Re: no way to change theme or fonts in System Settings?

2011-03-17 Thread Bastien Nocera
On Thu, 2011-03-17 at 13:33 +0100, Dave Neary wrote:
> Hi Allan,
> 
> Allan Day wrote:
> > Note: I don't think we should be 'recommending' such a tool as a part of
> > the GNOME 3 experience. GNOME 3 is great as is, and people shouldn't
> > need to change it. If they desperately want to tweak, they can, of
> > course; and John has provided an easy way to do it (go John!)
> 
> This, of course, depends on your definition of tweaking. If you want to
> change the theme, background, speaker volume or the printer you'd like
> to print to by default, that's not tweaking, that's configuration.

Changing the theme is tweaking, changing the colours of it or changing
the background is personalisation, changing the speaker volume is a
setting (if it can even be called that), changing the default printer is
definitely a setting.

We support personalisation, and settings, but not tweaking. Also see
discussions about the content of the Android and iOS app stores (where
best-sellers on Android are tweak tools, vs. real applications that do
thins on iOS, we definitely want to follow the latter category, but you
can still have tweak tools without jailbreaking GNOME :)

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Re: no way to change theme or fonts in System Settings?

2011-03-17 Thread Bastien Nocera
On Fri, 2011-03-18 at 01:19 +1300, John Stowers wrote:
> > Let me know when you have a bugzilla component. There's a number of
> > control-center bugs that should be coming your way.
> 
> Done.
> 
> https://bugzilla.gnome.org/browse.cgi?product=gnome-tweak-tool
> 
> John (nervously awaiting bug onslaught...)

Onslaught, I don't know, but there's 8 bugs in there now. Have fun!

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Re: no way to change theme or fonts in System Settings?

2011-03-17 Thread Dave Neary
Hi Allan,

Allan Day wrote:
> Note: I don't think we should be 'recommending' such a tool as a part of
> the GNOME 3 experience. GNOME 3 is great as is, and people shouldn't
> need to change it. If they desperately want to tweak, they can, of
> course; and John has provided an easy way to do it (go John!)

This, of course, depends on your definition of tweaking. If you want to
change the theme, background, speaker volume or the printer you'd like
to print to by default, that's not tweaking, that's configuration.

Cheers,
Dave.

-- 
Dave Neary
GNOME Foundation member
dne...@gnome.org
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Re: no way to change theme or fonts in System Settings?

2011-03-17 Thread Andreas Nilsson

On 03/17/2011 12:28 PM, Juanjo Marin wrote:

El jue, 17-03-2011 a las 10:55 +, Allan Day escribió:

Note: I don't think we should be 'recommending' such a tool as a part of
the GNOME 3 experience. GNOME 3 is great as is, and people shouldn't
need to change it. If they desperately want to tweak, they can, of
course; and John has provided an easy way to do it (go John!)

I agree, but IMHO, it is common for users to change the theme, so, even
without promoting it, a lot of users will be using this tweaking tool if
it is the only way for do it.
Sorry for bringing up analogies here, but I share an office with a 
company who specialize in user support for Linux and in the same 
building is also (what I would call) a geek-café [1] and one thing that 
really surprised me over time was the massive number of users who never 
changes these settings. This is not really any data that I would dare my 
life on, but I still found it really interesting.
That said, we are too late for 3.0 and need get that release out of the 
door, and there is also a mailing list specific for the control center 
where I think it would be best to hold this discussion, as this is a 
subject that can become quite noisy _really fast_. The list is 
gnomecc-list [2].


1. http://www.gnutiken.se/
2. http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnomecc-list
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Re: no way to change theme or fonts in System Settings?

2011-03-17 Thread John Stowers
> Let me know when you have a bugzilla component. There's a number of
> control-center bugs that should be coming your way.

Done.

https://bugzilla.gnome.org/browse.cgi?product=gnome-tweak-tool

John (nervously awaiting bug onslaught...)

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Re: no way to change theme or fonts in System Settings?

