Re: [suggestion] - OSGI WebConsole
Hi, First: This is the last cross posted message from me. Future communication should and will take place on the Felix list. Please, come to that list and discuss with us here ! Am Donnerstag, den 03.03.2011, 07:40 + schrieb Charles Moulliard: On Wed, Mar 2, 2011 at 11:43 PM, Felix Meschberger fmesc...@adobe.com wrote: Hi, As the original developer of the Web Console I am flattered by this activity ;-) Am Mittwoch, den 02.03.2011, 17:37 + schrieb Charles Moulliard: Hi, As three users of Apache Felix WebConsole project, I contact you to have your opinion regarding to frameworks (JSon, javascript, ...) usage made with Apache Felix WebConsole. The project has been made light to avoid dependencies with external librairies but the way that it is used today lack of structure, complicate the Why lack of structure ? Because by example we fill data (for a table) in different java methods and render it using also different javascripts function. This is really paintful to rebuild the global picture regarding what we see in the html (code source) of the browser with where in the code, the different parts are prepare and assemble. Well, this is just an implementation detail of the plugins coming with the Web Console proper. Nowhere is it prescribed that you have to do it this way. I think Guillaume has clearly described the issues around this. development of screens and decrease development productivity, html code is mixed in javascript, json variables are set everywhere in the code and use in several of javascript functions, no template is used to render html pages, locale is not used by all of us to translate text, That's all not required. The simplest plugin is a Servlet service with two service properties. Nothing fancy, really ;-) The consequence of that is that some developers are very frustrated and would like to make some suggestions about Webconsole. Within Karaf community we already started this discussion and now we would like to share with you some ideas about the future roadmap of Felix WebConsole. I'm sorry you are very frustrated .. at the same time I do not understand why you don't come to the Felix dev or user list to ask questions ? This is a bit frustrating to me. The word frustrated was certainly too excessive and in fact, the discussion that we have started here is a good starting point to collect/gather opinions and improve the existing situation. The Web Console lives in the Apache Felix project. So please, come to use and talk to us. Start the discussion here and with us. We will listen to you. Here are the different scenario possible : (1) Improve the existing usage of the frameworks JSon, OSGI and javascript by defining/providing a template project containing dummy code + guidelines/best practices to develop properly and so improve/increase productivity. This could be done with an archetype Sounds like an excellent idea. (2) Switch the existing architectural model to use frameworks like Apache Wicket or Vaadin where the content is clearly separated from the server side code. Apache Wicket and Vaadin librairies are already osgified so their integration in project like karaf, sling or felix will be done seamless even if we have the overhead to deploy them. But this is also the same for bundles like PAX-Web, ... Sounds like not soo go an idea. There is a reason why we don't use any of these frameworks: We wanted (and still want) to minimize dependencies. Adding such a nice GUI framework to the game makes it more complicated (remember the simple Servlet service mentioned above ?) and heavy weight. Before to take a definitive decision, I propose that we investigate the possibilities offered by Apache Wicket, PAX-Wicket or even Vaadin using a few rendering components and analyse if the approach suggested is worse or can provide enhancements for the existing platform without too much impact. I know very well about the functionality provided by those platforms. But all these platforms come with additional dependencies. And this is where I start placing question marks. Also be reminded that Web Console is currently being used in embedded platforms which don't have place to spare for the developers delight. However, this is not to say, that we should not explore ways on how mechanism like JSP (or generic server side scripting) etc. can be used. No matter which scenario we will decide to adopt, we could also create a project to develop all together the OSGI WebConsole used by our projects and promote it as a new Apache project -- Name suggested Apache Orion. The scope of this project could be extended to include additional management, registration of datasources, What would be the advantage of developing the Web Console in its own TLP ? Is there something missing when living in the
[suggestion] - OSGI WebConsole
