Re: The Importance of Being Portable was: Think Java, not Electron!
On Thu, 15 Mar 2018, 22:34 Ryan Cuprak, wrote: > > My two cents, I think we should start a petition for JavaFX. > Why am I thinking that the real petition needed to happen about 5 years ago and involved numbers of people using it?! ;-) > > Note: technically I think we need JavaFX as it brings touch and rich media > support to the platform. It does give us that Webview component which > enables tighter JavaScript/HTML integration > Well as the person who accidentally ended up as the maintainer for the Java GStreamer bindings, the media lib also used in JavaFX, don't get me started on how un-rich the rich media support in JavaFX is! However, touch, etc. is something else. In fact an AWT++ that provided some necessary parts for modern desktop integration, providing just enough hooks for third-party things to link in nicely, would be something I'd like to see in the JDK, or at least fairly standardised. Best wishes, Neil -- Neil C Smith Artist & Technologist www.neilcsmith.net Praxis LIVE - hybrid visual IDE for creative coding - www.praxislive.org
Re: The Importance of Being Portable was: Think Java, not Electron!
We should petition for JavaFX to be donated to Apache. JavaFX is a strong well defined product with an enthusiastic community. Any hesitation in companies adopting it is, aside from the rise of HTML5, connected to uncertainty about Oracle’s direction and roadmap for JavaFX. In other words, what JavaFX has missed is a clear governance structure independent from a specific organization. Yes, moving a product from a company to a foundation is frought with danger and unknown unknowns. It does mean people will need to step up and actually stop talking and start coding. But based on our combined experiences with NetBeans in Apache, I’d say that sharing cost of ownership, while risky, is ultimately the right way to go Gj On Thursday, March 15, 2018, Fabrizio Giudici wrote: > On Thu, 15 Mar 2018 23:45:13 +0100, cowwoc > wrote: > > That would be great. How/where do we petition for it? :) >> > > I doubt a petition would work, as I think this is a pondered management > strategy rather than something due to lack of resources, but if somebody > does it, count me in. > > Perhaps at change.org? > > -- > Fabrizio Giudici - Java Architect @ Tidalwave s.a.s. > "We make Java work. Everywhere." > http://tidalwave.it/fabrizio/blog - fabrizio.giud...@tidalwave.it > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@netbeans.incubator.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@netbeans.incubator.apache.org > > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit: > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists > > > >
Re: The Importance of Being Portable was: Think Java, not Electron!
On Thu, 15 Mar 2018 23:45:13 +0100, cowwoc wrote: That would be great. How/where do we petition for it? :) I doubt a petition would work, as I think this is a pondered management strategy rather than something due to lack of resources, but if somebody does it, count me in. Perhaps at change.org? -- Fabrizio Giudici - Java Architect @ Tidalwave s.a.s. "We make Java work. Everywhere." http://tidalwave.it/fabrizio/blog - fabrizio.giud...@tidalwave.it - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@netbeans.incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@netbeans.incubator.apache.org For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit: https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
Re: The Importance of Being Portable was: Think Java, not Electron!
That would be great. How/where do we petition for it? :) Gili On 2018-03-15 6:34 PM, Ryan Cuprak wrote: My two cents, I think we should start a petition for JavaFX. It probably is a resourcing issue at Oracle with competing groups/managers. The function of user groups/community is to provide feedback to Oracle on things we think they should invest. We shouldn’t frame it as a JavaFX versus JavaScript/HTML because that’s counterproductive. It is a good technology, people are using, and we want it at least part of the platform and not removed if not enhanced. Note: technically I think we need JavaFX as it brings touch and rich media support to the platform. It does give us that Webview component which enables tighter JavaScript/HTML integration (using a derivative of the engine used by Chrome/Safari). -Ryan On Mar 15, 2018, at 3:45 PM, Fabrizio Giudici wrote: On Thu, 15 Mar 2018 20:25:36 +0100, Matthias Bläsing wrote: Hi, the one thing, that annoys the hell out of me with HTML based GUIs is, that everybody reinvents everything, everytime. Matthias, you don't know how much I agree with your statement. And I know some major speakers around - also friend of mine - who think the same. This annoys me so much that sometimes I wonder whether I'd better change job. The problem is: the industry is literally intoxicated by this attitude, and I don't see we can do much to fight it. It is like that for a number of converging reasons, including the fact that, from a business point of view, it's like the classic "dig holes and then fill them", or "break windows and then fix them". Personally I've abandoned Swing time ago, but I find JavaFX pretty good. Now, unfortunately, I'm seeing even the latest "Asterix villages" that kept on developing rich client applications falling down and being pressured to move development of UIs to HTML5. In this perspective, I must say that Oracle's announce to drop JavaFX from the runtime and give it to the community, while it theoretically could be not a major problem for the survival of the technology, it's probably going to effectively kill it, because project managers will interpret the thing like an imminent death - JavaFX finding itself without a corporate sponsor. On my perspective, I can work as technology advocate, architect and supporting consultant for developers, but I'm not the typical professional figure that can influence project managers (who reason with different references than me) to the point of making their minds - and I believe many of us, unfortunately, are in the same bandwagon. So, I don't see a critical mass to change things. -- Fabrizio Giudici - Java Architect @ Tidalwave s.a.s. "We make Java work. Everywhere." http://tidalwave.it/fabrizio/blog - fabrizio.giud...@tidalwave.it - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@netbeans.incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@netbeans.incubator.apache.org For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit: https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@netbeans.incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@netbeans.incubator.apache.org For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit: https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
Re: The Importance of Being Portable was: Think Java, not Electron!
