Re: The mod_python wiki has materialized!
solo turn wrote .. why would you use jira/confluence, if there is edgewall trac and moinmoin? these two would benefit from mod_python, while jira/confluence has nothing to do with it. -solo JIRA is the official bug/issue tracking system used by the Apache software foundation and what is already used by mod_python. It is much better than Trac for tracking and managing issues. The web address for the current JIRA site for mod_python is: http://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/MODPYTHON The ASF provides both MoinMoin and Confluence wiki sites for the use of ASF projects. The important distinction is that the MoinMoin site is open access with modifications being able to be made by anyone. This is fine for public contributions to FAQs or sample code, but is no good for any official mod_python documentation. The issue is that the policy of the ASF is that any official documentation which forms a part of the release of a package must only be modifiable by individuals who have provided to the ASF a signed contributor licence agreement. Because the MoinMoin wikis run by the ASF are open access, then this cannot be policed easily. The Confluence wikis on the other hand have a better permissions regime in place which means that changes can be restricted to just those who have the rights to modify the documentation. Confluence is also much better in other respects for managing the official mod_python documentation. One reason is that it has builtin the ability to export individual as well as complete sets of pages in the wiki as HTML or PDF. This makes it easy for us to generate the HTML documentation needed to be placed on the mod_python web site and also with the mod_python source code. Performing such an export with MoinMoin is not so simple and requires third party plugins which are as far as I know not part of the ASF MoinMoin wiki installations. So JIRA and Confluence have everything to do with it, because they are tools already used by the ASF and are also better products than Trac and MoinMoin as well for what the ASF does, whereby the need to manage many projects and not just one, and with strict access requirements. Graham On 10/12/06, Graham Dumpleton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Its late here now, so time for me to sleep. You being on the PMC might also carry more weight in getting the Confluence wiki space setup. If we follow suggested convention, should be called MODPYTHON to match JIRA tag. You being on the PMC means you can probably be given admin rights over the wiki space. I have created a user called grahamd, so perhaps you can make the request and ask for me to be added, or get the rights so you can give me the write privileges. They should have it record that I have signed the required agreement. Might be about time for me to finally accept the PMC invite. ;-) This is actually good timing finding this, as have been trying to get work interested in getting JIRA/Confluence for our own stuff, so if can show them how it works will be good. Till tomorrow ... Graham On 12/10/2006, at 11:04 PM, Jim Gallacher wrote: +1 Sounds like a good plan. Jim Graham Dumpleton wrote: Doing some digging into the Confluence wiki site, it seems we may be better off getting a wiki space created in there for mod_python which would be specifically for developing the official documentation. This could have restricted write access for core developers. That wiki space can then be exported as HTML/PDF to get a snapshot for inclusion in the release. Comments could be allowed for general Confluence users, but not actual page edits. The comments can be left out of any export. The comments would be as triggers for us to make amendments to the documentation. The MoinMoin site could be kept for general community contributions. Ie., the FAQ, examples of handlers, links to other resources etc etc. Graham On 12/10/2006, at 10:29 PM, Jim Gallacher wrote: Graham Dumpleton wrote: Anyone had any thoughts on how we are going to use the wiki? Sections 4, 5 and 6 (API, Apache Configuration Directives and Standard Handlers) of the current docs stay with in the source distribution. Everything else would be a candidate for the wiki. (We should likely decide which should go in the wiki vs the modpython.org website vs the httpd.apache.org/modules/mod_python website). In no particular order: News Roadmap Installation help for various OS platforms FAQ Tutorials Examples Security considerations Troubleshooting applications Mailing list information Developer information Bug reporting information Jim From prior comments it looks like we can't use it for the mod_python documentation if we intend to then ship a snapshot of the documentation with a release. I am not sure we are precluded from still using it for the documentation, it just means
Re: The mod_python wiki has materialized!
