Re: nightlies vs release: two files

[Peter Lynch]

I'm trying to understand why the nightlies have a _bin.zip and _lib.zip
instead of just a single .zip like the official 2.4 release did.

I know the _lib.zip contains the third party jars and _bin.zip contains
everything else - but why not a single .zip like the official release?

-Peter


On Thu, Apr 14, 2011 at 9:24 AM, sebb  wrote:

> On 14 April 2011 14:14, Peter Lynch  wrote:
> > The nightlies require unzipping two files to make a usable runtime as
> > described here http://people.apache.org/builds/jakarta-jmeter/nightly/ .
> >
> > Is it correct to assume that the a final release will just be one
> > distributable?
>
> Sort of.
>
> There is a binary dist and a source dist, and each is available as zip
> and tar.gz, so there are actually 4 archives (plus hashes and sigs).
>
> However only one binary is needed to run JMeter.
>
> Here is the download page:
>
> http://jakarta.apache.org/site/downloads/downloads_jmeter.cgi
>
> > -Peter
> >
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@jakarta.apache.org
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>
>


-- 
Peter Lynch
http://blog.peterlynch.ca

nightlies vs release: two files

[Peter Lynch]

The nightlies require unzipping two files to make a usable runtime as
described here http://people.apache.org/builds/jakarta-jmeter/nightly/ .

Is it correct to assume that the a final release will just be one
distributable?

-Peter

Re: [JMeter] Convert to Maven based build?

[Peter Lynch]

Peter Lin,


On Thu, Nov 25, 2010 at 10:49 PM, Peter Lin  wrote:

> so far I am not convinced of the benefits of changing to maven.
>
> my vote is still -1
>
> As I said before, my feeling is jmeter is mature and stable. JMeter
> isn't missing any critical features and seb has done a phenominal job
> of maintaining it.
>
> It's not like there's 10 critical features JMeter must have. Frankly,
> I don't buy the argument that jmeter will die. Given JMeter's focus is
>

Obviously I did not suggest JMeter will die if it doesn't use Maven ?? Where
in the world...


> narrow, there's no point bloating it with lots of useless knobs and
> buttons. I also don't buy the argument of building developer
> community. JMeter's developer list has always been small even before I
> joined. I attribute this to the focused nature of jmeter. JMeter
> doesn't try to be the kitchen sink, butler, maid, dumb waiter, door
> bell, race car and bus all rolled into one.
>
> What kind of improvement are you talking about? What kind of growth
> are you talking about?
>
>
I'm just suggesting that it is convenient to load a project's sources into a
modern IDE and have the IDE instantly know how to build the project without
setting up anything. That I can use previous knowledge of working on other
projects and reuse it with this one. That it is useful for a project to
share it's artifacts with others in a standard way. That someone who wants
to contribute a patch or fix a bug or write a test has a lower barrier to
entry.

I've already stated other benefits in previous messages and in the bugzilla
issue.

Don't worry - I'm not launching JMeter Inc.

Performance tools have a nitch and will always be that way. There's no
> realistic way to drastically grow jmeter's user base. Even though the
> traffic on the mailing list doesn't show it, the user base is much
> larger. Before I joined jmeter, I thought the user base was small.
> Once I started hearing from users directly, it became apparent the
> user base is much larger. For example, I know aetna uses it across
> their enterprise and is officially recommended by their standards and
> practices group. That's a huge user base in just 1 health care
> company.
>
> I also know the university of connecticut uses jmeter as their
> standard testing tool.
>
> What's the difference between running ant vs build command? What's the
> cost vs time benefit for switching? I won't speak for sebastian, but
> my experience is that maven 1 & 2 aren't reliable. If sebastian is ok
> with the change, I'm ok with it. He is the one who has been actively
> maintaining it and he is the one who will have to suffer maven.
>
>
Is it really necessary to use terms like 'road to hell', describe some ideas
as 'stupid', imply suffering and burdens.  Perhaps it may cause some people
to ignore your experiences and opinions and focus instead on your generally
poor demeanor. I'm not seeing how it helps your arguments.

At the end of the day, I'm just looking to volunteer my time to add value to
a project I use. I am not here to sell Maven like snake oil.

