Re: [dev] [dwm] nicer web

2011-11-06 Thread Bjartur Thorlacius 
On 11/6/11, hiro <23h...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Sorry, I must have mixed stuff up then.
Blame the notion of everything 'net being "web stuff". Even drawing APIs.

Re: [dev] [dwm] nicer web

2011-11-06 Thread hiro 
> What do graphics have to do with limiting client-server file transfer
> protocols? Or what does "GL" stand for in this context? You realize
> WebGL is an extension of JavaScript, not having anything to do with
> HTTP, right?

Sorry, I must have mixed stuff up then.

Re: [dev] [dwm] nicer web

2011-11-05 Thread Bjartur Thorlacius 
On 11/5/11, hiro <23h...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Well, it doesn't have GL support, so it's more or less usable.
>
What do graphics have to do with limiting client-server file transfer
protocols? Or what does "GL" stand for in this context? You realize
WebGL is an extension of JavaScript, not having anything to do with
HTTP, right?

Re: [dev] [dwm] nicer web

2011-11-05 Thread hiro 
Well, it doesn't have GL support, so it's more or less usable.

On Sat, Nov 5, 2011 at 14:25, Bjartur Thorlacius  wrote:
>> I can't access those websites using Gopher. Please fix.
> In what world is Gopher a good protocol? It's fkn ambiguous.
>
>

Re: [dev] [dwm] nicer web

2011-11-05 Thread Bjartur Thorlacius 
> I can't access those websites using Gopher. Please fix.
In what world is Gopher a good protocol? It's fkn ambiguous.

Re: [dev] [dwm] nicer web (was: 2000 SLOC)

2011-11-03 Thread Bjartur Thorlacius 
On 11/3/11, Kai Hendry  wrote:
> I'd prefer if you mocked me. http://geekout.org.uk/ or
> http://hendry.iki.fi/ or http://greptweet.com/ ... I'll listen to your
> criticisms!
>
What does the following excerpt from http://geekout.org.uk/ mean?



Poland

Re: [dev] [dwm] nicer web

2011-11-03 Thread Christoph Lohmann 
Greetings.

Kai Hendry wrote:
> On 3 November 2011 13:59, Kurt H Maier  wrote:
>> Absolutely correct.  The problem is cultural, not technical, and no
>> amount of standards revision will help.
> 
> Ok we've formed an elitist enclave without those "magazine-trained
> designers"... so now what?
> 
> Spend our days taking the piss out of them? ;)
> 
> 
> I'd prefer if you mocked me. http://geekout.org.uk/ or
> http://hendry.iki.fi/ or http://greptweet.com/ ... I'll listen to your
> criticisms!

I can't access those websites using Gopher. Please fix.


Sincerely,

Christoph Lohmann

Re: [dev] [dwm] nicer web (was: 2000 SLOC)

2011-11-03 Thread Bryan Bennett 
I'm simply saying that a lot of web designer types are now
beginning to understand that the way we're looking at the
web is actually a valid viewpoint.

Re: [dev] [dwm] nicer web (was: 2000 SLOC)

2011-11-03 Thread Kai Hendry 
On 3 November 2011 13:59, Kurt H Maier  wrote:
> Absolutely correct.  The problem is cultural, not technical, and no
> amount of standards revision will help.

Ok we've formed an elitist enclave without those "magazine-trained
designers"... so now what?

Spend our days taking the piss out of them? ;)


I'd prefer if you mocked me. http://geekout.org.uk/ or
http://hendry.iki.fi/ or http://greptweet.com/ ... I'll listen to your
criticisms!

WDYT of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-i0hat7pdpk ?


And who cares what Universities teach? http://www.cs.helsinki.fi
forced Java down my throat, so go figure.

Re: [dev] [dwm] nicer web (was: 2000 SLOC)

2011-11-03 Thread Bryan Bennett 
In my experience, this is getting better. We're now seeing universities
with web media degrees or focuses, which imparts this understanding
of data structure first and style later. It's not perfect, but it's better than
it was in 1998. For instance, they still teach UA sniffing and similar
techniques to 'target' specific platforms, which is a broken way of
looking at things. Allowing users to request specific features is the
only way to truly fix this problem.

