Re: [OSM-dev] Modeling OSM sidewalk data

[Oleksiy Muzalyev]

On 12.07.2016 11:24, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

Il giorno 12 lug 2016, alle ore 11:15, Komяpa  ha scritto:

Both ways are only applicable to cities with blocky structure.
In ex-USSR, architecture of cities is different, and footways / sidewalks graph 
is more complicated than a replica of roads for cars, so all the sidewalks have 
to be drawn separately.


There are sidewalks (alongside roads) and other footpaths, just like everywhere 
else (but in different proportions). You can decide to draw the sidewalks 
separately or not (like anywhere else), while you have in any case to draw the 
independent footways with their own geometry.

cheers,
Martin

To understand an architecture of a city, especially of a sidewalks 
system, we should realize that it was formed to a large degree by the 
auto industry lobbying [1]. Obviously, in North America and Western 
Europe this process began several decades earlier than in Eastern 
Europe, so sidewalks and footpaths system is indeed somewhat different.



However, an emerging global trend of Walkable Development is starting to 
transform cities once again [2].



[1] "Creeps and Weirdos: the auto industry agenda for keeping you on 
four wheels"


http://www.preventioninstitute.org/about-us/lp/800-creeps-and-weirdos-the-auto-industry-agenda-for-keeping-you-on-four-wheels.html

[2] KC Conspiracy Theorists: Walkable Development Will “Devastate” Auto 
Giants


http://usa.streetsblog.org/2016/05/24/kc-conspiracy-theorists-walkable-development-will-devastate-auto-giants/


Best regards,

Oleksiy



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Re: [OSM-dev] Modeling OSM sidewalk data

[Paul Norman]

On 7/12/2016 3:44 AM, Andy Townsend wrote:

On 12/07/2016 08:42, Paul Norman wrote:

Rather than having sidewalk data available in a column, I instead with 
a different highway value for "this road has a usable sidewalk".  We 
already have a plethora of highway values, so the extra work to 
support isn't high, and has the advantage that you don't need to mess 
about with the schema (though you do need to reload the database) if 
anything changes:


https://github.com/SomeoneElseOSM/SomeoneElse-style/blob/master/style.lua#L258 



Don't you quickly start needing to have many many values for your 
highway column as you combine sidewalks, link status, cycleways, etc?


For me a sidewalk column is much easier to do than expand the highway 
class values and it avoids users downstream of me having to deal with 
sidewalks if they're not using them in their analysis or rendering.


My initial goal was to be able to render sidewalks on unclassified and 
tertiary roads.  Note that there are more values in that list than 
you're probably expecting - that was what was found to be in the data 
when I looked locally. 


I also see you're treating cycleways as sidewalks. I'm planning on 
handling them separately, which is another reason I'm using more columns.


From the readme of https://github.com/ClearTables/ClearTables it 
sounds like you're trying to process OSM data as it actually exists, 
not "as it ought to be tagged", which means you might have to do 
something "clever" to detect poorly mapped examples like the one 
above, perhaps based on proximity.  I'd be interested to see what you 
come up with...


I'm dealing with "tagging as it exists", which is slightly different 
than "data as it exists", so I don't have to worry about data errors 
like those disconnected ways. This is partially due to technical 
constraints, but even without them I'm not sure if I'd handle that case.


It's also going to a PostGIS database so there's no notion of if two 
linestrings are connected, only if they're touching.


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Re: [OSM-dev] Modeling OSM sidewalk data

[Paul Norman]

On 7/12/2016 2:15 AM, Komяpa wrote:


Both ways are only applicable to cities with blocky structure.
In ex-USSR, architecture of cities is different, and footways / 
sidewalks graph is more complicated than a replica of roads for cars, 
so all the sidewalks have to be drawn separately.


Yes, I should of been clearer, sidewalks in this context are highways 
tagged with a sidewalk=* tag.


It does bring up the question of how to handle something like 
highway=footway sidewalk=right - a footway with a sidewalk.


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Re: [OSM-dev] Modeling OSM sidewalk data

[Andy Townsend]

On 12/07/2016 08:42, Paul Norman wrote:
Does anyone have experience consuming OSM sidewalk data and have 
thoughts about what would be better to work with? 


