Re: 2nd generation skinning - view and leather
On Wed, 2005-04-06 at 09:31 +0200, Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote: > Thorsten Scherler wrote: > ... > > A nugget is a *BusinessHelper* that access one *BusinessService*. Which > > then will provide data for the *PresentationModel*. > > > > WDYT? > > I have not read all the thread, but in general terms, it seems that the > direction is the right one. :-) > :) Cheers that you took the time to have a look. I really value your feedback. Thx Nicola! salu2 -- thorsten "Together we stand, divided we fall!" Hey you (Pink Floyd)
Re: 2nd generation skinning - view and leather
Thorsten Scherler wrote: If you change some captions of the http://corej2eepatterns.com/Patterns2ndEd/images/DVMainClass.gif diagram (compare while reading) then you will understand how the forrest:view concept (should) work(s): - The *JSP* is now 'forrest:view' in the view. - The *BusinessHelper* are not yet really implemented but that are 'forrest:nuggets'. - *ViewHelper* - right now the leather plugin contains this helper in form of 'forrest:templates'. - *BusinessService* that are our input plugins - *PresentationModel* that are output plugins What I said above about nuggets/models is not right. I said "nuggets as result of models". ...but it should be "models as result from nuggets". A nugget is a *BusinessHelper* that access one *BusinessService*. Which then will provide data for the *PresentationModel*. WDYT? maybe we need to change the name convention to make easier for people to understand. cheers, cheche PS. I had 417 messages from forrest-dev waiting for me this morning. I have 8 left
Re: 2nd generation skinning - view and leather
Thorsten Scherler wrote: ... A nugget is a *BusinessHelper* that access one *BusinessService*. Which then will provide data for the *PresentationModel*. WDYT? I have not read all the thread, but in general terms, it seems that the direction is the right one. :-) -- Nicola Ken Barozzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] - verba volant, scripta manent - (discussions get forgotten, just code remains) -
Re: 2nd generation skinning - view and leather
On Tue, 2005-04-05 at 21:49 +1000, David Crossley wrote: > Thorsten Scherler wrote: > > Ross Gardler wrote: > > > Thorsten Scherler wrote: > > > > > > > If somebody have some spare time and want to help us with the "2nd > > > > generation skinning" you can: > > > > > > I will certainly be helping out, but not until 0.7 is released. Once > > > that is done this is right at the top of my ToDo list. > > > > Dude, no hurries. > > > > You know more or less know what I am trying to do. Now I need more > > devs/user and committer (junior/senior) looking in the stuff and give > > me/us feedback. > > Yes, calling all people on the dev list, not just the committers. > After 0.7 I will ask as well for feedback on the user list directly. For now it is only for devs because they are the most likely to use trunk. ;-) > > I think it would be a good idea to plan the view/leather as default > > skinning mechanism for 0.8. That would makes it possible to develop the > > skinning engine for 0.9 and have a stable version on our 1.0. :) > > Actually, we might need to go 0.8 0.9 0.10 0.11 1.0 > Release often. > I had the same thought a while ago when we were talking about the 0.7 release that we will need 0.1x as well. +1 > > ...but for that I need some eyes on the code and NOT ONLY yours and > > mine!!! Actually I wish especially that Nicola would have a look and > > play devils advocate. ;-) > > > > David had a look on it this morning (I am still waiting for things you > > do [not] like). ;-) > > Sure, i will try again soon. > :) Cheers > > Sorry for being pain in the a***, but I need some enhancement suggestion > > because I am relative happy with the concept but not really with my > > implementation (it is still proof of concept). ;-) > > As NKB said, just get on with it, we can always change later. > Is the plugin marked with its status in some way, so that > people don't rely on it when it goes out with the 0.7 release? > What do you mean with "rely on it". The contracts and the interface calling the contracts are quite stable. Ok, the plugins are 0.1 but I will use them to create my personal website as soon as I implemented all contracts (and find some time). I have not done an ant deploy and I will do it earliest after the release. The user has to locally deploy both plugin before (s)he can use it (dev character). That they go into 0.7 is a nice way to deliver a preview for the next new feature for 0.8. :) > --David > > Talking about complexity, I was teaching my students the MVC pattern and > > must admit that I see our nuggets as result of models. This models > > depend on the document specific meta data (forrest:properties). They > > deliver our intermediate format. > > > > Now the view/leather plugins are a mix of controller and view in my eyes > > that is the reason (I guess) Ross et. al. having problems to understand > > me because I am mixing things in the code and do not have a clear > > separation. > > > > ...and that is the reason why I need feedback. ;-) Ok, I found out that the view I am implementing right now follows the dispatcher view pattern. http://corej2eepatterns.com/Patterns2ndEd/DispatcherView.htm If you change some captions of the http://corej2eepatterns.com/Patterns2ndEd/images/DVMainClass.gif diagram (compare while reading) then you will understand how the forrest:view concept (should) work(s): - The *JSP* is now 'forrest:view' in the view. - The *BusinessHelper* are not yet really implemented but that are 'forrest:nuggets'. - *ViewHelper* - right now the leather plugin contains this helper in form of 'forrest:templates'. - *BusinessService* that are our input plugins - *PresentationModel* that are output plugins What I said above about nuggets/models is not right. I said "nuggets as result of models". ...but it should be "models as result from nuggets". A nugget is a *BusinessHelper* that access one *BusinessService*. Which then will provide data for the *PresentationModel*. WDYT? -- thorsten "Together we stand, divided we fall!" Hey you (Pink Floyd)
Re: 2nd generation skinning - view and leather
David Crossley wrote: Thorsten Scherler wrote: Ross Gardler wrote: Thorsten Scherler wrote: ... Sorry for being pain in the a***, but I need some enhancement suggestion because I am relative happy with the concept but not really with my implementation (it is still proof of concept). ;-) As NKB said, just get on with it, we can always change later. Is the plugin marked with its status in some way, so that people don't rely on it when it goes out with the 0.7 release? We have plugin version numbers in the plugins.xml. I'd suggest that we follow the same version numbering as core, i.e. 0.1-dev 0.1 0.2-dev 0.2 I'll make the index page for the plugins put all the ones with a "*.*-*" version number in a separate section from those with a "*.*" version number, I'll also put a nice big Warning note at the start of the section. Ross
Re: 2nd generation skinning - view and leather
Thorsten Scherler wrote:
> Ross Gardler wrote:
> > Thorsten Scherler wrote:
> >
> > > If somebody have some spare time and want to help us with the "2nd
> > > generation skinning" you can:
> >
> > I will certainly be helping out, but not until 0.7 is released. Once
> > that is done this is right at the top of my ToDo list.
>
> Dude, no hurries.
>
> You know more or less know what I am trying to do. Now I need more
> devs/user and committer (junior/senior) looking in the stuff and give
> me/us feedback.
Yes, calling all people on the dev list, not just the committers.
> I think it would be a good idea to plan the view/leather as default
> skinning mechanism for 0.8. That would makes it possible to develop the
> skinning engine for 0.9 and have a stable version on our 1.0. :)
Actually, we might need to go 0.8 0.9 0.10 0.11 1.0
Release often.
> ...but for that I need some eyes on the code and NOT ONLY yours and
> mine!!! Actually I wish especially that Nicola would have a look and
> play devils advocate. ;-)
>
> David had a look on it this morning (I am still waiting for things you
> do [not] like). ;-)
Sure, i will try again soon.
> Sorry for being pain in the a***, but I need some enhancement suggestion
> because I am relative happy with the concept but not really with my
> implementation (it is still proof of concept). ;-)
As NKB said, just get on with it, we can always change later.
Is the plugin marked with its status in some way, so that
people don't rely on it when it goes out with the 0.7 release?
--David
> One important thing IMO is to officially define an interface for skins
> and views. Leather has it (e.g.
> cocoon://get.contract.{contract-name}.{format}) but as well contains the
> implementations. I reckon the given example match would be better of in
> the view plugin which define the interface.
>
> New skins would need only to provide new implementations of contracts
> and not define the interface again. That will make it necessary to
> change some matches but actually I only have not implemented it yet to
> not deciding the future of skins all by myself and bringing more
> complexity to the things I am doing.
>
> Talking about complexity, I was teaching my students the MVC pattern and
> must admit that I see our nuggets as result of models. This models
> depend on the document specific meta data (forrest:properties). They
> deliver our intermediate format.
>
> Now the view/leather plugins are a mix of controller and view in my eyes
> that is the reason (I guess) Ross et. al. having problems to understand
> me because I am mixing things in the code and do not have a clear
> separation.
>
> ...and that is the reason why I need feedback. ;-)
>
> TIA
>
> salu2
> --
> thorsten
>
> "Together we stand, divided we fall!"