My two cents, I think we should start a petition for JavaFX. It probably is a resourcing issue at Oracle with competing groups/managers. The function of user groups/community is to provide feedback to Oracle on things we think they should invest. We shouldn’t frame it as a JavaFX versus JavaScript/HTML because that’s counterproductive. It is a good technology, people are using, and we want it at least part of the platform and not removed if not enhanced. Note: technically I think we need JavaFX as it brings touch and rich media support to the platform. It does give us that Webview component which enables tighter JavaScript/HTML integration (using a derivative of the engine used by Chrome/Safari). -Ryan > On Mar 15, 2018, at 3:45 PM, Fabrizio Giudici > wrote: > > On Thu, 15 Mar 2018 20:25:36 +0100, Matthias Bläsing > wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> >> the one thing, that annoys the hell out of me with HTML based GUIs is, >> that everybody reinvents everything, everytime. > > Matthias, > > you don't know how much I agree with your statement. And I know some major > speakers around - also friend of mine - who think the same. This annoys me so > much that sometimes I wonder whether I'd better change job. > > The problem is: the industry is literally intoxicated by this attitude, and I > don't see we can do much to fight it. It is like that for a number of > converging reasons, including the fact that, from a business point of view, > it's like the classic "dig holes and then fill them", or "break windows and > then fix them". > > Personally I've abandoned Swing time ago, but I find JavaFX pretty good. Now, > unfortunately, I'm seeing even the latest "Asterix villages" that kept on > developing rich client applications falling down and being pressured to move > development of UIs to HTML5. In this perspective, I must say that Oracle's > announce to drop JavaFX from the runtime and give it to the community, while > it theoretically could be not a major problem for the survival of the > technology, it's probably going to effectively kill it, because project > managers will interpret the thing like an imminent death - JavaFX finding > itself without a corporate sponsor. > > On my perspective, I can work as technology advocate, architect and > supporting consultant for developers, but I'm not the typical professional > figure that can influence project managers (who reason with different > references than me) to the point of making their minds - and I believe many > of us, unfortunately, are in the same bandwagon. So, I don't see a critical > mass to change things. > > -- > Fabrizio Giudici - Java Architect @ Tidalwave s.a.s. > "We make Java work. Everywhere." > http://tidalwave.it/fabrizio/blog - fabrizio.giud...@tidalwave.it > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@netbeans.incubator.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@netbeans.incubator.apache.org > > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit: > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists > > > signature.asc Description: Message signed with OpenPGP
AW: The Importance of Being Portable was: Think Java, not Electron!