Its late here now, so time for me to sleep. You being on the PMC might also carry more weight in getting the Confluence wiki space setup. If we follow suggested convention, should be called MODPYTHON to match JIRA tag. You being on the PMC means you can probably be given admin rights over the wiki space. I have created a user called grahamd, so perhaps you can make the request and ask for me to be added, or get the rights so you can give me the write privileges. They should have it record that I have signed the required agreement. Might be about time for me to finally accept the PMC invite. ;-) This is actually good timing finding this, as have been trying to get work interested in getting JIRA/Confluence for our own stuff, so if can show them how it works will be good. Till tomorrow ... Graham On 12/10/2006, at 11:04 PM, Jim Gallacher wrote: +1 Sounds like a good plan. Jim Graham Dumpleton wrote: Doing some digging into the Confluence wiki site, it seems we may be better off getting a wiki space created in there for mod_python which would be specifically for developing the official documentation. This could have restricted write access for core developers. That wiki space can then be exported as HTML/PDF to get a snapshot for inclusion in the release. Comments could be allowed for general Confluence users, but not actual page edits. The comments can be left out of any export. The comments would be as triggers for us to make amendments to the documentation. The MoinMoin site could be kept for general community contributions. Ie., the FAQ, examples of handlers, links to other resources etc etc. Graham On 12/10/2006, at 10:29 PM, Jim Gallacher wrote: Graham Dumpleton wrote: Anyone had any thoughts on how we are going to use the wiki? Sections 4, 5 and 6 (API, Apache Configuration Directives and Standard Handlers) of the current docs stay with in the source distribution. Everything else would be a candidate for the wiki. (We should likely decide which should go in the wiki vs the modpython.org website vs the httpd.apache.org/modules/mod_python website). In no particular order: News Roadmap Installation help for various OS platforms FAQ Tutorials Examples Security considerations Troubleshooting applications Mailing list information Developer information Bug reporting information Jim From prior comments it looks like we can't use it for the mod_python documentation if we intend to then ship a snapshot of the documentation with a release. I am not sure we are precluded from still using it for the documentation, it just means that we could not also include it in the release. To my mind this is possibly okay, as once the documentation was shifted to the wiki, wasn't thinking that a snapshot would be included with the release anyway. It is just a pity that the ASF doesn't use Confluence (the companion wiki product for JIRA), as the fine grained security mechanisms in that could have been used to protect the core documentation and prevent modification by people who shouldn't. I know that MoinMoin has fine grained access permissions as well, but from my experience it is a bit harder to configure as it requires changes to a file based configuration file to setup the default policy. Requiring this means intervention of the ASF infrastructure people and they are possibly too busy as it is. How individual page access and groups are setup with MoinMoin is also a fiddly process. At lease with Confluence such things are all controllable through the web interface and somewhat easier to manage. That MoinMoin is fiddly to setup is possibly why they recommend a separate wiki space for the protected documentation as then the default policy can be just to let the selected users edit the pages and one doesn't have to worry about manipulating access on individual pages. Graham On 13/09/2006, at 9:31 AM, Max Bowsher wrote: Graham Dumpleton wrote: On 13/09/2006, at 8:45 AM, Jim Gallacher wrote: Woot Woot Woot! We have our wiki! http://wiki.apache.org/mod_python/ Now comes the hard part... what the heck are we going to do with it? :) Ahhh, more work. :-( Obviously the FAQ stuff can go over there, but I would really like to see the main LaTeX documentation converted and hosted there so it can be updated more easily. Might have to ask Grisha's opinion on that, he might want to see something be able to still be downloadable with the source code itself. In practice though, how many actually use the LaTeX source to generate their own documentation, I would guess most go to the web site anyway. We would have to be careful though to make sure we annotate features to show over time at which version they were introduced, since we will not have parallel snapshots of documentation for each major release. Regarding hosting the official documentation within a wiki... A topic that has recently come up on infra@ is that anything that is editable by
Re: The mod_python wiki has materialized!
