Re: [DRAFT] Email to all PMCs or Committers
On Fri, 2023-08-04 at 15:26 +0200, Jarek Potiuk wrote:
> +1. Looks way better.
Updated draft, for the sake of having it in the archive:
Subject: Mailing list threading improvements
Dear {Committers/members of the Apache PMCs},
TL;DR: We’re updating how auto-generated email from Github will be
threaded on your mailing lists. If you want to keep the old defaults,
details are below.
We’re pleased to let you know that we’re tweaking the way that auto-
generated email from Github will appear on your mailing lists. This
will lead to more human-readable subject lines, and the ability of most
modern mail clients to correctly thread discussions originating on
Github.
Background: Many project mailing lists receive email auto-generated by
Github. The way that the subject lines are crafted leads to messages
from the same topic not being threaded together by most mail clients.
We’re fixing that.
The way that these messages are threaded is defined by a file -
.asf.yml - in your git repositories. We’re changing the way that it
will work by default if you don’t choose settings. If you’re happy for
us to make this change, don’t do anything - the change will happen on
{DATE}.
Details of the current default, as well as the proposed changes, are on
the following page, along with instructions on how to keep your current
settings, if you prefer:
https://community.apache.org/contributors/mailing-lists.html#configuring-the-subject-lines-of-the-emails-being-sent
Please copy dev@community.apache.org on any feedback.
Chris, on behalf of the Comdev PMC
-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
Re: [DRAFT] Email to all PMCs or Committers
+1. Looks way better.
On Fri, Aug 4, 2023 at 3:21 PM Christofer Dutz
wrote:
>
> Hi all and especially Rich …
>
> I love your version … and yes … I really need to focus more on the “what you
> get”
> and less on “why where you’re at sucks” sort of narrative ;-)
>
> Chris
>
>
> Von: Peter Hunsberger
> Datum: Freitag, 4. August 2023 um 15:06
> An: dev@community.apache.org
> Betreff: Re: [DRAFT] Email to all PMCs or Committers
> On Fri, Aug 4, 2023 at 7:45 AM wrote:
>
> > Ok, I propose this alternative approach - more on the "here's how
> > things are getting better" tone than the "Here's how things were awful"
> > tone, and half the length:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Subject: Mailing list threading improvements
> > To: dev@
> >
> > Dear Apache project developers,
> >
> > TL;DR: We’re updating how auto-generated email from Github will be
> > threaded on your mailing lists. If you want to keep the old defaults,
> > details are below.
> >
> > We’re pleased to let you know that we’re tweaking the way that auto-
> > generated email from Github will appear on your mailing lists. This
> > will lead to more human-readable subject lines, and the ability of most
> > modern mail clients to correctly thread discussions originating on
> > Github.
> >
> > Background: Many project lists receive email auto-generated on Github.
> > The way that the subject lines are crafted leads to messages from the
> > same topic not being threaded together by most mail clients. We’re
> > fixing that.
> >
> > The way that these messages are threaded is defined by a file -
> > .asf.yml - in your git repositories. We’re changing the way that it
> > will work by default if you don’t choose settings. The change will
> > happen on {DATE}
> >
> > Details of the current default, as well as the proposed changes, are on
> > this page, along with instructions on how to keep your current
> > settings, if you prefer:
> >
> >
> > https://community.apache.org/contributors/mailing-lists.html#configuring-the-subject-lines-of-the-emails-being-sent
> >
> > Chris, on behalf of the Comdev PMC
> >
>
> +1
>
> This seems concise and would be a welcome change
>
> >
> >
> >
> > On Fri, 2023-08-04 at 07:30 -0400, Rich Bowen wrote:
> > > As discussed offline, I feel like the tone of this messaging is
> > > wrong. Give me a bit to get to my desk and I will propose an
> > > alternate draft.
> > >
> > > Shosholoza,
> > > Rich
> > >
> > >
> > > On Fri, Aug 4, 2023, 04:43 Christofer Dutz
> > > wrote:
> > > > Hi,
> > > >
> > > > Here comes a draft for an email I would like to send out.
> > > >
> > > > Not quite sure which audience we should choose … committers,
> > > > (p)pmcs?
> > > >
> > > > Also, not quite sure about the timeframe? As I know Infra merges
> > > > PRs on Thursdays, I would propose the 17th of August 2023 as date
> > > > for the change to be made. This would give project almost 2 weeks
> > > > to react and adjust their .asf.yml files, if they wish to stay at
> > > > the current defaults.
> > > >
> > > > So, I wasn’t sure, if I should add links to examples, as it would
> > > > be putting the project acting as negative example in an unfortunate
> > > > spotlight and using date ranges in ponymail links has been not
> > > > quite successful in the past.
