Re: Re: Re: [lang] Introduce @NonNull, and @Nullable
Yes of course, that's fine, but I was only referring to [lang], which is the component this thread is about. Gary On Mon, Feb 15, 2021, 19:03 sebb wrote: > On Mon, 15 Feb 2021 at 18:43, Gary Gregory wrote: > > > > Can we configure the Maven Enforcer plugin to say "no runtime deps"? > > Presumably not that helpful... but still _something_ > > Some components legitimately depend on others at runtime. > e.g. VFS on NET. > > > Gary > > > > > > On Mon, Feb 15, 2021 at 11:48 AM Thomas Schapitz wrote: > > > > > ... right into https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Is%E2%80%93ought_problem. > > > I thought more about something like a guide to be consulted before > > > introducing a new dependency, instead of a dashboard disclosing the > sins > > > post fact :-) > > > > > > I take that as a no. > > > > > > Thomas > > > > > > > > > > > > Gesendet: Montag, 15. Februar 2021 um 16:59 Uhr > > > Von: "Gary Gregory" > > > An: "Commons Developers List" > > > Betreff: Re: Re: [lang] Introduce @NonNull, and @Nullable > > > I do not think we need a wiki since each project should have a Maven > > > generated page like > > > https://commons.apache.org/proper/commons-lang/dependencies.html > > > > > > Gary > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Feb 15, 2021 at 9:32 AM Thomas Schapitz > wrote: > > > > > > > Oh, maybe I should pull more often... > > > > As far as I'm concerned, by all means, remove it, although I'm > probably > > > > the least one to call for that. > > > > > > > > And since we are at it: Are you aware of any explicit mentioning of a > > > > dependency policy wrt. commons? > > > > Maybe commons should set up some Wiki page, and start actively > managing > > > > that? > > > > A convenient place to point to, when discussions about that occur? > > > > > > > > Thomas > > > > > > > > Gesendet: Montag, 15. Februar 2021 um 14:38 Uhr > > > > Von: "Gary Gregory" > > > > An: "Commons Developers List" > > > > Betreff: Re: [lang] Introduce @NonNull, and @Nullable > > > > This is already in Commons Lang master which is why I want to remove > it > > > > until there is a long term plan we can agree on. > > > > > > > > Gary > > > > > > > > On Mon, Feb 15, 2021, 07:38 Thomas Schapitz wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Short Answer: No, but Yes in the long term... > > > > > > > > > > Long Answer: > > > > > Originally, (as of February 1.) Jochen proposed to introduce them > into > > > > > commons-lang, with mixed results for the answers. > > > > > So i think they've not yet have made it into master, or do they? > > > > > > > > > > I rummaged through central, and of the modules to be found there > > > beneath > > > > > org/apache/commons there are just two, that actually reference the > > > > > com.google.code.finbugs:jsr305:jar, and both are maven plugins: The > > > > > commons-release-plugin and the commons-weaver-maven-plugin (not yet > > > > > checked, whether they do transitively so). So I guess, this isn't a > > > > > pressing issue for commons in general or lang specifically. > > > > > > > > > > I also take it, that commons always has been cautions not to light > > > > > heartedly introduce dependencies, and foreign dependencies at that, > > > into > > > > > its core modules lang, collections, math etc. > > > > > > > > > > If commons made it this far without jsr305, don't start introducing > > > this > > > > > doomed package now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gesendet: Samstag, 13. Februar 2021 um 21:13 Uhr > > > > > Von: "Gary Gregory" > > > > > An: "Commons Developers List" > > > > > Betreff: Re: Re: [lang] Introduce @NonNull, and @Nullable > > > > > So... it is my impression now that we should remove these > annotations. > > > Is > > > > > that right? > > > > > > > > > > Gary > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Feb 12, 2021 at 6:28 PM Thomas Schapitz > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Not exactly, although that also seems, what the author of > > > > > > > > > > https://jspecify.dev/_sources/index.rst.txt[https://jspecify.dev/_sources/index.rst.txt] > > > is thinking. > > > > > > But given, that the last attempt at this went nowhere, and has > been > > > > > > abandoned about 10 years ago, I think it is rather unlikely, that > > > this > > > > > one > > > > > > would make the difference. > > > > > > > > > > > > And why should it be necessary for the user, to know the details > of > > > the > > > > > > interpretation of the checking framework? > > > > > > Annotations are kind of interfaces, and as such may be > interpreted > > > just > > > > > as > > > > > > any other interface as defining element of a contract, which > could be > > > > > > detailed in Javadoc. The same way as Eclipse Link and Hibernate > do > > > with > > > > > JPA > > > > > > annotations, while at least hibernate still also works with its > own > > > > > > annotations. > > > > > > > > > > > > In fact, @NotNull and its compannions can all be interpreted as > > > > > describing > > > > > > a predicate applying to certain elements of the source tree. So > all > > > > what >
Re: Re: Re: [lang] Introduce @NonNull, and @Nullable
On Mon, 15 Feb 2021 at 18:43, Gary Gregory wrote: > > Can we configure the Maven Enforcer plugin to say "no runtime deps"? > Presumably not that helpful... but still _something_ Some components legitimately depend on others at runtime. e.g. VFS on NET. > Gary > > > On Mon, Feb 15, 2021 at 11:48 AM Thomas Schapitz wrote: > > > ... right into https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Is%E2%80%93ought_problem. > > I thought more about something like a guide to be consulted before > > introducing a new dependency, instead of a dashboard disclosing the sins > > post fact :-) > > > > I take that as a no. > > > > Thomas > > > > > > > > Gesendet: Montag, 15. Februar 2021 um 16:59 Uhr > > Von: "Gary Gregory" > > An: "Commons Developers List" > > Betreff: Re: Re: [lang] Introduce @NonNull, and @Nullable > > I do not think we need a wiki since each project should have a Maven > > generated page like > > https://commons.apache.org/proper/commons-lang/dependencies.html > > > > Gary > > > > > > On Mon, Feb 15, 2021 at 9:32 AM Thomas Schapitz wrote: > > > > > Oh, maybe I should pull more often... > > > As far as I'm concerned, by all means, remove it, although I'm probably > > > the least one to call for that. > > > > > > And since we are at it: Are you aware of any explicit mentioning of a > > > dependency policy wrt. commons? > > > Maybe commons should set up some Wiki page, and start actively managing > > > that? > > > A convenient place to point to, when discussions about that occur? > > > > > > Thomas > > > > > > Gesendet: Montag, 15. Februar 2021 um 14:38 Uhr > > > Von: "Gary Gregory" > > > An: "Commons Developers List" > > > Betreff: Re: [lang] Introduce @NonNull, and @Nullable > > > This is already in Commons Lang master which is why I want to remove it > > > until there is a long term plan we can agree on. > > > > > > Gary > > > > > > On Mon, Feb 15, 2021, 07:38 Thomas Schapitz wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Short Answer: No, but Yes in the long term... > > > > > > > > Long Answer: > > > > Originally, (as of February 1.) Jochen proposed to introduce them into > > > > commons-lang, with mixed results for the answers. > > > > So i think they've not yet have made it into master, or do they? > > > > > > > > I rummaged through central, and of the modules to be found there > > beneath > > > > org/apache/commons there are just two, that actually reference the > > > > com.google.code.finbugs:jsr305:jar, and both are maven plugins: The > > > > commons-release-plugin and the commons-weaver-maven-plugin (not yet > > > > checked, whether they do transitively so). So I guess, this isn't a > > > > pressing issue for commons in general or lang specifically. > > > > > > > > I also take it, that commons always has been cautions not to light > > > > heartedly introduce dependencies, and foreign dependencies at that, > > into > > > > its core modules lang, collections, math etc. > > > > > > > > If commons made it this far without jsr305, don't start introducing > > this > > > > doomed package now. > > > > > > > > > > > > Gesendet: Samstag, 13. Februar 2021 um 21:13 Uhr > > > > Von: "Gary Gregory" > > > > An: "Commons Developers List" > > > > Betreff: Re: Re: [lang] Introduce @NonNull, and @Nullable > > > > So... it is my impression now that we should remove these annotations. > > Is > > > > that right? > > > > > > > > Gary > > > > > > > > On Fri, Feb 12, 2021 at 6:28 PM Thomas Schapitz > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Not exactly, although that also seems, what the author of > > > > > > > https://jspecify.dev/_sources/index.rst.txt[https://jspecify.dev/_sources/index.rst.txt] > > is thinking. > > > > > But given, that the last attempt at this went nowhere, and has been > > > > > abandoned about 10 years ago, I think it is rather unlikely, that > > this > > > > one > > > > > would make the difference. > > > > > > > > > > And why should it be necessary for the user, to know the details of > > the > > > > > interpretation of the checking framework? > > > > > Annotations are kind of interfaces, and as such may be interpreted > > just > > > > as > > > > > any other interface as defining element of a contract, which could be > > > > > detailed in Javadoc. The same way as Eclipse Link and Hibernate do > > with > > > > JPA > > > > > annotations, while at least hibernate still also works with its own > > > > > annotations. > > > > > > > > > > In fact, @NotNull and its compannions can all be interpreted as > > > > describing > > > > > a predicate applying to certain elements of the source tree. So all > > > what > > > > is > > > > > needed, is to match the annotations with the predicates, the > > framework > > > > can > > > > > support. The challenge is in the inference, when these predicates are > > > > > applied to the source tree. > > > > > > > > > > This way, a checker framework may take also advantage of the > > knowledge > > > > > hidden in foreign annotations: JPA, Hibernate, Jackson all have > > > > constructs > > > > > for indicating