Hey Jaroslav, very great Statement and very thx for category 3 😊. I like your thinking. Of Course my category is not that big, I totally agree with you but this category could be better, sooner or later. I think the Topics that I already said AND some other stuff like it is not real known that we can create UIs for NetBeans or in Java, Independent from NetBeans with HTML, CSS and JS. Did you know, that you can create plugins for Photoshop or Illustrator with HTML, JS and CSS too? Pure JS, HTML and CSS no bindings with other languages. It is called Adobe Extension builder: https://www.adobe.com/devnet/creativesuite/cs-extension-builder.html So I didn’t know that, until I found a Google entry for that so maybe this is a PR Problem? Could be, only my opinion. If a lot of more People, knows that possibilty, they will do the same as me, I think. Don’t worry, of Course I will help you to help me to make that stuff for my category better and better. Maybe we can have a skype call one day. Then I can explain my Needs with my NbScratchFile for example. Words to wade again, why I’m not contributing to other platforms like VS Code, because NetBeans is my Development Enviroment, I know it good, not best but I know it. I know that VS Code for example is better for Angular Support or Vue, same as WebStorm or PHPStorm, believe me, they are better, NetBeans is lack of lots of Features which the others already have. I have a big list of tickets that I have to migrate to Jira and a lot that is not written yet, but I will make NetBeans better and better and if I have a better possibility to create UIs with my Technology, I swear I will create more and more. It took me not that Long to create the NbScratchFile v2 plugin with the Knockout UI, because it was very easy. The other part was the bindin to Java, that was also ok. When I tried to create the same with Swing or JavaFX, I know that I will be slower and find more Problems to solve than with my stuff. Cheers Chris Von: Jaroslav Tulach Gesendet: Donnerstag, 15. März 2018 20:03 An: Apache NetBeans Betreff: The Importance of Being Portable was: Think Java, not Electron! Hello guys, thanks again for all your replies. Rather than answering them one by one I'd like to provide following "classification summary". Looks like there are three major streams of opinions: 1. Experienced Swing/FX developers willing/being forced to move closer to Web 2. Experienced Swing/FX developers (sort of) OK with current state 3. Experienced Web developers wishing to code for NetBeans with their technology I belong into the category #1 - while I like Swing and I see its value for development of desktop applications, I know that these days projects don't start with desktop being the primary target. Everyone wants to get to cloud, and the remaining ones want to get mobile. None of that can be done with Swing. Even Zoran admits that he'd like to write his application in a style that would allow him to run it from a web site as well as NetBeans. That (in my opinion) rules Swing out and that is the reason why I designed HTML/Java API & co. The category #3 isn't huge. Why would somebody who have seen "the future" looked back? Why would a Java developer tried to learn COBOL? In spite of that we have one active voice among us - Christian. I am thankful for having him around and I wish him to survive our attacks against JavaScript and HTML well. If we want to move forward with support of HTML(/Java) in NetBeans we need his knowledge of contemporary build and coding practices used by the web developers. The category #2 is surprisingly (to me) huge (I am counting suggestions to use SWT or OpenGL here as well), but there is a truth in such position: Swing and JavaFX are here and they aren't going away. If they work for you, there is no reason to search for something else. They will always continue to work. Knowing the categories, I'd like to offer something to each of you with the goal to keep you motivated to work with us towards a goal you can agree to: The NetBeans Platform roots are built around Swing - e.g. #2 category - and I am 100% sure we want to keep those roots untouched. If you are happy with NetBeans Platform as it is, don't worry - it will continue to work for you. We have a long time track of keeping backward compatibility while moving the system forward (for example the HTML/Java is already in and nothing bad happened), so we can promise that your Swing/FX usecase isn't going to be affected. I am dedicated to move more and more HTML based UI into the system. I have to: I am asked to develop web based solutions and I don't want to write my code twice. I want to write code that works in the web as well as in NetBeans. I am looking at that from a category #1 perspective - e.g. I want Java oriented tools most of the time. On the other hand I understand the desire of Christian to i
AW: The Importance of Being Portable was: Think Java, not Electron!