Hi, As three users of Apache Felix WebConsole project, I contact you to have your opinion regarding to frameworks (JSon, javascript, ...) usage made with Apache Felix WebConsole. The project has been made light to avoid dependencies with external librairies but the way that it is used today lack of structure, complicate the development of screens and decrease development productivity, html code is mixed in javascript, json variables are set everywhere in the code and use in several of javascript functions, no template is used to render html pages, locale is not used by all of us to translate text, The consequence of that is that some developers are very frustrated and would like to make some suggestions about Webconsole. Within Karaf community we already started this discussion and now we would like to share with you some ideas about the future roadmap of Felix WebConsole. Here are the different scenario possible : (1) Improve the existing usage of the frameworks JSon, OSGI and javascript by defining/providing a template project containing dummy code + guidelines/best practices to develop properly and so improve/increase productivity. This could be done with an archetype (2) Switch the existing architectural model to use frameworks like Apache Wicket or Vaadin where the content is clearly separated from the server side code. Apache Wicket and Vaadin librairies are already osgified so their integration in project like karaf, sling or felix will be done seamless even if we have the overhead to deploy them. But this is also the same for bundles like PAX-Web, ... No matter which scenario we will decide to adopt, we could also create a project to develop all together the OSGI WebConsole used by our projects and promote it as a new Apache project -- Name suggested Apache Orion. The scope of this project could be extended to include additional management, registration of datasources, What do you think my propositions ? Regards, Charles Moulliard Apache Committer Blog : http://cmoulliard.blogspot.com Twitter : http://twitter.com/cmoulliard Linkedin : http://www.linkedin.com/in/charlesmoulliard Skype: cmoulliard
Re: [suggestion] - OSGI WebConsole
Hi, As the original developer of the Web Console I am flattered by this activity ;-) Am Mittwoch, den 02.03.2011, 17:37 + schrieb Charles Moulliard: Hi, As three users of Apache Felix WebConsole project, I contact you to have your opinion regarding to frameworks (JSon, javascript, ...) usage made with Apache Felix WebConsole. The project has been made light to avoid dependencies with external librairies but the way that it is used today lack of structure, complicate the Why lack of structure ? development of screens and decrease development productivity, html code is mixed in javascript, json variables are set everywhere in the code and use in several of javascript functions, no template is used to render html pages, locale is not used by all of us to translate text, That's all not required. The simplest plugin is a Servlet service with two service properties. Nothing fancy, really ;-) The consequence of that is that some developers are very frustrated and would like to make some suggestions about Webconsole. Within Karaf community we already started this discussion and now we would like to share with you some ideas about the future roadmap of Felix WebConsole. I'm sorry you are very frustrated .. at the same time I do not understand why you don't come to the Felix dev or user list to ask questions ? This is a bit frustrating to me. Here are the different scenario possible : (1) Improve the existing usage of the frameworks JSon, OSGI and javascript by defining/providing a template project containing dummy code + guidelines/best practices to develop properly and so improve/increase productivity. This could be done with an archetype Sounds like an excellent idea. (2) Switch the existing architectural model to use frameworks like Apache Wicket or Vaadin where the content is clearly separated from the server side code. Apache Wicket and Vaadin librairies are already osgified so their integration in project like karaf, sling or felix will be done seamless even if we have the overhead to deploy them. But this is also the same for bundles like PAX-Web, ... Sounds like not soo go an idea. There is a reason why we don't use any of these frameworks: We wanted (and still want) to minimize dependencies. Adding such a nice GUI framework to the game makes it more complicated (remember the simple Servlet service mentioned above ?) and heavy weight. However, this is not to say, that we should not explore ways on how mechanism like JSP (or generic server side scripting) etc. can be used. No matter which scenario we will decide to adopt, we could also create a project to develop all together the OSGI WebConsole used by our projects and promote it as a new Apache project -- Name suggested Apache Orion. The scope of this project could be extended to include additional management, registration of datasources, What would be the advantage of developing the Web Console in its own TLP ? Is there something missing when living in the Felix project ? Regards Felix What do you think my propositions ? Regards, Charles Moulliard Apache Committer Blog : http://cmoulliard.blogspot.com Twitter : http://twitter.com/cmoulliard Linkedin : http://www.linkedin.com/in/charlesmoulliard Skype: cmoulliard