I refuse to predict how great or horrible JMeter will become if it uses
Maven - I'd rather spend time writing a conversion script to at least
provide the option for factual evaluation.

Long after other developer leave, sebastian will probably be the one
> maintaining it. My suggestion is to think of sebastian and the burden
> you put on him. Don't arbitrarily change the build because you happen
> to love maven.
>
> On Thu, Nov 25, 2010 at 9:21 PM, Peter Lynch  wrote:
> > Truthfully the main motivation for proposing to use Maven to build JMeter
> is
> > to increase the chances of getting more people involved in the project,
> to
> > fix bugs, to send patches and add features.
> >
> > Honestly do we expect the majority of potential developers to run for the
> > hills and the project to die if JMeter project is built with Maven?
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Nov 25, 2010 at 3:29 PM, Peter Lin  wrote:
> >
> >> even though I haven't been active in jmeter in a while, I am still a
> >> jmeter committer.
> >>
> >> quite honestly, I've seen maven work first hand.
> >>
> >> 1. the claim it reduces maintenance has not truth. My first hand
> >> experience is that it creates a much bigger burden.
> >>
> >>
> > Configuration management maintenance burden is relative to the frequency
> of
> > change within the project. If what JMeter delivers in terms of final
> > artifacts does not change, I don't expect maintaini

Re: [JMeter] Convert to Maven based build?

[Peter Lynch]

gt; 1. A detailed set of objections to which Peter should be able to respond.
> >
> > 2. Some justification as to why the community would reject initiative?
> >
> > 3. A reasonable attempt to understand the merit of a particular proposal.
> >
> > I think the "maven is a road to hell" rhetoric violates the necessary
> sense of decorum that enables a group of volunteers to work together.  It
> runs counter to the ideas the Foundation (supposedly) adheres to.
> >
> > If you are really casting a veto on peter's initiative stand up and
> present a viable counter-argument.  If you don't I do believe the the
> community should disregard you previous email.
> >
> > Tim O'Brien
> >
> >
> > On Nov 25, 2010, at 12:46 PM, Peter Lin  wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> I hate maven and it sucks. It does not reduce maintenance at all. I vote
> against changing to maven.
> >>
> >> -1
> >>
> >> Maven is a road to he'll on my book
> >>
> >> Sent from my iPhone
> >>
> >> On Nov 25, 2010, at 1:28 PM, sebb  wrote:
> >>
> >>> On 25 November 2010 17:54, Peter Lynch  wrote:
> >>>> Hi sebb,
> >>>>
> >>>> On Thu, Nov 25, 2010 at 9:42 AM, sebb  wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> On 25 November 2010 14:18, Peter Lynch  wrote:
> >>>>>> I am wondering if there is developer support for the idea of
> converting
> >>>>>> JMeter's build process to be based on Maven. If there is suitable
> support
> >>>>> of
> >>>>>> this idea, I was going to start writing a conversion script that
> would
> >>>>>> convert the project sources while maintaining as much scm history as
> >>>>>> possible.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Should be possible to maintain all SCM history if done properly.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Note that changes of source layout will cause a (one-off) problem for
> >>>>> people who maintain private patches.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> I have outlined some of the advantages this offers in this
> enhancement
> >>>>>> https://issues.apache.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=50324
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> <https://issues.apache.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=50324>
> >>>>>> So what do the developers think?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Why do you want to build JMeter with Maven?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> I'd like JMeter to be accessible to as many developers as possible.
> I'd like
> >>>> the source code layout to be more standardized, to be more accessible
> to
> >>>> Java developers who want to contribute to the project. I'd like to fix
> >>>> problems in JMeter source code by opening the project in any IDE that
> >>>> supports Maven project structures and know instantly how to run tests,
> build
> >>>> and deploy. I'd like the artifacts that JMeter produces to be in a
> format
> >>>> that can be more easily reused and referenced by other projects.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> Is it just so that JMeter jars can be uploaded to Maven Central?
> >>>>> If so, then there are simpler ways to achieve this.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> No that is not the primary reason, see above. I am familiar with how
> to get
> >>>> jars on Central using various methods - I work at Sonatype afterall
> ;).
> >>>>
> >>>> Is it so that you can run JMeter with Maven (assuming jars are in
> Central)?
> >>>>
> >>>> If so, then potentially major changes are needed to JMeter, because
> >>>>> currently it maintains its own classpath, and expects to find jars in
> >>>>> specific locations.
> >>>>> For example, lib/ext is searched for JMeter components; lib is not.
> >>>>> Since JMeter has to do quite a lot of jar scanning, it is important
> >>>>> that this is efficient.
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> You bring up some good points but all of this is scope creep - it may
> come
> >>>> as an eventual side effect but that is not the main goal.
> >>>
> >>> This is not scope creep - if the above mentioned issues are not
> >>> addres