Anyone had any thoughts on how we are going to use the wiki? From prior comments it looks like we can't use it for the mod_python documentation if we intend to then ship a snapshot of the documentation with a release. I am not sure we are precluded from still using it for the documentation, it just means that we could not also include it in the release. To my mind this is possibly okay, as once the documentation was shifted to the wiki, wasn't thinking that a snapshot would be included with the release anyway. It is just a pity that the ASF doesn't use Confluence (the companion wiki product for JIRA), as the fine grained security mechanisms in that could have been used to protect the core documentation and prevent modification by people who shouldn't. I know that MoinMoin has fine grained access permissions as well, but from my experience it is a bit harder to configure as it requires changes to a file based configuration file to setup the default policy. Requiring this means intervention of the ASF infrastructure people and they are possibly too busy as it is. How individual page access and groups are setup with MoinMoin is also a fiddly process. At lease with Confluence such things are all controllable through the web interface and somewhat easier to manage. That MoinMoin is fiddly to setup is possibly why they recommend a separate wiki space for the protected documentation as then the default policy can be just to let the selected users edit the pages and one doesn't have to worry about manipulating access on individual pages. Graham On 13/09/2006, at 9:31 AM, Max Bowsher wrote: Graham Dumpleton wrote: On 13/09/2006, at 8:45 AM, Jim Gallacher wrote: Woot Woot Woot! We have our wiki! http://wiki.apache.org/mod_python/ Now comes the hard part... what the heck are we going to do with it? :) Ahhh, more work. :-( Obviously the FAQ stuff can go over there, but I would really like to see the main LaTeX documentation converted and hosted there so it can be updated more easily. Might have to ask Grisha's opinion on that, he might want to see something be able to still be downloadable with the source code itself. In practice though, how many actually use the LaTeX source to generate their own documentation, I would guess most go to the web site anyway. We would have to be careful though to make sure we annotate features to show over time at which version they were introduced, since we will not have parallel snapshots of documentation for each major release. Regarding hosting the official documentation within a wiki... A topic that has recently come up on infra@ is that anything that is editable by people without ASF CLAs on file is ineligible to be shipped as part of an official Apache release. Just thought I ought to call attention to that point, if wiki-fication of the main docs is being considered. Other projects have approached this by having two separate wikis, the documentation one being write-access-restricted to CLA-ed people. Max.
Re: The mod_python wiki has materialized!
I spoke too soon. The ASF has: http://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/homepage.action Now I am confused as to what roles MoinMoin fills versus the Confluence wiki. Can anyone fill me in on the roles of each? Graham On 12/10/2006, at 9:49 PM, Graham Dumpleton wrote: Anyone had any thoughts on how we are going to use the wiki? From prior comments it looks like we can't use it for the mod_python documentation if we intend to then ship a snapshot of the documentation with a release. I am not sure we are precluded from still using it for the documentation, it just means that we could not also include it in the release. To my mind this is possibly okay, as once the documentation was shifted to the wiki, wasn't thinking that a snapshot would be included with the release anyway. It is just a pity that the ASF doesn't use Confluence (the companion wiki product for JIRA), as the fine grained security mechanisms in that could have been used to protect the core documentation and prevent modification by people who shouldn't. I know that MoinMoin has fine grained access permissions as well, but from my experience it is a bit harder to configure as it requires changes to a file based configuration file to setup the default policy. Requiring this means intervention of the ASF infrastructure people and they are possibly too busy as it is. How individual page access and groups are setup with MoinMoin is also a fiddly process. At lease with Confluence such things are all controllable through the web interface and somewhat easier to manage. That MoinMoin is fiddly to setup is possibly why they recommend a separate wiki space for the protected documentation as then the default policy can be just to let the selected users edit the pages and one doesn't have to worry about manipulating access on individual pages. Graham On 13/09/2006, at 9:31 AM, Max Bowsher wrote: Graham Dumpleton wrote: On 13/09/2006, at 8:45 AM, Jim Gallacher wrote: Woot Woot Woot! We have our wiki! http://wiki.apache.org/mod_python/ Now comes the hard part... what the heck are we going to do with it? :) Ahhh, more work. :-( Obviously the FAQ stuff can go over there, but I would really like to see the main LaTeX documentation converted and hosted there so it can be updated more easily. Might have to ask Grisha's opinion on that, he might want to see something be able to still be downloadable with the source code itself. In practice though, how many actually use the LaTeX source to generate their own documentation, I would guess most go to the web site anyway. We would have to be careful though to make sure we annotate features to show over time at which version they were introduced, since we will not have parallel snapshots of documentation for each major release. Regarding hosting the official documentation within a wiki... A topic that has recently come up on infra@ is that anything that is editable by people without ASF CLAs on file is ineligible to be shipped as part of an official Apache release. Just thought I ought to call attention to that point, if wiki- fication of the main docs is being considered. Other projects have approached this by having two separate wikis, the documentation one being write-access-restricted to CLA-ed people. Max.
