mail to the SANE people asking them for a saned that does
what you want. May be easier if you attach a patch :-)

 b) If a) doesn't work just fork saned to do the right thing and include
that in g-h-m

> I
> don't think that doing this in session space is good. 

Doing things like this in the desktop session is the only sane (pun
intended) way; there is simply no excuse for doing things like this
system-wide, it's just broken and doesn't work for a lot of cases,
especially not if you have more than one scanner attached. There's the
security angle too, you really really really don't want saned to run as
root if you can avoid it. This is because it listens on a network port.

Plus, I would certainly object strongly to a HAL addon that does crazy
things like rewriting inetd.conf and restarting other daemons.
Especially when the fix is easy, just ask the SANE developers for a),
I'm sure (I hope at least) they can see it's the right thing to do.

> Does users share
> printers in a per session basis ?

Sure, printers should too, everything is moving to user-owned
preferences (w/ lock-down) and moving all policy / configuration to the
desktop session. It's the only way to do things right. Doing things
system-wide is just a bad thing we picked up from the UNIX way of doing
things. It's just wrong for so many things [1] :-)

(that said, I'm not sure the CUPS people agree but we all have different
views on how a well-designed system looks.)

Does this make sense? I hope it doesn't scare you off too much, I just
think it's the right thing to do. What do you think?

David

[1] : though obviously it's right for some things such as sshd


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Re: Planning Gnome Scan Inclusion

2006-09-10 Thread Davyd Madeley
On Sun, Sep 10, 2006 at 05:47:47PM +0200, ?tienne Bersac wrote:
> 
> I know. I'll wait for the massive SVN migration.

When is that happening, by the way?

--d

-- 
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http://www.davyd.id.au/
08B0 341A 0B9B 08BB 2118  C060 2EDD BB4F 5191 6CDA
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Re: Is anyone looking at the accounts list? (was Re: Planning Gnome Scan Inclusion)

2006-09-10 Thread Olav Vitters
On Sun, Sep 10, 2006 at 05:55:48PM +0200, Étienne Bersac wrote:
> How to use gnome bugzilla for gnomescan ?

http://live.gnome.org/Bugsquad/ForMaintainers

(should probably be linked more)

-- 
Regards,
Olav
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Re: Is anyone looking at the accounts list? (was Re: Planning Gnome Scan Inclusion)

2006-09-10 Thread Étienne Bersac
How to use gnome bugzilla for gnomescan ?

Étienne.
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Verso l'Alto !

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Re: Planning Gnome Scan Inclusion

2006-09-10 Thread Étienne Bersac
Hi,

> Ideally, you just patch gnome-hardware-manager [1] to share the scanner,
> e.g. the g-h-m UI exposes an option in the UI
> 
>  [ ] Share scanners on the network

The problem is : addon has to configure saned (which is systemwide) in
order to share devices. And that need a xinetd restart or similar. I
don't think that doing this in session space is good. Does users share
printers in a per session basis ?

Étienne.
-- 
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Re: Planning Gnome Scan Inclusion

2006-09-10 Thread Étienne Bersac

I know. I'll wait for the massive SVN migration.

Étienne.
-- 
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Re: Planning Gnome Scan Inclusion

2006-09-10 Thread Olav Vitters
On Sun, Sep 10, 2006 at 02:24:10PM +0200, Étienne Bersac wrote:
> > The first steps towards inclusion into GNOME (blessed or not) would be
> > to move GNOME scan to the GNOME infrastructure (CVS, and bugzilla).
> 
> I submit a request for a SVN Repo and a gnome.org account few weeks ago.
> Still nothing about both. I would like to avoid using CVS for a
> migration in some weeks later ... (and because i'm fed up with CVS)

Due to technical reasons it is not possible to have a SVN repository
before GNOME switches over. When logging in via ssh, you are forced to
use CVS (/usr/bin/cvs server). While this could perhaps be changed, the
result would be that it would force the SVN command (no CVS for you
anymore). This is not workable (even if you agree, translators would
not).

-- 
Regards,
Olav
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Re: Is anyone looking at the accounts list? (was Re: Planning Gnome Scan Inclusion)

2006-09-10 Thread Olav Vitters
On Sun, Sep 10, 2006 at 10:28:56AM -0400, Joe Shaw wrote:
> Étienne Bersac wrote:
> > I submit a request for a SVN Repo and a gnome.org account few weeks ago.
> > Still nothing about both. I would like to avoid using CVS for a
> > migration in some weeks later ... (and because i'm fed up with CVS)
> > 
> > But, of course, using Gnome hosting is something i'll be glad to do.
> > Still waiting :(
> 
> Likewise, I have a contributor who has been waiting for over a month for 
> a CVS account.  My follow-up emails have also gone unanswered.  Is 
> anyone even reading [EMAIL PROTECTED] email?

The interface to change/create accounts is not working because httpd
complains that the user 'mango' does not exist.

CC'ing gnome-sysadmin to get that fixed.


