Re: Propose to discontinue supporting Apache MXNet on Windows 7

[kellen sunderland]

Google analytics are sadly probably the best numbers we're going to get.
Of course these numbers are likely to over-represent windows usage, as I'm
sure many people are looking up documentation on a windows machine while
ssh'd into a cloud instance or IoT device.

What's the trend over time for these numbers Mu?  Is Windows 7 usage
relatively stable over the last year?

On Sun, Sep 2, 2018 at 1:58 AM Mu Li  wrote:

> According to google analytics, ~12% users who visited mxnet's website are
> using Windows 7. It's a significant number. Even though we cannot conclude
> that all of these users will run MXNet on Windows 7, I suggest we still
> support win7.
>
> BTW, anyone who can access mxnet's google analytics report can verify this
> number by following this instruction:
>
> https://stackoverflow.com/questions/1340778/detecting-windows-7-with-google-analytics
>
>
>
> On Sat, Sep 1, 2018 at 1:55 PM Steffen Rochel 
> wrote:
>
> > I support a data driven decision. Any suggestions how we can obtain
> insight
> > about OS usage of the MXNet user community?
> > Can we get such information from pip install statistics or should we
> > perform a user poll on the discussion forum?
> > On the other hand the lack of data should not prevent us from moving
> > forward and dropping support for outdated OS.
> > In any case we would have to announce dropping a platform support at
> least
> > a release in advance.
> > Steffen
> >
> > On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 12:21 PM Sheng Zha  wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Kellen,
> > >
> > > Thanks for the explanation. Unfortunately, I don't have the usage data,
> > so
> > > I refrained from voting. If any of the voters have such data I'd love
> to
> > > see it too.
> > >
> > > -sz
> > >
> > > On 2018/08/30 14:58:09, kellen sunderland  >
> > > wrote:
> > > > I haven't spoken to anyone about the decision (as I'm currently on an
> > > > island in the med) but to me the quick +1s are likely a result of
> this
> > > > being a fairly straightforward decision.  The factors that went into
> my
> > > > thinking were (1) prioritizing growing platforms rather than
> shrinking
> > > > platforms (i.e. thinking long term rather than shirt term) and (2)
> > > earning
> > > > our customers' trust.  Claiming support for a platform when we can't
> > > > realistically deliver it would lose us trust.  I'd prefer to over
> > deliver
> > > > and under promise when it come to windows 7 for this reason.
> > > >
> > > > Now on the flip side one thing I would see as valuable is to try and
> > get
> > > > windows builds working with clang.  This could be beneficial in the
> > sense
> > > > that it would be easy to maintain for mxnet devs and allow us to use
> > > modern
> > > > cpp on older windows machines without using vs 2013(which I consider
> a
> > > > non-starter with our codebase).
> > > >
> > > > You have peaked my curiousity though Sheng.  How many win7 users does
> > > MXNet
> > > > have relative to macos/Linux?
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 8:51 AM Sheng Zha  wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hi Yuan,
> > > > >
> > > > > No problem. This is an issue that's worth having a clear
> definition,
> > so
> > > > > there's nothing wrong about your proposal, and thanks for bringing
> > > this up.
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm more concerned about the seemingly unanimous votes on dropping
> > > support
> > > > > on a platform without seeing the supporting evidence that it's the
> > > right
> > > > > thing. It is as if everyone who participated in the vote are
> already
> > > on the
> > > > > same page, and somehow I'm the only one that's not. But the only
> > > argument I
> > > > > hear so far is that it's technically not straightforward to
> continue
> > > the
> > > > > support, which, coming from Amazon folks, certainly doesn't sound
> > > > > customer-obsessed.
> > > > >
> > > > > -sz
> > > > >
> > > > > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 11:37 PM Lin Yuan 
> > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Hi Sheng,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks for raising this concern. The problem now is that we
> cannot
> > > even
> > > > > > build MXNet on Windows 7 because the build process requires MS VS
> > > 2015 w/
> > > > > > update 3 which is incompatible on Windows 7. This leaves many
> > > Windows 7
> > > > > > related open issues on github without any timely response. In my
> > > opinion,
> > > > > > having no response to users' request is probably even worse than
> > > letting
> > > > > > them know the limitation of OS support.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > To minimize the impact to current Windows 7 users, we can provide
> > > PyPi
> > > > > > package for Windows 7 in this release but defer the bug fix and
> > > feature
> > > > > > enhancement to later Windows OS version. Based on users'
> feedbacks,
> > > we
> > > > > can
> > > > > > then officially discontinue the Windows 7 support in the next
> MXNet
> > > > > > release.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I will appreciate your comments.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Lin
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On 

Re: Propose to discontinue supporting Apache MXNet on Windows 7

[Mu Li]

According to google analytics, ~12% users who visited mxnet's website are
using Windows 7. It's a significant number. Even though we cannot conclude
that all of these users will run MXNet on Windows 7, I suggest we still
support win7.