Re: [suggestion] - OSGI WebConsole
On Wed, Mar 2, 2011 at 11:43 PM, Felix Meschberger fmesc...@adobe.com wrote: Hi, As the original developer of the Web Console I am flattered by this activity ;-) Am Mittwoch, den 02.03.2011, 17:37 + schrieb Charles Moulliard: Hi, As three users of Apache Felix WebConsole project, I contact you to have your opinion regarding to frameworks (JSon, javascript, ...) usage made with Apache Felix WebConsole. The project has been made light to avoid dependencies with external librairies but the way that it is used today lack of structure, complicate the Why lack of structure ? Because by example we fill data (for a table) in different java methods and render it using also different javascripts function. This is really paintful to rebuild the global picture regarding what we see in the html (code source) of the browser with where in the code, the different parts are prepare and assemble. development of screens and decrease development productivity, html code is mixed in javascript, json variables are set everywhere in the code and use in several of javascript functions, no template is used to render html pages, locale is not used by all of us to translate text, That's all not required. The simplest plugin is a Servlet service with two service properties. Nothing fancy, really ;-) The consequence of that is that some developers are very frustrated and would like to make some suggestions about Webconsole. Within Karaf community we already started this discussion and now we would like to share with you some ideas about the future roadmap of Felix WebConsole. I'm sorry you are very frustrated .. at the same time I do not understand why you don't come to the Felix dev or user list to ask questions ? This is a bit frustrating to me. The word frustrated was certainly too excessive and in fact, the discussion that we have started here is a good starting point to collect/gather opinions and improve the existing situation. Here are the different scenario possible : (1) Improve the existing usage of the frameworks JSon, OSGI and javascript by defining/providing a template project containing dummy code + guidelines/best practices to develop properly and so improve/increase productivity. This could be done with an archetype Sounds like an excellent idea. (2) Switch the existing architectural model to use frameworks like Apache Wicket or Vaadin where the content is clearly separated from the server side code. Apache Wicket and Vaadin librairies are already osgified so their integration in project like karaf, sling or felix will be done seamless even if we have the overhead to deploy them. But this is also the same for bundles like PAX-Web, ... Sounds like not soo go an idea. There is a reason why we don't use any of these frameworks: We wanted (and still want) to minimize dependencies. Adding such a nice GUI framework to the game makes it more complicated (remember the simple Servlet service mentioned above ?) and heavy weight. Before to take a definitive decision, I propose that we investigate the possibilities offered by Apache Wicket, PAX-Wicket or even Vaadin using a few rendering components and analyse if the approach suggested is worse or can provide enhancements for the existing platform without too much impact. However, this is not to say, that we should not explore ways on how mechanism like JSP (or generic server side scripting) etc. can be used. No matter which scenario we will decide to adopt, we could also create a project to develop all together the OSGI WebConsole used by our projects and promote it as a new Apache project -- Name suggested Apache Orion. The scope of this project could be extended to include additional management, registration of datasources, What would be the advantage of developing the Web Console in its own TLP ? Is there something missing when living in the Felix project ? If we add new features/functionalities (like also mentioned by Jean Baptiste D' Onofre), the debate about the location of this project is not insignifiant and becomes relevant like also that this project becomes a TLP. I do not at all defend a point of view to move this Felix sub-project but open the debate Regards Felix What do you think my propositions ? Regards, Charles Moulliard Apache Committer Blog : http://cmoulliard.blogspot.com Twitter : http://twitter.com/cmoulliard Linkedin : http://www.linkedin.com/in/charlesmoulliard Skype: cmoulliard