-- 
Regards,
Olav
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Re: Planning Gnome Scan Inclusion

2006-09-10 Thread David Zeuthen
On Sun, 2006-09-10 at 17:14 +0200, Étienne Bersac wrote:
> Hi
> > Suggest to just use a HAL addon for the D-BUS service, it's designed to
> > do exactly this kind of thing. 
> 
> I completely agree. I said "dbus-service" because i didn't investigate
> enough in hal to see what is possible. I'm glad to see that such feature
> exists.

Cool.

> I wonder if this HAL addon will be able to share device (e.g. configure
> saned and publish with avahi and detect avahi share with gnomescan).

I think you want to handle all interactions for sharing / discovering
scanners using Avahi, at the desktop session level. This is because I
think these activities (deciding to share a scanner / deciding to use a
scanner that is shared) are inherently per-user. 

Ideally, you just patch gnome-hardware-manager [1] to share the scanner,
e.g. the g-h-m UI exposes an option in the UI

 [ ] Share scanners on the network

and optionally it provides some UI for the user to set the name of the
scanner, e.g. "davidz's scanner", "scanner in 3rd floor design lab" or
"skanner på tredie sal i design lokalet" (e.g. localized into e.g.
danish!). 

This should all be controlled by gconf keys so we can reap the benefits
of lockdown etc. Also, when we get infrastructure for running policy
daemons (such as g-h-m, g-p-m, nm-applet etc.) when no-one is logged in
this is also good for the "scanner server" use-case. With this, one
simply installs a GNOME distro on a box, sets "[X] Share scanners on the
network" as system default [2] and there you go! [3]

For discovery of scanners using Avahi, I think you just want to hook
that into your GnomeScan dialog or similar, yes?

Cheers,
David

[1] : or is it gnome-device-manager? Anyway, what used to be called
gnome-volume-manager. Or maybe it's not renamed yet? I'll call it g-h-m
for the remainder of this mail..

[2] : I suspect that the UI bits for desktop policy daemons such as
g-p-m, g-h-m and nm-applet will have "Set these settings as system-wide"
and if the user clicks it these settings will be copied to /etc/gconf,
e.g. the system-wide location. Of course the user will have to auth in
this case (as himself or as root) but that's one reason I started
writing PolicyKit.. Anyway, off-topic in this mail...

[3] : in the same vein, it would be nice for g-h-m to have a feature to
share some/all (external, maybe also internal) storage drives using
Avahi. Sounds like a fun and small project for someone to hack on,
possibly it needs some integration with e.g. gnome-user-share. Would be
a really nice feature though, would help extend our (GNOME) reach even
more into the data center and the world of sys admins.



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Re: Planning Gnome Scan Inclusion

2006-09-10 Thread Étienne Bersac
Hi,

>  
> http://people.freedesktop.org/~david/talks/dynamic-device-handling-OLS-2006.pdf

Whaoo ! This pdf is so exciting ! 8D

Étienne.
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Re: Planning Gnome Scan Inclusion

2006-09-10 Thread Étienne Bersac
Hi
> Suggest to just use a HAL addon for the D-BUS service, it's designed to
> do exactly this kind of thing. 

I completely agree. I said "dbus-service" because i didn't investigate
enough in hal to see what is possible. I'm glad to see that such feature
exists.

I wonder if this HAL addon will be able to share device (e.g. configure
saned and publish with avahi and detect avahi share with gnomescan).

Étienne.
-- 
Verso l'Alto !

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Re: Planning Gnome Scan Inclusion

2006-09-10 Thread David Zeuthen
On Fri, 2006-09-08 at 14:54 +0200, Étienne Bersac wrote:
> Hello all !
> 
> Since march, i'm designing and developping a Gnome Scan infrastructure.
> See http://home.gna.org/gnomescan/index and Google "gnome scan" search
> result in general. I've been sponsored by Google do work on this project
> this summer. Mentored by Vincent Untz.

This looks like great stuff!

>   * hal scanner support
>   * dbus service

Suggest to just use a HAL addon for the D-BUS service, it's designed to
do exactly this kind of thing. 

It basically solves all the life cycle issues for you (e.g. no need to
start the service when the hardware is not there, creates several
instances of the daemon if you got several pieces of hardware, none if
you don't have the hardware, hotplug aware etc. etc.) and integrates
nicely into the HAL architecture, e.g. the addon will just provide some
org.freedesktop.Hal.Device.Scanner interface where you get to handle
method calls and emit signals. Much like a standard D-BUS service, only
without the (hard) issues of managing life cycles.

Using HAL addon's is much preferred to the old-school way of providing a
user space daemon for driving hardware with user space drivers. The
old-school way normally starts the daemon in a init script which will
load it even if you don't have the hardware.

See also page 13 of

 http://people.freedesktop.org/~david/talks/dynamic-device-handling-OLS-2006.pdf

for some (brief) details of HAL addons. Just ask on
[EMAIL PROTECTED] if you need help with this.

 David


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Is anyone looking at the accounts list? (was Re: Planning Gnome Scan Inclusion)

2006-09-10 Thread Joe Shaw
Hi,

Étienne Bersac wrote:
> I submit a request for a SVN Repo and a gnome.org account few weeks ago.
> Still nothing about both. I would like to avoid using CVS for a
> migration in some weeks later ... (and because i'm fed up with CVS)
> 
> But, of course, using Gnome hosting is something i'll be glad to do.
> Still waiting :(

Likewise, I have a contributor who has been waiting for over a month for 
a CVS account.  My follow-up emails have also gone unanswered.  Is 
anyone even reading [EMAIL PROTECTED] email?