BTW, anyone who can access mxnet's google analytics report can verify this
number by following this instruction:
https://stackoverflow.com/questions/1340778/detecting-windows-7-with-google-analytics



On Sat, Sep 1, 2018 at 1:55 PM Steffen Rochel 
wrote:

> I support a data driven decision. Any suggestions how we can obtain insight
> about OS usage of the MXNet user community?
> Can we get such information from pip install statistics or should we
> perform a user poll on the discussion forum?
> On the other hand the lack of data should not prevent us from moving
> forward and dropping support for outdated OS.
> In any case we would have to announce dropping a platform support at least
> a release in advance.
> Steffen
>
> On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 12:21 PM Sheng Zha  wrote:
>
> > Hi Kellen,
> >
> > Thanks for the explanation. Unfortunately, I don't have the usage data,
> so
> > I refrained from voting. If any of the voters have such data I'd love to
> > see it too.
> >
> > -sz
> >
> > On 2018/08/30 14:58:09, kellen sunderland 
> > wrote:
> > > I haven't spoken to anyone about the decision (as I'm currently on an
> > > island in the med) but to me the quick +1s are likely a result of this
> > > being a fairly straightforward decision.  The factors that went into my
> > > thinking were (1) prioritizing growing platforms rather than shrinking
> > > platforms (i.e. thinking long term rather than shirt term) and (2)
> > earning
> > > our customers' trust.  Claiming support for a platform when we can't
> > > realistically deliver it would lose us trust.  I'd prefer to over
> deliver
> > > and under promise when it come to windows 7 for this reason.
> > >
> > > Now on the flip side one thing I would see as valuable is to try and
> get
> > > windows builds working with clang.  This could be beneficial in the
> sense
> > > that it would be easy to maintain for mxnet devs and allow us to use
> > modern
> > > cpp on older windows machines without using vs 2013(which I consider a
> > > non-starter with our codebase).
> > >
> > > You have peaked my curiousity though Sheng.  How many win7 users does
> > MXNet
> > > have relative to macos/Linux?
> > >
> > > On Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 8:51 AM Sheng Zha  wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi Yuan,
> > > >
> > > > No problem. This is an issue that's worth having a clear definition,
> so
> > > > there's nothing wrong about your proposal, and thanks for bringing
> > this up.
> > > >
> > > > I'm more concerned about the seemingly unanimous votes on dropping
> > support
> > > > on a platform without seeing the supporting evidence that it's the
> > right
> > > > thing. It is as if everyone who participated in the vote are already
> > on the
> > > > same page, and somehow I'm the only one that's not. But the only
> > argument I
> > > > hear so far is that it's technically not straightforward to continue
> > the
> > > > support, which, coming from Amazon folks, certainly doesn't sound
> > > > customer-obsessed.
> > > >
> > > > -sz
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 11:37 PM Lin Yuan 
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hi Sheng,
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks for raising this concern. The problem now is that we cannot
> > even
> > > > > build MXNet on Windows 7 because the build process requires MS VS
> > 2015 w/
> > > > > update 3 which is incompatible on Windows 7. This leaves many
> > Windows 7
> > > > > related open issues on github without any timely response. In my
> > opinion,
> > > > > having no response to users' request is probably even worse than
> > letting
> > > > > them know the limitation of OS support.
> > > > >
> > > > > To minimize the impact to current Windows 7 users, we can provide
> > PyPi
> > > > > package for Windows 7 in this release but defer the bug fix and
> > feature
> > > > > enhancement to later Windows OS version. Based on users' feedbacks,
> > we
> > > > can
> > > > > then officially discontinue the Windows 7 support in the next MXNet
> > > > > release.
> > > > >
> > > > > I will appreciate your comments.
> > > > >
> > > > > Lin
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 1:37 PM Sheng Zha 
> > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Are any of the votes based on any measure of user impact, if we
> > indeed
> > > > > > decide not to fix the current problems?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -sz
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 1:29 PM Hagay Lupesko  >
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > +1 (non-binding)
> > > > > > > Thanks for raising this Lin!
> > > > > > > Are you suggesting to do it as part of MXNet 1.3?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 9:14 AM Srivastava, Rohit Kumar <
> > > > > > > srivastava@buckeyemail.osu.edu> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > +1
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On 

Re: [VOTE] Release MXNet version 1.3.0.RC0

[Joshua Z. Zhang]

-1. Please include all 3rd party dependencies, GitHub won’t automatically do 
that. 