Re: [suggestion] - OSGI WebConsole
On Thu, Mar 3, 2011 at 08:40, Charles Moulliard cmoulli...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Mar 2, 2011 at 11:43 PM, Felix Meschberger fmesc...@adobe.com wrote: Hi, As the original developer of the Web Console I am flattered by this activity ;-) Am Mittwoch, den 02.03.2011, 17:37 + schrieb Charles Moulliard: Hi, As three users of Apache Felix WebConsole project, I contact you to have your opinion regarding to frameworks (JSon, javascript, ...) usage made with Apache Felix WebConsole. The project has been made light to avoid dependencies with external librairies but the way that it is used today lack of structure, complicate the Why lack of structure ? Because by example we fill data (for a table) in different java methods and render it using also different javascripts function. This is really paintful to rebuild the global picture regarding what we see in the html (code source) of the browser with where in the code, the different parts are prepare and assemble That's a really common thing when using AJAX to render data. I think you missed the point that the servlet render JSON data which could be used by another tool / plugin with a different view. So the data acces / json rendering is done on the server side while the html pages usually use javascript to render the json data into html. That's a clean separation and allows reloading the page without reloading the full html page. . development of screens and decrease development productivity, html code is mixed in javascript, json variables are set everywhere in the code and use in several of javascript functions, no template is used to render html pages, locale is not used by all of us to translate text, That's all not required. The simplest plugin is a Servlet service with two service properties. Nothing fancy, really ;-) The consequence of that is that some developers are very frustrated and would like to make some suggestions about Webconsole. Within Karaf community we already started this discussion and now we would like to share with you some ideas about the future roadmap of Felix WebConsole. I'm sorry you are very frustrated .. at the same time I do not understand why you don't come to the Felix dev or user list to ask questions ? This is a bit frustrating to me. The word frustrated was certainly too excessive and in fact, the discussion that we have started here is a good starting point to collect/gather opinions and improve the existing situation. Here are the different scenario possible : (1) Improve the existing usage of the frameworks JSon, OSGI and javascript by defining/providing a template project containing dummy code + guidelines/best practices to develop properly and so improve/increase productivity. This could be done with an archetype Sounds like an excellent idea. (2) Switch the existing architectural model to use frameworks like Apache Wicket or Vaadin where the content is clearly separated from the server side code. Apache Wicket and Vaadin librairies are already osgified so their integration in project like karaf, sling or felix will be done seamless even if we have the overhead to deploy them. But this is also the same for bundles like PAX-Web, ... Sounds like not soo go an idea. There is a reason why we don't use any of these frameworks: We wanted (and still want) to minimize dependencies. Adding such a nice GUI framework to the game makes it more complicated (remember the simple Servlet service mentioned above ?) and heavy weight. Before to take a definitive decision, I propose that we investigate the possibilities offered by Apache Wicket, PAX-Wicket or even Vaadin using a few rendering components and analyse if the approach suggested is worse or can provide enhancements for the existing platform without too much impact. However, this is not to say, that we should not explore ways on how mechanism like JSP (or generic server side scripting) etc. can be used. No matter which scenario we will decide to adopt, we could also create a project to develop all together the OSGI WebConsole used by our projects and promote it as a new Apache project -- Name suggested Apache Orion. The scope of this project could be extended to include additional management, registration of datasources, What would be the advantage of developing the Web Console in its own TLP ? Is there something missing when living in the Felix project ? If we add new features/functionalities (like also mentioned by Jean Baptiste D' Onofre), the debate about the location of this project is not insignifiant and becomes relevant like also that this project becomes a TLP. I do not at all defend a point of view to move this Felix sub-project but open the debate Regards Felix What do you think my propositions ? Regards, Charles Moulliard Apache Committer Blog : http://cmoulliard.blogspot.com Twitter : http://twitter.com/cmoulliard Linkedin :
