Re: SpiderMonkey Newsletter #1

[Dirkjan Ochtman]

On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 7:08 PM Jan de Mooij  wrote:

> (This newsletter is also available on our blog
> .)
>

Does this mean http://blog.mozilla.org/javascript will not be used anymore?

Kind regards,

Dirkjan
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Re: Intent to remove: Fennec

[Dirkjan Ochtman]

On Mon, Sep 23, 2019 at 10:51 PM  wrote:

> As a happy Fennec end user with no direct involvement with Mozilla, I'm
> decidedly unhappy about the direction Mozilla seems to be going here.  I
> don't expect this complaint to have any effect on plans, but FYI.
>

Have you actually tried Fenix (Firefox Preview)? How did it fall short of
your usage of Fennec?

Kind regards,

Dirkjan
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Re: ThunderBird Development Environement

[Dirkjan Ochtman]

I'm afraid this is the wrong mailing list for Thunderbird development
support. Have a look here:

https://www.thunderbird.net/en-US/get-involved/

(Mailing lists are at the bottom.)

Kind regards,

Dirkjan

On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 1:50 PM muhammed ismail 
wrote:

> Could you please any one give me some details for setting up a development
> environment for the Thunderbird ,
>
> I am searching the same from a long back no perfect solution for me yet .
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Re: Intent to Ship: Show an indicator for insecure HTTP in the URL bar

[Dirkjan Ochtman]

On Tue, Jul 16, 2019, 20:12 Johann Hofmann  wrote:

> I tried embedding it in my email but email is apparently complicated, so I
> also attached it to the bug:
> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1562881#c8
>
> Thanks for letting me know :)
>

Thanks!

>
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Re: Intent to Ship: Show an indicator for insecure HTTP in the URL bar

[Dirkjan Ochtman]

On Tue, Jul 16, 2019, 19:52 Johann Hofmann  wrote:

> The bug where this change will be made is bug 1562881
> .


Is there a screenshot showing how it will change? I looked at the bug but
didn't see anything there.
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Re: Fennec moving to extended support

[Dirkjan Ochtman]

On Fri, Apr 26, 2019 at 3:11 AM Ryan VanderMeulen 
wrote:

> If you have any questions about this plan, don’t hesitate to reach out and
> I will do my best to follow up. Also, a more detailed project plan is
> available at the link below:
>

As a nightly Fennec user, I'd much rather start running Fenix nightlies at
some point soon. Is there any tentative ETA when Fenix nightlies will
become available for dogfooding on the Play Store, with regular updates?

As a long-time Mozillian, it's sad that so little information about the
Fenix project (rationale, rough timeline) appears to be publicly available.
At least searching wiki.m.o didn't turn up anything for me. I understand
not wanting to Osborne Firefox for Android or whatever, but surely bringing
along Mozillians like the Nightly community might provide some value.

Regards,

Dirkjan
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Re: Duplicate dependency policy for Rust in mozilla-central?

[Dirkjan Ochtman]

On Fri, Mar 15, 2019, 15:39 Andreas Tolfsen  wrote:

> However, I want to talk a little bit about _why_ we see so many
> duplicate crates and what causes it.  It is my experience that far
> too many dependencies are defined on exact version numbers, e.g.
> "log = 0.3.9", which effectively forces us to vendor that exact
> version in-tree.
>

While I initially thought the same thing, this is not how Cargo's
dependencies work: 0.3.9 in this context means "everything
semver-compatible with 0.3.9", so 0.3.10 would be accepted in
this instance. However, 0.4.0 by definition is semver-incompatible with
0.3.x (that is, the normal incompatibility between 1.x and 2.y is moved one
component to the right if the first component is 0).

>
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Re: Rust version required to build Firefox ESR versions

[Dirkjan Ochtman]

On Wed, Aug 8, 2018 at 3:44 PM Nathan Froyd  wrote:

> Given Rust's compatibility guarantees, you may be able to build ESR
> with later Rust releases, but your best bet is using the specific Rust
> version that we're using.
>

A related question: is there some place where I can follow along with plans
relating to Rust upgrades for mozilla-central? As a Linux distribution
packager, that might be useful information. (I remember seeing there was a
Rust upgrade planned from 1.24.0 straight to 1.28.0, but couldn't find a
reference when I recently went looking for it in Bugzilla.)

Regards,

Dirkjan
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Re: Phabricator/Lando update, November 2017

[Dirkjan Ochtman]

On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 2:38 PM, Masatoshi Kimura 
wrote:

> I went to the 2FA preference on BMO. For me, the only authentication
> option was TOTP that requires a smartphone. I do not have a smartphone
> like Mark.
>

TOTP doesn't require a smartphone at all, even though that is how many
people use it.

Here's a minimal Python implementation that, given a base32-encoded secret,
will give you the TOTP authentication code:

https://github.com/djc/persona-totp/blob/master/persona.py#L85

Regards,

Dirkjan
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Re: Browser Architecture Newsletter 5

[Dirkjan Ochtman]

Hi,

The coherent thinking and communication about Browser Architecture is a
really good change from before, thanks for that.

On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 9:47 PM, Dave Townsend 
wrote:

> We’ll be meeting to talk in more detail about the roadmap, the present,
> and the future at the All Hands
> . We
> would welcome your participation.
>

After reading the roadmap doc, I have one question: is anyone thinking
about Sync/Storage beyond the browser? It seems Sync and Storage,
especially for those of us who use smartphones or tablets, are an integral
part of modern life, yet these services are largely proprietary, and many
do not come with substantial privacy guarantees. As part of the Mozilla
mission, would it be crazy to ask that at least the fundamental
architecture of a Sync redesign takes non-browser (for example, files,
email, contacts and calendars) into account?

Best regards,

Dirkjan
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Re: Changes to tab min-width

[Dirkjan Ochtman]

On Sat, Nov 18, 2017 at 7:38 AM,  wrote:

> 57 is unusable for me..I keep 35-50 tabs open at any given time and I used
> Custom Tab Width legacy extension to prevent scrolling. I CANNOT stand
> scrolling thru tabs. I don't need to read the tab- I KNOW where they are.
> It should be simple to allow tabminwidth to go lower than currently
> configured. Then the user could decide how THEY like it. If this doesn't
> happen soon I will be reverting to an older versio nof FF or switching
> browsers altogether. btw..there is still some memory leak with FF. After a
> day I have to restart FF or it would eat all remaining Mem on my 8G system.


Luckily, Firefox has your back. From the first message in this thread:

On Tuesday, October 3, 2017 at 3:36:40 PM UTC-5, Jeff Griffiths wrote:
> 1. it reintroduces an old preference 'browser.tabs.tabMinWidth' that
> contains a pixel value that controls the minimum width of a tab.

Which you can easily set to a different value that works better for you.

Cheers,

Dirkjan
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Re: Changes to tab min-width

[Dirkjan Ochtman]

On Tue, Oct 3, 2017 at 10:36 PM, Jeff Griffiths 
wrote:

> 1. do you prefer the existing behaviour or the new behaviour?
> 2. if you prefer a value for this pref different than 50 or 100, what
> is it? Why?
>

Like others, I really like ~75 pixels. This allows me to see the first 5-6
characters of the page's title, which I find really helpful in
distinguishing tabs. At 50 pixels, it's really only the favicon, which
seems much less helpful in my usage.

Cheers,

Dirkjan
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Re: JSBC: JavaScript Start-up Bytecode Cache

[Dirkjan Ochtman]

On Jun 13, 2017 11:55, "Nicolas B. Pierron" 
wrote:

The JavaScript Start-up Bytecode Cache⁰ is a project which aims at reducing
the page load time by recording the bytecode generated during the last
visits and by-pass the JavaScript parser.


So this is about content JS only? Has anyone thought about doing similar
things for chrome JS? It would seem like that would actually be easier
(since it's known to be immutable)?

Cheers,

Dirkjan
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Re: Intent to disable service workers and push in 52 ESR

[Dirkjan Ochtman]

On Wed, Jan 18, 2017 at 5:38 PM, Ben Kelly  wrote:
> Last I checked we do this all the time for new and potentially unstable
> things.  For example, AFAIK we do not enable e10s on ESR.  I have not heard
> if that will change for 52 ESR.  I would expect not, though, since we are
> still rolling it out to the full population.
>
> I just don't think we can commit to providing stable security uplifts to ESR
> for a 9 months if our trunk version is completely different.

e10s is very different to me because it's not part of the web platform
API. On the other hand, sites like caniuse.com clearly advertise that
ServiceWorkers are available in Firefox (and Chrome), and then going
back and not exposing that in the ESR population seems to me that in a
sense, we break a kind of contract with web developers.

What's the rate of ServiceWorker security bugs? Do you expect that many of them?

Cheers,

Dirkjan
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Re: Intent to disable service workers and push in 52 ESR

[Dirkjan Ochtman]

On Wed, Jan 18, 2017 at 4:49 PM, Ben Kelly  wrote:
> While things have stabilized since then we are in process of making a major
> architectural change in order to support multiple content processes
> (multi-e10s).  This will make it very difficult to uplift fixes.  Once the
> new architecture has stabilized we should be able to enable SW in the next
> ESR.
>
> Thoughts?

Maybe I'm missing context, but I find the notion of not-shipping
things on ESR that are available on the normal release channel pretty
strange. Maybe this is because I'm incorrectly assuming that the
majority of Firefox usage in the wild is not on ESR? Alternatively, is
Service Workers the only thing getting major architectural changes for
multi-e10s? (I would assume not.) If not, are we withholding all those
other things from the ESR channel, too?

Cheers,

Dirkjan
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Re: What is the big picture view of where the Mozilla/Firefox platform is going?

[Dirkjan Ochtman]

On Fri, Aug 26, 2016 at 9:12 PM, Bobby Holley  wrote:
> My 1000-ft take on big-picture direction:
> * Platform wants to pivot from implementing Platform things in C++ (which
> is prone to memory hazards) and JS (which is weakly typed, has runtime
> overhead, and various security gotchas) to implementing them in Rust (which
> mostly eliminates memory hazards like JS does, but has none of the
> aforementioned downsides of JS).
> * Firefox wants to pivot from implementing Firefox things with XPCOM/XUL
> machinery to implementing them with Web/HTML machinery.

This is great, thanks. I was wondering: where/why is the boundary
between those two very different directions?

Cheers,

Dirkjan
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Re: Nightly Only Containers Feature

[Dirkjan Ochtman]

On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 12:42 PM, Tanvi Vyas  wrote:
> If this capability interests you, please try out the feature and provide us
> with feedback[1].  We want to ensure that the OriginAttributes

What's the proper Bugzilla component for bugs/feature requests related
to this? I got a bug triage email about
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1280697 which is
currently categorized as Widget: Cocoa due to some OS X-specific
ideas, but I think will have a better chance of getting attention in a
Containers-focused component.

Cheers,

Dirkjan
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Re: What is "Process Type = content" in "mozilla crash reports"?

[Dirkjan Ochtman]

On Thu, May 19, 2016 at 11:28 PM, Tobias B. Besemer
 wrote:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streaming_SIMD_Extensions
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SSE2

Hi Tobias,

I applaud your enthusiasm in wanting to contribute to this effort.
However, in doing so, you've sent 8 messages in the past 16 hours, 6
of which were responding to other emails you yourself sent. Please
consider waiting a little longer and doing more research before you
send a message; dev-platform is a widely read mailing list, so each
email you sent takes significant attention, in the aggregate, to
process.

Thanks for taking this into account in the future,

Dirkjan
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Re: Decreasing quality?

[Dirkjan Ochtman]

On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 10:27 AM, Till Schneidereit
t...@tillschneidereit.net wrote:
 That seems likely, yes. Being responsible for this particular regression, I
 can say that neither is it at all related to the other bugs mentioned, nor
 can it reasonably be interpreted as a sign of decreasing attention to
 quality: the patch I landed triggered a preexisting bug in a way that was
 pretty much unforeseeable and, because we didn't know about it, wasn't
 covered by our test suite. While the result was particularly bad - and I
 apologize for that - I don't see what I could've done better to catch it
 before landing.

