Re: Pleasantness [was: Re: Sound effects]

[Ross Burton]

On Wed, 2009-01-07 at 20:31 +0200, Natan Yellin wrote:
> It's probably best _not_ to handle that in a UI. What's the point in
> "automatic" context detection if you need to set a huge list of
> settings first?

One of the many use cases for Shackleton is "when I'm in the office, set
my default printer to foo" or "when I'm at home, mount my NAS".  If you
can come up with a UI-free solution for doing this then I'm all ears.

Ross
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Re: Pleasantness [was: Re: Sound effects]

[Calum Benson]

On 7 Jan 2009, at 18:09, Ross Burton wrote:


And FWIW, it's also what NWAM does (well, will do shortly) in
OpenSolaris.



Interesting.  Is this going to be open source?


Sure, knock yourself out:


The GUI side of things lives over here:

or browse the code at 

Cheeri,
Calum.

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Re: Pleasantness [was: Re: Sound effects]

[Natan Yellin]

2009/1/7 Ross Burton 

> On Wed, 2009-01-07 at 17:24 +, Calum Benson wrote:
> > > On Fri, 2008-12-12 at 19:08 +0100, Patryk Zawadzki wrote:
> > >> Then we can build on top of that to provide locations so you can
> > >> switch the usage profile, the proxy configuration, VPN settings and
> > >> other stuff basing on where you sit (and get bonus points for
> > >> detecting locations basing on stuff like current wireless network).
> > >> Anyway that's a whole different story and does not belong in this
> > >> thread.
> > >
> > > This sounds a lot like Marco Polo for MacOS, which I started cloning
> > > as
> > > Shackleton (http://burtonini.com/bzr/shackleton/).
> >
> > And FWIW, it's also what NWAM does (well, will do shortly) in
> > OpenSolaris.
> > 
>
> Interesting.  Is this going to be open source?
>
> Note that Shackleton is more than network location, contexts can be
> keyed on: day of week, time of day, wireless network, gconf key, power
> source, mounted volumes, connected devices, machines on the local
> network or bluetooth devices in range.
>
> This does make a UI somewhat tricky to write though. :)
>
It's probably best _not_ to handle that in a UI. What's the point in
"automatic" context detection if you need to set a huge list of settings
first?


>
> Ross
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Re: Pleasantness [was: Re: Sound effects]

[Ghee Teo]

Ross Burton wrote:

On Wed, 2009-01-07 at 17:24 +, Calum Benson wrote:
  

On Fri, 2008-12-12 at 19:08 +0100, Patryk Zawadzki wrote:
  

Then we can build on top of that to provide locations so you can
switch the usage profile, the proxy configuration, VPN settings and
other stuff basing on where you sit (and get bonus points for
detecting locations basing on stuff like current wireless network).
Anyway that's a whole different story and does not belong in this
thread.

This sounds a lot like Marco Polo for MacOS, which I started cloning  
as

Shackleton (http://burtonini.com/bzr/shackleton/).
  
And FWIW, it's also what NWAM does (well, will do shortly) in  
OpenSolaris.





Interesting.  Is this going to be open source?
  

 Funny :) Isn't it says opensolaris.org ?

-Ghee

Note that Shackleton is more than network location, contexts can be
keyed on: day of week, time of day, wireless network, gconf key, power
source, mounted volumes, connected devices, machines on the local
network or bluetooth devices in range.

This does make a UI somewhat tricky to write though. :)

Ross
  



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Re: Pleasantness [was: Re: Sound effects]

[Ross Burton]

On Wed, 2009-01-07 at 17:24 +, Calum Benson wrote:
> > On Fri, 2008-12-12 at 19:08 +0100, Patryk Zawadzki wrote:
> >> Then we can build on top of that to provide locations so you can
> >> switch the usage profile, the proxy configuration, VPN settings and
> >> other stuff basing on where you sit (and get bonus points for
> >> detecting locations basing on stuff like current wireless network).
> >> Anyway that's a whole different story and does not belong in this
> >> thread.
> >
> > This sounds a lot like Marco Polo for MacOS, which I started cloning  
> > as
> > Shackleton (http://burtonini.com/bzr/shackleton/).
> 
> And FWIW, it's also what NWAM does (well, will do shortly) in  
> OpenSolaris.
> 

Interesting.  Is this going to be open source?

Note that Shackleton is more than network location, contexts can be
keyed on: day of week, time of day, wireless network, gconf key, power
source, mounted volumes, connected devices, machines on the local
network or bluetooth devices in range.

This does make a UI somewhat tricky to write though. :)

Ross
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Re: Pleasantness [was: Re: Sound effects]

[Calum Benson]

On 13 Dec 2008, at 09:22, Ross Burton wrote:


On Fri, 2008-12-12 at 19:08 +0100, Patryk Zawadzki wrote:

Then we can build on top of that to provide locations so you can
switch the usage profile, the proxy configuration, VPN settings and
other stuff basing on where you sit (and get bonus points for
detecting locations basing on stuff like current wireless network).
Anyway that's a whole different story and does not belong in this
thread.


This sounds a lot like Marco Polo for MacOS, which I started cloning  
as

Shackleton (http://burtonini.com/bzr/shackleton/).


And FWIW, it's also what NWAM does (well, will do shortly) in  
OpenSolaris.



Cheeri,
Calum.

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Re: Pleasantness [was: Re: Sound effects]

[Ross Burton]

On Sat, 2008-12-13 at 20:15 +0200, natan yellin wrote:

> This sounds a lot like Marco Polo for MacOS, which I started
> cloning as
> Shackleton (http://burtonini.com/bzr/shackleton/).
> Thats very neat. Is there a project website or mailing list yet?

No, it only just works at present and doesn't have any users. :)

Ross
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Re: Pleasantness [was: Re: Sound effects]

[natan yellin]

2008/12/13 Ross Burton 

> On Fri, 2008-12-12 at 19:08 +0100, Patryk Zawadzki wrote:
> > Then we can build on top of that to provide locations so you can
> > switch the usage profile, the proxy configuration, VPN settings and
> > other stuff basing on where you sit (and get bonus points for
> > detecting locations basing on stuff like current wireless network).
> > Anyway that's a whole different story and does not belong in this
> > thread.
>
> This sounds a lot like Marco Polo for MacOS, which I started cloning as
> Shackleton (http://burtonini.com/bzr/shackleton/).
>
Thats very neat. Is there a project website or mailing list yet?

>
> Ross
> --
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Re: Pleasantness [was: Re: Sound effects]

[Felipe Contreras]

On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 6:43 PM, Dave Neary  wrote:
> Hello,
>
> Behdad Esfahbod wrote:
>> Iain * wrote:
>>> But I see that no-one else cares
>>
>> Or, you are not effectively communicating what you mean.
>
> Actually, I understand Iain getting annoyed here. He makes a proposal
> which has its merits, and likely has counter-points that have merit.
>
> But it's very quickly descended into a completely unproductive flamewar
> because of some aggressive emailing. Thus guaranteeing the end of all
> useful discussion and an "Ignore thread" from, I'm sure, more than one
> person.
>
> I would like to see more pleasantness on GNOME's email lists in general,
> and in this case specifically.

I saw some unnecessarily aggressive and unproductive mails in this
thread, but not from Lennart. He simply made his point in a straight
forward manner.

Iain on the other hand started dismissing all the work that has been
done regarding sounds, claiming that nobody uses them, that there
should be only one and making comments that clearly show he doesn't
understand how the sound theme spec works.

He argued so many things that personally I don't understand what he
really wants. Does he want to change the sound theme spec? Does he
want to discuss about the future default GNOME theme?

It would have gone much better if Iain hadn't take a righteous
attitude and if some people would have made more productive comments,
but I don't think blaming Lennart make sense. We are not here to chat
about the weather, do networking, or share our feelings, we are here
to get things done, and if ridiculing an idea gets the point across
there's nothing wrong with that. Ridiculing ideas != ridiculing
people.

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Re: Pleasantness [was: Re: Sound effects]

[Ross Burton]

On Fri, 2008-12-12 at 19:08 +0100, Patryk Zawadzki wrote:
> Then we can build on top of that to provide locations so you can
> switch the usage profile, the proxy configuration, VPN settings and
> other stuff basing on where you sit (and get bonus points for
> detecting locations basing on stuff like current wireless network).
> Anyway that's a whole different story and does not belong in this
> thread.

