Re: Request for breakage in gnome-panel
I'm baffled why Run as is a problem to anyone but the balance is hard and the more folks can go and talk to users/potential users the better. Do note that Run as isn't an issue for me - it is the greater issue of removing features in the future that some individual doesn't see a need for, or finds annoying, that is the real issue in my mind. -- Larry W. Virden URL: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] URL: http://www.purl.org/net/lvirden/ Even if explicitly stated to the contrary, nothing in this posting should be construed as representing my employer's opinions. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Innovation [was: Re: Request for breakage in gnome-panel]
quote who=Ryan McDougall On Mon, 2005-14-02 at 02:58 -0500, Bryan Clark wrote: On Mon, 2005-02-14 at 17:23 +1100, Jeff Waugh wrote: [snipped much good thinking] Perhaps this would be a helpful place to flesh out the awesome ideas you guys are putting forth: http://live.gnome.org/BringBackTheInnovation The wiki is really not designed for open questions and bike shedding. - Jeff -- GUADEC 2005: May 29th-31st http://2005.guadec.org/ So: Stop selling software. Give it away. Work out some other way to make money, because pretending it's not replicable is not it. Profit. - Martin Pool ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Request for breakage in gnome-panel
Il giorno dom, 13-02-2005 alle 15:55 +0100, Vincent Untz ha scritto: Le dimanche 13 février 2005 à 15:40 +0100, Samuel Abels a écrit : On Sun, 2005-02-13 at 15:18 +0100, Vincent Untz wrote: Le dimanche 13 février 2005 à 08:44 -0500, Havoc Pennington a écrit : And the rest of the thread didn't address these release team questions. A simple no, we can't take this now due to already-written docs but it will go in 2.12 is fine. I suppose that I should mention here I'll commit the patch as soon as we branch and start the work for 2.12. I didn't have the feeling there was consensus on this. Maybe in the end it's just a maintainer's decision, but I actually had the impression that most people voted in favor of keeping the menu item. The idea here is to see at the beginning of 2.12 how it feels to have the menu without the item. We'll have feedback. Don't see this as a final decision, but as a test :-) It's the best comment about it. I agree. We _need_ to test this removal. -- Luca Ferretti [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Request for breakage in gnome-panel
Il giorno dom, 13-02-2005 alle 15:55 +0100, Vincent Untz ha scritto: Le dimanche 13 février 2005 à 15:40 +0100, Samuel Abels a écrit : On Sun, 2005-02-13 at 15:18 +0100, Vincent Untz wrote: Le dimanche 13 février 2005 à 08:44 -0500, Havoc Pennington a écrit : And the rest of the thread didn't address these release team questions. A simple no, we can't take this now due to already-written docs but it will go in 2.12 is fine. I suppose that I should mention here I'll commit the patch as soon as we branch and start the work for 2.12. I didn't have the feeling there was consensus on this. Maybe in the end it's just a maintainer's decision, but I actually had the impression that most people voted in favor of keeping the menu item. The idea here is to see at the beginning of 2.12 how it feels to have the menu without the item. We'll have feedback. Don't see this as a final decision, but as a test :-) It's the best comment about it. I agree. We _need_ to test it. -- Luca Ferretti [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Request for breakage in gnome-panel
From: Bryan Clark [EMAIL PROTECTED] we don't actually inflict enough pain on them. What we do is leave band-aids and warts lying around so we ourselves can pretend that our desktop is good because people are able to get by. Instead of clearing those nasty things off the table and actually facing our *real* problems. : : Obviously it's not necessary to cause pain to realize what we need to do, most people have ideas of what we need to do. But the pain is about getting everyone to see where we are failing and focusing what we need to do to succeed instead of letting everyone find hacks around our failures. I know that in the gnome community I am trying to build, the users are non-developers; people who need to get a job done, quickly and efficiently. And the perception of gnome they have now is mixed. They are used to getting their job done under OpenWindows. There were certainly lots of frustrations there. When we looked at CDE, and how nightmareish trying to set up user defined menu entries, default login desktops, etc. we basically stalled until cde went away on our sparc environments. However, now gnome is crashing towards us like an elephant through the bush. And so we began the process of trying to hand hold hundreds of users through the trauma of switching desktops. And consistently what we hear are things like Why can't we ... , We used to be able to do this under OpenWindows; why can't we now... with the occasional Wow, that's great! The biggest incentive for people to quit using a GNOME desktop, and move to Windows, is arbitrary, caprious changing of the user desktop for no good reason to the users. Rather than people guessing this is what users want or need, it seems to me that actually talking to cross sections of a wide variety of users might provide accurate models of what people need and want. -- Tcl - The glue of a new generation. URL: http://wiki.tcl.tk/ Larry W. Virden mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] URL: http://www.purl.org/NET/lvirden/ Even if explicitly stated to the contrary, nothing in this posting should be construed as representing my employer's opinions. -- ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Innovation [was: Re: Request for breakage in gnome-panel]