> > > >
> > > > What do you folks think?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Chris
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Dear {Committers/members of the Apache PMCs},
> > > >
> > > > over the years have we added additional options for discussing
> > > > project matters on a big variety of alternate locations and systems
> > > > besides email lists, such as JIRA and GitHub.
> > > > Especially GitHub has been growing in acceptance, as it generally
> > > > allows participating without requiring yet another login.
> > > >
> > > > GitHub currently allows discussing things using: GitHub Issues,
> > > > GitHub PRs and GitHub Discussions.
> > > > Infra has built tooling, that forwards these discussions to our
> > > > mailing-lists.
> > > >
> > > > Unfortunately, some
Re: [DRAFT] Email to all PMCs or Committers
On Fri, Aug 4, 2023 at 7:45 AM wrote:
> Ok, I propose this alternative approach - more on the "here's how
> things are getting better" tone than the "Here's how things were awful"
> tone, and half the length:
>
>
>
>
> Subject: Mailing list threading improvements
> To: dev@
>
> Dear Apache project developers,
>
> TL;DR: We’re updating how auto-generated email from Github will be
> threaded on your mailing lists. If you want to keep the old defaults,
> details are below.
>
> We’re pleased to let you know that we’re tweaking the way that auto-
> generated email from Github will appear on your mailing lists. This
> will lead to more human-readable subject lines, and the ability of most
> modern mail clients to correctly thread discussions originating on
> Github.
>
> Background: Many project lists receive email auto-generated on Github.
> The way that the subject lines are crafted leads to messages from the
> same topic not being threaded together by most mail clients. We’re
> fixing that.
>
> The way that these messages are threaded is defined by a file -
> .asf.yml - in your git repositories. We’re changing the way that it
> will work by default if you don’t choose settings. The change will
> happen on {DATE}
>
> Details of the current default, as well as the proposed changes, are on
> this page, along with instructions on how to keep your current
> settings, if you prefer:
>
>
> https://community.apache.org/contributors/mailing-lists.html#configuring-the-subject-lines-of-the-emails-being-sent
>
> Chris, on behalf of the Comdev PMC
>
+1
This seems concise and would be a welcome change
>
>
>
> On Fri, 2023-08-04 at 07:30 -0400, Rich Bowen wrote:
> > As discussed offline, I feel like the tone of this messaging is
> > wrong. Give me a bit to get to my desk and I will propose an
> > alternate draft.
> >
> > Shosholoza,
> > Rich
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Aug 4, 2023, 04:43 Christofer Dutz
> > wrote:
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > Here comes a draft for an email I would like to send out.
> > >
> > > Not quite sure which audience we should choose … committers,
> > > (p)pmcs?
> > >
> > > Also, not quite sure about the timeframe? As I know Infra merges
> > > PRs on Thursdays, I would propose the 17th of August 2023 as date
> > > for the change to be made. This would give project almost 2 weeks
> > > to react and adjust their .asf.yml files, if they wish to stay at
> > > the current defaults.
> > >
> > > So, I wasn’t sure, if I should add links to examples, as it would
> > > be putting the project acting as negative example in an unfortunate
> > > spotlight and using date ranges in ponymail links has been not
> > > quite successful in the past.
> > >
> > > What do you folks think?
> > >
> > >
> > > Chris
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > >
> > > Dear {Committers/members of the Apache PMCs},
> > >
> > > over the years have we added additional options for discussing
> > > project matters on a big variety of alternate locations and systems
> > > besides email lists, such as JIRA and GitHub.
> > > Especially GitHub has been growing in acceptance, as it generally
> > > allows participating without requiring yet another login.
> > >
> > > GitHub currently allows discussing things using: GitHub Issues,
> > > GitHub PRs and GitHub Discussions.
> > > Infra has built tooling, that forwards these discussions to our
> > > mailing-lists.
> > >
> > > Unfortunately, some defaults were chosen, which have resulted in
> > > many dev-lists being swamped with emails, for which no email-client
> > > was able to implement any form of threading.
> > > Some projects simply reacted by redirecting these emails to lists,
> > > such as notifications@ or commits@.
> > > Some projects even completely gave up communicating via email lists
> > > and only “come back” for voting.
> > > Even if the requirement “If it didn’t happen on the list, it didn’t
> > > happen” sort of is fulfilled, it no longer fulfills what the core
> > > of this rule was:
> > > To allow someone to asynchronously participate and find out what’s
> > > happening in a project without requiring any form of login and to
> > > have some sort of archive of all discussions about Apache projects
> > > on Apache hardware.