2011-03-17 Thread Bastien Nocera
On Thu, 2011-03-17 at 12:28 +0100, Juanjo Marin wrote:
> El jue, 17-03-2011 a las 10:55 +, Allan Day escribió:
> > On Thu, 2011-03-17 at 11:15 +0100, Dave Neary wrote:
> > > Hi,
> > > 
> > > Jasper St. Pierre wrote:
> > > > The story I've heard is that we haven't supported themes because we
> > > > make no guarantees about CSS class stability: CSS support was a nifty
> > > > thing that was added so that we could put up a couple actors and mold
> > > > them like clay into our mockups very quickly and easily. With the
> > > > gnome 3 release, I doubt we'll add have a theme switcher out of the
> > > > box.
> > > > 
> > > > We've accepted patches to add API to make it easier for people making
> > > > third-party theme switchers: SardemFF7 has one, a random guy from
> > > > deviantart (not half-left) has another, and there's also
> > > > gnome-plumbing and gnome-tweak-tool.
> > > 
> > > Thanks for the info, Jasper! Is there a blessed/recommended tweak tool
> > > that people should be suggesting when we get asked these questions?
> > 
> > gnome-plumbing never existed. I would point people to John's
> > gnome-tweak-tool.
> > 
> > Note: I don't think we should be 'recommending' such a tool as a part of
> > the GNOME 3 experience. GNOME 3 is great as is, and people shouldn't
> > need to change it. If they desperately want to tweak, they can, of
> > course; and John has provided an easy way to do it (go John!)
> 
> I agree, but IMHO, it is common for users to change the theme, so, even
> without promoting it, a lot of users will be using this tweaking tool if
> it is the only way for do it.
> 
> For me tweaking is changing parameters that it is tought that users
> shouldn't change, but I find strange the only way to change the
> theme/fonts is through tweaking :) 

Changing either theme or font would detract from our visual identity.
And we also cannot offer users to switch to different themes and expect
all those themes to be of the high quality one would expect from the one
shipped in GNOME 3. My guess is that if you're willing to possibly break
the appearance of a number of applications, we want to make it clear
that you shouldn't start filing bugs against whichever product offered
you that ability.

There are however some missing parts to the customisation that we might
want to revisit, such allowing users to tweak colours, but this would
need to be designed, and thought out.

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Re: no way to change theme or fonts in System Settings?

2011-03-17 Thread Juanjo Marin
El jue, 17-03-2011 a las 10:55 +, Allan Day escribió:
> On Thu, 2011-03-17 at 11:15 +0100, Dave Neary wrote:
> > Hi,
> > 
> > Jasper St. Pierre wrote:
> > > The story I've heard is that we haven't supported themes because we
> > > make no guarantees about CSS class stability: CSS support was a nifty
> > > thing that was added so that we could put up a couple actors and mold
> > > them like clay into our mockups very quickly and easily. With the
> > > gnome 3 release, I doubt we'll add have a theme switcher out of the
> > > box.
> > > 
> > > We've accepted patches to add API to make it easier for people making
> > > third-party theme switchers: SardemFF7 has one, a random guy from
> > > deviantart (not half-left) has another, and there's also
> > > gnome-plumbing and gnome-tweak-tool.
> > 
> > Thanks for the info, Jasper! Is there a blessed/recommended tweak tool
> > that people should be suggesting when we get asked these questions?
> 
> gnome-plumbing never existed. I would point people to John's
> gnome-tweak-tool.
> 
> Note: I don't think we should be 'recommending' such a tool as a part of
> the GNOME 3 experience. GNOME 3 is great as is, and people shouldn't
> need to change it. If they desperately want to tweak, they can, of
> course; and John has provided an easy way to do it (go John!)

I agree, but IMHO, it is common for users to change the theme, so, even
without promoting it, a lot of users will be using this tweaking tool if
it is the only way for do it.

For me tweaking is changing parameters that it is tought that users
shouldn't change, but I find strange the only way to change the
theme/fonts is through tweaking :) 

Cheers,

  -- Juanjo Marin


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Re: no way to change theme or fonts in System Settings?