This sounds a lot like Marco Polo for MacOS, which I started cloning as
Shackleton (http://burtonini.com/bzr/shackleton/).

Ross
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Re: Pleasantness [was: Re: Sound effects]

[Lennart Poettering]

On Fri, 12.12.08 18:42, Bastien Nocera (had...@hadess.net) wrote:

> 
> On Fri, 2008-12-12 at 18:34 +0100, Lennart Poettering wrote:
> > On Fri, 12.12.08 12:19, Ronald S. Bultje (rsbul...@gmail.com) wrote:
> > 
> > > Hi,
> > 
> > Heya!
> > 
> > > On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 12:06 PM, Patryk Zawadzki  
> > > wrote:
> > > > Futhermore it's really much easier to open one capplet and be able to
> > > > mute half of the system sounds in just one click when preparing to
> > > > give a presentation
> > > 
> > > Like for power-management, this should be automated.
> > 
> > There's not much to automate. All a presentation program needs to do
> > is to toggle the GConf key /desktop/gnome/sound/event_sounds or the
> > XSETTING gtk-enable-event-sounds.
> > 
> > I don't think we need a daemon for managing that key, do we?
> 
> We probably do, because it's the same problem as the Inhibit APIs in the
> screensaver. What if your app crashes, how does it reset the old value,
> what was the old value? Should be easy enough to add to a
> gnome-settings-daemon plugin though.

Hmm, maybe GConf (or DConf) should know the notion of "temporary"
change that is automatically reversed if the app responsible
terminates the connection?  Somehow I got the feeling that this might
be useful for more than this case.

Lennart

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Re: Pleasantness [was: Re: Sound effects]

[Bastien Nocera]

On Fri, 2008-12-12 at 18:34 +0100, Lennart Poettering wrote:
> On Fri, 12.12.08 12:19, Ronald S. Bultje (rsbul...@gmail.com) wrote:
> 
> > Hi,
> 
> Heya!
> 
> > On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 12:06 PM, Patryk Zawadzki  
> > wrote:
> > > Futhermore it's really much easier to open one capplet and be able to
> > > mute half of the system sounds in just one click when preparing to
> > > give a presentation
> > 
> > Like for power-management, this should be automated.
> 
> There's not much to automate. All a presentation program needs to do
> is to toggle the GConf key /desktop/gnome/sound/event_sounds or the
> XSETTING gtk-enable-event-sounds.
> 
> I don't think we need a daemon for managing that key, do we?

We probably do, because it's the same problem as the Inhibit APIs in the
screensaver. What if your app crashes, how does it reset the old value,
what was the old value? Should be easy enough to add to a
gnome-settings-daemon plugin though.

Other apps could also use it. See http://tinyurl.com/5s5an8 [1].

Cheers

[1]: And if you're worried about patents, see
http://www.redhat.com/legal/patent_policy.html

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Re: Pleasantness [was: Re: Sound effects]

[Patryk Zawadzki]

On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 6:34 PM, Lennart Poettering  wrote:
> On Fri, 12.12.08 12:19, Ronald S. Bultje (rsbul...@gmail.com) wrote:
>> On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 12:06 PM, Patryk Zawadzki  
>> wrote:
>> > Futhermore it's really much easier to open one capplet and be able to
>> > mute half of the system sounds in just one click when preparing to
>> > give a presentation
>> Like for power-management, this should be automated.
> There's not much to automate. All a presentation program needs to do
> is to toggle the GConf key /desktop/gnome/sound/event_sounds or the
> XSETTING gtk-enable-event-sounds.
>
> I don't think we need a daemon for managing that key, do we?

I actually don't agree here. We need something like system usage
profiles (normal use, stealth mode for public areas, presentation
etc.) so we don't run into a heap of race conditions where multiple
applications try to change and restore the same bunch of GConf keys.
Ideally there would just be an fd.o standard with a corresponding
GConf key and XSETTING so applications can monitor the changes and act
along (in this case canberra-gtk might decide to mute all sounds for
some of the profiles).

Then we can build on top of that to provide locations so you can
switch the usage profile, the proxy configuration, VPN settings and
other stuff basing on where you sit (and get bonus points for
detecting locations basing on stuff like current wireless network).
Anyway that's a whole different story and does not belong in this
thread.

-- 
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Re: Pleasantness [was: Re: Sound effects]

[Lennart Poettering]

On Fri, 12.12.08 18:36, Lennart Poettering (mzta...@0pointer.de) wrote:

> > On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 12:06 PM, Patryk Zawadzki  
> > wrote:
> > > Actually as it was pointed out his proposal is perfectly achievable as
> > > a theme with oen sound and 3-4 symlinks for the main notification
> > > categories (and no sounds for the rest of them).
> > 
> > So you're now agreeing that that current sound theme might be
> > suboptimal. Whether that is by design or by implementation is
> > irrelevant for an end user.

Oh, one more thing. The current s-t-fd is not just suboptimal. In many
ways it is really awful. I put it together from all kinds of
preexisting work, such as KDE, gnome-audio. And everyone knows how little
enjoyable those sounds are.

It is very easy to write a sound theme. However it quite some work in
finding wave files, making sure their license is right and making sure
they fit together well.

There's now a large set of free sounds available:

http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Sound_samples

Lennart

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Re: Pleasantness [was: Re: Sound effects]

[Lennart Poettering]

On Fri, 12.12.08 12:20, Ronald S. Bultje (rsbul...@gmail.com) wrote:

> On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 12:06 PM, Patryk Zawadzki  
> wrote:
> > Actually as it was pointed out his proposal is perfectly achievable as
> > a theme with oen sound and 3-4 symlinks for the main notification
> > categories (and no sounds for the rest of them).
> 
> So you're now agreeing that that current sound theme might be
> suboptimal. Whether that is by design or by implementation is
> irrelevant for an end user.
> 
> As a 2nd feature request, will such a theme be created and shipped as
> default in GNOME 2.next?

As already pointed out: you are welcome to put such a theme together
and it is very likely we would even include it in the same tarball as
s-t-fd.

Patches always welcome!

Lennart

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Re: Pleasantness [was: Re: Sound effects]

[Alberto Ruiz]

2008/12/12 Lennart Poettering :
> On Fri, 12.12.08 17:43, Dave Neary (dne...@gnome.org) wrote:
>> This entire discussion has been symptomatic of a malaise in GNOME
>> discussion lists, where obstreperousness has consistently put an end to
>> interesting debate and turned it into flamewars. The project is better
>> served by people arguing principles than attacking either the messenger
>> or the grammar of the message.
>
> Not so sure that this thread is really a good example for your
> case. My response was solely based on technical reasoning. Maybe it
> appeared a bit aggressive or unfriendly. But in the end technical
> reasoning is what matters.

In a project formed by people, technical reasoning is not the only
thing that matters. Being respectful and careful about each others
reactions to our actions matters as much if not more than having a
perfect technical reasoning.

Not implying that you've been unrespectful here, just pointing out.

>
> Lennart
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Re: Pleasantness [was: Re: Sound effects]

[Lennart Poettering]

On Fri, 12.12.08 12:19, Ronald S. Bultje (rsbul...@gmail.com) wrote:

> Hi,

Heya!

> On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 12:06 PM, Patryk Zawadzki  
> wrote:
> > Futhermore it's really much easier to open one capplet and be able to
> > mute half of the system sounds in just one click when preparing to
> > give a presentation
> 
> Like for power-management, this should be automated.

There's not much to automate. All a presentation program needs to do
is to toggle the GConf key /desktop/gnome/sound/event_sounds or the
XSETTING gtk-enable-event-sounds.

I don't think we need a daemon for managing that key, do we?

> PS for this kind of stuff, someone could make bug reports so this
> actually gets done instead of forgotten.

File a bug against OpenOffice!

Lennart

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Re: Pleasantness [was: Re: Sound effects]

[Lennart Poettering]

On Fri, 12.12.08 17:43, Dave Neary (dne...@gnome.org) wrote:

> Iain wonders why there are 125 user-configurable system sounds in GNOME.
> He sees that most of the sounds are application-specific, not
> system-general, and suggests doing away with most of them, and letting
> applications handle application-specific sounds, and having the system
> configuration only be used for system-level sounds.

I am sorry: As already pointed out in a personal email to you: this is
not the correct premise. We don't expose 125 user-configurable system
sounds in GNOME. We never did. It's about 16 or so. 

Also, stuff like input feedback sounds have their own checkbox you can
easily disable them with at once.

I mentioned both of these facts during the thread.

> This is a perfectly reasonable starting principle. And for a while there
> was lively, useful discussion.
> 
> Lennart didn't respond to that argument by responding to the principle,
> and explaining the reasoning behind theming in the first place, he
> started arguing against the details of the proposal of Iain.

He. Why should I respond to that on principle? I have nothing against
the idea of having a minimal sound theme consisting of a single sound
only. The technology for defining such a theme is already there. It's
just a matter of putting it together and getting it into the
distributions.

You know, it would probably even make sense to ship such a theme
within the s-t-fdo tarball since it is very generic. (Before we do
that we however need to check how much this overlaps with the
checkboxes we already provide)

What I was responding to is the premises and conclusions. Because most
of them were invalid and incorrect.

(Also note that I still havent' entirely understood what exactly iaian
was asking for which makes it impossible to respond "to a principle".)

> This entire discussion has been symptomatic of a malaise in GNOME
> discussion lists, where obstreperousness has consistently put an end to
> interesting debate and turned it into flamewars. The project is better
> served by people arguing principles than attacking either the messenger
> or the grammar of the message.

Not so sure that this thread is really a good example for your
case. My response was solely based on technical reasoning. Maybe it
appeared a bit aggressive or unfriendly. But in the end technical
reasoning is what matters.

Lennart
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Re: Pleasantness [was: Re: Sound effects]

[Ronald S. Bultje]

Hi,

[separate reply, because separate issue]

On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 12:06 PM, Patryk Zawadzki  wrote:
> Actually as it was pointed out his proposal is perfectly achievable as
> a theme with oen sound and 3-4 symlinks for the main notification
> categories (and no sounds for the rest of them).

So you're now agreeing that that current sound theme might be
suboptimal. Whether that is by design or by implementation is
irrelevant for an end user.

As a 2nd feature request, will such a theme be created and shipped as
default in GNOME 2.next?

Ronald
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Re: Pleasantness [was: Re: Sound effects]

[Ronald S. Bultje]

Hi,

On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 12:06 PM, Patryk Zawadzki  wrote:
> Futhermore it's really much easier to open one capplet and be able to
> mute half of the system sounds in just one click when preparing to
> give a presentation

Like for power-management, this should be automated.

Ronald

PS for this kind of stuff, someone could make bug reports so this
actually gets done instead of forgotten.
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Re: Pleasantness [was: Re: Sound effects]

[Patryk Zawadzki]

On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 5:43 PM, Dave Neary  wrote:
> Hello,
>
> Behdad Esfahbod wrote:
>> Iain * wrote:
>>> But I see that no-one else cares
>>
>> Or, you are not effectively communicating what you mean.
> Actually, I understand Iain getting annoyed here. He makes a proposal
> which has its merits, and likely has counter-points that have merit.

Actually as it was pointed out his proposal is perfectly achievable as
a theme with oen sound and 3-4 symlinks for the main notification
categories (and no sounds for the rest of them).

> Let me summarise what's happening here:
>
> Iain wonders why there are 125 user-configurable system sounds in GNOME.
> He sees that most of the sounds are application-specific, not
> system-general, and suggests doing away with most of them, and letting
> applications handle application-specific sounds, and having the system
> configuration only be used for system-level sounds.
[...]
> This is an admirable goal, and doesn't necessarily go counter to Iain's
> goal, which is to symplify configuration of system sounds and make them
> really useful to people who don't have the time to decide which of the
> 125 available sounds they want turned on and which they want turned off.

There are only 16 options in the GNOME sound preferences capplet. They
handle all these 125 sounds.

Futhermore it's really much easier to open one capplet and be able to
mute half of the system sounds in just one click when preparing to
give a presentation (before someone proposes pressing "mute" please
think about the concept of watching videos without sound).

-- 
Patryk Zawadzki
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