> > >
> > > In Comdev we have been discussing how we could possibly address
> > > this and bring back the usefulness of our mailing-lists.
> > > The tooling Infra provides us with, already allows individual
> > > projects to change the settings of the auto-generated emails and
> > > several projects have already done so, with great success.
> > >
> > > Comdev has therefore proposed to change the default settings for
> > > auto-generated emails sent out for GitHub.
> > > These changes will not change anything for projects hat already
> > > manage how the emails should be formatted in their .asf.yml files,
> > > but it will affect all projects, that didn’t explicitly do that.
> > >
> > > For all projects willing to stay at the current format, we
> > > encourage
Re: [DRAFT] Email to all PMCs or Committers
On Fri, 2023-08-04 at 08:45 -0400, rbo...@rcbowen.com wrote:
> Ok, I propose this alternative approach - more on the "here's how
> things are getting better" tone than the "Here's how things were
> awful"
> tone, and half the length:
Note: Draft lives here: https://hackmd.io/OLN1OC9UTIuk5seu5S8ZcQ - and
I've made a few small corrections/tweaks.
>
>
>
>
> Subject: Mailing list threading improvements
> To: dev@
>
> Dear Apache project developers,
>
> TL;DR: We’re updating how auto-generated email from Github will be
> threaded on your mailing lists. If you want to keep the old defaults,
> details are below.
>
> We’re pleased to let you know that we’re tweaking the way that auto-
> generated email from Github will appear on your mailing lists. This
> will lead to more human-readable subject lines, and the ability of
> most
> modern mail clients to correctly thread discussions originating on
> Github.
>
> Background: Many project lists receive email auto-generated on
> Github.
> The way that the subject lines are crafted leads to messages from the
> same topic not being threaded together by most mail clients. We’re
> fixing that.
>
> The way that these messages are threaded is defined by a file -
> .asf.yml - in your git repositories. We’re changing the way that it
> will work by default if you don’t choose settings. The change will
> happen on {DATE}
>
> Details of the current default, as well as the proposed changes, are
> on
> this page, along with instructions on how to keep your current
> settings, if you prefer:
>
> https://community.apache.org/contributors/mailing-lists.html#configuring-the-subject-lines-of-the-emails-being-sent
>
> Chris, on behalf of the Comdev PMC
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, 2023-08-04 at 07:30 -0400, Rich Bowen wrote:
> > As discussed offline, I feel like the tone of this messaging is
> > wrong. Give me a bit to get to my desk and I will propose an
> > alternate draft.
> >
> > Shosholoza,
> > Rich
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Aug 4, 2023, 04:43 Christofer Dutz
> > wrote:
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > Here comes a draft for an email I would like to send out.
> > >
> > > Not quite sure which audience we should choose … committers,
> > > (p)pmcs?
> > >
> > > Also, not quite sure about the timeframe? As I know Infra merges
> > > PRs on Thursdays, I would propose the 17th of August 2023 as date
> > > for the change to be made. This would give project almost 2 weeks
> > > to react and adjust their .asf.yml files, if they wish to stay at
> > > the current defaults.
> > >
> > > So, I wasn’t sure, if I should add links to examples, as it would
> > > be putting the project acting as negative example in an
> > > unfortunate
> > > spotlight and using date ranges in ponymail links has been not
> > > quite successful in the past.
> > >
> > > What do you folks think?
> > >
> > >
> > > Chris
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > >
> > > Dear {Committers/members of the Apache PMCs},
> > >
> > > over the years have we added additional options for discussing
> > > project matters on a big variety of alternate locations and
> > > systems
> > > besides email lists, such as JIRA and GitHub.
> > > Especially GitHub has been growing in acceptance, as it generally
> > > allows participating without requiring yet another login.
> > >
> > > GitHub currently allows discussing things using: GitHub Issues,
> > > GitHub PRs and GitHub Discussions.
> > > Infra has built tooling, that forwards these discussions to our
> > > mailing-lists.
> > >
> > > Unfortunately, some defaults were chosen, which have resulted in
> > > many dev-lists being swamped with emails, for which no email-
> > > client
> > > was able to implement any form of threading.
> > > Some projects simply reacted by redirecting these emails to
> > > lists,
> > > such as notifications@ or commits@.
> > > Some projects even completely gave up communicating via email
> > > lists
> > > and only “come back” for voting.
> > > Even if the requirement “If it didn’t happen on the list, it
> > > didn’t
> > > happen” sort of is fulfilled, it no longer fulfills what the core
> > > of this rule was:
> > > To allow someone to asynchronously participate and find out
> > > what’s
> > > happening in a project without requiring any form of login and to
> > > have some sort of archive of all discussions about Apache
> > > projects
> > > on Apache hardware.