2011-03-17 Thread Bastien Nocera
On Thu, 2011-03-17 at 23:45 +1300, John Stowers wrote:
> > 
> > There'll be a tool for that, although that is an add-on tool (ie, not
> > part of the control center). Since I've been lagging on this, John
> > Stowers stepped up and moved much faster than I did (he also chose
> > python while I was playing with js ;-)):
> >  https://github.com/nzjrs/gnome-tweak-tool
> > 
> > (kudos to John!)
> > 
> > This needs some love, and we'll import that in git.gnome.org, I assume.
> > But yeah, that's how we will deal with this :-)
> 
> I wanted to finish of a few more things, but this has been imported onto
> the GNOME git now, and lives here;
> 
> http://git.gnome.org/browse/gnome-tweak-tool/
> http://imgur.com/a/NmL44#By22E (screenshots)
> 
> It supports most of the contentious issues I saw people talking about,
> and some extra niceties like gtk theme switching (only shows themes that
> have gtk+-2 and gtk+-3 support), and shell theme switching +
> installation (needs the usertheme extension from [1])
> 
> Adding 'tweaks' for new things is pretty easy, see tweaks/tweak_*.py for
> examples.
> 
> Feedback appreciated.

Let me know when you have a bugzilla component. There's a number of
control-center bugs that should be coming your way.

Cheers

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Re: no way to change theme or fonts in System Settings?

2011-03-17 Thread Allan Day
On Thu, 2011-03-17 at 11:15 +0100, Dave Neary wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Jasper St. Pierre wrote:
> > The story I've heard is that we haven't supported themes because we
> > make no guarantees about CSS class stability: CSS support was a nifty
> > thing that was added so that we could put up a couple actors and mold
> > them like clay into our mockups very quickly and easily. With the
> > gnome 3 release, I doubt we'll add have a theme switcher out of the
> > box.
> > 
> > We've accepted patches to add API to make it easier for people making
> > third-party theme switchers: SardemFF7 has one, a random guy from
> > deviantart (not half-left) has another, and there's also
> > gnome-plumbing and gnome-tweak-tool.
> 
> Thanks for the info, Jasper! Is there a blessed/recommended tweak tool
> that people should be suggesting when we get asked these questions?

gnome-plumbing never existed. I would point people to John's
gnome-tweak-tool.

Note: I don't think we should be 'recommending' such a tool as a part of
the GNOME 3 experience. GNOME 3 is great as is, and people shouldn't
need to change it. If they desperately want to tweak, they can, of
course; and John has provided an easy way to do it (go John!)

Allan
-- 
Blog: http://afaikblog.wordpress.com/
IRC: aday on irc.gnome.org

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Re: no way to change theme or fonts in System Settings?

2011-03-17 Thread John Stowers

> 
> There'll be a tool for that, although that is an add-on tool (ie, not
> part of the control center). Since I've been lagging on this, John
> Stowers stepped up and moved much faster than I did (he also chose
> python while I was playing with js ;-)):
>  https://github.com/nzjrs/gnome-tweak-tool
> 
> (kudos to John!)
> 
> This needs some love, and we'll import that in git.gnome.org, I assume.
> But yeah, that's how we will deal with this :-)

I wanted to finish of a few more things, but this has been imported onto
the GNOME git now, and lives here;

http://git.gnome.org/browse/gnome-tweak-tool/
http://imgur.com/a/NmL44#By22E (screenshots)

It supports most of the contentious issues I saw people talking about,
and some extra niceties like gtk theme switching (only shows themes that
have gtk+-2 and gtk+-3 support), and shell theme switching +
installation (needs the usertheme extension from [1])

Adding 'tweaks' for new things is pretty easy, see tweaks/tweak_*.py for
examples.

Feedback appreciated.

Oh, and the new pygobject (+ gobject-introspection) is seven types of
awesome.

John

[1] http://git.gnome.org/browse/gnome-shell-extensions


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Re: no way to change theme or fonts in System Settings?

2011-03-17 Thread Dave Neary
Hi,

Jasper St. Pierre wrote:
> The story I've heard is that we haven't supported themes because we
> make no guarantees about CSS class stability: CSS support was a nifty
> thing that was added so that we could put up a couple actors and mold
> them like clay into our mockups very quickly and easily. With the
> gnome 3 release, I doubt we'll add have a theme switcher out of the
> box.
> 
> We've accepted patches to add API to make it easier for people making
> third-party theme switchers: SardemFF7 has one, a random guy from
> deviantart (not half-left) has another, and there's also
> gnome-plumbing and gnome-tweak-tool.

Thanks for the info, Jasper! Is there a blessed/recommended tweak tool
that people should be suggesting when we get asked these questions?

Cheers,
Dave.

-- 
Dave Neary
GNOME Foundation member
dne...@gnome.org
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Re: no way to change theme or fonts in System Settings?