Re: [JMeter] Convert to Maven based build?

[Peter Lynch]

Hi sebb,

On Thu, Nov 25, 2010 at 9:42 AM, sebb  wrote:

> On 25 November 2010 14:18, Peter Lynch  wrote:
> > I am wondering if there is developer support for the idea of converting
> > JMeter's build process to be based on Maven. If there is suitable support
> of
> > this idea, I was going to start writing a conversion script that would
> > convert the project sources while maintaining as much scm history as
> > possible.
>
> Should be possible to maintain all SCM history if done properly.
>
> Note that changes of source layout will cause a (one-off) problem for
> people who maintain private patches.
>
> > I have outlined some of the advantages this offers in this enhancement
> > https://issues.apache.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=50324
> >
> > <https://issues.apache.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=50324>
> > So what do the developers think?
>
> Why do you want to build JMeter with Maven?
>
>
I'd like JMeter to be accessible to as many developers as possible. I'd like
the source code layout to be more standardized, to be more accessible to
Java developers who want to contribute to the project. I'd like to fix
problems in JMeter source code by opening the project in any IDE that
supports Maven project structures and know instantly how to run tests, build
and deploy. I'd like the artifacts that JMeter produces to be in a format
that can be more easily reused and referenced by other projects.


> Is it just so that JMeter jars can be uploaded to Maven Central?
> If so, then there are simpler ways to achieve this.
>
>
No that is not the primary reason, see above. I am familiar with how to get
jars on Central using various methods - I work at Sonatype afterall ;).

Is it so that you can run JMeter with Maven (assuming jars are in Central)?

If so, then potentially major changes are needed to JMeter, because
> currently it maintains its own classpath, and expects to find jars in
> specific locations.
> For example, lib/ext is searched for JMeter components; lib is not.
> Since JMeter has to do quite a lot of jar scanning, it is important
> that this is efficient.
>

You bring up some good points but all of this is scope creep - it may come
as an eventual side effect but that is not the main goal. It may turn out
that during the conversion process there is some roadblock that would
prevent Maven being useful - but I doubt it. I would suggest any changes
converting to Maven brings affects mostly project structure, accessibility
and maintainability over the long term.


>
> Note also that the Ant build does some work that may be tricky to
> implement in Maven.
> For example, the documentation is built twice - once for web-site, and
> once for the dynamic help system.
> The build also creates a lot of different jars.
> My experience of multimodule Maven builds is that they can take a lot
> longer than Ant, and are tricky to get working correctly.
>
> I'm not saying that JMeter can't or won't use Maven for builds, but
> it's not going to be at all easy to implement and maintain.
> I know from my participation in Apache Commons that even simple
> projects can spend quite a lot of time on Maven issues.
>
>
It sounds like you have some valuable experience to draw upon. That's great!

As long as there is not a defacto no to experimenting using Maven then I
suggest to come up with a script first that does the conversion, and then
discuss if the end result tradeoffs make JMeter a better project or not (...
and if the changes the script applies should get committed).



> > -Peter
> > <https://issues.apache.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=50324>
> >
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@jakarta.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@jakarta.apache.org
>
>


-- 
Peter Lynch
http://blog.peterlynch.ca

[JMeter] Convert to Maven based build?

[Peter Lynch]

I am wondering if there is developer support for the idea of converting
JMeter's build process to be based on Maven. If there is suitable support of
this idea, I was going to start writing a conversion script that would
convert the project sources while maintaining as much scm history as
possible.

I have outlined some of the advantages this offers in this enhancement
https://issues.apache.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=50324


So what do the developers think?

-Peter