Re: [jira] [Commented] (RAT-220) JDK version 1.6
Hi, On 11/09/16 23:43, P. Ottlinger wrote: Hi, Am 11.09.2016 um 23:03 schrieb Karl Heinz Marbaise: So that was my suggestion to increase the minimum JDK versions which is needed to run/build RAT/Tentacles/Whiskers to JDK 6...make at least one release and move forward to JDK 7 make another release and move forward to JDK 8...This means you have always a base release on which you can make bug fix (or if really needed backports) releases for the appropriate JDK requirements... +1 for that strategy and retirement of JDK5. Not to talk about JDK 9 next year (which is not very far in the future)... Apart from that Tentacles as well as Whiskers need releases at all... cause I can't see any release on Maven Central of them... Tentacles shows 0.1-SNAPSHOT ? (if the bottom line is related 2012?) ? Whiskers shows 0.1-SNAPSHOT (last updated 2013 ?) For RAT that 0.12 has been released about three months ago, but before that it has taken 2 years for a release ? I think this is the problem not the users... To my mind the problem is much more general: tentacles and whisker were developed mainly by the former project lead (sorry if that's not the correct wording). There does not exist a kind as project lead. The lead is the community no one else. I need to think about Whiskers and Tentacles...may be we can improve the idea here ... After he left the code base was left as-is ... I'm unaware of any real users of the SNAPSHOTs which resulted in the current state of the subprojects. Sure I don't expect having users if nothing is available via Central or nor at least one release...and make the release public..and may be write some kind of blog / articles about it... RAT was mainly in bugfix-mode since other ASF projects requested newer features or created bug tickets in Jira. So this means we have a community here...may be it a little small but there is one... So I hope we are not in bug fix mode...which means we have no new ideas ? We should document the ideas into JIRA ...May be some more general idea how to define licenses (a kind of format to describe them or reuse an existing one? needs some reasearch?) > Therefore I was quite happy to have the gradle plugin contributed. Why is not part of the current development? Who are/is the contributor? We should move forward here...for the gradle plugin as well as maven plugin as well as the code... The project lacks active developers and an overall strategy on what to do and how to reach it - I don't like those words "strategy" simply write the wishes/ideas we have in JIRA and try to drill down into smaller tasks and implement it... why don't we develop a strategy how to reach 1.0.0 for RAT? To be honsted I don't like to write down strategy papers and see later that it will not be reached etc. so it's not worth the effort... We should simply start to move forward to JDK 6 for RAT and see what kind of issues we could fix...This means document the thing we would like to change into JIRA... From my point of view there are some point which are very important: (Ok you can call it a strategy ;-)) 1. Make a release easy 2. Make the publishing of the site easy (good path started) 3. Create a better build structure (parent pom, clean up poms etc.) 4. Change to a semver versioning. (like 0.12.0 / 0.13.0) Make a consistent line like groupId / package names.. 5. Fixing Issues we have in JIRA 6. Make CLI / Plugins / Maven / Gradle better.. 7. Think about new ideas / Improvements ? (Performance?) I'd love to see it with a current JDK and a gradle plugin integrated. @karlheinz: thanks for your input and fresh ideas! Phil Kind regards Karl Heinz Marbaise
Re: [jira] [Commented] (RAT-220) JDK version 1.6
Hi, Am 11.09.2016 um 23:03 schrieb Karl Heinz Marbaise: > So that was my suggestion to increase the minimum JDK versions which is > needed to run/build RAT/Tentacles/Whiskers to JDK 6...make at least one > release and move forward to JDK 7 make another release and move forward > to JDK 8...This means you have always a base release on which you can > make bug fix (or if really needed backports) releases for the > appropriate JDK requirements... +1 for that strategy and retirement of JDK5. > Not to talk about JDK 9 next year (which is not very far in the future)... > > Apart from that Tentacles as well as Whiskers need releases at all... > cause I can't see any release on Maven Central of them... > > Tentacles shows 0.1-SNAPSHOT ? (if the bottom line is related 2012?) ? > Whiskers shows 0.1-SNAPSHOT (last updated 2013 ?) > > For RAT that 0.12 has been released about three months ago, but before > that it has taken 2 years for a release ? I think this is the problem > not the users... To my mind the problem is much more general: tentacles and whisker were developed mainly by the former project lead (sorry if that's not the correct wording). After he left the code base was left as-is ... I'm unaware of any real users of the SNAPSHOTs which resulted in the current state of the subprojects. RAT was mainly in bugfix-mode since other ASF projects requested newer features or created bug tickets in Jira. Therefore I was quite happy to have the gradle plugin contributed. The project lacks active developers and an overall strategy on what to do and how to reach it - why don't we develop a strategy how to reach 1.0.0 for RAT? I'd love to see it with a current JDK and a gradle plugin integrated. @karlheinz: thanks for your input and fresh ideas! Phil
Re: [jira] [Commented] (RAT-220) JDK version 1.6
Hi, On 11/09/16 23:03, Karl Heinz Marbaise wrote: Hi, On 11/09/16 20:59, Javen O'Neal wrote: While increasing the minimum supported version does cut out some users who are running ancient versions of Java, To be honest 1.5 Java is out of date how long? Furthermore no security updates etc. and no enterprise contracts possible anymore...for JDK 5... it also opens the door to better language features. I think there are many things which can be improved...independent of the language features..(for example creating a release easier, make a publishing of the site easier etc. only those which I have seen the last weeks and where I'm trying to improve. I have not yet taken deeper looks into the code etc.)... If the new features are used, it may be easier for potential developers to read the code, contribute, and find bugs that are disguised by the more verbose syntax of Java 1.5 If a developer is not able to read Java Code in 1.5 etc. sorry...but such old code which plunge some developers...but this is a different story... You should consider both RAT developers and users when thinking about an upgrade. That's exactly what I'm doing...cause users require more features shorter release cycles etc. For example at the maven project we have the JDK 6 minimum for plugins and for Maven version 3.3+ JDK 7 That said, Sebb is right that you should not increase the version without significant thought, as it WILL abandon some users. Does some of those PMC's tried to get the download statistics from Maven Central to see how many users we are talking about? So I have taken a look: For rat-tasks it looks like this: http://chart.apis.google.com/chart?cht=lc&chs=800x200&chco=326A9E&chxt=x,y&chtt=Downloads+Over+the+Last+12+Months+For+org.apache.rat:apache-rat-tasks&chxr=1,0,10046&chds=0,10046&chxs=1N*s*&chls=3&chm=o,0066FF,0,-1,10,0&chd=t:10046,7911,7334,8166,7378,7191,7806,7354,6095,5878,5512,4716&chxl=0:|Sep2015|Oct2015|Nov2015|Dec2015|Jan2016|Feb2016|Mar2016|Apr2016|May2016|Jun2016|Jul2016|Aug2016 This is a trend downwards... If you take a look at the apache-rat-plugin: http://chart.apis.google.com/chart?cht=lc&chs=800x200&chco=326A9E&chxt=x,y&chtt=Downloads+Over+the+Last+12+Months+For+org.apache.rat:apache-rat-plugin&chxr=1,0,49322&chds=0,49322&chxs=1N*s*&chls=3&chm=o,0066FF,0,-1,10,0&chd=t:22639,19349,19777,21495,23567,26233,27893,34669,47337,42225,39914,49322&chxl=0:|Sep2015|Oct2015|Nov2015|Dec2015|Jan2016|Feb2016|Mar2016|Apr2016|May2016|Jun2016|Jul2016|Aug2016 Trend is upwards...10 times greater than ant-task ?... Kind regards Karl Heinz RAT 0.12 requires Java 1.5 so it's time to say good by to JDK 1.5... If really someone will find an issue with 0.12 and really needs a bug fix we can simply think about creating a branch and produce a 0.12.1 ? So I don't see any problem with that... Apart from that the whole project has not yet reached 1.0.0 state... If the only problem for being on different versions is a more complicated compatibility statement on your web page, It's not a problem but shows the inconsistency of the project line... A simple statement like RAT, Whiskers and Tentacle use JDK 1.6+ is simple and clear for users... then leave this issue at that. "The Creadur project consists of three modules: RAT, Whiskers, and Tentacles. RAT requires Java 6+. RAT requires Java 1.5 and not 1.6 based on the build Whiskers and Tentacles requires Java 7+." Whiskers as well as Tentacles require 1.6 based on the build... So that was my suggestion to increase the minimum JDK versions which is needed to run/build RAT/Tentacles/Whiskers to JDK 6...make at least one release and move forward to JDK 7 make another release and move forward to JDK 8...This means you have always a base release on which you can make bug fix (or if really needed backports) releases for the appropriate JDK requirements... Not to talk about JDK 9 next year (which is not very far in the future)... Apart from that Tentacles as well as Whiskers need releases at all... cause I can't see any release on Maven Central of them... Tentacles shows 0.1-SNAPSHOT ? (if the bottom line is related 2012?) ? Whiskers shows 0.1-SNAPSHOT (last updated 2013 ?) For RAT that 0.12 has been released about three months ago, but before that it has taken 2 years for a release ? I think this is the problem not the users... On Sep 11, 2016 11:40 AM, "P. Ottlinger" wrote: Hi! I tried bringing up this issue more than once, thus I was very happy that somebody else feels the same. In 0.12 we had a contribution that added a Gradle plugin. It failed due to insufficient dependencies with JDK5. If we had such things that makes it really clear to move forward... Thus there's a need to update if we want to stay relevant. If we are happy with some rather old users with Ant and JD5 - ok, I have my doubts that Ant users user really use JDK 5 apart from that if you look at the Ant project they have decided jump di
Re: [jira] [Commented] (RAT-220) JDK version 1.6
Hi, On 11/09/16 20:59, Javen O'Neal wrote: While increasing the minimum supported version does cut out some users who are running ancient versions of Java, To be honest 1.5 Java is out of date how long? Furthermore no security updates etc. and no enterprise contracts possible anymore...for JDK 5... > it also opens the door to better language features. I think there are many things which can be improved...independent of the language features..(for example creating a release easier, make a publishing of the site easier etc. only those which I have seen the last weeks and where I'm trying to improve. I have not yet taken deeper looks into the code etc.)... > If the new features are used, it may be easier for potential developers to read the code, contribute, and find bugs that are disguised by the more verbose syntax of Java 1.5 If a developer is not able to read Java Code in 1.5 etc. sorry...but such old code which plunge some developers...but this is a different story... You should consider both RAT developers and users when thinking about an upgrade. That's exactly what I'm doing...cause users require more features shorter release cycles etc. For example at the maven project we have the JDK 6 minimum for plugins and for Maven version 3.3+ JDK 7 That said, Sebb is right that you should not increase the version without significant thought, as it WILL abandon some users. Does some of those PMC's tried to get the download statistics from Maven Central to see how many users we are talking about? RAT 0.12 requires Java 1.5 so it's time to say good by to JDK 1.5... If really someone will find an issue with 0.12 and really needs a bug fix we can simply think about creating a branch and produce a 0.12.1 ? So I don't see any problem with that... Apart from that the whole project has not yet reached 1.0.0 state... > If the only problem for being on different versions is a more complicated compatibility statement on your web page, It's not a problem but shows the inconsistency of the project line... A simple statement like RAT, Whiskers and Tentacle use JDK 1.6+ is simple and clear for users... > then leave this issue at that. "The Creadur project consists of three modules: RAT, Whiskers, and Tentacles. RAT requires Java 6+. RAT requires Java 1.5 and not 1.6 based on the build Whiskers and Tentacles requires Java 7+." Whiskers as well as Tentacles require 1.6 based on the build... So that was my suggestion to increase the minimum JDK versions which is needed to run/build RAT/Tentacles/Whiskers to JDK 6...make at least one release and move forward to JDK 7 make another release and move forward to JDK 8...This means you have always a base release on which you can make bug fix (or if really needed backports) releases for the appropriate JDK requirements... Not to talk about JDK 9 next year (which is not very far in the future)... Apart from that Tentacles as well as Whiskers need releases at all... cause I can't see any release on Maven Central of them... Tentacles shows 0.1-SNAPSHOT ? (if the bottom line is related 2012?) ? Whiskers shows 0.1-SNAPSHOT (last updated 2013 ?) For RAT that 0.12 has been released about three months ago, but before that it has taken 2 years for a release ? I think this is the problem not the users... On Sep 11, 2016 11:40 AM, "P. Ottlinger" wrote: Hi! I tried bringing up this issue more than once, thus I was very happy that somebody else feels the same. In 0.12 we had a contribution that added a Gradle plugin. It failed due to insufficient dependencies with JDK5. If we had such things that makes it really clear to move forward... Thus there's a need to update if we want to stay relevant. If we are happy with some rather old users with Ant and JD5 - ok, I have my doubts that Ant users user really use JDK 5 apart from that if you look at the Ant project they have decided jump directly to JDK 8 minimum ...1.9.X has been the last which is JDK 5 compatible... but to my mind we should add Gradle support to stay relevant in the ASF sphere. Which is relevant in other ways as well...apart of the plan to move to Kotlin for Gradle 4.X ? Kind regards Karl Heinz Marbaise Just my 2 ct Phil Am 11.09.2016 um 14:56 schrieb Sebb (JIRA): [ https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/RAT-220?page=com. atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels:comment- tabpanel&focusedCommentId=15481714#comment-15481714 ] Sebb commented on RAT-220: -- +1 We should not change the Java version merely to be consistent with other Creadur projects. There needs to be a clear end-user benefit to requiring the upgrade. JDK version 1.6 --- Key: RAT-220 URL: https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/RAT-220 Project: Apache Rat Issue Type: Improvement Reporter: Karl Heinz Marbaise Assignee: Joche
Re: [jira] [Commented] (RAT-220) JDK version 1.6
While increasing the minimum supported version does cut out some users who are running ancient versions of Java, it also opens the door to better language features. If the new features are used, it may be easier for potential developers to read the code, contribute, and find bugs that are disguised by the more verbose syntax of Java 1.5 You should consider both RAT developers and users when thinking about an upgrade. That said, Sebb is right that you should not increase the version without significant thought, as it WILL abandon some users. If the only problem for being on different versions is a more complicated compatibility statement on your web page, then leave this issue at that. "The Creadur project consists of three modules: RAT, Whiskers, and Tentacles. RAT requires Java 6+. Whiskers and Tentacles requires Java 7+." On Sep 11, 2016 11:40 AM, "P. Ottlinger" wrote: > Hi! > > I tried bringing up this issue more than once, thus I was very happy > that somebody else feels the same. > > In 0.12 we had a contribution that added a Gradle plugin. It failed due > to insufficient dependencies with JDK5. > > Thus there's a need to update if we want to stay relevant. > > If we are happy with some rather old users with Ant and JD5 - ok, > but to my mind we should add Gradle support to stay relevant in the ASF > sphere. > > Just my 2 ct > Phil > > Am 11.09.2016 um 14:56 schrieb Sebb (JIRA): > > > > [ https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/RAT-220?page=com. > atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels:comment- > tabpanel&focusedCommentId=15481714#comment-15481714 ] > > > > Sebb commented on RAT-220: > > -- > > > > +1 > > > > We should not change the Java version merely to be consistent with other > Creadur projects. > > > > There needs to be a clear end-user benefit to requiring the upgrade. > > > >> JDK version 1.6 > >> --- > >> > >> Key: RAT-220 > >> URL: https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/RAT-220 > >> Project: Apache Rat > >> Issue Type: Improvement > >>Reporter: Karl Heinz Marbaise > >>Assignee: Jochen Wiedmann > >> > >> Currently the RAT project defines as Java compatibility 1.5 but > Tentacles defines 1.6 and Whiskers as well 1.6 so it would be a good idea > to go to 1.6 as minimumIf someone needs to work with 1.5 toolchain can > be used. > > > > > > > > -- > > This message was sent by Atlassian JIRA > > (v6.3.4#6332) > > > >
Re: [jira] [Commented] (RAT-220) JDK version 1.6
Hi, Am 11.09.2016 um 20:53 schrieb Jochen Wiedmann: > There is no reason, to retreat the plugin, as long as it becomes a > standalone module. To follow your argumentation: Ant and Maven-module should be standalone as well. I think that's rather hard and makes things even more complicated as they already/still are in the existing RAT codebase. I'd vote for a monolithic RAT and Gradle support. The build failures were due to the low JDK5 language level, there was not gradle plugin when JDK5 was up2date. Phil
Re: [jira] [Commented] (RAT-220) JDK version 1.6
On Sun, Sep 11, 2016 at 8:40 PM, P. Ottlinger wrote: > I tried bringing up this issue more than once, thus I was very happy > that somebody else feels the same. > > In 0.12 we had a contribution that added a Gradle plugin. It failed due > to insufficient dependencies with JDK5. > > Thus there's a need to update if we want to stay relevant. > > If we are happy with some rather old users with Ant and JD5 - ok, > but to my mind we should add Gradle support to stay relevant in the ASF > sphere. I think, the main problem with the Gradle plugin was, that it was integrated into the main build. In other words, as soon as the Gradle plugin was unbuiödable, Rat itself became unbuildable. There is no reason, to retreat the plugin, as long as it becomes a standalone module. Jochen -- The next time you hear: "Don't reinvent the wheel!" http://www.keystonedevelopment.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/evolution-of-the-wheel-300x85.jpg
Re: [jira] [Commented] (RAT-220) JDK version 1.6
Hi! I tried bringing up this issue more than once, thus I was very happy that somebody else feels the same. In 0.12 we had a contribution that added a Gradle plugin. It failed due to insufficient dependencies with JDK5. Thus there's a need to update if we want to stay relevant. If we are happy with some rather old users with Ant and JD5 - ok, but to my mind we should add Gradle support to stay relevant in the ASF sphere. Just my 2 ct Phil Am 11.09.2016 um 14:56 schrieb Sebb (JIRA): > > [ > https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/RAT-220?page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels:comment-tabpanel&focusedCommentId=15481714#comment-15481714 > ] > > Sebb commented on RAT-220: > -- > > +1 > > We should not change the Java version merely to be consistent with other > Creadur projects. > > There needs to be a clear end-user benefit to requiring the upgrade. > >> JDK version 1.6 >> --- >> >> Key: RAT-220 >> URL: https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/RAT-220 >> Project: Apache Rat >> Issue Type: Improvement >>Reporter: Karl Heinz Marbaise >>Assignee: Jochen Wiedmann >> >> Currently the RAT project defines as Java compatibility 1.5 but Tentacles >> defines 1.6 and Whiskers as well 1.6 so it would be a good idea to go to 1.6 >> as minimumIf someone needs to work with 1.5 toolchain can be used. > > > > -- > This message was sent by Atlassian JIRA > (v6.3.4#6332) >
