Re: Integratign a W3C XForms implementation into the Cocoon Project?
Niclas Hedhman wrote: Since it never arrived... Berin Loritsch said: Robert Simmons wrote: Greetings, One thing that I would like to see is Cocoon supporting the XForms 1.0 standard as described on W3C. http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/ I would advise against the XForms standard because it is severely broken for client/server type applications. XForms ONLY makes sense in a pure client setting. I would like to hear an elaboration of why this is the case. Why would this not be useful? App-->XForm --XHTML adaption--> XHTML form | | user action | | V App<--XML Result <--adaption-- XHTML Response And later when the UA is XForm capable, the adaption stage is dropped from the pipeline. In the eXFormula project I did a while ago, with the spec as it was, we could only go so far. Not to mention that the XForms document mixes alot in the equation. You need to gain information from three sources: model, view, and controller. These are wired together via XML documents. Unfortunately, sometimes the XML documents are all assembled into one and other times they are completely separate. This makes the adaptation layer very complex. In many cases it would be far easier to work it all in the client where we have access to the documents in a much more easily used manner. -- "They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin
Re: Integratign a W3C XForms implementation into the Cocoon Project?
Berin Loritsch said: > Robert Simmons wrote: >> Greetings, >> >> One thing that I would like to see is Cocoon supporting the >> XForms 1.0 standard as described on W3C. >> >> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/ >> > > I would advise against the XForms standard because it is severely > broken for client/server type applications. XForms ONLY makes > sense in a pure client setting. I would like to hear an elaboration of why this is the case. Why would this not be useful? App-->XForm --XHTML adaption--> XHTML form | | user action | | V App<--XML Result <--adaption-- XHTML Response And later when the UA is XForm capable, the adaption stage is dropped from the pipeline. Just curious. Niclas
Re: Integratign a W3C XForms implementation into the Cocoon Project?
Actually, I am aware of that project. I was merely suggesting it be brought under the cocoon umbrella as it is. Many projects sit in sourceforge and are worked on for a while but die when one dev that created them leaves. On the other hand, Apache projects tend to marshall more resources. I think of sourceforge as something of an incubator that projects should be extracted from if they merit it. -- Robert "Chris Clark" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Surprised you didn't see this: http://sourceforge.net/project/shownotes.php?group_id=20274&release_id=150523 I haven't looked at in depth so it might not be what you're after, but the Chiba site has a "Chicoon" project that is labeled as an integration of Cocoon and Chiba. > -Original Message- > From: Robert Simmons [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2003 4:31 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Integratign a W3C XForms implementation into the Cocoon Project? > > Greetings, > > One thing that I would like to see is Cocoon supporting the XForms 1.0 standard > as described on W3C. > > http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/ > > There is currently a product in the open source community called Chiba that > accomplishes a good portion of this integration. This could be built upon using > the higher developer resources to the benefit of Cocoon. > > http://chiba.sourceforge.net/ > > I think it might be worth it to have Cocoon and Apache talk to the developer of > Chiba about integrating it into the Cocoon project. Although XMLForms is useful, > it simply isnt the standard anymore. Why implement what is already most of the > way working? > > -- Robert > > >
Re: Integratign a W3C XForms implementation into the Cocoon Project?
Robert Simmons wrote: I would disagree with that. XForms has some interraction that is client specific but it can, most assuredly, operate in a client-server environment quite effectively as chiba demonstrates. Some stuff on the client side would need to be implemented in javascript but that is ok. These are only events that work on validating documents. I would push XForms any day over non standard solutions. Oh, I'm sorry. The work I did trying to support XForms a while ago, was nothing and I have no basis for my argument. Never mind the fact that I tried to work with the XForms expert group in the past to make it a bit more open to a Client/ Server environment, but the experts had their minds set on a client only implementation (and even said as much). Never mind the fact that the validation layer, and client interaction assumes a constant connection with the user. I just don't know what I am talking about. Give me a break will you? Wehn XForms is widely adopted, do we want cocoon to be the only web publishing framework that doesnt support them? When XForms is widely adopted the only thing Cocoon will need to do is accept the XML results. I doubt Cocoon will have a problem with it. When XForms is widely adopted there will be support for it in IE and Mozilla. -- "They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin
Re: Integratign a W3C XForms implementation into the Cocoon Project?