Re: [dev] [dwm] nicer web (was: 2000 SLOC)

2011-11-03 Thread Kurt H Maier 
On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 9:49 AM, Bryan Bennett  wrote:
> This is the crux of the problem. Couldn't have expressed the issue
> better myself.
> We need to train designers and developers to truly separate content
> from presentation
> and then impart meaningful hierarchy upon the actual data. This will mean that
> users can specify that we don't want a server side stylesheet and
> allow the hierarchy
> to come through clearly.

Absolutely correct.  The problem is cultural, not technical, and no
amount of standards revision will help.


-- 
# Kurt H Maier

Re: [dev] [dwm] nicer web (was: 2000 SLOC)

2011-11-03 Thread Bryan Bennett 
On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 8:57 AM, Stephen Paul Weber
 wrote:
> Perhaps you love the WHATWG enough to miss the point: we keep hiring
> magazine-trained designers to build websites.  Standards can't fix that.

This is the crux of the problem. Couldn't have expressed the issue
better myself.
We need to train designers and developers to truly separate content
from presentation
and then impart meaningful hierarchy upon the actual data. This will mean that
users can specify that we don't want a server side stylesheet and
allow the hierarchy
to come through clearly.

Re: [dev] [dwm] nicer web (was: 2000 SLOC)

2011-11-03 Thread Stephen Paul Weber 

Somebody claiming to be Kai Hendry wrote:

As someone who has been a bit of WHATWG/HTML5 fan boy over the years,
I find the latest round of dev list Web moaning a little naive to say
the least. Unless you guys are trying to be funny or sarcastic (aka
lowest form of wit). Sometimes it's hard to tell. :)


I think maybe you're the one that's naive. 90% of the HTML/CSS specs is 
awesome, but that doesn't prevent people from doing terrible things with 
them, and it never will.  You cannot design an environment where morons 
won't try to deliver you broken content to try to maximize what they want at 
your expense.


Perhaps you love the WHATWG enough to miss the point: we keep hiring 
magazine-trained designers to build websites.  Standards can't fix that.


--
Stephen Paul Weber, @singpolyma
See  for how I prefer to be contacted
edition right joseph

Re: [dev] [dwm] nicer web (was: 2000 SLOC)

2011-11-03 Thread Kai Hendry 
As someone who has been a bit of WHATWG/HTML5 fan boy over the years,
I find the latest round of dev list Web moaning a little naive to say
the least. Unless you guys are trying to be funny or sarcastic (aka
lowest form of wit). Sometimes it's hard to tell. :)

If you are moaning about "Web designers", than write some Web
applications that suck less.

Web technologies could be a LOT worse.
https://plus.google.com/107429617152575897589/posts/2S1ETVb5SKL

I know most of you want to tear it down and start again, but really
you should be working on making it suck less by showing some code.

ok thx bye

Re: [dev] [dwm] nicer web (was: 2000 SLOC)

2011-11-03 Thread Manolo Martínez 
On 11/03/11 at 09:14am, Nick wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 03, 2011 at 10:03:20AM +0100, Pierre Chapuis wrote:

> the technology. It's the people who are charged with "web
> design" in our brand obsessed world. Making the web
> increasingly more difficult to use and more unpleasant for
> us all. And I don't see this changing any time soon.
> 
Brand obsession, and helping create the illusion for the end user that she 
needs ever more
powerful hardware just to check her e-mail.
--

Re: [dev] [dwm] nicer web (was: 2000 SLOC)

2011-11-03 Thread Nick 
On Thu, Nov 03, 2011 at 10:03:20AM +0100, Pierre Chapuis wrote:
> I would say the closest thing to that currently on the
> Web is Atom. I could imagine a Web of content where text documents
> are written in Markdown and structured data is Atom or something
> similar built on JSON.

Indeed. Or RDF/Turtle. However, the issue is absolutely not
the technology. It's the people who are charged with "web
design" in our brand obsessed world. Making the web
increasingly more difficult to use and more unpleasant for
us all. And I don't see this changing any time soon.