Re: Re: Re: [lang] Introduce @NonNull, and @Nullable
Can we configure the Maven Enforcer plugin to say "no runtime deps"? Presumably not that helpful... but still _something_ Gary On Mon, Feb 15, 2021 at 11:48 AM Thomas Schapitz wrote: > ... right into https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Is%E2%80%93ought_problem. > I thought more about something like a guide to be consulted before > introducing a new dependency, instead of a dashboard disclosing the sins > post fact :-) > > I take that as a no. > > Thomas > > > > Gesendet: Montag, 15. Februar 2021 um 16:59 Uhr > Von: "Gary Gregory" > An: "Commons Developers List" > Betreff: Re: Re: [lang] Introduce @NonNull, and @Nullable > I do not think we need a wiki since each project should have a Maven > generated page like > https://commons.apache.org/proper/commons-lang/dependencies.html > > Gary > > > On Mon, Feb 15, 2021 at 9:32 AM Thomas Schapitz wrote: > > > Oh, maybe I should pull more often... > > As far as I'm concerned, by all means, remove it, although I'm probably > > the least one to call for that. > > > > And since we are at it: Are you aware of any explicit mentioning of a > > dependency policy wrt. commons? > > Maybe commons should set up some Wiki page, and start actively managing > > that? > > A convenient place to point to, when discussions about that occur? > > > > Thomas > > > > Gesendet: Montag, 15. Februar 2021 um 14:38 Uhr > > Von: "Gary Gregory" > > An: "Commons Developers List" > > Betreff: Re: [lang] Introduce @NonNull, and @Nullable > > This is already in Commons Lang master which is why I want to remove it > > until there is a long term plan we can agree on. > > > > Gary > > > > On Mon, Feb 15, 2021, 07:38 Thomas Schapitz wrote: > > > > > > > > Short Answer: No, but Yes in the long term... > > > > > > Long Answer: > > > Originally, (as of February 1.) Jochen proposed to introduce them into > > > commons-lang, with mixed results for the answers. > > > So i think they've not yet have made it into master, or do they? > > > > > > I rummaged through central, and of the modules to be found there > beneath > > > org/apache/commons there are just two, that actually reference the > > > com.google.code.finbugs:jsr305:jar, and both are maven plugins: The > > > commons-release-plugin and the commons-weaver-maven-plugin (not yet > > > checked, whether they do transitively so). So I guess, this isn't a > > > pressing issue for commons in general or lang specifically. > > > > > > I also take it, that commons always has been cautions not to light > > > heartedly introduce dependencies, and foreign dependencies at that, > into > > > its core modules lang, collections, math etc. > > > > > > If commons made it this far without jsr305, don't start introducing > this > > > doomed package now. > > > > > > > > > Gesendet: Samstag, 13. Februar 2021 um 21:13 Uhr > > > Von: "Gary Gregory" > > > An: "Commons Developers List" > > > Betreff: Re: Re: [lang] Introduce @NonNull, and @Nullable > > > So... it is my impression now that we should remove these annotations. > Is > > > that right? > > > > > > Gary > > > > > > On Fri, Feb 12, 2021 at 6:28 PM Thomas Schapitz > wrote: > > > > > > > Not exactly, although that also seems, what the author of > > > > > https://jspecify.dev/_sources/index.rst.txt[https://jspecify.dev/_sources/index.rst.txt] > is thinking. > > > > But given, that the last attempt at this went nowhere, and has been > > > > abandoned about 10 years ago, I think it is rather unlikely, that > this > > > one > > > > would make the difference. > > > > > > > > And why should it be necessary for the user, to know the details of > the > > > > interpretation of the checking framework? > > > > Annotations are kind of interfaces, and as such may be interpreted > just > > > as > > > > any other interface as defining element of a contract, which could be > > > > detailed in Javadoc. The same way as Eclipse Link and Hibernate do > with > > > JPA > > > > annotations, while at least hibernate still also works with its own > > > > annotations. > > > > > > > > In fact, @NotNull and its compannions can all be interpreted as > > > describing > > > > a predicate applying to certain elements of the source tree. So all > > what > > > is > > > > needed, is to match the annotations with the predicates, the > framework > > > can > > > > support. The challenge is in the inference, when these predicates are > > > > applied to the source tree. > > > > > > > > This way, a checker framework may take also advantage of the > knowledge > > > > hidden in foreign annotations: JPA, Hibernate, Jackson all have > > > constructs > > > > for indicating nullability and attribute sizes, that might be of use. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gesendet: Montag, 08. Februar 2021 um 00:37 Uhr > > > > Von: "Gary Gregory" > > > > An: "Commons Developers List" > > > > Betreff: Re: [lang] Introduce @NonNull, and @Nullable > > > > Isn't the root issue is that all toolchains need to agree on the new > > > > annotations? What's that
Aw: Re: Re: [lang] Introduce @NonNull, and @Nullable
... right into https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Is%E2%80%93ought_problem. I thought more about something like a guide to be consulted before introducing a new dependency, instead of a dashboard disclosing the sins post fact :-) I take that as a no. Thomas Gesendet: Montag, 15. Februar 2021 um 16:59 Uhr Von: "Gary Gregory" An: "Commons Developers List" Betreff: Re: Re: [lang] Introduce @NonNull, and @Nullable I do not think we need a wiki since each project should have a Maven generated page like https://commons.apache.org/proper/commons-lang/dependencies.html Gary On Mon, Feb 15, 2021 at 9:32 AM Thomas Schapitz wrote: > Oh, maybe I should pull more often... > As far as I'm concerned, by all means, remove it, although I'm probably > the least one to call for that. > > And since we are at it: Are you aware of any explicit mentioning of a > dependency policy wrt. commons? > Maybe commons should set up some Wiki page, and start actively managing > that? > A convenient place to point to, when discussions about that occur? > > Thomas > > Gesendet: Montag, 15. Februar 2021 um 14:38 Uhr > Von: "Gary Gregory" > An: "Commons Developers List" > Betreff: Re: [lang] Introduce @NonNull, and @Nullable > This is already in Commons Lang master which is why I want to remove it > until there is a long term plan we can agree on. > > Gary > > On Mon, Feb 15, 2021, 07:38 Thomas Schapitz wrote: > > > > > Short Answer: No, but Yes in the long term... > > > > Long Answer: > > Originally, (as of February 1.) Jochen proposed to introduce them into > > commons-lang, with mixed results for the answers. > > So i think they've not yet have made it into master, or do they? > > > > I rummaged through central, and of the modules to be found there beneath > > org/apache/commons there are just two, that actually reference the > > com.google.code.finbugs:jsr305:jar, and both are maven plugins: The > > commons-release-plugin and the commons-weaver-maven-plugin (not yet > > checked, whether they do transitively so). So I guess, this isn't a > > pressing issue for commons in general or lang specifically. > > > > I also take it, that commons always has been cautions not to light > > heartedly introduce dependencies, and foreign dependencies at that, into > > its core modules lang, collections, math etc. > > > > If commons made it this far without jsr305, don't start introducing this > > doomed package now. > > > > > > Gesendet: Samstag, 13. Februar 2021 um 21:13 Uhr > > Von: "Gary Gregory" > > An: "Commons Developers List" > > Betreff: Re: Re: [lang] Introduce @NonNull, and @Nullable > > So... it is my impression now that we should remove these annotations. Is > > that right? > > > > Gary > > > > On Fri, Feb 12, 2021 at 6:28 PM Thomas Schapitz wrote: > > > > > Not exactly, although that also seems, what the author of > > > https://jspecify.dev/_sources/index.rst.txt[https://jspecify.dev/_sources/index.rst.txt] > > > is thinking. > > > But given, that the last attempt at this went nowhere, and has been > > > abandoned about 10 years ago, I think it is rather unlikely, that this > > one > > > would make the difference. > > > > > > And why should it be necessary for the user, to know the details of the > > > interpretation of the checking framework? > > > Annotations are kind of interfaces, and as such may be interpreted just > > as > > > any other interface as defining element of a contract, which could be > > > detailed in Javadoc. The same way as Eclipse Link and Hibernate do with > > JPA > > > annotations, while at least hibernate still also works with its own > > > annotations. > > > > > > In fact, @NotNull and its compannions can all be interpreted as > > describing > > > a predicate applying to certain elements of the source tree. So all > what > > is > > > needed, is to match the annotations with the predicates, the framework > > can > > > support. The challenge is in the inference, when these predicates are > > > applied to the source tree. > > > > > > This way, a checker framework may take also advantage of the knowledge > > > hidden in foreign annotations: JPA, Hibernate, Jackson all have > > constructs > > > for indicating nullability and attribute sizes, that might be of use. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gesendet: Montag, 08. Februar 2021 um 00:37 Uhr > > > Von: "Gary Gregory" > > > An: "Commons Developers List" > > > Betreff: Re: [lang] Introduce @NonNull, and @Nullable > > > Isn't the root issue is that all toolchains need to agree on the new > > > annotations? What's that going to be? > > > > > > On Sun, Feb 7, 2021, 17:56 si...@ochsenreither.de < > > si...@ochsenreither.de> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Agree on that – adding a dependency on the JSR-305 jar is a really > > really > > > > bad idea for all the reasons already outlined. I'll add another one: > > > > > > > > At my place, we have actively been removing any usage of these > > > annotations > > > > as you simply can't use these annotations
Re: Re: [lang] Introduce @NonNull, and @Nullable
I do not think we need a wiki since each project should have a Maven generated page like https://commons.apache.org/proper/commons-lang/dependencies.html Gary On Mon, Feb 15, 2021 at 9:32 AM Thomas Schapitz wrote: > Oh, maybe I should pull more often... > As far as I'm concerned, by all means, remove it, although I'm probably > the least one to call for that. > > And since we are at it: Are you aware of any explicit mentioning of a > dependency policy wrt. commons? > Maybe commons should set up some Wiki page, and start actively managing > that? > A convenient place to point to, when discussions about that occur? > > Thomas > > Gesendet: Montag, 15. Februar 2021 um 14:38 Uhr > Von: "Gary Gregory" > An: "Commons Developers List" > Betreff: Re: [lang] Introduce @NonNull, and @Nullable > This is already in Commons Lang master which is why I want to remove it > until there is a long term plan we can agree on. > > Gary > > On Mon, Feb 15, 2021, 07:38 Thomas Schapitz wrote: > > > > > Short Answer: No, but Yes in the long term... > > > > Long Answer: > > Originally, (as of February 1.) Jochen proposed to introduce them into > > commons-lang, with mixed results for the answers. > > So i think they've not yet have made it into master, or do they? > > > > I rummaged through central, and of the modules to be found there beneath > > org/apache/commons there are just two, that actually reference the > > com.google.code.finbugs:jsr305:jar, and both are maven plugins: The > > commons-release-plugin and the commons-weaver-maven-plugin (not yet > > checked, whether they do transitively so). So I guess, this isn't a > > pressing issue for commons in general or lang specifically. > > > > I also take it, that commons always has been cautions not to light > > heartedly introduce dependencies, and foreign dependencies at that, into > > its core modules lang, collections, math etc. > > > > If commons made it this far without jsr305, don't start introducing this > > doomed package now. > > > > > > Gesendet: Samstag, 13. Februar 2021 um 21:13 Uhr > > Von: "Gary Gregory" > > An: "Commons Developers List" > > Betreff: Re: Re: [lang] Introduce @NonNull, and @Nullable > > So... it is my impression now that we should remove these annotations. Is > > that right? > > > > Gary > > > > On Fri, Feb 12, 2021 at 6:28 PM Thomas Schapitz wrote: > > > > > Not exactly, although that also seems, what the author of > > > https://jspecify.dev/_sources/index.rst.txt is thinking. > > > But given, that the last attempt at this went nowhere, and has been > > > abandoned about 10 years ago, I think it is rather unlikely, that this > > one > > > would make the difference. > > > > > > And why should it be necessary for the user, to know the details of the > > > interpretation of the checking framework? > > > Annotations are kind of interfaces, and as such may be interpreted just > > as > > > any other interface as defining element of a contract, which could be > > > detailed in Javadoc. The same way as Eclipse Link and Hibernate do with > > JPA > > > annotations, while at least hibernate still also works with its own > > > annotations. > > > > > > In fact, @NotNull and its compannions can all be interpreted as > > describing > > > a predicate applying to certain elements of the source tree. So all > what > > is > > > needed, is to match the annotations with the predicates, the framework > > can > > > support. The challenge is in the inference, when these predicates are > > > applied to the source tree. > > > > > > This way, a checker framework may take also advantage of the knowledge > > > hidden in foreign annotations: JPA, Hibernate, Jackson all have > > constructs > > > for indicating nullability and attribute sizes, that might be of use. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gesendet: Montag, 08. Februar 2021 um 00:37 Uhr > > > Von: "Gary Gregory" > > > An: "Commons Developers List" > > > Betreff: Re: [lang] Introduce @NonNull, and @Nullable > > > Isn't the root issue is that all toolchains need to agree on the new > > > annotations? What's that going to be? > > > > > > On Sun, Feb 7, 2021, 17:56 si...@ochsenreither.de < > > si...@ochsenreither.de> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Agree on that – adding a dependency on the JSR-305 jar is a really > > really > > > > bad idea for all the reasons already outlined. I'll add another one: > > > > > > > > At my place, we have actively been removing any usage of these > > > annotations > > > > as you simply can't use these annotations and the "real" > > > javax.annotations > > > > package (javax.annotation:javax.annotation-api) under the module > system > > > > (that was introduced in Java 9, for the record). > > > > > > > > People are already working on a replacement library (Jetbrains, > Google, > > > > others), but I forgot the exact URL due to a lack of interest. > > > > (The JSR-305 approach to nullability is wrong, broken, and will never > > > work > > > > reliably from my POV.) > > > > > >
Aw: Re: [lang] Introduce @NonNull, and @Nullable
Oh, maybe I should pull more often... As far as I'm concerned, by all means, remove it, although I'm probably the least one to call for that. And since we are at it: Are you aware of any explicit mentioning of a dependency policy wrt. commons? Maybe commons should set up some Wiki page, and start actively managing that? A convenient place to point to, when discussions about that occur? Thomas Gesendet: Montag, 15. Februar 2021 um 14:38 Uhr Von: "Gary Gregory" An: "Commons Developers List" Betreff: Re: [lang] Introduce @NonNull, and @Nullable This is already in Commons Lang master which is why I want to remove it until there is a long term plan we can agree on. Gary On Mon, Feb 15, 2021, 07:38 Thomas Schapitz wrote: > > Short Answer: No, but Yes in the long term... > > Long Answer: > Originally, (as of February 1.) Jochen proposed to introduce them into > commons-lang, with mixed results for the answers. > So i think they've not yet have made it into master, or do they? > > I rummaged through central, and of the modules to be found there beneath > org/apache/commons there are just two, that actually reference the > com.google.code.finbugs:jsr305:jar, and both are maven plugins: The > commons-release-plugin and the commons-weaver-maven-plugin (not yet > checked, whether they do transitively so). So I guess, this isn't a > pressing issue for commons in general or lang specifically. > > I also take it, that commons always has been cautions not to light > heartedly introduce dependencies, and foreign dependencies at that, into > its core modules lang, collections, math etc. > > If commons made it this far without jsr305, don't start introducing this > doomed package now. > > > Gesendet: Samstag, 13. Februar 2021 um 21:13 Uhr > Von: "Gary Gregory" > An: "Commons Developers List" > Betreff: Re: Re: [lang] Introduce @NonNull, and @Nullable > So... it is my impression now that we should remove these annotations. Is > that right? > > Gary > > On Fri, Feb 12, 2021 at 6:28 PM Thomas Schapitz wrote: > > > Not exactly, although that also seems, what the author of > > https://jspecify.dev/_sources/index.rst.txt is thinking. > > But given, that the last attempt at this went nowhere, and has been > > abandoned about 10 years ago, I think it is rather unlikely, that this > one > > would make the difference. > > > > And why should it be necessary for the user, to know the details of the > > interpretation of the checking framework? > > Annotations are kind of interfaces, and as such may be interpreted just > as > > any other interface as defining element of a contract, which could be > > detailed in Javadoc. The same way as Eclipse Link and Hibernate do with > JPA > > annotations, while at least hibernate still also works with its own > > annotations. > > > > In fact, @NotNull and its compannions can all be interpreted as > describing > > a predicate applying to certain elements of the source tree. So all what > is > > needed, is to match the annotations with the predicates, the framework > can > > support. The challenge is in the inference, when these predicates are > > applied to the source tree. > > > > This way, a checker framework may take also advantage of the knowledge > > hidden in foreign annotations: JPA, Hibernate, Jackson all have > constructs > > for indicating nullability and attribute sizes, that might be of use. > > > > > > > > > > > > Gesendet: Montag, 08. Februar 2021 um 00:37 Uhr > > Von: "Gary Gregory" > > An: "Commons Developers List" > > Betreff: Re: [lang] Introduce @NonNull, and @Nullable > > Isn't the root issue is that all toolchains need to agree on the new > > annotations? What's that going to be? > > > > On Sun, Feb 7, 2021, 17:56 si...