Rather than having sidewalk data available in a column, I instead with a 
different highway value for "this road has a usable sidewalk".  We 
already have a plethora of highway values, so the extra work to support 
isn't high, and has the advantage that you don't need to mess about with 
the schema (though you do need to reload the database) if anything changes:


https://github.com/SomeoneElseOSM/SomeoneElse-style/blob/master/style.lua#L258

My initial goal was to be able to render sidewalks on unclassified and 
tertiary roads.  Note that there are more values in that list than 
you're probably expecting - that was what was found to be in the data 
when I looked locally.  Here's a diary entry, with a picture of what 
things look like


http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/SomeoneElse/diary/38136

(though I've tidied up the rendering a bit since then).

To address Komяpa's point, it's absolutely true that mapping sidewalks 
as separate ways is something that you need to consider in some cases 
(though I'd dispute that it is "only applicable to cities with a blocky 
structure" - sidewalk=both et al mostly work well in the UK).  In some 
places (e.g. in my experience Helsinki) sidewalks meander off on their 
own and then rejoin roads, and separate mapping makes sense.  Also, if 
you're mapping dropped kerbs etc. for wheelchair use then it's a lot 
easier to map sidewalks separately.


Unfortunately, the biggest problem with "sidewalks mapped as separate 
ways" is that they sometimes tend not to be done very well - often the 
mappers produce something that looks nice on a printed map but doesn't 
represent the topology (by no means always, but often enough to be an 
issue).  For example (not far from Komяpa's link) I very much doubt that 
this shows a correct foot route between the highlighted places:


https://www.openstreetmap.org/directions?engine=graphhopper_foot=53.94458%2C27.72384%3B53.94459%2C27.72419#map=19/53.94428/27.72472

The road that these are the sidewalks of 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/281594594 has no sidewalk information 
(though in this case, being a living_street, you should be safe walking 
along the middle of the road).


From the readme of https://github.com/ClearTables/ClearTables it sounds 
like you're trying to process OSM data as it actually exists, not "as it 
ought to be tagged", which means you might have to do something "clever" 
to detect poorly mapped examples like the one above, perhaps based on 
proximity.  I'd be interested to see what you come up with...


Best Regards,

Andy



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Re: [OSM-dev] Modeling OSM sidewalk data

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Il giorno 12 lug 2016, alle ore 11:15, Komяpa  ha scritto:
> 
> Both ways are only applicable to cities with blocky structure.
> In ex-USSR, architecture of cities is different, and footways / sidewalks 
> graph is more complicated than a replica of roads for cars, so all the 
> sidewalks have to be drawn separately.


There are sidewalks (alongside roads) and other footpaths, just like everywhere 
else (but in different proportions). You can decide to draw the sidewalks 
separately or not (like anywhere else), while you have in any case to draw the 
independent footways with their own geometry.

cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [OSM-dev] Modeling OSM sidewalk data

[Komяpa]

Hi Paul,

Both ways are only applicable to cities with blocky structure.
In ex-USSR, architecture of cities is different, and footways / sidewalks
graph is more complicated than a replica of roads for cars, so all the
sidewalks have to be drawn separately.

See, for instance, https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/53.9446/27.7170

вт, 12 июл. 2016 г. в 10:45, Paul Norman :

> I'm working on putting OSM sidewalk data into PostgreSQL with
> ClearTables (https://github.com/ClearTables/ClearTables/issues/39) and
> looking at two different ways, and wondering if anyone has experience
> modeling it.
>
> There are two obvious options
>
> 1. Have a sidewalk column with an enum type with both/left/right/neither
>
> 2. Have sidewalk_left and sidewalk_right boolean columns
>
> I can see advantages and disadvantages to both.
>
> Does anyone have experience consuming OSM sidewalk data and have
> thoughts about what would be better to work with?
>
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[OSM-dev] Modeling OSM sidewalk data

[Paul Norman]

I'm working on putting OSM sidewalk data into PostgreSQL with 
ClearTables (https://github.com/ClearTables/ClearTables/issues/39) and 
looking at two different ways, and wondering if anyone has experience 
modeling it.


There are two obvious options

1. Have a sidewalk column with an enum type with both/left/right/neither

2. Have sidewalk_left and sidewalk_right boolean columns

I can see advantages and disadvantages to both.

Does anyone have experience consuming OSM sidewalk data and have 
thoughts about what would be better to work with?


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