> Hey you (Pink Floyd)
Re: 2nd generation skinning - view and leather
On Tue, 2005-04-05 at 09:41 +0200, Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote: > David Crossley wrote: > > Ross Gardler wrote: > ... > >>I noticed a Blog from Nicola recently saying he has stopped getting > >>involved with too many planning discussions as he has found himself too > >>distracted. He also mentioned he unsubscribed from lots of lists. I hope > >>this wasn't one of them. > > Still here, it's the one I remained on :-) > > >>Nicola, being Nicola, if he is here he'll have > >>filters to pick, out emails with his name in, so if we mention Nicola a > >>few times, maybe by his alternative moniker of Nicola Ken, he might get > >>flagged by his filter systems. > > ROTFL!!! :- > > >>Nicola Ken, we need your input (you don't need to volunteer for anything > >>or code anything - and we'll be happy to give you a catch-up mail ;-) > > Suggestion: let's use it for some time, then we can all comment on it > better. Documentation on it doesn't harm in any case. > > > I too hope that works, but don't rely on anyone, > > not saying that Nicola Ken isn't. > > Well said. I will surely check it out when I will have time, but don't > count on it. > > I may or may not help make it better, but if it scratches an itch, it's > surely useful, so don't be afraid to experiment and try things. > :) Nice to hear from you. Ok, I will just go ahead and develop what I think will solve the problems. salu2 -- thorsten "Together we stand, divided we fall!" Hey you (Pink Floyd)
Re: 2nd generation skinning - view and leather
Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote: David Crossley wrote: Ross Gardler wrote: ... I noticed a Blog from Nicola recently saying he has stopped getting involved with too many planning discussions as he has found himself too distracted. He also mentioned he unsubscribed from lots of lists. I hope this wasn't one of them. Still here, it's the one I remained on :-) Cool. Now I've satisfied myself I'll leave you in peace ;-) Ross
Re: 2nd generation skinning - view and leather
David Crossley wrote: Ross Gardler wrote: ... I noticed a Blog from Nicola recently saying he has stopped getting involved with too many planning discussions as he has found himself too distracted. He also mentioned he unsubscribed from lots of lists. I hope this wasn't one of them. Still here, it's the one I remained on :-) Nicola, being Nicola, if he is here he'll have filters to pick, out emails with his name in, so if we mention Nicola a few times, maybe by his alternative moniker of Nicola Ken, he might get flagged by his filter systems. ROTFL!!! :- Nicola Ken, we need your input (you don't need to volunteer for anything or code anything - and we'll be happy to give you a catch-up mail ;-) Suggestion: let's use it for some time, then we can all comment on it better. Documentation on it doesn't harm in any case. I too hope that works, but don't rely on anyone, not saying that Nicola Ken isn't. Well said. I will surely check it out when I will have time, but don't count on it. I may or may not help make it better, but if it scratches an itch, it's surely useful, so don't be afraid to experiment and try things. -- Nicola Ken Barozzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] - verba volant, scripta manent - (discussions get forgotten, just code remains) -
Re: 2nd generation skinning - view and leather
Ross Gardler wrote: > Thorsten Scherler wrote: > >Ross Gardler wrote: > > > >>Thorsten Scherler wrote: > >> > >>>If somebody have some spare time and want to help us with the "2nd > >>>generation skinning" you can: > >> > >>I will certainly be helping out, but not until 0.7 is released. Once > >>that is done this is right at the top of my ToDo list. Yep, getting 0.7 out is my priority too. I am trying to resist the urge to look at new stuff and instead consolidate. > >Dude, no hurries. > > > >You know more or less know what I am trying to do. Now I need more > >devs/user and committer (junior/senior) looking in the stuff and give > >me/us feedback. > > > >I think it would be a good idea to plan the view/leather as default > >skinning mechanism for 0.8. That would makes it possible to develop the > >skinning engine for 0.9 and have a stable version on our 1.0. :) > > I'd be +1 for this, especially since you have stated that your goal is > to make the new system use an XHTML internal format, which is already a > 0.8 deliverable. > > >...but for that I need some eyes on the code and NOT ONLY yours and > >mine!!! Actually I wish especially that Nicola would have a look and > >play devils advocate. ;-) > > I noticed a Blog from Nicola recently saying he has stopped getting > involved with too many planning discussions as he has found himself too > distracted. He also mentioned he unsubscribed from lots of lists. I hope > this wasn't one of them. Nicola, being Nicola, if he is here he'll have > filters to pick, out emails with his name in, so if we mention Nicola a > few times, maybe by his alternative moniker of Nicola Ken, he might get > flagged by his filter systems. > > Nicola Ken, we need your input (you don't need to volunteer for anything > or code anything - and we'll be happy to give you a catch-up mail ;-) > > OK, if that doesn't work - then he's gone for a while (I'm resisting > sending a personal mail...) I too hope that works, but don't rely on anyone, not saying that Nicola Ken isn't. --David
Re: 2nd generation skinning - view and leather