Hey Matthias, I totally agree with you. In no language you have that lot of Frameworks, toolkits, Building Systems etc. pp as in JS. I know what you feel. But hey it is up to you. Take a look into some Frameworks, take the right for your Needs. Maybe it is you like Google ok take angular or you like Facebook ok take react or take vue or whatever. Everything has pros and cons. I tried a lot. Liek grunt first, then gulp, now I’m with webpack and atm no Need to move to another. As I decided to check out what are those Frameworks called knockout, Backbone or angular, I googled and find some comparisons like easy for beginners, or hard or from which Company. I know this is Kind of objective but as I said I’ve Chosen angularjs because it is from Google and not knockout. Because I wanted to swtich from C# .net and asp.net mvc. And angualrjs was easy from the beginning, knockout not. So I decided and it was good, for me. I don’t use react when I don’t have to, because I don’t like JSX. Yes objective too, because I don’t like that mixed JS with HTML but this is my opinion. So I was waiting for Angular and I like it with TS, it works like a charm. Now Vue came into it, it was there? No Company, only vue and a community. It Looks easy, simple so I tried it and it is nice. I’ve never tried React, Backbone or ember or whatever. Take a second to decide, if you have to, what you want to use and for what. No Framework is the holy grail for everything. Or taka the good old jQuery, if you still want it and use it with bootstrap or foundation or whatever and make your UI by your own with the hlp of some toolkits. My two Cents. Von: Matthias Bläsing Gesendet: Donnerstag, 15. März 2018 20:25 An: dev@netbeans.incubator.apache.org Betreff: Re: The Importance of Being Portable was: Think Java, not Electron! Hi, the one thing, that annoys the hell out of me with HTML based GUIs is, that everybody reinvents everything, everytime. >From my perspective the best part of Swing is, that it is boring and just works. I need a Menu? Ok its there. I need a basic layout, its there, I need a toolbar. Its there. With HTML I have literally have to get to basics everytime I do something. This is like coding all java GUIs with Java2D. Noone does this. So there are a gazillion of applications, which all feel different, are handled different and all reinvent the wheel. There are a few java script frameworks, that reserve, that they solved the problem, but they are hyped for one or two years and next year another hyped framework appears. _This_ is the problem. The moment you coded something it is not current anymore. So the next flamewar will be: * which renderer to choose * which JS framework * which design * which component framework And one year later someone will come around: * why did you not choose framework A? * lets rewrite the GUI with component framework B! * I like way C much better - your code looks like crap! Lets change everything! I want components, that survive > 5 years, without the need to rebuild everything. You find a web component, that is capable of rendering HTML5 (with all bells and whistles), I'm ok with intergrating it, but religiously changing working code, I'm not ok with. before the component is integrated there are big questions: * how stable is the multiplatform development for that component? * who maintains the component? * are they really more committed to the component itself, than oracle is to Swing? I'll observe what will happen here in regards to this, but won't put energy into working for that. Matthias - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@netbeans.incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@netbeans.incubator.apache.org For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit: https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
Re: The Importance of Being Portable was: Think Java, not Electron!
On Thu, 15 Mar 2018 20:25:36 +0100, Matthias Bläsing wrote: Hi, the one thing, that annoys the hell out of me with HTML based GUIs is, that everybody reinvents everything, everytime. Matthias, you don't know how much I agree with your statement. And I know some major speakers around - also friend of mine - who think the same. This annoys me so much that sometimes I wonder whether I'd better change job. The problem is: the industry is literally intoxicated by this attitude, and I don't see we can do much to fight it. It is like that for a number of converging reasons, including the fact that, from a business point of view, it's like the classic "dig holes and then fill them", or "break windows and then fix them". Personally I've abandoned Swing time ago, but I find JavaFX pretty good. Now, unfortunately, I'm seeing even the latest "Asterix villages" that kept on developing rich client applications falling down and being pressured to move development of UIs to HTML5. In this perspective, I must say that Oracle's announce to drop JavaFX from the runtime and give it to the community, while it theoretically could be not a major problem for the survival of the technology, it's probably going to effectively kill it, because project managers will interpret the thing like an imminent death - JavaFX finding itself without a corporate sponsor. On my perspective, I can work as technology advocate, architect and supporting consultant for developers, but I'm not the typical professional figure that can influence project managers (who reason with different references than me) to the point of making their minds - and I believe many of us, unfortunately, are in the same bandwagon. So, I don't see a critical mass to change things. -- Fabrizio Giudici - Java Architect @ Tidalwave s.a.s. "We make Java work. Everywhere." http://tidalwave.it/fabrizio/blog - fabrizio.giud...@tidalwave.it - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@netbeans.incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@netbeans.incubator.apache.org For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit: https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
Re: The Importance of Being Portable was: Think Java, not Electron!