Re: The mod_python wiki has materialized!
Graham Dumpleton wrote: Anyone had any thoughts on how we are going to use the wiki? Sections 4, 5 and 6 (API, Apache Configuration Directives and Standard Handlers) of the current docs stay with in the source distribution. Everything else would be a candidate for the wiki. (We should likely decide which should go in the wiki vs the modpython.org website vs the httpd.apache.org/modules/mod_python website). In no particular order: News Roadmap Installation help for various OS platforms FAQ Tutorials Examples Security considerations Troubleshooting applications Mailing list information Developer information Bug reporting information Jim From prior comments it looks like we can't use it for the mod_python documentation if we intend to then ship a snapshot of the documentation with a release. I am not sure we are precluded from still using it for the documentation, it just means that we could not also include it in the release. To my mind this is possibly okay, as once the documentation was shifted to the wiki, wasn't thinking that a snapshot would be included with the release anyway. It is just a pity that the ASF doesn't use Confluence (the companion wiki product for JIRA), as the fine grained security mechanisms in that could have been used to protect the core documentation and prevent modification by people who shouldn't. I know that MoinMoin has fine grained access permissions as well, but from my experience it is a bit harder to configure as it requires changes to a file based configuration file to setup the default policy. Requiring this means intervention of the ASF infrastructure people and they are possibly too busy as it is. How individual page access and groups are setup with MoinMoin is also a fiddly process. At lease with Confluence such things are all controllable through the web interface and somewhat easier to manage. That MoinMoin is fiddly to setup is possibly why they recommend a separate wiki space for the protected documentation as then the default policy can be just to let the selected users edit the pages and one doesn't have to worry about manipulating access on individual pages. Graham On 13/09/2006, at 9:31 AM, Max Bowsher wrote: Graham Dumpleton wrote: On 13/09/2006, at 8:45 AM, Jim Gallacher wrote: Woot Woot Woot! We have our wiki! http://wiki.apache.org/mod_python/ Now comes the hard part... what the heck are we going to do with it? :) Ahhh, more work. :-( Obviously the FAQ stuff can go over there, but I would really like to see the main LaTeX documentation converted and hosted there so it can be updated more easily. Might have to ask Grisha's opinion on that, he might want to see something be able to still be downloadable with the source code itself. In practice though, how many actually use the LaTeX source to generate their own documentation, I would guess most go to the web site anyway. We would have to be careful though to make sure we annotate features to show over time at which version they were introduced, since we will not have parallel snapshots of documentation for each major release. Regarding hosting the official documentation within a wiki... A topic that has recently come up on infra@ is that anything that is editable by people without ASF CLAs on file is ineligible to be shipped as part of an official Apache release. Just thought I ought to call attention to that point, if wiki-fication of the main docs is being considered. Other projects have approached this by having two separate wikis, the documentation one being write-access-restricted to CLA-ed people. Max.
Re: The mod_python wiki has materialized!