> > >
> > > In Comdev we have been discussing how we could possibly address
> > > this and bring back the usefulness of our mailing-lists.
> > > The tooling Infra provides us with, already allows individual
> > > projects to change the settings of the auto-generated emails and
> > > several projects have already done so, with great success.
> > >
> > > Comdev has therefore proposed to change the default settings for
> > > auto-generated emails sent out for GitHub.
> > > These changes will not change anything for projects hat already
> > > manage how the emails should be formatted in
Re: [DRAFT] Email to all PMCs or Committers
Ok, I propose this alternative approach - more on the "here's how
things are getting better" tone than the "Here's how things were awful"
tone, and half the length:
Subject: Mailing list threading improvements
To: dev@
Dear Apache project developers,
TL;DR: We’re updating how auto-generated email from Github will be
threaded on your mailing lists. If you want to keep the old defaults,
details are below.
We’re pleased to let you know that we’re tweaking the way that auto-
generated email from Github will appear on your mailing lists. This
will lead to more human-readable subject lines, and the ability of most
modern mail clients to correctly thread discussions originating on
Github.
Background: Many project lists receive email auto-generated on Github.
The way that the subject lines are crafted leads to messages from the
same topic not being threaded together by most mail clients. We’re
fixing that.
The way that these messages are threaded is defined by a file -
.asf.yml - in your git repositories. We’re changing the way that it
will work by default if you don’t choose settings. The change will
happen on {DATE}
Details of the current default, as well as the proposed changes, are on
this page, along with instructions on how to keep your current
settings, if you prefer:
https://community.apache.org/contributors/mailing-lists.html#configuring-the-subject-lines-of-the-emails-being-sent
Chris, on behalf of the Comdev PMC
On Fri, 2023-08-04 at 07:30 -0400, Rich Bowen wrote:
> As discussed offline, I feel like the tone of this messaging is
> wrong. Give me a bit to get to my desk and I will propose an
> alternate draft.
>
> Shosholoza,
> Rich
>
>
> On Fri, Aug 4, 2023, 04:43 Christofer Dutz
> wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > Here comes a draft for an email I would like to send out.
> >
> > Not quite sure which audience we should choose … committers,
> > (p)pmcs?
> >
> > Also, not quite sure about the timeframe? As I know Infra merges
> > PRs on Thursdays, I would propose the 17th of August 2023 as date
> > for the change to be made. This would give project almost 2 weeks
> > to react and adjust their .asf.yml files, if they wish to stay at
> > the current defaults.
> >
> > So, I wasn’t sure, if I should add links to examples, as it would
> > be putting the project acting as negative example in an unfortunate
> > spotlight and using date ranges in ponymail links has been not
> > quite successful in the past.
> >
> > What do you folks think?
> >
> >
> > Chris
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> >
> > Dear {Committers/members of the Apache PMCs},
> >
> > over the years have we added additional options for discussing
> > project matters on a big variety of alternate locations and systems
> > besides email lists, such as JIRA and GitHub.
> > Especially GitHub has been growing in acceptance, as it generally
> > allows participating without requiring yet another login.
> >
> > GitHub currently allows discussing things using: GitHub Issues,
> > GitHub PRs and GitHub Discussions.
> > Infra has built tooling, that forwards these discussions to our
> > mailing-lists.
> >
> > Unfortunately, some defaults were chosen, which have resulted in
> > many dev-lists being swamped with emails, for which no email-client
> > was able to implement any form of threading.
> > Some projects simply reacted by redirecting these emails to lists,
> > such as notifications@ or commits@.
> > Some projects even completely gave up communicating via email lists
> > and only “come back” for voting.
> > Even if the requirement “If it didn’t happen on the list, it didn’t
> > happen” sort of is fulfilled, it no longer fulfills what the core
> > of this rule was:
> > To allow someone to asynchronously participate and find out what’s
> > happening in a project without requiring any form of login and to
> > have some sort of archive of all discussions about Apache projects
> > on Apache hardware.
> >
> > In Comdev we have been discussing how we could possibly address
> > this and bring back the usefulness of our mailing-lists.
> > The tooling Infra provides us with, already allows individual
> > projects to change the settings of the auto-generated emails and
> > several projects have already done so, with great success.
> >
> > Comdev has therefore proposed to change the default settings for
> > auto-generated emails sent out for GitHub.
> > These changes will not change anything for projects hat already
> > manage how the emails should be formatted in their .asf.yml files,
> > but it will affect all projects, that didn’t explicitly do that.