@ochsenreither.de < > si...@ochsenreither.de> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Agree on that – adding a dependency on the JSR-305 jar is a really > really > > > bad idea for all the reasons already outlined. I'll add another one: > > > > > > At my place, we have actively been removing any usage of these > > annotations > > > as you simply can't use these annotations and the "real" > > javax.annotations > > > package (javax.annotation:javax.annotation-api) under the module system > > > (that was introduced in Java 9, for the record). > > > > > > People are already working on a replacement library (Jetbrains, Google, > > > others), but I forgot the exact URL due to a lack of interest. > > > (The JSR-305 approach to nullability is wrong, broken, and will never > > work > > > reliably from my POV.) > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > Simon > > > > > > > - > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@commons.apache.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@commons.apache.org > > > > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@commons.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@commons.apache.org > >
Re: [lang] Introduce @NonNull, and @Nullable
This is already in Commons Lang master which is why I want to remove it until there is a long term plan we can agree on. Gary On Mon, Feb 15, 2021, 07:38 Thomas Schapitz wrote: > > Short Answer: No, but Yes in the long term... > > Long Answer: > Originally, (as of February 1.) Jochen proposed to introduce them into > commons-lang, with mixed results for the answers. > So i think they've not yet have made it into master, or do they? > > I rummaged through central, and of the modules to be found there beneath > org/apache/commons there are just two, that actually reference the > com.google.code.finbugs:jsr305:jar, and both are maven plugins: The > commons-release-plugin and the commons-weaver-maven-plugin (not yet > checked, whether they do transitively so). So I guess, this isn't a > pressing issue for commons in general or lang specifically. > > I also take it, that commons always has been cautions not to light > heartedly introduce dependencies, and foreign dependencies at that, into > its core modules lang, collections, math etc. > > If commons made it this far without jsr305, don't start introducing this > doomed package now. > > > Gesendet: Samstag, 13. Februar 2021 um 21:13 Uhr > Von: "Gary Gregory" > An: "Commons Developers List" > Betreff: Re: Re: [lang] Introduce @NonNull, and @Nullable > So... it is my impression now that we should remove these annotations. Is > that right? > > Gary > > On Fri, Feb 12, 2021 at 6:28 PM Thomas Schapitz wrote: > > > Not exactly, although that also seems, what the author of > > https://jspecify.dev/_sources/index.rst.txt is thinking. > > But given, that the last attempt at this went nowhere, and has been > > abandoned about 10 years ago, I think it is rather unlikely, that this > one > > would make the difference. > > > > And why should it be necessary for the user, to know the details of the > > interpretation of the checking framework? > > Annotations are kind of interfaces, and as such may be interpreted just > as > > any other interface as defining element of a contract, which could be > > detailed in Javadoc. The same way as Eclipse Link and Hibernate do with > JPA > > annotations, while at least hibernate still also works with its own > > annotations. > > > > In fact, @NotNull and its compannions can all be interpreted as > describing > > a predicate applying to certain elements of the source tree. So all what > is > > needed, is to match the annotations with the predicates, the framework > can > > support. The challenge is in the inference, when these predicates are > > applied to the source tree. > > > > This way, a checker framework may take also advantage of the knowledge > > hidden in foreign annotations: JPA, Hibernate, Jackson all have > constructs > > for indicating nullability and attribute sizes, that might be of use. > > > > > > > > > > > > Gesendet: Montag, 08. Februar 2021 um 00:37 Uhr > > Von: "Gary Gregory" > > An: "Commons Developers List" > > Betreff: Re: [lang] Introduce @NonNull, and @Nullable > > Isn't the root issue is that all toolchains need to agree on the new > > annotations? What's that going to be? > > > > On Sun, Feb 7, 2021, 17:56 si...@ochsenreither.de < > si...