On Mon, 2005-14-02 at 21:28 +1100, Jeff Waugh wrote: quote who=Ryan McDougall On Mon, 2005-14-02 at 02:58 -0500, Bryan Clark wrote: On Mon, 2005-02-14 at 17:23 +1100, Jeff Waugh wrote: [snipped much good thinking] Perhaps this would be a helpful place to flesh out the awesome ideas you guys are putting forth: http://live.gnome.org/BringBackTheInnovation The wiki is really not designed for open questions and bike shedding. Then don't tell anyone about http://live.gnome.org/ThreePointZero ! Shhh... Seriously if you don't like it, revert it. If there are rules that I need to follow, please let me know. - Jeff Cheers, Ryan ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Request for breakage in gnome-panel
On Mon, 2005-02-14 at 21:28 +1100, Jeff Waugh wrote: quote who=Bryan Clark (Just to note that this is satire-ish, I don't really want to cause pain and there are many other ways of getting people focused, however none really take the problem of slow to no innovation as head on as this approach) Removing stuff willy-nilly is NOT innovation. It does NOT breed innovation. It just pisses people off that we're pulling crap out under their feet without giving them something fantastic to make up for it. Alright, I just don't think we're communicating at this point. I've dropped the request completely and tried to explain how this isn't 'willy-nilly' and I think this thing is part of a greater evil. And tried to explain how I think exposing our evil pieces in a release is not the end of the world but the start of we as a community of hackers and users facing the music. But that discussion isn't taking place. I feel like you're just hacking at my message and pre-pending capital NOT to anything I say instead of actual discussion. Cheers, ~ Bryan ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Request for breakage in gnome-panel
On Llu, 2005-02-14 at 10:26, Jeff Waugh wrote: Snipping the RA menu item will not lead to fixing the menu system for real users - that responsibility ends up coming down to the distribution. It certainly won't lead to fixing the root problem - that is, getting rid of Run As .. has another use that is rather harder to magically make go away, and a rather important one in the business world. It's how people instruct users to run things because it's easier than click on the thing that probably looks like a blue dog, unless you are running Fedora in which case it'll look like a sheep, or maybe a black and white banana depending on theme Run As is IMHO non threatening. It isn't used much anyway (which means the design is right). Its pretty essential when you need to deal with something one off and the dialogue from it has a big cancel button. Alan ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Request for breakage in gnome-panel
The biggest incentive for people to quit using a GNOME desktop, and move to Windows, is arbitrary, caprious changing of the user desktop for no good reason to the users. Rather than people guessing this is what users want or need, it seems to me that actually talking to cross sections of a wide variety of users might provide accurate models of what people need and want. You need to talk to a wide variety of potential users as well - Havoc is right that they tell you very different things to your typical Linux user. It's obviously hard to figure out their view on the changing nature of Gnome because they don't yet use it. Existing users do regularly mention it changes too much/fast and often use words like arbitary and arrogant. They are I think much more concerned about lack of desktop lockdown ability and performance than about Run as however. One thing that is annoying as hell that I've now heard from several people involved in the front line pushing desktops is that If its not in the same place as in Windows then they assume its a missing feature. I fear users are now so brainwashed/trained into one thing that what users _think_ they want is a windows clone. I'm all for seeing a better Gnome but removing things that don't cause confusion for what appear to be arbitary reasons doesn't work. All it will do is cause a fork in Gnome between purist Gnome and vendor shipped Gnome for real people, where the latter puts back things the users expect regardless of their purity of model. I'm baffled why Run as is a problem to anyone but the balance is hard and the more folks can go and talk to users/potential users the better. Go victimise some relatives, business associates or other willing (or unable to escape) people and take notes. Its a parallelisable problem to do that and then look for common themes in the results. Alan ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Request for breakage in gnome-panel