> >
> > For all projects willing to stay at the current format, we
> > encourage to have a look at this page and prepare their “.asf.yml”
> > files accordingly:
> > https://community.apache.org/contributors/mailing-lists.html
> > (This page currently lists the current defaults here
> > https://community.apache.org/contributors/mailing-lists.html#configuring-the-subject-lines-of-t
Re: [DRAFT] Email to all PMCs or Committers
As discussed offline, I feel like the tone of this messaging is wrong. Give
me a bit to get to my desk and I will propose an alternate draft.
Shosholoza,
Rich
On Fri, Aug 4, 2023, 04:43 Christofer Dutz
wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Here comes a draft for an email I would like to send out.
>
> Not quite sure which audience we should choose … committers, (p)pmcs?
>
> Also, not quite sure about the timeframe? As I know Infra merges PRs on
> Thursdays, I would propose the 17th of August 2023 as date for the change
> to be made. This would give project almost 2 weeks to react and adjust
> their .asf.yml files, if they wish to stay at the current defaults.
>
> So, I wasn’t sure, if I should add links to examples, as it would be
> putting the project acting as negative example in an unfortunate spotlight
> and using date ranges in ponymail links has been not quite successful in
> the past.
>
> What do you folks think?
>
>
> Chris
>
>
> --
>
>
> Dear {Committers/members of the Apache PMCs},
>
> over the years have we added additional options for discussing project
> matters on a big variety of alternate locations and systems besides email
> lists, such as JIRA and GitHub.
> Especially GitHub has been growing in acceptance, as it generally allows
> participating without requiring yet another login.
>
> GitHub currently allows discussing things using: GitHub Issues, GitHub PRs
> and GitHub Discussions.
> Infra has built tooling, that forwards these discussions to our
> mailing-lists.
>
> Unfortunately, some defaults were chosen, which have resulted in many
> dev-lists being swamped with emails, for which no email-client was able to
> implement any form of threading.
> Some projects simply reacted by redirecting these emails to lists, such as
> notifications@ or commits@.
> Some projects even completely gave up communicating via email lists and
> only “come back” for voting.
> Even if the requirement “If it didn’t happen on the list, it didn’t
> happen” sort of is fulfilled, it no longer fulfills what the core of this
> rule was:
> To allow someone to asynchronously participate and find out what’s
> happening in a project without requiring any form of login and to have some
> sort of archive of all discussions about Apache projects on Apache hardware.
>
> In Comdev we have been discussing how we could possibly address this and
> bring back the usefulness of our mailing-lists.
> The tooling Infra provides us with, already allows individual projects to
> change the settings of the auto-generated emails and several projects have
> already done so, with great success.
>
> Comdev has therefore proposed to change the default settings for
> auto-generated emails sent out for GitHub.
> These changes will not change anything for projects hat already manage how
> the emails should be formatted in their .asf.yml files, but it will affect
> all projects, that didn’t explicitly do that.
>
> For all projects willing to stay at the current format, we encourage to
> have a look at this page and prepare their “.asf.yml” files accordingly:
> https://community.apache.org/contributors/mailing-lists.html
> (This page currently lists the current defaults here
> https://community.apache.org/contributors/mailing-lists.html#configuring-the-subject-lines-of-the-emails-being-sent
> as well as the proposed changes)
> We will be changing the defaults on {date here}, so you still have some
> time to prepare.
>
>
>
> Chris, on behalf of the Comdev PMC
>
Re: [DRAFT] Email to all PMCs or Committers
On 2023-08-04 11:52, Jarek Potiuk wrote:
Few comments:
* make it shorter
* add TL;DR; explaining in one paragraph what it is about, what effect
it will have on those who receive it
* add - immediately after that - mentioning that while the change is
coming by default to everyone, everyone has a way to go back easily
(and link to a doc explaining how - step-by-step very straightforward,
with an example of .asf.yml to copy
For reference, the default subject templates for issues/PRs would
translate to the following .asf.yaml configuration:
github:
custom_subjects:
close_issue: "[GitHub] [{repository}] {user} closed issue
#{issue_id}: {title}"
close_pr: "[GitHub] [{repository}] {user} closed pull request
#{pr_id}: {title}"
comment_issue: "[GitHub] [{repository}] {user} commented on issue
#{issue_id}: {title}"
comment_pr:"[GitHub] [{repository}] {user} commented on pull
request #{pr_id}: {title}"
diffcomment: "[GitHub] [{repository}] {user} commented on a diff
in pull request #{pr_id}: {title}"
merge_pr: "[GitHub] [{repository}] {user} merged pull request
#{pr_id}: {title}"
new_issue: "[GitHub] [{repository}] {user} opened a new issue,
#{issue_id}: {title}"
new_pr:"[GitHub] [{repository}] {user} opened a new pull
request, #{pr_id}: {title}"
* all the rest - why you are doing it, the context etc. while
interesting and super important for you and necessary to add should be
in a clear section which is marked as "you do not need to read it -
only if you are interested".
All those comments from someone who writes even longer emails than you
so, take it with a grain of salt.
J.
On Fri, Aug 4, 2023 at 11:13 AM Gilles Sadowski wrote:
Hello.
Sorry to be somewhat off-topic but it relates to the message contents...
See inline comment.
Le ven. 4 août 2023 à 10:43, Christofer Dutz
a écrit :
Hi,
Here comes a draft for an email I would like to send out.
Not quite sure which audience we should choose … committers, (p)pmcs?
Also, not quite sure about the timeframe? As I know Infra merges PRs on
Thursdays, I would propose the 17th of August 2023 as date for the change to be
made. This would give project almost 2 weeks to react and adjust their .asf.yml
files, if they wish to stay at the current defaults.
So, I wasn’t sure, if I should add links to examples, as it would be putting
the project acting as negative example in an unfortunate spotlight and using
date ranges in ponymail links has been not quite successful in the past.
What do you folks think?
Chris
--
Dear {Committers/members of the Apache PMCs},
over the years have we added additional options for discussing project matters
on a big variety of alternate locations and systems besides email lists, such
as JIRA and GitHub.
Especially GitHub has been growing in acceptance, as it generally allows
participating without requiring yet another login.
Pointedly, GitHub does require "yet another login".
Without registering with GH, I can only look (i.e. read the comments) but
not participate (i.e. write a comment).
GitHub currently allows discussing things using: GitHub Issues, GitHub PRs and
GitHub Discussions.
Infra has built tooling, that forwards these discussions to our mailing-lists.
Unfortunately, some defaults were chosen, which have resulted in many dev-lists
being swamped with emails, for which no email-client was able to implement any
form of threading.
Some projects simply reacted by redirecting these emails to lists, such as
notifications@ or commits@.
Some projects even completely gave up communicating via email lists and only
“come back” for voting.
Even if the requirement “If it didn’t happen on the list, it didn’t happen”
sort of is fulfilled, it no longer fulfills what the core of this rule was:
To allow someone to asynchronously participate and find out what’s happening in
a project without requiring any form of login and to have some sort of archive
of all discussions about Apache projects on Apache hardware.
Again, going through GH contradicts the "participate [...] without
requiring any form of login [...]".
Regards,
Gilles
In Comdev we have been discussing how we could possibly address this and bring
back the usefulness of our mailing-lists.
The tooling Infra provides us with, already allows individual projects to
change the settings of the auto-generated emails and several projects have
already done so, with great success.
Comdev has therefore proposed to change the default settings for auto-generated
emails sent out for GitHub.
These changes will not change anything for projects hat already manage how the
emails should be formatted in their .asf.yml files, but it will affect all
projects, that didn’t explicitly do that.
For all projects willing to stay at the current format, we encourage to have a
look at this page and prepare their “.asf.yml” files accordingly:
https://community.apache.org/contributor
Re: [DRAFT] Email to all PMCs or Committers
Few comments:
* make it shorter
* add TL;DR; explaining in one paragraph what it is about, what effect
it will have on those who receive it
* add - immediately after that - mentioning that while the change is
coming by default to everyone, everyone has a way to go back easily
(and link to a doc explaining how - step-by-step very straightforward,
with an example of .asf.yml to copy
* all the rest - why you are doing it, the context etc. while
interesting and super important for you and necessary to add should be
in a clear section which is marked as "you do not need to read it -
only if you are interested".
All those comments from someone who writes even longer emails than you
so, take it with a grain of salt.
J.
On Fri, Aug 4, 2023 at 11:13 AM Gilles Sadowski wrote:
>
> Hello.
>
> Sorry to be somewhat off-topic but it relates to the message contents...
> See inline comment.
>
> Le ven. 4 août 2023 à 10:43, Christofer Dutz
> a écrit :
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > Here comes a draft for an email I would like to send out.
> >
> > Not quite sure which audience we should choose … committers, (p)pmcs?
> >
> > Also, not quite sure about the timeframe? As I know Infra merges PRs on
> > Thursdays, I would propose the 17th of August 2023 as date for the change
> > to be made. This would give project almost 2 weeks to react and adjust
> > their .asf.yml files, if they wish to stay at the current defaults.
> >
> > So, I wasn’t sure, if I should add links to examples, as it would be
> > putting the project acting as negative example in an unfortunate spotlight
> > and using date ranges in ponymail links has been not quite successful in
> > the past.