Doing some digging into the Confluence wiki site, it seems we may be better off getting a wiki space created in there for mod_python which would be specifically for developing the official documentation. This could have restricted write access for core developers. That wiki space can then be exported as HTML/PDF to get a snapshot for inclusion in the release. Comments could be allowed for general Confluence users, but not actual page edits. The comments can be left out of any export. The comments would be as triggers for us to make amendments to the documentation. The MoinMoin site could be kept for general community contributions. Ie., the FAQ, examples of handlers, links to other resources etc etc. Graham On 12/10/2006, at 10:29 PM, Jim Gallacher wrote: Graham Dumpleton wrote: Anyone had any thoughts on how we are going to use the wiki? Sections 4, 5 and 6 (API, Apache Configuration Directives and Standard Handlers) of the current docs stay with in the source distribution. Everything else would be a candidate for the wiki. (We should likely decide which should go in the wiki vs the modpython.org website vs the httpd.apache.org/modules/mod_python website). In no particular order: News Roadmap Installation help for various OS platforms FAQ Tutorials Examples Security considerations Troubleshooting applications Mailing list information Developer information Bug reporting information Jim From prior comments it looks like we can't use it for the mod_python documentation if we intend to then ship a snapshot of the documentation with a release. I am not sure we are precluded from still using it for the documentation, it just means that we could not also include it in the release. To my mind this is possibly okay, as once the documentation was shifted to the wiki, wasn't thinking that a snapshot would be included with the release anyway. It is just a pity that the ASF doesn't use Confluence (the companion wiki product for JIRA), as the fine grained security mechanisms in that could have been used to protect the core documentation and prevent modification by people who shouldn't. I know that MoinMoin has fine grained access permissions as well, but from my experience it is a bit harder to configure as it requires changes to a file based configuration file to setup the default policy. Requiring this means intervention of the ASF infrastructure people and they are possibly too busy as it is. How individual page access and groups are setup with MoinMoin is also a fiddly process. At lease with Confluence such things are all controllable through the web interface and somewhat easier to manage. That MoinMoin is fiddly to setup is possibly why they recommend a separate wiki space for the protected documentation as then the default policy can be just to let the selected users edit the pages and one doesn't have to worry about manipulating access on individual pages. Graham On 13/09/2006, at 9:31 AM, Max Bowsher wrote: Graham Dumpleton wrote: On 13/09/2006, at 8:45 AM, Jim Gallacher wrote: Woot Woot Woot! We have our wiki! http://wiki.apache.org/mod_python/ Now comes the hard part... what the heck are we going to do with it? :) Ahhh, more work. :-( Obviously the FAQ stuff can go over there, but I would really like to see the main LaTeX documentation converted and hosted there so it can be updated more easily. Might have to ask Grisha's opinion on that, he might want to see something be able to still be downloadable with the source code itself. In practice though, how many actually use the LaTeX source to generate their own documentation, I would guess most go to the web site anyway. We would have to be careful though to make sure we annotate features to show over time at which version they were introduced, since we will not have parallel snapshots of documentation for each major release. Regarding hosting the official documentation within a wiki... A topic that has recently come up on infra@ is that anything that is editable by people without ASF CLAs on file is ineligible to be shipped as part of an official Apache release. Just thought I ought to call attention to that point, if wiki- fication of the main docs is being considered. Other projects have approached this by having two separate wikis, the documentation one being write-access-restricted to CLA-ed people. Max.
Re: The mod_python wiki has materialized!