@ochsenreither.de> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Agree on that – adding a dependency on the JSR-305 jar is a really > really > > > bad idea for all the reasons already outlined. I'll add another one: > > > > > > At my place, we have actively been removing any usage of these > > annotations > > > as you simply can't use these annotations and the "real" > > javax.annotations > > > package (javax.annotation:javax.annotation-api) under the module system > > > (that was introduced in Java 9, for the record). > > > > > > People are already working on a replacement library (Jetbrains, Google, > > > others), but I forgot the exact URL due to a lack of interest. > > > (The JSR-305 approach to nullability is wrong, broken, and will never > > work > > > reliably from my POV.) > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > Simon > > > > > > > - > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@commons.apache.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@commons.apache.org > > > > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@commons.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@commons.apache.org > >
Re: [lang] Introduce @NonNull, and @Nullable
Short Answer: No, but Yes in the long term... Long Answer: Originally, (as of February 1.) Jochen proposed to introduce them into commons-lang, with mixed results for the answers. So i think they've not yet have made it into master, or do they? I rummaged through central, and of the modules to be found there beneath org/apache/commons there are just two, that actually reference the com.google.code.finbugs:jsr305:jar, and both are maven plugins: The commons-release-plugin and the commons-weaver-maven-plugin (not yet checked, whether they do transitively so). So I guess, this isn't a pressing issue for commons in general or lang specifically. I also take it, that commons always has been cautions not to light heartedly introduce dependencies, and foreign dependencies at that, into its core modules lang, collections, math etc. If commons made it this far without jsr305, don't start introducing this doomed package now. Gesendet: Samstag, 13. Februar 2021 um 21:13 Uhr Von: "Gary Gregory" An: "Commons Developers List" Betreff: Re: Re: [lang] Introduce @NonNull, and @Nullable So... it is my impression now that we should remove these annotations. Is that right? Gary On Fri, Feb 12, 2021 at 6:28 PM Thomas Schapitz wrote: > Not exactly, although that also seems, what the author of > https://jspecify.dev/_sources/index.rst.txt is thinking. > But given, that the last attempt at this went nowhere, and has been > abandoned about 10 years ago, I think it is rather unlikely, that this one > would make the difference. > > And why should it be necessary for the user, to know the details of the > interpretation of the checking framework? > Annotations are kind of interfaces, and as such may be interpreted just as > any other interface as defining element of a contract, which could be > detailed in Javadoc. The same way as Eclipse Link and Hibernate do with JPA > annotations, while at least hibernate still also works with its own > annotations. > > In fact, @NotNull and its compannions can all be interpreted as describing > a predicate applying to certain elements of the source tree. So all what is > needed, is to match the annotations with the predicates, the framework can > support. The challenge is in the inference, when these predicates are > applied to the source tree. > > This way, a checker framework may take also advantage of the knowledge > hidden in foreign annotations: JPA, Hibernate, Jackson all have constructs > for indicating nullability and attribute sizes, that might be of use. > > > > > > Gesendet: Montag, 08. Februar 2021 um 00:37 Uhr > Von: "Gary Gregory" > An: "Commons Developers List" > Betreff: Re: [lang] Introduce @NonNull, and @Nullable > Isn't the root issue is that all toolchains need to agree on the new > annotations? What's that going to be? > > On Sun, Feb 7, 2021, 17:56 si...@ochsenreither.de > wrote: > > > > > Agree on that – adding a dependency on the JSR-305 jar is a really really > > bad idea for all the reasons already outlined. I'll add another one: > > > > At my place, we have actively been removing any usage of these > annotations > > as you simply can't use these annotations and the "real" > javax.annotations > > package (javax.annotation:javax.annotation-api) under the module system > > (that was introduced in Java 9, for the record). > > > > People are already working on a replacement library (Jetbrains, Google, > > others), but I forgot the exact URL due to a lack of interest. > > (The JSR-305 approach to nullability is wrong, broken, and will never > work > > reliably from my POV.) > > > > Cheers, > > > > Simon > > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@commons.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@commons.apache.org > > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@commons.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@commons.apache.org