Hi, the one thing, that annoys the hell out of me with HTML based GUIs is, that everybody reinvents everything, everytime. >From my perspective the best part of Swing is, that it is boring and just works. I need a Menu? Ok its there. I need a basic layout, its there, I need a toolbar. Its there. With HTML I have literally have to get to basics everytime I do something. This is like coding all java GUIs with Java2D. Noone does this. So there are a gazillion of applications, which all feel different, are handled different and all reinvent the wheel. There are a few java script frameworks, that reserve, that they solved the problem, but they are hyped for one or two years and next year another hyped framework appears. _This_ is the problem. The moment you coded something it is not current anymore. So the next flamewar will be: * which renderer to choose * which JS framework * which design * which component framework And one year later someone will come around: * why did you not choose framework A? * lets rewrite the GUI with component framework B! * I like way C much better - your code looks like crap! Lets change everything! I want components, that survive > 5 years, without the need to rebuild everything. You find a web component, that is capable of rendering HTML5 (with all bells and whistles), I'm ok with intergrating it, but religiously changing working code, I'm not ok with. before the component is integrated there are big questions: * how stable is the multiplatform development for that component? * who maintains the component? * are they really more committed to the component itself, than oracle is to Swing? I'll observe what will happen here in regards to this, but won't put energy into working for that. Matthias - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@netbeans.incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@netbeans.incubator.apache.org For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit: https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
The Importance of Being Portable was: Think Java, not Electron!
Hello guys, thanks again for all your replies. Rather than answering them one by one I'd like to provide following "classification summary". Looks like there are three major streams of opinions: 1. Experienced Swing/FX developers willing/being forced to move closer to Web 2. Experienced Swing/FX developers (sort of) OK with current state 3. Experienced Web developers wishing to code for NetBeans with their technology I belong into the category #1 - while I like Swing and I see its value for development of desktop applications, I know that these days projects don't start with desktop being the primary target. Everyone wants to get to cloud, and the remaining ones want to get mobile. None of that can be done with Swing. Even Zoran admits that he'd like to write his application in a style that would allow him to run it from a web site as well as NetBeans. That (in my opinion) rules Swing out and that is the reason why I designed HTML/Java API & co. The category #3 isn't huge. Why would somebody who have seen "the future" looked back? Why would a Java developer tried to learn COBOL? In spite of that we have one active voice among us - Christian. I am thankful for having him around and I wish him to survive our attacks against JavaScript and HTML well. If we want to move forward with support of HTML(/Java) in NetBeans we need his knowledge of contemporary build and coding practices used by the web developers. The category #2 is surprisingly (to me) huge (I am counting suggestions to use SWT or OpenGL here as well), but there is a truth in such position: Swing and JavaFX are here and they aren't going away. If they work for you, there is no reason to search for something else. They will always continue to work. Knowing the categories, I'd like to offer something to each of you with the goal to keep you motivated to work with us towards a goal you can agree to: The NetBeans Platform roots are built around Swing - e.g. #2 category - and I am 100% sure we want to keep those roots untouched. If you are happy with NetBeans Platform as it is, don't worry - it will continue to work for you. We have a long time track of keeping backward compatibility while moving the system forward (for example the HTML/Java is already in and nothing bad happened), so we can promise that your Swing/FX usecase isn't going to be affected. I am dedicated to move more and more HTML based UI into the system. I have to: I am asked to develop web based solutions and I don't want to write my code twice. I want to write code that works in the web as well as in NetBeans. I am looking at that from a category #1 perspective - e.g. I want Java oriented tools most of the time. On the other hand I understand the desire of Christian to improve the #3 point of view. That shall happen as well: make sure web developers can extend NetBeans without major problems. Hopefully Christian will be able to help with that. Geertjan asked for a vision for the NetBeans Platform, here is one: ideally I want to have a replacement of core.windows module (which organizes Swing based TopComponent, menu and toolbars in a Swing JFrame) with core.htmlwindows reimplementation (that would show a browser and rendered everything - menu, toolbar, components - via browser pipeline). Of course such module would be fully optional. Right now we can mix Swing and HTML based UI next to each other in a JFrame context, with the above module the same shall be possible[1] in an browser-like renderer. It is a long term vision, but if there is enough will, it is not unrealistic to achieve it. In any case, thanks for a lively and inspiring discussion we had so far. -jt [1] There was a request to render Swing in HTML. I am glad to say that I have a Graphics that renders in HTML and I managed to render Visual Library scene this way. The result was 1:1 and the branch of my experiment is here: https://github.com/apache/incubator-netbeans/compare/master...JaroslavTulach:jtulach/PortableVisualLibrary?expand=1 - help with improving the Graphics context to render JButton (for example) is more than welcomed.