Speaking as a daily gnome user, I would not want this option to be removed from the menus, not now or in the next version of gnome. Reasons: 1. it gives me a way to load apps that are not on the menu. I install a lot of apps -- gnome and kde alike-- and 80% of them are not installing a .desktop file and so they don't appear in the menus. 2. I am not a shortcut person. I am a lazy mouse person. So, that alt+f2, I really don't know what it does and I have never seen normal users using weird shortcuts to load apps (referencing to Colin's message). 3. Having a run panel is of course wrong, when the system is well architected. However, the _reality_ of unix today requires users to use such a utility all too often. As I explained above, not all apps install menu items and gnome's menu editing capabilities are limited. IMHO, the Run panel should remain as is under the Application's listings (after using a seperator widget). Maybe in 5 to 10 years from now the unix/linux way-of-doing-things would be different, and as in macosx, we won't need a Run applet. But today, we do. It is one matter to remove functionality when it's not needed and it's bad usability-wise, but an altogether different matter when something is indeed bad usability but it's truly needed. Regards, Eugenia --- http://www.GnomeFiles.org ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Request for breakage in gnome-panel
On Sun, 2005-02-13 at 08:08 -0500, Havoc Pennington wrote: Bah, this was predictable. Because it's a trivial UI fix instead of any other kind of trivial fix, it becomes a huge thread and gets shot down for bad reasons ranging from the nitpicky to the melodramatic. Bryan, just put the patch in our SRPM. /grumpy It was predictable that a very user-visible UI change was rejected three weeks (three weeks!) after the UI freeze? I should hope so. It was predictable that I don't want to scrap my notes and outlines for the User Guide work, especially after having to rework the whole damn thing because it's been out of date since 2.6? Yeah, sorry, I'm just not into that sort of thing. Was that too melodramatic? -- Shaun ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Request for breakage in gnome-panel
On Sun, 2005-02-13 at 07:23 -0600, Shaun McCance wrote: It was predictable that a very user-visible UI change was rejected three weeks (three weeks!) after the UI freeze? I should hope so. It was predictable that I don't want to scrap my notes and outlines for the User Guide work, especially after having to rework the whole damn thing because it's been out of date since 2.6? Yeah, sorry, I'm just not into that sort of thing. Was that too melodramatic? There are legitimate release team questions: does this break docs work that was already done, does it endanger stability. But yes, your embellishment on the answer is melodramatic. The whole reason Bryan posted was to ask. So you don't have to act like people were trying to screw you when they followed the process designed to avoid screwing you. And the rest of the thread didn't address these release team questions. A simple no, we can't take this now due to already-written docs but it will go in 2.12 is fine. Havoc ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Request for breakage in gnome-panel
Le dimanche 13 fvrier 2005 08:44 -0500, Havoc Pennington a crit : And the rest of the thread didn't address these release team questions. A simple no, we can't take this now due to already-written docs but it will go in 2.12 is fine. I suppose that I should mention here I'll commit the patch as soon as we branch and start the work for 2.12. Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas presss. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Request for breakage in gnome-panel
On Sun, 2005-02-13 at 15:18 +0100, Vincent Untz wrote: Le dimanche 13 février 2005 à 08:44 -0500, Havoc Pennington a écrit : And the rest of the thread didn't address these release team questions. A simple no, we can't take this now due to already-written docs but it will go in 2.12 is fine. I suppose that I should mention here I'll commit the patch as soon as we branch and start the work for 2.12. I didn't have the feeling there was consensus on this. Maybe in the end it's just a maintainer's decision, but I actually had the impression that most people voted in favor of keeping the menu item. Also, isn't that something that should also go to the usability list? Opening a terminal for running applications that are not in the menu yet (or guessing the correct keybinding), seems a bit complicated for normal users. Not that I would need the item myself, but I do realize that it is not realistic to expect that it is completely unnecessary for everyone. -Samuel -- -- | Samuel Abels | http://www.debain.org| | spam ad debain dod org | knipknap ad jabber dod org | -- ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Request for breakage in gnome-panel
On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 07:23:31 -0600, Shaun McCance [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sun, 2005-02-13 at 08:08 -0500, Havoc Pennington wrote: Bah, this was predictable. Because it's a trivial UI fix instead of any other kind of trivial fix, it becomes a huge thread and gets shot down for bad reasons ranging from the nitpicky to the melodramatic. Bryan, just put the patch in our SRPM. /grumpy It was predictable that a very user-visible UI change was rejected three weeks (three weeks!) after the UI freeze? I should hope so. It was predictable that I don't want to scrap my notes and outlines for the User Guide work, especially after having to rework the whole damn thing because it's been out of date since 2.6? Yeah, sorry, I'm just not into that sort of thing. Was that too melodramatic? I think the problem was that this wasn't the reason that was being used to turn it down, when this was the only real valid reason, IMO. Unfortunately, I was kind of the one that started it because I was hoping it could easily be put elsewhere in the menu, but I'm afraid my comment came across more as Here's what we should be doing usability-wise which was not a well-advised comment considering that I'm neither the maintainer nor a member of the usability team. So, I think I screwed up. I'm still against it, but only because you claim that removing the menu item would cause you problems; otherwise I think it should be approved... *shrug* Elijah ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Request for breakage in gnome-panel
Le dimanche 13 fvrier 2005 15:40 +0100, Samuel Abels a crit : On Sun, 2005-02-13 at 15:18 +0100, Vincent Untz wrote: Le dimanche 13 fvrier 2005 08:44 -0500, Havoc Pennington a crit : And the rest of the thread didn't address these release team questions. A simple no, we can't take this now due to already-written docs but it will go in 2.12 is fine. I suppose that I should mention here I'll commit the patch as soon as we branch and start the work for 2.12. I didn't have the feeling there was consensus on this. Maybe in the end it's just a maintainer's decision, but I actually had the impression that most people voted in favor of keeping the menu item. The idea here is to see at the beginning of 2.12 how it feels to have the menu without the item. We'll have feedback. Don't see this as a final decision, but as a test :-) Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas presss. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
RE: Request for breakage in gnome-panel
On Sun, 2005-02-13 at 13:28 -0800, Eugenia Loli-Queru wrote: Let Red Hat do whatever they want on their packages, but please don't remove this from the core Gnome. Which leads us to another solution, which would be, make it a gconf key ;). -Samuel -- -- | Samuel Abels | http://www.debain.org| | spam ad debain dod org | knipknap ad jabber dod org | -- ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Request for breakage in gnome-panel
On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 14:54:46 +1100, Jeff Waugh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: quote who=Bryan Clark And just to take the flames point head on, no flames do not generally mean that what was done was the wrong thing, they generally mean that very vocal people are upset that things changed. People obviously fear change, if we get rid of Run Applications the desktop won't come crashing to a halt. Instead we should expect to get bug reports on missing .desktop files and maybe people will get together to finally create a menu editor? But since we have this nice band-aid(tm) out in the open we won't get those bug reports and no one will think it's too much pain to live without a decent menu editor. Removing the item won't fix the lack of menu editor, it won't fix the lack of .desktop files. It won't encourage a mass fix of these issues. It won't be a step in the right direction to get us away from the shitty execution model we're stuck with at the moment. It'll just be another example of our ability to punch our users in the face without making real progress. I'm pretty jacked off that my comments have been slighted by reference, without direct discussion. That's pretty lame. I belive you may be referring to my email. I regretted sending it not too long after it was gone. You are right that it was really lame. I wish I could sugar coat it somehow, but the best I can do is chalk it up to a bad day and apologize to both you and Murray. Sorry. However, can I just state that the way this thread has turned really scares me? This thread sounds to me like a step towards design by committee and removal of authority from maintainers (the thread sounds like a total rejection of the idea altogether rather than as a rejection of the patch for 2.10). Perhaps there's an important difference between what's occuring in this thread and that, but I'm missing it. Elijah ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Request for breakage in gnome-panel
quote who=Elijah Newren I belive you may be referring to my email. I regretted sending it not too long after it was gone. You are right that it was really lame. I wish I could sugar coat it somehow, but the best I can do is chalk it up to a bad day and apologize to both you and Murray. Sorry. Not really, mostly Havoc and Bryan. :-) However, can I just state that the way this thread has turned really scares me? This thread sounds to me like a step towards design by committee and removal of authority from maintainers (the thread sounds like a total rejection of the idea altogether rather than as a rejection of the patch for 2.10). Perhaps there's an important difference between what's occuring in this thread and that, but I'm missing it. I don't think it's scary in those terms. It will be removed in 2.12 whether the peanut gallery (in this case, me) likes it or not. It was rejected for 2.10 because we're well enough into freeze that it just doesn't make sense. My points were about entirely different issues to that of appropriateness in the release process or maintainer responsibility. One of my growing concerns is that we are becoming very blasé about changing things without focusing on the costs and benefits of doing so. In this case, I felt that the cost soundly outweighed the benefit. What are we *giving* the user when making this change? was a significant question when I set about writing the menu change proposal. My objection to the removal of the Run Applcation... item was inaccurately characterised as a fear of change or improvement, which was disappointing. In fact, it's quite the opposite: it's a call for measurable user-visible improvement so we're not making willy-nilly fixes that only serve to piss off our users. Let's make *really* good changes, not just ones that appeal to our esoteric sense of right and wrong. I very rarely use the Run Application... dialogue. I don't particularly like having it around. I hope we have a model in the future that makes it wholly irrelevant. But I can't rationalise removing it, because I can't see any direct benefit to users by doing so, or that it is inflicting obvious harm. We are very good at coming up with focused solutions to real user problems, and pushing hard past the pain of change to deliver software that Just Works. But sometimes, we're too keen to fix some of the grubby symptoms of brokenness - not the real problems causing it - and in doing so, we harm our users (and our user appeal). In fact, I think I've *just* realised why this happens, too. I will have to think carefully about it, and then write something up. - Jeff -- UbuntuDownUnder: April 25th-30th http://www.ubuntu.com/ So between a jazz musician, a murderer, and a congressperson, all called 'Dave Camp', I have a lot of pressure to be evil. - GNOME's Dave Camp ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Request for breakage in gnome-panel
quote who=Jeff Waugh I very rarely use the Run Application... dialogue. I don't particularly like having it around. I hope we have a model in the future that makes it wholly irrelevant. But I can't rationalise removing it, because I can't see any direct benefit to users by doing so, or that it is inflicting obvious harm. (Just to clarify, I'm talking about the menu item to launch the dialogue, as discussed earlier, not the dialogue itself.) - Jeff -- UbuntuDownUnder: April 25th-30th http://www.ubuntu.com/ So I'll have to talk about what I know instead. If you are so inclined, you may infer that I am totally oblivious to anything I don't talk about today. - Larry Wall ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Request for breakage in gnome-panel
I support this strongly; I understand the conceptual model behind putting run application... in Applications but it totally doesn't fit with anything else we do. Luis On Sat, 12 Feb 2005 19:19:05 -0500, Bryan Clark [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey ~ I'm requesting a break in the 2.10 freeze for bug 167090 [*] to go through. I put some detailed reasons in the first comment of that bug. Plus there is also some fascinating commentary by me in comment 13 of bug 161613 [**] regarding the same issue. ;-) Simply put I'd like to remove the 'Run Application' menu item from the Applications menu top level since it shouldn't be something that most of our users are expected to interact with very often or at all. This doesn't mean removing it's functionality, just removing it from the main menu. This isn't a very big deal obviously, I feel it's just a bit of polish that I'd like to see make it in. Thanks to Vincent for doing all this awesome work. Thoughts? Votes? Thanks for your time, ~ Bryan [*] http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=167090 [**] http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=161613#c13 ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Request for breakage in gnome-panel
quote who=Bryan Clark Simply put I'd like to remove the 'Run Application' menu item from the Applications menu top level since it shouldn't be something that most of our users are expected to interact with very often or at all. This doesn't mean removing it's functionality, just removing it from the main menu. Minor comment, I don't necessarily disagree: We are going to get flamed for this change. Particularly since there's no way to customize the menus (and I don't mean menu editing, more like toolbar/menu editors in office apps). - Jeff -- linux.conf.au 2005: Canberra, Australiahttp://linux.conf.au/ Jeff: Whatchootalkin'boutwillis? Pia: What's Willis? ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Request for breakage in gnome-panel
On Sun, 2005-13-02 at 12:58 +1100, Jeff Waugh wrote: quote who=Elijah Newren On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 12:36:39 +1100, Jeff Waugh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: quote who=Colin Walters Personally, whenever I want to run Emacs or whatever's not in the menu, I use Alt-F2, not the menu item. I suspect this is fairly common for people who use the Run Application dialog a lot. Uh huh. We are going to get flamed for this change. According to the bug report Bryan referenced, this change doesn't affect that; it's only about whether there's an entry in the menu for Run Application. Yes, my response was more to the effect of, despite attempted rationale, we are still going to get flamed for this change. - Jeff Yeah we're gonna get flamed. ;) Personally I'd rather put it the chimera known as Desktop, than drop it all together. I also agree with Jeff's Warty response as well, no matter where you put it, its not going to be perfect -- so is it worth the breakage? Cheers, Ryan ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
