Re: Roadmap, Vision and everything
On Friday 16 December 2005 00:53, Jorg Heymans wrote: > well it's not just the cocoon artifact i'm talking about. Various of our > dependent libs aren't on ibiblio yet, so i uploaded them to > cvs.apache.org. Ok. But even better if you coordinate with the Maven peeps, so that everyone else gets the benefit in the same breath. Perhaps I wasn't clear; There is a mirror from the ASF infrastructure to the Maven repository on ibiblio.org, so all ASF committers can publish to ibiblio.org, if only following some guidelines (sorry no link for these at this point in time). Cheers Niclas
Re: Roadmap, Vision and everything
Niclas Hedhman wrote: > On Thursday 15 December 2005 03:52, Jorg Heymans wrote: >> - sign off repository usage of cvs.apache.org (will possible get hit by >> a *large* number of downloads once we do a release) or move dependencies >> to ibiblio > > With the use of M2 and the proper upload locations for Cocoon stuff, > everything will end up on iBiblio, so don't worry too much about "large > number of downloads"... well it's not just the cocoon artifact i'm talking about. Various of our dependent libs aren't on ibiblio yet, so i uploaded them to cvs.apache.org. I just wanted to make sure people are aware of this. Jorg
Re: Roadmap, Vision and everything
Le 15 déc. 05, à 11:10, Andrew Savory a écrit : ...Some ideas of open-ended questions ... - Have you built any Cocoon sites? (If so, how many?) I'd say "applications" instead of "sites" - What do you like about Cocoon? - What do you dislike about Cocoon? - What would you like to see improved? - What do you think Cocoon gets right? - What do you think is the most important feature missing from Cocoon? any other suggestions? How important are the following features and components for your projects, do you actually use them? Replies could be "critical", "useful", "don't use it" "hate it", for example. a) Publishing features (sitemaps, XSLT, pipelines etc.) b) Cocoon Forms c) Flowscript, integration of custom Java components, etc. d) Cocoon Portal e) XSP -Bertrand smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature
Re: Roadmap, Vision and everything
Hi, On 14 Dec 2005, at 17:34, Carsten Ziegeler wrote: And I think, for that we really need opinions from the users because they know best what they don't like about Cocoon and what makes it hard to use it. So I suggest (I think someone else suggested this some time ago) to make a user poll. We could simply but a form somewhere where users can anonymously enter some feedback into and we can evaluate the responses and perhaps we get some more ideas on what we can do. Perhaps we get some flames or spam but we can simply filter that out. Ok, I'd be willing to set up a poll. But before I randomly ask for feedback, do we want to focus it a little more, ask more targeted questions? Some ideas of open-ended questions ... - Have you built any Cocoon sites? (If so, how many?) - What do you like about Cocoon? - What do you dislike about Cocoon? - What would you like to see improved? - What do you think Cocoon gets right? - What do you think is the most important feature missing from Cocoon? any other suggestions? Andrew. -- Andrew Savory, Managing Director, Luminas Limited Tel: +44 (0)870 741 6658 Fax: +44 (0)700 598 1135 Web: http://www.luminas.co.uk/ Orixo alliance: http://www.orixo.com/
Re: Roadmap, Vision and everything
On Thursday 15 December 2005 03:52, Jorg Heymans wrote: > - sign off repository usage of cvs.apache.org (will possible get hit by > a *large* number of downloads once we do a release) or move dependencies > to ibiblio With the use of M2 and the proper upload locations for Cocoon stuff, everything will end up on iBiblio, so don't worry too much about "large number of downloads"... Cheers Niclas
Re: Roadmap, Vision and everything
Carsten Ziegeler wrote: > What we definitly need is a list of what needs to be done for finishing > the m2 move. If someone could come up with a list of bullet points, so > everyone could help on this, I guess it should be really easy get finished. IMO following points belong to the "m2 move". - finalize block structure so we can start converting a few blocks in the repo to this new structure - block deployment mechanism - write block descriptors - tidy up poms for core and important blocks - create assembly descriptor for minimal binary release - repository reorganisation (largely independent of previous points) - documentation + how to develop cocoon using maven + how to develop apps using maven and cocoon + document maven build and release procedures - sign off repository usage of cvs.apache.org (will possible get hit by a *large* number of downloads once we do a release) or move dependencies to ibiblio - release cocoon-core archetype (this involves fixing certain bugs in the archetype plugin as it really prevents us from using it effectively) That's all I can think of now. If we just want to get *something* out of the door for people to play with then we definitely don't need all of this. Jorg
Roadmap, Vision and everything
After the BOF yesterday I think it's clear that in the end we all want the same - more or less at least. But everyone of us is currently focusing on a different part/problem or seeing it from a different view point. If you look at other open source projects, they have something which we really lack for years: a roadmap. We really should start creating one, either on the wiki, in Daisy or in Jira - I don't care where and how as long as we are doing one. We can add all points in there and then connect them to a future release. For example, moving to m2 would be one point we connect to the 2.2 release while the environment revamping will be connected to a later on. Of course such a roadmap is not fixed and we can move points back or forth, but the roadmap definitly helps us to see what we want to do and even more important it helps users to see what's comming up, where they possibly can help and with a little bit luck when it will be available. Apart from that we are talking a lot about a "vision" in the last days. My vision is "make Cocoon more usable and handable" and for me, we will meet this vision mostly with the current 2.2 *and* a working maven build that can then be used for my own projects depending on Cocoon. That will be a big improvement. Some of us have a different vision - which I totally agree to as well: years ago Cocoon was ahead of most other web frameworks - we have lost this status some time ago and we really need to do something to get at the top again - or Cocoon will really be obsolete. Yes, we really must work on this as well and therefore we definitly need more radical changes. If you look at the famous RoR there is one important point why people choose RoR: using it is really easy - the users do not care how it is implemented, they even don't care that they have to use a different language than java. Now, RoR has its strength in the crud world - I don't say that we should do the same as RoR does. Cocoon has a different focus and that's absolutely fine. But I say that we should try to adopt the ideas behind RoR: making the entry point as easy as possible (while maintaining the flexibility of course). Although I agree that we have to change things in the core, this will not directly bring us new users as they don't care about how the core is implemented - and they really should not care about that. So just redesigning/refactoring the core is not enough. We have to think about how to make everything easier to use, that's the key part for me. And I think, for that we really need opinions from the users because they know best what they don't like about Cocoon and what makes it hard to use it. So I suggest (I think someone else suggested this some time ago) to make a user poll. We could simply but a form somewhere where users can anonymously enter some feedback into and we can evaluate the responses and perhaps we get some more ideas on what we can do. Perhaps we get some flames or spam but we can simply filter that out. Ok, so I think, let's move to m2, release 2.2, create a roadmap and start working on next versions by using more feedback. I think we more or less agree on all this stuff. What we definitly need is a list of what needs to be done for finishing the m2 move. If someone could come up with a list of bullet points, so everyone could help on this, I guess it should be really easy get finished. (I would appreciate it if we could remove all the author tags and split the samples from the blocks as well, but that's an additional point). Carsten -- Carsten Ziegeler - Open Source Group, S&N AG http://www.s-und-n.de http://www.osoco.org/weblogs/rael/