2011-03-17 Thread Vincent Untz
Le mercredi 16 mars 2011, à 19:31 -0700, Adam Dingle a écrit :
> In the current GNOME 3 build the System Settings application doesn't seem to
> give me any way to change my fonts or theme.  This seems like a significant
> regression from the previous Control Center, which offered the Appearance
> applet for this purpose.  Was theme/font configuration removed
> intentionally?  Or is it planned, but there simply hasn't been time to
> implement this in System Settings yet?  Will there be any way a user can
> configure these through the GUI in GNOME 3.0?

There'll be a tool for that, although that is an add-on tool (ie, not
part of the control center). Since I've been lagging on this, John
Stowers stepped up and moved much faster than I did (he also chose
python while I was playing with js ;-)):
 https://github.com/nzjrs/gnome-tweak-tool

(kudos to John!)

This needs some love, and we'll import that in git.gnome.org, I assume.
But yeah, that's how we will deal with this :-)

Cheers,

Vincent

-- 
Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés.
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Re: no way to change theme or fonts in System Settings?

2011-03-17 Thread Jasper St. Pierre
The story I've heard is that we haven't supported themes because we
make no guarantees about CSS class stability: CSS support was a nifty
thing that was added so that we could put up a couple actors and mold
them like clay into our mockups very quickly and easily. With the
gnome 3 release, I doubt we'll add have a theme switcher out of the
box.

We've accepted patches to add API to make it easier for people making
third-party theme switchers: SardemFF7 has one, a random guy from
deviantart (not half-left) has another, and there's also
gnome-plumbing and gnome-tweak-tool.

On Thu, Mar 17, 2011 at 5:40 AM, Dave Neary  wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Jason D. Clinton wrote:
>> On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 21:31, Adam Dingle  wrote:
>>> In the current GNOME 3 build the System Settings application doesn't seem to
>>> give me any way to change my fonts or theme.
>>
>> Fonts > A11y capplet.
>> There are no other GTK+3 themes available at the moment.
>
> That's hardly reassuring, is it? It doesn't answer the question of
> whether this is a short-term "we haven't done it yet" or a longer-term
> "we don't plan to support themes".
>
> Presumably (although I don't know), theme support is forthcoming
> shortly, and just hasn't been completed yet? I know that supporting
> different fonts in the interface via a control center module doesn't
> exist right now, but perhaps someone in the know (Allan? Jon?) could say
> whether this is planned soon, or is a design decision.
>
> Cheers,
> Dave.
>
> --
> Dave Neary
> GNOME Foundation member
> dne...@gnome.org
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Re: no way to change theme or fonts in System Settings?

2011-03-17 Thread Dave Neary
Hi,

Jason D. Clinton wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 21:31, Adam Dingle  wrote:
>> In the current GNOME 3 build the System Settings application doesn't seem to
>> give me any way to change my fonts or theme.
> 
> Fonts > A11y capplet.
> There are no other GTK+3 themes available at the moment.

That's hardly reassuring, is it? It doesn't answer the question of
whether this is a short-term "we haven't done it yet" or a longer-term
"we don't plan to support themes".

Presumably (although I don't know), theme support is forthcoming
shortly, and just hasn't been completed yet? I know that supporting
different fonts in the interface via a control center module doesn't
exist right now, but perhaps someone in the know (Allan? Jon?) could say
whether this is planned soon, or is a design decision.

Cheers,
Dave.

-- 
Dave Neary
GNOME Foundation member
dne...@gnome.org
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Re: no way to change theme or fonts in System Settings?

2011-03-16 Thread Jason D. Clinton
On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 21:31, Adam Dingle  wrote:
> In the current GNOME 3 build the System Settings application doesn't seem to
> give me any way to change my fonts or theme.

Fonts > A11y capplet.
There are no other GTK+3 themes available at the moment.
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no way to change theme or fonts in System Settings?

2011-03-16 Thread Adam Dingle
In the current GNOME 3 build the System Settings application doesn't seem to
give me any way to change my fonts or theme.  This seems like a significant
regression from the previous Control Center, which offered the Appearance
applet for this purpose.  Was theme/font configuration removed
intentionally?  Or is it planned, but there simply hasn't been time to
implement this in System Settings yet?  Will there be any way a user can
configure these through the GUI in GNOME 3.0?

adam
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