BTW, Per user request in forum, I found this 
PR(https://github.com/apache/incubator-mxnet/pull/12118 
) is not included in 1.3 
rc0, I recommend to cherry-pick into release to avoid potential problems. 

Best,
Zhi
> On Sep 1, 2018, at 2:27 PM, Steffen Rochel  wrote:
> 
> -1
> 
> https://github.com/apache/incubator-mxnet/archive/1.3.0.rc0.zip and
> https://github.com/apache/incubator-mxnet/archive/1.3.0.rc0.tar.gz do not
> contain 3rdparty packages, resulting in make failure:
> tar zxf incubator-mxnet-1.3.0.rc0.tar.gz
> cd incubator-mxnet-1.3.0.rc0/
> make USE_OPENCV=1 USE_BLAS=openblas
> Makefile:74:
> /home/steffen/Downloads/incubator-mxnet-1.3.0.rc0/3rdparty/mshadow/make/
> mshadow.mk: No such file or directory
> Makefile:75:
> /home/steffen/Downloads/incubator-mxnet-1.3.0.rc0/3rdparty/dmlc-core/make/
> dmlc.mk: No such file or directory
> Makefile:176: "USE_LAPACK disabled because libraries were not found"
> Makefile:284: WARNING: Significant performance increases can be achieved by
> installing and enabling gperftools or jemalloc development packages
> Makefile:355:
> /home/steffen/Downloads/incubator-mxnet-1.3.0.rc0/3rdparty/ps-lite/make/
> ps.mk: No such file or directory
> make: *** No rule to make target
> '/home/steffen/Downloads/incubator-mxnet-1.3.0.rc0/3rdparty/ps-lite/make/
> ps.mk'.  Stop.
> 
> ~/Downloads/incubator-mxnet-1.3.0.rc0/3rdparty$ ls -al *
> cub:
> total 8
> drwxr-xr-x  2 steffen steffen 4096 Aug 29 10:07 .
> drwxr-xr-x 12 steffen steffen 4096 Aug 29 10:07 ..
> 
> dlpack:
> total 8
> drwxr-xr-x  2 steffen steffen 4096 Aug 29 10:07 .
> drwxr-xr-x 12 steffen steffen 4096 Aug 29 10:07 ..
> 
> dmlc-core:
> total 8
> drwxr-xr-x  2 steffen steffen 4096 Aug 29 10:07 .
> drwxr-xr-x 12 steffen steffen 4096 Aug 29 10:07 ..
> 
> Environment:
> uname -a
> Linux steffen 4.15.0-33-generic #36-Ubuntu SMP Wed Aug 15 16:00:05 UTC 2018
> x86_64 x86_64 x86_64 GNU/L
> 
> Build from git succeeded:
> git clone --recursive https://github.com/apache/incubator-mxnet --branch
> 1.3.0.rc0
> cd incubator-mxnet/
> git checkout 1.3.0.rc0
> make USE_OPENCV=1 USE_BLAS=openblas
> cd python/
> sudo pip install -e .
> 
 import mxnet as mx
 print(mx.__version__)
> 1.3.0
> 
> I was expecting version to be 1.3.0.rc0
> 
> Steffen
> 
> 
> 
> On Sat, Sep 1, 2018 at 3:22 AM Pigeon Lucky  wrote:
> 
>> +1
>> 
>> On Sat, 1 Sep 2018, 10:59 Roshani Nagmote, 
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> Hi all,
>>> 
>>> I would like to propose a vote to release Apache MXNet (incubating)
>> version
>>> 1.3.0.RC0. Voting will start now (Friday, Aug 31st) and end at 7:00 PM
>>> PDT, Wednesday, Sept 5th.
>>> 
>>> Link to release notes:
>>> https://github.com/apache/incubator-mxnet/releases
>>> 
>>> Link to release candidate 1.3.0.rc0:
>>> *https://github.com/apache/incubator-mxnet/releases/tag/1.3.0.rc
>>> 0*
>>> 
>>> View this page, click on "Build from Source", and use the source code
>>> obtained from 1.3.0.rc0 tag:
>>> https://mxnet.incubator.apache.org/install/index.html
>>> 
>>> Please remember to TEST first before voting accordingly:
>>> 
>>> +1 = approve
>>> +0 = no opinion
>>> -1 = disapprove (provide reason)
>>> 
>>> Thanks,
>>> Roshani
>>> 
>> 