+1 Sounds like a good plan. Jim Graham Dumpleton wrote: Doing some digging into the Confluence wiki site, it seems we may be better off getting a wiki space created in there for mod_python which would be specifically for developing the official documentation. This could have restricted write access for core developers. That wiki space can then be exported as HTML/PDF to get a snapshot for inclusion in the release. Comments could be allowed for general Confluence users, but not actual page edits. The comments can be left out of any export. The comments would be as triggers for us to make amendments to the documentation. The MoinMoin site could be kept for general community contributions. Ie., the FAQ, examples of handlers, links to other resources etc etc. Graham On 12/10/2006, at 10:29 PM, Jim Gallacher wrote: Graham Dumpleton wrote: Anyone had any thoughts on how we are going to use the wiki? Sections 4, 5 and 6 (API, Apache Configuration Directives and Standard Handlers) of the current docs stay with in the source distribution. Everything else would be a candidate for the wiki. (We should likely decide which should go in the wiki vs the modpython.org website vs the httpd.apache.org/modules/mod_python website). In no particular order: News Roadmap Installation help for various OS platforms FAQ Tutorials Examples Security considerations Troubleshooting applications Mailing list information Developer information Bug reporting information Jim From prior comments it looks like we can't use it for the mod_python documentation if we intend to then ship a snapshot of the documentation with a release. I am not sure we are precluded from still using it for the documentation, it just means that we could not also include it in the release. To my mind this is possibly okay, as once the documentation was shifted to the wiki, wasn't thinking that a snapshot would be included with the release anyway. It is just a pity that the ASF doesn't use Confluence (the companion wiki product for JIRA), as the fine grained security mechanisms in that could have been used to protect the core documentation and prevent modification by people who shouldn't. I know that MoinMoin has fine grained access permissions as well, but from my experience it is a bit harder to configure as it requires changes to a file based configuration file to setup the default policy. Requiring this means intervention of the ASF infrastructure people and they are possibly too busy as it is. How individual page access and groups are setup with MoinMoin is also a fiddly process. At lease with Confluence such things are all controllable through the web interface and somewhat easier to manage. That MoinMoin is fiddly to setup is possibly why they recommend a separate wiki space for the protected documentation as then the default policy can be just to let the selected users edit the pages and one doesn't have to worry about manipulating access on individual pages. Graham On 13/09/2006, at 9:31 AM, Max Bowsher wrote: Graham Dumpleton wrote: On 13/09/2006, at 8:45 AM, Jim Gallacher wrote: Woot Woot Woot! We have our wiki! http://wiki.apache.org/mod_python/ Now comes the hard part... what the heck are we going to do with it? :) Ahhh, more work. :-( Obviously the FAQ stuff can go over there, but I would really like to see the main LaTeX documentation converted and hosted there so it can be updated more easily. Might have to ask Grisha's opinion on that, he might want to see something be able to still be downloadable with the source code itself. In practice though, how many actually use the LaTeX source to generate their own documentation, I would guess most go to the web site anyway. We would have to be careful though to make sure we annotate features to show over time at which version they were introduced, since we will not have parallel snapshots of documentation for each major release. Regarding hosting the official documentation within a wiki... A topic that has recently come up on infra@ is that anything that is editable by people without ASF CLAs on file is ineligible to be shipped as part of an official Apache release. Just thought I ought to call attention to that point, if wiki-fication of the main docs is being considered. Other projects have approached this by having two separate wikis, the documentation one being write-access-restricted to CLA-ed people. Max.
Re: The mod_python wiki has materialized!
Graham Dumpleton wrote: On 13/09/2006, at 8:45 AM, Jim Gallacher wrote: Woot Woot Woot! We have our wiki! http://wiki.apache.org/mod_python/ Now comes the hard part... what the heck are we going to do with it? :) Ahhh, more work. :-( Obviously the FAQ stuff can go over there, but I would really like to see the main LaTeX documentation converted and hosted there so it can be updated more easily. Might have to ask Grisha's opinion on that, he might want to see something be able to still be downloadable with the source code itself. In practice though, how many actually use the LaTeX source to generate their own documentation, I would guess most go to the web site anyway. We would have to be careful though to make sure we annotate features to show over time at which version they were introduced, since we will not have parallel snapshots of documentation for each major release. Regarding hosting the official documentation within a wiki... A topic that has recently come up on infra@ is that anything that is editable by people without ASF CLAs on file is ineligible to be shipped as part of an official Apache release. Just thought I ought to call attention to that point, if wiki-fication of the main docs is being considered. Other projects have approached this by having two separate wikis, the documentation one being write-access-restricted to CLA-ed people. Max. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