> >
> > What do you folks think?
> >
> >
> > Chris
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> >
> > Dear {Committers/members of the Apache PMCs},
> >
> > over the years have we added additional options for discussing project
> > matters on a big variety of alternate locations and systems besides email
> > lists, such as JIRA and GitHub.
> > Especially GitHub has been growing in acceptance, as it generally allows
> > participating without requiring yet another login.
>
> Pointedly, GitHub does require "yet another login".
> Without registering with GH, I can only look (i.e. read the comments) but
> not participate (i.e. write a comment).
>
> >
> > GitHub currently allows discussing things using: GitHub Issues, GitHub PRs
> > and GitHub Discussions.
> > Infra has built tooling, that forwards these discussions to our
> > mailing-lists.
> >
> > Unfortunately, some defaults were chosen, which have resulted in many
> > dev-lists being swamped with emails, for which no email-client was able to
> > implement any form of threading.
> > Some projects simply reacted by redirecting these emails to lists, such as
> > notifications@ or commits@.
> > Some projects even completely gave up communicating via email lists and
> > only “come back” for voting.
> > Even if the requirement “If it didn’t happen on the list, it didn’t happen”
> > sort of is fulfilled, it no longer fulfills what the core of this rule was:
> > To allow someone to asynchronously participate and find out what’s
> > happening in a project without requiring any form of login and to have some
> > sort of archive of all discussions about Apache projects on Apache hardware.
>
> Again, going through GH contradicts the "participate [...] without
> requiring any form of login [...]".
>
> Regards,
> Gilles
>
> >
> > In Comdev we have been discussing how we could possibly address this and
> > bring back the usefulness of our mailing-lists.
> > The tooling Infra provides us with, already allows individual projects to
> > change the settings of the auto-generated emails and several projects have
> > already done so, with great success.
> >
> > Comdev has therefore proposed to change the default settings for
> > auto-generated emails sent out for GitHub.
> > These changes will not change anything for projects hat already manage how
> > the emails should be formatted in their .asf.yml files, but it will affect
> > all projects, that didn’t explicitly do that.
> >
> > For all projects willing to stay at the current format, we encourage to
> > have a look at this page and prepare their “.asf.yml” files accordingly:
> > https://community.apache.org/contributors/mailing-lists.html
> > (This page currently lists the current defaults here
> > https://community.apache.org/contributors/mailing-lists.html#configuring-the-subject-lines-of-the-emails-being-sent
> > as well as the proposed changes)
> > We will be changing the defaults on {date here}, so you still have some
> > time to prepare.
> >
> >
> >
> > Chris, on behalf of the Comdev PMC
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
>
-
To unsubscribe,
Re: [DRAFT] Email to all PMCs or Committers
Hello.
Sorry to be somewhat off-topic but it relates to the message contents...
See inline comment.
Le ven. 4 août 2023 à 10:43, Christofer Dutz
a écrit :
>
> Hi,
>
> Here comes a draft for an email I would like to send out.
>
> Not quite sure which audience we should choose … committers, (p)pmcs?
>
> Also, not quite sure about the timeframe? As I know Infra merges PRs on
> Thursdays, I would propose the 17th of August 2023 as date for the change to
> be made. This would give project almost 2 weeks to react and adjust their
> .asf.yml files, if they wish to stay at the current defaults.
>
> So, I wasn’t sure, if I should add links to examples, as it would be putting
> the project acting as negative example in an unfortunate spotlight and using
> date ranges in ponymail links has been not quite successful in the past.
>
> What do you folks think?
>
>
> Chris
>
>
> --
>
>
> Dear {Committers/members of the Apache PMCs},
>
> over the years have we added additional options for discussing project
> matters on a big variety of alternate locations and systems besides email
> lists, such as JIRA and GitHub.
> Especially GitHub has been growing in acceptance, as it generally allows
> participating without requiring yet another login.
Pointedly, GitHub does require "yet another login".
Without registering with GH, I can only look (i.e. read the comments) but
not participate (i.e. write a comment).
>
> GitHub currently allows discussing things using: GitHub Issues, GitHub PRs
> and GitHub Discussions.
> Infra has built tooling, that forwards these discussions to our mailing-lists.
>
> Unfortunately, some defaults were chosen, which have resulted in many
> dev-lists being swamped with emails, for which no email-client was able to
> implement any form of threading.
> Some projects simply reacted by redirecting these emails to lists, such as
> notifications@ or commits@.
> Some projects even completely gave up communicating via email lists and only
> “come back” for voting.