Since it never arrived... Berin Loritsch said: > Robert Simmons wrote: >> Greetings, >> >> One thing that I would like to see is Cocoon supporting the >> XForms 1.0 standard as described on W3C. >> >> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/ >> > > I would advise against the XForms standard because it is > severely broken for client/server type applications. XForms > ONLY makes > sense in a pure client setting. I would like to hear an elaboration of why this is the case. Why would this not be useful? App-->XForm --XHTML adaption--> XHTML form | | user action | | V App<--XML Result <--adaption-- XHTML Response And later when the UA is XForm capable, the adaption stage is dropped from the pipeline. Just curious. Niclas
Re: Integratign a W3C XForms implementation into the Cocoon Project?
Robert Simmons said: > Wehn XForms is widely adopted, do we want cocoon to be the only > web publishing framework that doesnt support them? I am far from an XForm expert, but saying that Cocoon will not support XForm when the User Agents doesn is a little bit of overstatement isn't it? The POST from the UA will be an XML document, and if there is something Cocoon is good at, it is to take care of XML input. So, "when Xform is widely adopted" I think this is not an issue in Cocoon. However, Cocoon has many times in the past proved a useful platform for bridging new technologies with olds (such as creating PNG out of SVGs for non-svg capable UAs), and that is when we need Cocoon support of a new technology. (For some reason, my mails takes a long time to reach the mailing list. I already covered this an hour ago. Maybe have to re-send.) Niclas
Re: Integratign a W3C XForms implementation into the Cocoon Project?
I would disagree with that. XForms has some interraction that is client specific but it can, most assuredly, operate in a client-server environment quite effectively as chiba demonstrates. Some stuff on the client side would need to be implemented in javascript but that is ok. These are only events that work on validating documents. I would push XForms any day over non standard solutions. Wehn XForms is widely adopted, do we want cocoon to be the only web publishing framework that doesnt support them? -- Robert "Berin Loritsch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Robert Simmons wrote: > > Greetings, > > > > One thing that I would like to see is Cocoon supporting the XForms 1.0 standard > > as described on W3C. > > > > http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/ > > > > I would advise against the XForms standard because it is severely broken for > client/server type applications. XForms ONLY makes sense in a pure client > setting. > > > > -- > > "They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety > deserve neither liberty nor safety." > - Benjamin Franklin > >
RE: Integratign a W3C XForms implementation into the Cocoon Project?
Surprised you didn't see this: http://sourceforge.net/project/shownotes.php?group_id=20274&release_id=150523 I haven't looked at in depth so it might not be what you're after, but the Chiba site has a "Chicoon" project that is labeled as an integration of Cocoon and Chiba. > -Original Message- > From: Robert Simmons [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2003 4:31 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Integratign a W3C XForms implementation into the Cocoon Project? > > Greetings, > > One thing that I would like to see is Cocoon supporting the XForms 1.0 standard > as described on W3C. > > http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/ > > There is currently a product in the open source community called Chiba that > accomplishes a good portion of this integration. This could be built upon using > the higher developer resources to the benefit of Cocoon. > > http://chiba.sourceforge.net/ > > I think it might be worth it to have Cocoon and Apache talk to the developer of > Chiba about integrating it into the Cocoon project. Although XMLForms is useful, > it simply isnt the standard anymore. Why implement what is already most of the > way working? > > -- Robert > > >
Re: Integratign a W3C XForms implementation into the Cocoon Project?
Robert Simmons wrote: Greetings, One thing that I would like to see is Cocoon supporting the XForms 1.0 standard as described on W3C. http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/ I would advise against the XForms standard because it is severely broken for client/server type applications. XForms ONLY makes sense in a pure client setting. -- "They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin
