Re: [b2g] Where the f*&* is app manager?
On Tuesday 2014-08-19 00:21 +0200, Jan Keromnes wrote: > Another point I'd like to bring up is that Nightly remains a playground for > (sane) experiments. It's where new code arrives daily (well, nightly) right > after it's been reviewed and tested. Sadly, this doesn't prevent things > from breaking, or just not working right, and Nightly is another layer to > keep Firefox safe. It's not something reliable you can expect to do stable, > productive work on. True, it does receive a lot of bug fixes, but it's also > where all the nastiest bugs and regressions happen before we can catch > them. Thanks a lot for being one of our test pilots, helping us catch the > problems before the code rolls over to stable and to millions of trusting > users, but judging from your remarks maybe Nightly is not the best > experience you can have of Firefox. Jonas said this already, but I'd like to say it more clearly: the above is not how we should respond to bugs being reported in nightly. The reason we get useful feedback from Nightly is because we have people using it. In order to keep people using it, we need to keep it to a reasonably decent standard of quality; enough that people who are ok living a bit on the edge *can* expect to be stable enough for them. If we lower the standard of quality, we'll push away (quickly!) some users and get fewer bugs (and not get the bugs that the more picky users will file). If we increase it, we'll (slowly!) gain more users. The more often we give responses like the above rather than backing out or fixing patches that cause bad regressions, the fewer users we'll have on nightly, and the less value we'll have from having patches on nightly at all. And it's rather easier to lose users when nightly becomes unstable than gain them when it becomes stable again. -David -- π L. David Baron http://dbaron.org/ π π’ Mozilla https://www.mozilla.org/ π Before I built a wall I'd ask to know What I was walling in or walling out, And to whom I was like to give offense. - Robert Frost, Mending Wall (1914) signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ dev-b2g mailing list dev-b2g@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-b2g
Re: [b2g] Where the f*&* is app manager?
On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 3:21 PM, Jan Keromnes wrote: > Another point I'd like to bring up is that Nightly remains a playground for > (sane) experiments. It's where new code arrives daily (well, nightly) right > after it's been reviewed and tested. Sadly, this doesn't prevent things from > breaking, or just not working right, and Nightly is another layer to keep > Firefox safe. It's not something reliable you can expect to do stable, > productive work on. True, it does receive a lot of bug fixes, but it's also > where all the nastiest bugs and regressions happen before we can catch them. > Thanks a lot for being one of our test pilots, helping us catch the problems > before the code rolls over to stable and to millions of trusting users, but > judging from your remarks maybe Nightly is not the best experience you can > have of Firefox. While I agree that Nighly is going to see breakage from time to time, we should think of it as a playground. It's good that we have lots of people using it as their day-to-day browser. It's even better when developers are using it as their day-to-day developer tool. This means that we get feedback much quicker when we accidentally break something. And it's dramatically easier to fix something that you broke a day ago, than something that you broke a 6 weeks ago. So we should definitely make sure to try not disrupt people's work flow. The fact that we have nightly users is something that is a huge advantage to us, and something that we should nurture. It generally seems like you guys did the right thing here. The code landed turned off by default, it was turned off when it seemed mature enough to experiment with, the old code was left in the tree, and you did a fair amount of messaging. I think only a relatively minor mistake was made, which was to effectively force people to use it by hiding the old tool. The fact that you could still access it through an about: URL wasn't really helpful to most users who had no idea that was the case. This is the price of building good software. People get upset when they lose it and so you have to take more care when rolling out the replacement. Both to make sure that the replacement is awesome, and to make sure that the transition is pleasant. On the flip side. When things do break, intentionally or accidentally, please be civil about it. This thread has had way too... rough... language. We're all on the same side trying to make FirefoxOS more awesome. / Jonas ___ dev-b2g mailing list dev-b2g@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-b2g
Re: [b2g] Where the f*&* is app manager?
Hi Adrian, Again thank you for taking the time to voice your concerns. The pain points you identify are important to us and we'll really try to do better next time. We don't expect you to drop what you're working on to spend time debugging our things, and we're striving to keep you happy doing great apps. Sorry if we failed you on that regard. But to be honest, the change was not unannounced, and was not without transition. Clearly it could have gone a lot smoother (I do like Marek's suggestion to add a hint in the App Manager to try out the new IDE) but as soon as the WebIDE code landed (disabled by default, on June 23) we published about it on our blog: https://hacks.mozilla.org/2014/06/webide-lands-in-nightly/ We then tried to be as vocal as possible about it, reposting it, doing live demos, etc. We explained how to try it out to whoever was listening. It even stayed on Hacker News' front page for a while, which allowed us to receive heartening user feedback like: - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7932994 (still the top comment on the hacker news entry) - https://twitter.com/steveklabnik/status/481149771793854465 - https://twitter.com/steveklabnik/status/481149682811674624 Maybe we missed a few channels, and if you have ideas on how we could have communicated better about this, please let us know. Please also keep in mind that we're a small team, and we prefer to fix bugs and develop useful features rather than spend a lot of time communicating. My take on it is that we could have been more vocal about this on our mailing lists. Another point I'd like to bring up is that Nightly remains a playground for (sane) experiments. It's where new code arrives daily (well, nightly) right after it's been reviewed and tested. Sadly, this doesn't prevent things from breaking, or just not working right, and Nightly is another layer to keep Firefox safe. It's not something reliable you can expect to do stable, productive work on. True, it does receive a lot of bug fixes, but it's also where all the nastiest bugs and regressions happen before we can catch them. Thanks a lot for being one of our test pilots, helping us catch the problems before the code rolls over to stable and to millions of trusting users, but judging from your remarks maybe Nightly is not the best experience you can have of Firefox. Lastly, we often ask users to file bugs, because it's the most effective way to register problems and get them fixed. I understand that bugzilla is not the user-friendliest tool, and that many people don't have the time to learn it / be bothered. That's why we also take a lot of feedback from whichever channels our users find easier to use, and we then file bugs for them. It's very time consuming, but it allows us to access feedback we normally couldn't. We follow mailing lists, irc, hacker news, stack overflow, google+, twitter, probably many other channels I don't even know about, and we actively search for new and better ways to understand what's bothering you about our tools and how to make your life easier. One of the latest examples I discovered is a uservoice page allowing users to upvote the ideas they'd most love to see in Firefox DevTools: https://ffdevtools.uservoice.com/forums/246087-firefox-developer-tools-ideas, and I thought that was a pretty good idea. Thanks for bearing with us through the hurdles of great ideas and big mistakes! Jan On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 9:37 PM, Adrian Custer wrote: > On 8/18/14 11:03 AM, Julien Wajsberg wrote:> > > Just a note that you're all using Nightly here. Nightly is where > > no-transition changes happen, so that we can test new things in the > > wild. And sometimes we disable them after some days, or when it goes > > to aurora, or when it goes to beta. > > > > So, yeah, we used to say to use Nightly for Firefox OS development > > (because this is how we keep up with the changes) but obviously this > > also comes with such disagreements. > > > > To enable/disable webide, you can have a look to about:config, and > > look for the pref "devtools.webide.enabled". > > > > Please report anything that you dislikes about WebIDE by filing bugs, > > before or instead of disabling it. That's basically your duty when > > using Nightly :) > > > > Maybe we should have a separate pref to enable/disable App manager so > > that we can have both side by side? My fear is that users don't use > > WebIDE at all once they disable it... > > > > > > - -- > > Julien > > On 8/18/14 2:49 PM, Paul Rouget wrote:> Marek Raida wrote: > >> Well, I agree heartily on this. We need ate least some level of > stability, this is too turbulent... > > > > ... stability, in Firefox Nightly? > > > > Please file bugs if WebIDE doesn't meet your requirements. > > > >> Much approach better would be leave AppManager as as - probably add > some hint that from now one try IDE - but remove it sounds bad practice to > me... > > > > You can always access the app manager by loading about:app-manager. > > > > H
Re: [b2g] Where the f*&* is app manager?
Adrian Custer wrote: > Hey WebIDE and App-Manager developers, > > do you really not understand why it was such a bad idea to *replace* > the menu entry for App Manager rather than *add* a new entry for > WebIDE? No. I understand. And I even agree. Damn... all this river of text when you could just have filed a bug, like everybody does: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1055244 Patch attached. > That our points of view differ so dramatically on this issue > suggests a need to address our differences. > > I am having a hard time figuring out your point of view. You are > apparently writing tools for us to use to write great Firefox OS > apps and make the platform kick a**. However, you do not seem > focused on our needs. First, you make a change with little concern > for our workflow and day to day work. Then, when faced with push > back like this thread, your instincts are to answer with > self-justification rather than trying to figure out what the user > need actually was and why friction arose. > > The transition could have been a delight. You could have announced > the tool, given us access to it, helped us discover and learn to use > it and listened to feedback. All the while we would have been > productive with whichever tool was working for us. Instead, in using > a no-transition approach, you were essentially saying "Hey, it > doesn't matter that your in the middle of something potentially > complicated like muddling your way through derivatives of > cartographic projections, today, before you do anything else, you > have to drop everything and learn to use our new tool just to get > your code running on your device." From my point of view, that lacks > respect. REALLY. I did not like it. > > The puzzling thing is that your approach was totally, completely, > absolutely unnecessary. Had it been neccessary, and accompanied by > an 'Sorry folks but we are having to do a no-transition upgrade on > the app tool that will land next week. Find out more ...' one could > have understood. But it turns out it was totally unnecessary and it > caused a few hours of confusion, angst, failed reversion attempts > and pain until I re-discovered the magic 'about:app-manager' URL. > > So, you all need to decide on your priority: is it writing your tool > or helping Firefox OS developers get work done? From that decision, > lots will follow naturally. > > > > Okay, I'm tired of this thread but to clear up some issues. > > NO ONE IS ASKING YOU TO KEEP WORKING ON APP-MANAGER, to fix its > bugs, to not build WebIDE. We all expect you have great reasons for > your start from scratch approach to the tool. Great, go for it. I > look forwards to using it when it is stable and noticeably better > than App-Manager. Also, we are all enthusiasts and will move to > WebIDE sooner rather than later; Julien's 'fear' seems groundless to > me. > > Asking us to file bugs is fine; using it as an excuse for your > no-transition is bullshit. We file bugs (though given the lack of > follow up on Mozilla's end, that is starting to suck too). I just > spent an hour trying to isolote and file a bug in Nightly's handling > of canvas size. I'll get around to filing bugs on WebIDE someday, > but not today, I have work to get through. Okay? And please, never > ask me to drop everything to use a tool that will probably break and > file bugs when I have my own work to do. > > Nightly if we are going to be productive using it, can not be a > 'Mozilla does whatever the fuck it wants'. Nightly, first and > foremost is the latest browser code. That's how we get bug fixes for > browser issues, maybe even issues we have just filed. So your > developer tools in nightly should play nice with letting me reliably > and safely use the latest browser code. Yes, per the shared > understanding of Nightlies, you are *allowed* to do no-transition > changes on Nightly. But why, unless it is strictly necessary, would > you? Do you not appreciate any of the issues such transitions cause? > And if ever you decide to do such a change, given their cost, it > probably makes sense to do a lot of coordination around them, not > just amongst yourselves but with your users as well. > > > So. Thanks for the new tool and I look forwards to using it someday. > Congratulations on all the hard work it took to get here. Sorry that > we didn't manage a more graceful transition. > > cheers, > ~adrian -- Paul ___ dev-b2g mailing list dev-b2g@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-b2g
Re: [b2g] Where the f*&* is app manager?
On 8/18/14 11:03 AM, Julien Wajsberg wrote:> > Just a note that you're all using Nightly here. Nightly is where > no-transition changes happen, so that we can test new things in the > wild. And sometimes we disable them after some days, or when it goes > to aurora, or when it goes to beta. > > So, yeah, we used to say to use Nightly for Firefox OS development > (because this is how we keep up with the changes) but obviously this > also comes with such disagreements. > > To enable/disable webide, you can have a look to about:config, and > look for the pref "devtools.webide.enabled". > > Please report anything that you dislikes about WebIDE by filing bugs, > before or instead of disabling it. That's basically your duty when > using Nightly :) > > Maybe we should have a separate pref to enable/disable App manager so > that we can have both side by side? My fear is that users don't use > WebIDE at all once they disable it... > > > - -- > Julien On 8/18/14 2:49 PM, Paul Rouget wrote:> Marek Raida wrote: >> Well, I agree heartily on this. We need ate least some level of stability, this is too turbulent... > > ... stability, in Firefox Nightly? > > Please file bugs if WebIDE doesn't meet your requirements. > >> Much approach better would be leave AppManager as as - probably add some hint that from now one try IDE - but remove it sounds bad practice to me... > > You can always access the app manager by loading about:app-manager. Hey WebIDE and App-Manager developers, do you really not understand why it was such a bad idea to *replace* the menu entry for App Manager rather than *add* a new entry for WebIDE? That our points of view differ so dramatically on this issue suggests a need to address our differences. I am having a hard time figuring out your point of view. You are apparently writing tools for us to use to write great Firefox OS apps and make the platform kick a**. However, you do not seem focused on our needs. First, you make a change with little concern for our workflow and day to day work. Then, when faced with push back like this thread, your instincts are to answer with self-justification rather than trying to figure out what the user need actually was and why friction arose. The transition could have been a delight. You could have announced the tool, given us access to it, helped us discover and learn to use it and listened to feedback. All the while we would have been productive with whichever tool was working for us. Instead, in using a no-transition approach, you were essentially saying "Hey, it doesn't matter that your in the middle of something potentially complicated like muddling your way through derivatives of cartographic projections, today, before you do anything else, you have to drop everything and learn to use our new tool just to get your code running on your device." From my point of view, that lacks respect. REALLY. I did not like it. The puzzling thing is that your approach was totally, completely, absolutely unnecessary. Had it been neccessary, and accompanied by an 'Sorry folks but we are having to do a no-transition upgrade on the app tool that will land next week. Find out more ...' one could have understood. But it turns out it was totally unnecessary and it caused a few hours of confusion, angst, failed reversion attempts and pain until I re-discovered the magic 'about:app-manager' URL. So, you all need to decide on your priority: is it writing your tool or helping Firefox OS developers get work done? From that decision, lots will follow naturally. Okay, I'm tired of this thread but to clear up some issues. NO ONE IS ASKING YOU TO KEEP WORKING ON APP-MANAGER, to fix its bugs, to not build WebIDE. We all expect you have great reasons for your start from scratch approach to the tool. Great, go for it. I look forwards to using it when it is stable and noticeably better than App-Manager. Also, we are all enthusiasts and will move to WebIDE sooner rather than later; Julien's 'fear' seems groundless to me. Asking us to file bugs is fine; using it as an excuse for your no-transition is bullshit. We file bugs (though given the lack of follow up on Mozilla's end, that is starting to suck too). I just spent an hour trying to isolote and file a bug in Nightly's handling of canvas size. I'll get around to filing bugs on WebIDE someday, but not today, I have work to get through. Okay? And please, never ask me to drop everything to use a tool that will probably break and file bugs when I have my own work to do. Nightly if we are going to be productive using it, can not be a 'Mozilla does whatever the fuck it wants'. Nightly, first and foremost is the latest browser code. That's how we get bug fixes for browser issues, maybe even issues we have just filed. So your developer tools in nightly should play nice with letting me reliably and safely use the latest browser code. Yes, per the shared understanding of Nightlies, y
Re: [b2g] Where the f*&* is app manager?
Marek Raida wrote: > Well, I agree heartily on this. We need ate least some level of stability, > this is too turbulent... ... stability, in Firefox Nightly? Please file bugs if WebIDE doesn't meet your requirements. > Much approach better would be leave AppManager as as - probably add some hint > that from now one try IDE - but remove it sounds bad practice to me... You can always access the app manager by loading about:app-manager. > > On Monday, 18 August 2014 12:25:06 UTC+2, Jan Jongboom wrote: > > Sorry, but why?! > > > > First, we tell everyone to use the Simulator and the Simulator dashboard to > > push applications. > > Then we tell everyone to use the App Manager and we write blog posts, make > > training videos, go on conferences about it. > > > > > > > > And now we deprecate that again? > > > > > > This is the single most important thing we tell developers who target > > Firefox OS and we cannot focus *at all*?! > > > > > > (Also I want to debug two apps at the same time, and WebIDE cannot do that. > > But that's another story). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 11:14 AM, J. Ryan Stinnett wrote: > > > > > > On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 4:01 AM, Jan Jongboom wrote: > > > > > > > > > We realize that in all docs we write and demo's we gave we tell people to > > > use the App Manager and now its gone from nightly? > > > > > > > > App Manager is being replaced by WebIDE[1], which has just been > > > > enabled by default in Nightly, which also hides the App Manager menu > > > > item. I'll be posting a longer format blog post on this later today, > > > > and will update this list with more details then. > > > > > > > > [1]: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Tools/WebIDE > > > > > > > > - Ryan > > ___ > dev-b2g mailing list > dev-b2g@lists.mozilla.org > https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-b2g -- Paul ___ dev-b2g mailing list dev-b2g@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-b2g
Re: [b2g] Where the f*&* is app manager?
Adrian Custer wrote: > On 8/18/14 6:01 AM, Jan Jongboom wrote: > >We realize that in all docs we write and demo's we gave we tell > >people to use the App Manager and now its gone from nightly? > >___ dev-b2g mailing list > >dev-b2g@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-b2g > > > > > > Ha! EXACTLY my reaction. > > It's still there. The homepage of my nightly points to > about:app-manager > and I am happily still using App Manager. > > The WebIDE is not yet up to snuff. When it works it's great, and I am > sure, for all sorts of reasons, is the path of the future. But for the > here and now, App Manager is the way to go. (I forget the details, > either syncing didn't work or debugging was flakey.) Well... we would very like to know what's is broken in WebIDE that is not in the app-manager. > Dropping the working If we dropped app-manager, it's mostly because of the amount of bug we couldn't solve with the way it was built. > for the new with no transition is BULL$*@! Is it? You can still use about:app-manager, as you said. Please file bugs. > The developers were asked nicely when this first hit if they could allow > both during a transition period. That has not happened. Such it > goes. > > courage, > ~adrian > ___ > dev-b2g mailing list > dev-b2g@lists.mozilla.org > https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-b2g -- Paul ___ dev-b2g mailing list dev-b2g@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-b2g
Re: [b2g] Where the f*&* is app manager?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Le 18/08/2014 14:56, Adrian Custer a Γ©crit : > On 8/18/14 6:01 AM, Jan Jongboom wrote: >> We realize that in all docs we write and demo's we gave we tell >> people to use the App Manager and now its gone from nightly? >> ___ dev-b2g mailing >> list dev-b2g@lists.mozilla.org >> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-b2g >> > > > > Ha! EXACTLY my reaction. > > It's still there. The homepage of my nightly points to > about:app-manager and I am happily still using App Manager. > > The WebIDE is not yet up to snuff. When it works it's great, and I > am sure, for all sorts of reasons, is the path of the future. But > for the here and now, App Manager is the way to go. (I forget the > details, either syncing didn't work or debugging was flakey.) > > Dropping the working for the new with no transition is BULL$*@! > The developers were asked nicely when this first hit if they could > allow both during a transition period. That has not happened. Such > it goes. Just a note that you're all using Nightly here. Nightly is where no-transition changes happen, so that we can test new things in the wild. And sometimes we disable them after some days, or when it goes to aurora, or when it goes to beta. So, yeah, we used to say to use Nightly for Firefox OS development (because this is how we keep up with the changes) but obviously this also comes with such disagreements. To enable/disable webide, you can have a look to about:config, and look for the pref "devtools.webide.enabled". Please report anything that you dislikes about WebIDE by filing bugs, before or instead of disabling it. That's basically your duty when using Nightly :) Maybe we should have a separate pref to enable/disable App manager so that we can have both side by side? My fear is that users don't use WebIDE at all once they disable it... - -- Julien -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1 iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJT8geZAAoJEHjtma/kG/DBKJoP/2UGVorgXOCM8NclNsyT316H eae1ZkKHDUEWfb7V55fN++4NAYjnIUOF9vd0bkomTE4bTQdD9jf4k1tWKNZduQZ/ KwaDRZ+oIymxL4eoTXjh5V4wA2a1FGCwRNaLT1wnLEGksYiMuVxlSVmM0yvFPuhn BjVHLoWsWWFV19DS4GEMUoJTOAe2oVTYr3lQu0RxkYUJdxZcwu+MEEtTofdO64xM QPqjef/iP9GZv8yWNHJzFsCRRQ6YZcHh0QLlosJw/u5KmmTpFqMGAXTdvCOUrhY9 PDNbYIqpqgcQpfO0ZcXN07tNWJEWbPHho9MZLQezjJXQ/IlelFVdJsxVeTE58Fke Mr8idbje4NVrpvHja5Ox7BlIoeXEg7l8zNwqnnPdIVQrdW19/xItaegxnBmFBS5C Xhk6atCg2cpc+5Y6V3bdHB3Ohym9+J34XPURsTV0ZnMhPXSmP/UiMjYiffvSLuL0 F7WOZWX5pvjwmorSMJT8WPW81/5jDnBUqT3SWSLBBp4qKSW1i1r+Z7MIult+C2y2 zEkxlxW4bU7qZ7wL6FrpCGSSjwUlKAj1COy2E20v333QXAb1qug9OgQ3XXjuayWS LKxU4R8ee8oAngT0CUs/YL0pR+WX69C5CuwWa/ilguDxSTQZIm5mSVsbtIqd/Vzi sfErin45CrP/PRBDlmFy =5a+t -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ dev-b2g mailing list dev-b2g@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-b2g
Re: [b2g] Where the f*&* is app manager?
On 8/18/14 6:01 AM, Jan Jongboom wrote: We realize that in all docs we write and demo's we gave we tell people to use the App Manager and now its gone from nightly? ___ dev-b2g mailing list dev-b2g@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-b2g Ha! EXACTLY my reaction. It's still there. The homepage of my nightly points to about:app-manager and I am happily still using App Manager. The WebIDE is not yet up to snuff. When it works it's great, and I am sure, for all sorts of reasons, is the path of the future. But for the here and now, App Manager is the way to go. (I forget the details, either syncing didn't work or debugging was flakey.) Dropping the working for the new with no transition is BULL$*@! The developers were asked nicely when this first hit if they could allow both during a transition period. That has not happened. Such it goes. courage, ~adrian ___ dev-b2g mailing list dev-b2g@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-b2g
Re: [b2g] Where the f*&* is app manager?
Thanks for taking the time to give us feedback! There were several problems in the way the App Manager was doing things. WebIDE got rid of many of the design issues App Manager had, and that should allow WebIDE to become a much more stable, intuitive and future-proof tool that won't be replaced any time soon. The App Manager's many shortcomings really made us feel a change was necessary. Most of App Manager's use cases should be supported by WebIDE (a notable exception being the simultaneous debugging of multiple apps) and we've added several new features like starting projects from app templates. More information will be available in Ryan's blog post later today. Sorry about the confusion this is causing. Initial feedback has been quite welcoming so far, but if there is anything you feel is wrong or missing in WebIDE, please feel free to complain / file bugs about it. On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 12:35 PM, Marek Raida wrote: > Well, I agree heartily on this. We need ate least some level of stability, > this is too turbulent... > Much approach better would be leave AppManager as as - probably add some > hint that from now one try IDE - but remove it sounds bad practice to me... > > On Monday, 18 August 2014 12:25:06 UTC+2, Jan Jongboom wrote: > > Sorry, but why?! > > > > First, we tell everyone to use the Simulator and the Simulator dashboard > to push applications. > > Then we tell everyone to use the App Manager and we write blog posts, > make training videos, go on conferences about it. > > > > > > > > And now we deprecate that again? > > > > > > This is the single most important thing we tell developers who target > Firefox OS and we cannot focus *at all*?! > > > > > > (Also I want to debug two apps at the same time, and WebIDE cannot do > that. But that's another story). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 11:14 AM, J. Ryan Stinnett > wrote: > > > > > > On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 4:01 AM, Jan Jongboom > wrote: > > > > > > > > > We realize that in all docs we write and demo's we gave we tell people > to use the App Manager and now its gone from nightly? > > > > > > > > App Manager is being replaced by WebIDE[1], which has just been > > > > enabled by default in Nightly, which also hides the App Manager menu > > > > item. I'll be posting a longer format blog post on this later today, > > > > and will update this list with more details then. > > > > > > > > [1]: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Tools/WebIDE > > > > > > > > - Ryan > > ___ > dev-b2g mailing list > dev-b2g@lists.mozilla.org > https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-b2g > ___ dev-b2g mailing list dev-b2g@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-b2g
Re: [b2g] Where the f*&* is app manager?
Well, I agree heartily on this. We need ate least some level of stability, this is too turbulent... Much approach better would be leave AppManager as as - probably add some hint that from now one try IDE - but remove it sounds bad practice to me... On Monday, 18 August 2014 12:25:06 UTC+2, Jan Jongboom wrote: > Sorry, but why?! > > First, we tell everyone to use the Simulator and the Simulator dashboard to > push applications. > Then we tell everyone to use the App Manager and we write blog posts, make > training videos, go on conferences about it. > > > > And now we deprecate that again? > > > This is the single most important thing we tell developers who target Firefox > OS and we cannot focus *at all*?! > > > (Also I want to debug two apps at the same time, and WebIDE cannot do that. > But that's another story). > > > > > > > On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 11:14 AM, J. Ryan Stinnett wrote: > > > On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 4:01 AM, Jan Jongboom wrote: > > > > > We realize that in all docs we write and demo's we gave we tell people to > > use the App Manager and now its gone from nightly? > > > > App Manager is being replaced by WebIDE[1], which has just been > > enabled by default in Nightly, which also hides the App Manager menu > > item. I'll be posting a longer format blog post on this later today, > > and will update this list with more details then. > > > > [1]: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Tools/WebIDE > > > > - Ryan ___ dev-b2g mailing list dev-b2g@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-b2g
Re: [b2g] Where the f*&* is app manager?
Sorry, but why?! First, we tell everyone to use the Simulator and the Simulator dashboard to push applications. Then we tell everyone to use the App Manager and we write blog posts, make training videos, go on conferences about it. And now we deprecate that again? This is the single most important thing we tell developers who target Firefox OS and we cannot focus *at all*?! (Also I want to debug two apps at the same time, and WebIDE cannot do that. But that's another story). On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 11:14 AM, J. Ryan Stinnett wrote: > On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 4:01 AM, Jan Jongboom > wrote: > > We realize that in all docs we write and demo's we gave we tell people > to use the App Manager and now its gone from nightly? > > App Manager is being replaced by WebIDE[1], which has just been > enabled by default in Nightly, which also hides the App Manager menu > item. I'll be posting a longer format blog post on this later today, > and will update this list with more details then. > > [1]: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Tools/WebIDE > > - Ryan > ___ dev-b2g mailing list dev-b2g@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-b2g
Re: [b2g] Where the f*&* is app manager?
On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 4:01 AM, Jan Jongboom wrote: > We realize that in all docs we write and demo's we gave we tell people to use > the App Manager and now its gone from nightly? App Manager is being replaced by WebIDE[1], which has just been enabled by default in Nightly, which also hides the App Manager menu item. I'll be posting a longer format blog post on this later today, and will update this list with more details then. [1]: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Tools/WebIDE - Ryan ___ dev-b2g mailing list dev-b2g@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-b2g
[b2g] Where the f*&* is app manager?
We realize that in all docs we write and demo's we gave we tell people to use the App Manager and now its gone from nightly? ___ dev-b2g mailing list dev-b2g@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-b2g