> Even if the requirement “If it didn’t happen on the list, it didn’t happen”
> sort of is fulfilled, it no longer fulfills what the core of this rule was:
> To allow someone to asynchronously participate and find out what’s happening
> in a project without requiring any form of login and to have some sort of
> archive of all discussions about Apache projects on Apache hardware.
Again, going through GH contradicts the "participate [...] without
requiring any form of login [...]".
Regards,
Gilles
>
> In Comdev we have been discussing how we could possibly address this and
> bring back the usefulness of our mailing-lists.
> The tooling Infra provides us with, already allows individual projects to
> change the settings of the auto-generated emails and several projects have
> already done so, with great success.
>
> Comdev has therefore proposed to change the default settings for
> auto-generated emails sent out for GitHub.
> These changes will not change anything for projects hat already manage how
> the emails should be formatted in their .asf.yml files, but it will affect
> all projects, that didn’t explicitly do that.
>
> For all projects willing to stay at the current format, we encourage to have
> a look at this page and prepare their “.asf.yml” files accordingly:
> https://community.apache.org/contributors/mailing-lists.html
> (This page currently lists the current defaults here
> https://community.apache.org/contributors/mailing-lists.html#configuring-the-subject-lines-of-the-emails-being-sent
> as well as the proposed changes)
> We will be changing the defaults on {date here}, so you still have some time
> to prepare.
>
>
>
> Chris, on behalf of the Comdev PMC
-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
Re: [DRAFT] Email to all PMCs or Committers
On Fri, 4 Aug 2023 at 09:44, Christofer Dutz wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> Here comes a draft for an email I would like to send out.
>
> Not quite sure which audience we should choose … committers, (p)pmcs?
(P)PMCs, but see below.
> Also, not quite sure about the timeframe? As I know Infra merges PRs on
> Thursdays, I would propose the 17th of August 2023 as date for the change to
> be made. This would give project almost 2 weeks to react and adjust their
> .asf.yml files, if they wish to stay at the current defaults.
>
> So, I wasn’t sure, if I should add links to examples, as it would be putting
> the project acting as negative example in an unfortunate spotlight and using
> date ranges in ponymail links has been not quite successful in the past.
>
> What do you folks think?
-1
I don't think the default should be changed.
AIUI, projects can now change it for themselves.
The email should be about how to do so.
Don't force projects to opt out of a change that they do not want or need.
Instead provide them with the means to change if they wish.
Do this by providing clear documentation on how to do so.
Sebb
>
> Chris
>
>
> --
>
>
> Dear {Committers/members of the Apache PMCs},
>
> over the years have we added additional options for discussing project
> matters on a big variety of alternate locations and systems besides email
> lists, such as JIRA and GitHub.
> Especially GitHub has been growing in acceptance, as it generally allows
> participating without requiring yet another login.
Not strictly true - a GH login is required.
>
> GitHub currently allows discussing things using: GitHub Issues, GitHub PRs
> and GitHub Discussions.
> Infra has built tooling, that forwards these discussions to our mailing-lists.
>
> Unfortunately, some defaults were chosen, which have resulted in many
> dev-lists being swamped with emails, for which no email-client was able to
> implement any form of threading.
> Some projects simply reacted by redirecting these emails to lists, such as
> notifications@ or commits@.
to lists => to new lists
> Some projects even completely gave up communicating via email lists and only
> “come back” for voting.
> Even if the requirement “If it didn’t happen on the list, it didn’t happen”
> sort of is fulfilled, it no longer fulfills what the core of this rule was:
> To allow someone to asynchronously participate and find out what’s happening
> in a project without requiring any form of login and to have some sort of
> archive of all discussions about Apache projects on Apache hardware.
>
> In Comdev we have been discussing how we could possibly address this and
> bring back the usefulness of our mailing-lists.
> The tooling Infra provides us with, already allows individual projects to
> change the settings of the auto-generated emails and several projects have
> already done so, with great success.
>
> Comdev has therefore proposed to change the default settings for
> auto-generated emails sent out for GitHub.
> These changes will not change anything for projects hat already manage how
> the emails should be formatted in their .asf.yml files, but it will affect
> all projects, that didn’t explicitly do that.
hat => that
> For all projects willing to stay at the current format, we encourage to have
> a look at this page and prepare their “.asf.yml” files accordingly:
> https://community.apache.org/contributors/mailing-lists.html
> (This page currently lists the current defaults here
> https://community.apache.org/contributors/mailing-lists.html#configuring-the-subject-lines-of-the-emails-being-sent
> as well as the proposed changes)
> We will be changing the defaults on {date here}, so you still have some time
> to prepare.
>
>
>
> Chris, on behalf of the Comdev PMC
-
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