Re: [VOTE] Release MXNet version 1.3.0.RC0

[Steffen Rochel]

-1

https://github.com/apache/incubator-mxnet/archive/1.3.0.rc0.zip and
https://github.com/apache/incubator-mxnet/archive/1.3.0.rc0.tar.gz do not
contain 3rdparty packages, resulting in make failure:
tar zxf incubator-mxnet-1.3.0.rc0.tar.gz
cd incubator-mxnet-1.3.0.rc0/
make USE_OPENCV=1 USE_BLAS=openblas
Makefile:74:
/home/steffen/Downloads/incubator-mxnet-1.3.0.rc0/3rdparty/mshadow/make/
mshadow.mk: No such file or directory
Makefile:75:
/home/steffen/Downloads/incubator-mxnet-1.3.0.rc0/3rdparty/dmlc-core/make/
dmlc.mk: No such file or directory
Makefile:176: "USE_LAPACK disabled because libraries were not found"
Makefile:284: WARNING: Significant performance increases can be achieved by
installing and enabling gperftools or jemalloc development packages
Makefile:355:
/home/steffen/Downloads/incubator-mxnet-1.3.0.rc0/3rdparty/ps-lite/make/
ps.mk: No such file or directory
make: *** No rule to make target
'/home/steffen/Downloads/incubator-mxnet-1.3.0.rc0/3rdparty/ps-lite/make/
ps.mk'.  Stop.

~/Downloads/incubator-mxnet-1.3.0.rc0/3rdparty$ ls -al *
cub:
total 8
drwxr-xr-x  2 steffen steffen 4096 Aug 29 10:07 .
drwxr-xr-x 12 steffen steffen 4096 Aug 29 10:07 ..

dlpack:
total 8
drwxr-xr-x  2 steffen steffen 4096 Aug 29 10:07 .
drwxr-xr-x 12 steffen steffen 4096 Aug 29 10:07 ..

dmlc-core:
total 8
drwxr-xr-x  2 steffen steffen 4096 Aug 29 10:07 .
drwxr-xr-x 12 steffen steffen 4096 Aug 29 10:07 ..

Environment:
uname -a
Linux steffen 4.15.0-33-generic #36-Ubuntu SMP Wed Aug 15 16:00:05 UTC 2018
x86_64 x86_64 x86_64 GNU/L

Build from git succeeded:
git clone --recursive https://github.com/apache/incubator-mxnet --branch
1.3.0.rc0
cd incubator-mxnet/
git checkout 1.3.0.rc0
make USE_OPENCV=1 USE_BLAS=openblas
cd python/
sudo pip install -e .

>>> import mxnet as mx
>>> print(mx.__version__)
1.3.0

I was expecting version to be 1.3.0.rc0

Steffen



On Sat, Sep 1, 2018 at 3:22 AM Pigeon Lucky  wrote:

> +1
>
> On Sat, 1 Sep 2018, 10:59 Roshani Nagmote, 
> wrote:
>
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I would like to propose a vote to release Apache MXNet (incubating)
> version
> > 1.3.0.RC0. Voting will start now (Friday, Aug 31st) and end at 7:00 PM
> > PDT, Wednesday, Sept 5th.
> >
> > Link to release notes:
> > https://github.com/apache/incubator-mxnet/releases
> >
> > Link to release candidate 1.3.0.rc0:
> > *https://github.com/apache/incubator-mxnet/releases/tag/1.3.0.rc
> > 0*
> >
> > View this page, click on "Build from Source", and use the source code
> > obtained from 1.3.0.rc0 tag:
> > https://mxnet.incubator.apache.org/install/index.html
> >
> > Please remember to TEST first before voting accordingly:
> >
> > +1 = approve
> > +0 = no opinion
> > -1 = disapprove (provide reason)
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Roshani
> >
>

Re: Propose to discontinue supporting Apache MXNet on Windows 7

[Steffen Rochel]

I support a data driven decision. Any suggestions how we can obtain insight
about OS usage of the MXNet user community?
Can we get such information from pip install statistics or should we
perform a user poll on the discussion forum?
On the other hand the lack of data should not prevent us from moving
forward and dropping support for outdated OS.
In any case we would have to announce dropping a platform support at least
a release in advance.
Steffen

On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 12:21 PM Sheng Zha  wrote:

> Hi Kellen,
>
> Thanks for the explanation. Unfortunately, I don't have the usage data, so
> I refrained from voting. If any of the voters have such data I'd love to
> see it too.
>
> -sz
>
> On 2018/08/30 14:58:09, kellen sunderland 
> wrote:
> > I haven't spoken to anyone about the decision (as I'm currently on an
> > island in the med) but to me the quick +1s are likely a result of this
> > being a fairly straightforward decision.  The factors that went into my
> > thinking were (1) prioritizing growing platforms rather than shrinking
> > platforms (i.e. thinking long term rather than shirt term) and (2)
> earning
> > our customers' trust.  Claiming support for a platform when we can't
> > realistically deliver it would lose us trust.  I'd prefer to over deliver
> > and under promise when it come to windows 7 for this reason.
> >
> > Now on the flip side one thing I would see as valuable is to try and get
> > windows builds working with clang.  This could be beneficial in the sense
> > that it would be easy to maintain for mxnet devs and allow us to use
> modern
> > cpp on older windows machines without using vs 2013(which I consider a
> > non-starter with our codebase).
> >
> > You have peaked my curiousity though Sheng.  How many win7 users does
> MXNet
> > have relative to macos/Linux?
> >
> > On Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 8:51 AM Sheng Zha  wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Yuan,
> > >
> > > No problem. This is an issue that's worth having a clear definition, so
> > > there's nothing wrong about your proposal, and thanks for bringing
> this up.
> > >
> > > I'm more concerned about the seemingly unanimous votes on dropping
> support
> > > on a platform without seeing the supporting evidence that it's the
> right
> > > thing. It is as if everyone who participated in the vote are already
> on the
> > > same page, and somehow I'm the only one that's not. But the only
> argument I
> > > hear so far is that it's technically not straightforward to continue
> the
> > > support, which, coming from Amazon folks, certainly doesn't sound
> > > customer-obsessed.
> > >
> > > -sz
> > >
> > > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 11:37 PM Lin Yuan  wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi Sheng,
> > > >
> > > > Thanks for raising this concern. The problem now is that we cannot
> even
> > > > build MXNet on Windows 7 because the build process requires MS VS
> 2015 w/
> > > > update 3 which is incompatible on Windows 7. This leaves many
> Windows 7
> > > > related open issues on github without any timely response. In my
> opinion,
> > > > having no response to users' request is probably even worse than
> letting
> > > > them know the limitation of OS support.
> > > >
> > > > To minimize the impact to current Windows 7 users, we can provide
> PyPi
> > > > package for Windows 7 in this release but defer the bug fix and
> feature
> > > > enhancement to later Windows OS version. Based on users' feedbacks,
> we
> > > can
> > > > then officially discontinue the Windows 7 support in the next MXNet
> > > > release.
> > > >
> > > > I will appreciate your comments.
> > > >
> > > > Lin
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 1:37 PM Sheng Zha 
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Are any of the votes based on any measure of user impact, if we
> indeed
> > > > > decide not to fix the current problems?
> > > > >
> > > > > -sz
> > > > >
> > > > > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 1:29 PM Hagay Lupesko 
> > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > +1 (non-binding)
> > > > > > Thanks for raising this Lin!
> > > > > > Are you suggesting to do it as part of MXNet 1.3?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 9:14 AM Srivastava, Rohit Kumar <
> > > > > > srivastava@buckeyemail.osu.edu> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > +1
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On 8/29/18, 8:39 AM, "sandeep krishnamurthy" <
> > > > > > sandeep.krishn...@gmail.com>
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > +1 Thanks for bringing this up.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 6:38 AM Marco de Abreu
> > > > > > >  wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > +1
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 1:08 PM kellen sunderland <
> > > > > > > > kellen.sunderl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > +1 (non-binding)
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018, 1:18 AM Anirudh Acharya <
> > > > > > > anirudhk...@gmail.com>
> > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > +1 for discontinuing.
> > > > 

Re: [VOTE] Release MXNet version 1.3.0.RC0

[Pigeon Lucky]

+1

On Sat, 1 Sep 2018, 10:59 Roshani Nagmote, 
wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I would like to propose a vote to release Apache MXNet (incubating) version
> 1.3.0.RC0. Voting will start now (Friday, Aug 31st) and end at 7:00 PM
> PDT, Wednesday, Sept 5th.
>
> Link to release notes:
> https://github.com/apache/incubator-mxnet/releases
>
> Link to release candidate 1.3.0.rc0:
> *https://github.com/apache/incubator-mxnet/releases/tag/1.3.0.rc
> 0*
>
> View this page, click on "Build from Source", and use the source code
> obtained from 1.3.0.rc0 tag:
> https://mxnet.incubator.apache.org/install/index.html
>
> Please remember to TEST first before voting accordingly:
>
> +1 = approve
> +0 = no opinion
> -1 = disapprove (provide reason)
>
> Thanks,
> Roshani
>