Thorsten Scherler wrote: On Mon, 2005-04-04 at 20:42 +0100, Ross Gardler wrote: Thorsten Scherler wrote: If somebody have some spare time and want to help us with the "2nd generation skinning" you can: I will certainly be helping out, but not until 0.7 is released. Once that is done this is right at the top of my ToDo list. Dude, no hurries. You know more or less know what I am trying to do. Now I need more devs/user and committer (junior/senior) looking in the stuff and give me/us feedback. I think it would be a good idea to plan the view/leather as default skinning mechanism for 0.8. That would makes it possible to develop the skinning engine for 0.9 and have a stable version on our 1.0. :) I'd be +1 for this, especially since you have stated that your goal is to make the new system use an XHTML internal format, which is already a 0.8 deliverable. ...but for that I need some eyes on the code and NOT ONLY yours and mine!!! Actually I wish especially that Nicola would have a look and play devils advocate. ;-) I noticed a Blog from Nicola recently saying he has stopped getting involved with too many planning discussions as he has found himself too distracted. He also mentioned he unsubscribed from lots of lists. I hope this wasn't one of them. Nicola, being Nicola, if he is here he'll have filters to pick, out emails with his name in, so if we mention Nicola a few times, maybe by his alternative moniker of Nicola Ken, he might get flagged by his filter systems. Nicola Ken, we need your input (you don't need to volunteer for anything or code anything - and we'll be happy to give you a catch-up mail ;-) OK, if that doesn't work - then he's gone for a while (I'm resisting sending a personal mail...) Ross
Re: 2nd generation skinning - view and leather
On Mon, 2005-04-04 at 20:42 +0100, Ross Gardler wrote:
> Thorsten Scherler wrote:
>
> > If somebody have some spare time and want to help us with the "2nd
> > generation skinning" you can:
>
> I will certainly be helping out, but not until 0.7 is released. Once
> that is done this is right at the top of my ToDo list.
>
Dude, no hurries.
You know more or less know what I am trying to do. Now I need more
devs/user and committer (junior/senior) looking in the stuff and give
me/us feedback.
I think it would be a good idea to plan the view/leather as default
skinning mechanism for 0.8. That would makes it possible to develop the
skinning engine for 0.9 and have a stable version on our 1.0. :)
...but for that I need some eyes on the code and NOT ONLY yours and
mine!!! Actually I wish especially that Nicola would have a look and
play devils advocate. ;-)
David had a look on it this morning (I am still waiting for things you
do [not] like). ;-)
Sorry for being pain in the a***, but I need some enhancement suggestion
because I am relative happy with the concept but not really with my
implementation (it is still proof of concept). ;-)
One important thing IMO is to officially define an interface for skins
and views. Leather has it (e.g.
cocoon://get.contract.{contract-name}.{format}) but as well contains the
implementations. I reckon the given example match would be better of in
the view plugin which define the interface.
New skins would need only to provide new implementations of contracts
and not define the interface again. That will make it necessary to
change some matches but actually I only have not implemented it yet to
not deciding the future of skins all by myself and bringing more
complexity to the things I am doing.
Talking about complexity, I was teaching my students the MVC pattern and
must admit that I see our nuggets as result of models. This models
depend on the document specific meta data (forrest:properties). They
deliver our intermediate format.
Now the view/leather plugins are a mix of controller and view in my eyes
that is the reason (I guess) Ross et. al. having problems to understand
me because I am mixing things in the code and do not have a clear
separation.
...and that is the reason why I need feedback. ;-)
TIA
salu2
--
thorsten
"Together we stand, divided we fall!"
Hey you (Pink Floyd)
Re: 2nd generation skinning - view and leather
Thorsten Scherler wrote: If somebody have some spare time and want to help us with the "2nd generation skinning" you can: I will certainly be helping out, but not until 0.7 is released. Once that is done this is right at the top of my ToDo list. Ross
2nd generation skinning - view and leather
Hello devs, I splitted views into view and leather. view Is an internal plugin which prepares the presentation stage by calling all needed content and add it to the pipeline. Right now we are hooking in the last stage (site2xhtml) of the core skinit pipes. leather Is an output plugin which provides the contract implementations requested by the view. This contracts have been extracted from the site2xhtml.xsl from leather-dev. Trying to say that the contracts are xsl-templates. Everything seems to work the way I expected. Now I have to finish all contracts from leather/pelt (leather), move all skin core pipes that are requesting content to the (view) and document everything very well. ;-) If somebody have some spare time and want to help us with the "2nd generation skinning" you can: - help implementing the missing contracts from pelt/leather into forrest:templates - provide css enhancement for the leather plugin skin - look into the skin core pipes and move them over to the view plugin - write documentation salu2 -- thorsten "Together we stand, divided we fall!" Hey you (Pink Floyd)