Joe
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Re: Planning Gnome Scan Inclusion

2006-09-10 Thread Étienne Bersac
Hello,

> The first steps towards inclusion into GNOME (blessed or not) would be
> to move GNOME scan to the GNOME infrastructure (CVS, and bugzilla).

I submit a request for a SVN Repo and a gnome.org account few weeks ago.
Still nothing about both. I would like to avoid using CVS for a
migration in some weeks later ... (and because i'm fed up with CVS)

But, of course, using Gnome hosting is something i'll be glad to do.
Still waiting :(

Étienne
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Re: Planning Gnome Scan Inclusion

2006-09-10 Thread Bastien Nocera
On Fri, 2006-09-08 at 16:15 +0200, Étienne Bersac wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> > Where is the source???
> 
> I pointed the current projet homepage :
> http://home.gna.org/gnomescan/index . Follow the "projet page" link and
> you'll be lead to SVN. You can also use tarballs from
> http://home.gna.org/gnomescan/download .
> 
> However, i released a 0.2.3 (including deutsch translation). All files
> are at http://download.gna.org/gnomescan  .

The first steps towards inclusion into GNOME (blessed or not) would be
to move GNOME scan to the GNOME infrastructure (CVS, and bugzilla).

-- 
Bastien Nocera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 

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Re: Planning Gnome Scan Inclusion

2006-09-08 Thread Joseph E. Sacco, Ph.D.
You are welcome...

-Joseph

==
On Fri, 2006-09-08 at 16:51 +0200, Étienne Bersac wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> > Thanks... I will try it out this weekend. If all goes well, I will add
> > it to GARNOME so others can play with it an provide feedback.
> 
> Wow ! Nice ! Thank you ! :D
> 
> Étienne.
-- 
joseph_sacco [at] comcast [dot] net

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Re: Planning Gnome Scan Inclusion

2006-09-08 Thread Étienne Bersac
Hi,

> Thanks... I will try it out this weekend. If all goes well, I will add
> it to GARNOME so others can play with it an provide feedback.

Wow ! Nice ! Thank you ! :D

Étienne.
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Re: Planning Gnome Scan Inclusion

2006-09-08 Thread Joseph E. Sacco, Ph.D.
Thanks... I will try it out this weekend. If all goes well, I will add
it to GARNOME so others can play with it an provide feedback.

-Joseph

==

On Fri, 2006-09-08 at 16:15 +0200, Étienne Bersac wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> > Where is the source???
> 
> I pointed the current projet homepage :
> http://home.gna.org/gnomescan/index . Follow the "projet page" link and
> you'll be lead to SVN. You can also use tarballs from
> http://home.gna.org/gnomescan/download .
> 
> However, i released a 0.2.3 (including deutsch translation). All files
> are at http://download.gna.org/gnomescan  .
> 
> Étienne.
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Re: Planning Gnome Scan Inclusion

2006-09-08 Thread Étienne Bersac
Hello,

> Where is the source???

I pointed the current projet homepage :
http://home.gna.org/gnomescan/index . Follow the "projet page" link and
you'll be lead to SVN. You can also use tarballs from
http://home.gna.org/gnomescan/download .

However, i released a 0.2.3 (including deutsch translation). All files
are at http://download.gna.org/gnomescan  .

Étienne.
-- 
Verso l'Alto !

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Re: Planning Gnome Scan Inclusion

2006-09-08 Thread Joseph E. Sacco, Ph.D.
Where is the source???

-Joseph

===
On Fri, 2006-09-08 at 15:45 +0200, Étienne Bersac wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> > I am curious to know what the word "flegita" means.  Searches using
> > google and dictionaries in three languages didn't turn up anything which
> > looked relevant.
> 
> Good question. :) flegita is an esperanto word that mean "cured".
> 
> Étienne.
> -- 
> Verso l'Alto !
> 
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Re: Planning Gnome Scan Inclusion

2006-09-08 Thread Étienne Bersac
Hello,

> I am curious to know what the word "flegita" means.  Searches using
> google and dictionaries in three languages didn't turn up anything which
> looked relevant.

Good question. :) flegita is an esperanto word that mean "cured".

Étienne.
-- 
Verso l'Alto !

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Re: Planning Gnome Scan Inclusion

2006-09-08 Thread Étienne Bersac
Hello,

> I sure do! please keep up the hard work, this project got me really
> excited.

Héhé :)

I wrote a RoadMap in the Wiki.
http://live.gnome.org/GnomeScanning#head-39b656e3f4fce8abe4bf0da2cee994cffa9b90b8

I'm currently packaging gnomescan for debian/ubuntu.

Étienne.
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Re: Planning Gnome Scan Inclusion

2006-09-08 Thread David Prieto
> Do you want gnome scan for 2.18 ?

I sure do! please keep up the hard work, this project got me really
excited.

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