I'm not talking about any specific issues, I was just wondering if
others were seeing a trend.

 (From four or so years of experience running Nightly as my main browser, I
 can say that every now and again things seem to come to a head, with
 multiple annoying issues occurring in a short time frame. I'm pretty sure
 that that's always [or almost always] purely by chance, and reading too much
 into it isn't warranted. Neither does it make sense to pat ourselves on the
 shoulder too much in the stretches of unusual stability we also have on the
 Nightly channel.)

That makes sense.

Cheers,

Dirkjan
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Re: Decreasing quality?

[Dirkjan Ochtman]

On Thu, Aug 20, 2015 at 8:45 PM, Mike Hoye mh...@mozilla.com wrote:
 For what it's worth, living on Nightly + e10s + a multiscreen setup has been
 pretty hard on the soul for a couple of months now, but I don't think that's
 a sign of decreasing attention to quality or detail. That's just the price
 of being in the crumple zone of a big, ambitious architectural change,
 better we pay it on Nightly than release.

Fair enough.

BTW, there are also lots of issues in switching screens (or
resolutions). E.g. at work my Firefox window regularly moves from
Retina laptop screen to 27 normal screen, to TV screens, and Firefox
sucks at redoing the layout to adapt to the changed viewport size.
I've mentioned this a few times, but I'm not sure if there are any
bugs about this stuff?

Cheers,

Dirkjan
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Decreasing quality?

[Dirkjan Ochtman]

Hi all,

I have an anecdote, and was wondering if others can corroborate: it
seems to me that Nightly's quality has been getting worse recently
(this is on latest OS X, rMBP). I'm specifically talking about the
past two to three weeks, where I was on holiday and as such spent less
time in Firefox than normally; however, I noticed a number of issues,
some quite impactful. To wit:

1. 1191907 -- 100% cpu usage with 07befc6f54e7 nightly (20150806030205)

2. 1193796 -- Unable to access Google properties with Firefox Nightly

3. 1191465 -- Plugin Container crash Nightly: [@ SweepArenaListT]

4. 1193977 -- HTML video is rendered on top of the title bar on OS X

5. 1194611 -- Right-clicking tab at right edge of screen immediately
picks top-most Reload Tab option

Is this just a coincidence? Decreased coverage over the summer?
Something structural? Most of these were fixed quite quickly, but the
first two in particular were still quite annoying; the last one is
still bothering me, but is perhaps more of a nagging UX regression.

Cheers,

Dirkjan
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Re: Busy indicator API

[Dirkjan Ochtman]

On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 5:11 PM, Anne van Kesteren ann...@annevk.nl wrote:
 Is there a reason we shouldn't expose a hook for this?

On the one hand, this seems really useful. On the other hand, I'm
pretty worried about the UX implications here. I wouldn't want a dozen
flashing/spinning/moving things in my tab bar...

Cheers,

Dirkjan
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Re: Voting in BMO

[Dirkjan Ochtman]

On Tue, Jun 9, 2015 at 11:09 PM, Mark Côté mc...@mozilla.com wrote:
 To that end, I'd like to consider the voting feature.  While it is
 enabled on a quite a few products, anecdotally I have heard
 many times that it isn't actually useful, that is, votes aren't really
 being used to prioritize features  fixes.  If your team uses voting,
 I'd like to talk about your use case and see if, in general, it makes
 sense to continue to support this feature.

Perhaps a good solution would be to morph voting into a less complex
feature. I.e., it could be more like GitHub stars, where you have a
way to note your interest without retrieving regular updates; just a
binary state for every user/issue, with a single clickable UI element.

Similarly, I could imagine that the very explicit CC list could be
changed to be more like a Follow button, plus a (simplified) way to
include others for those who have relevant privileges.

Cheers,

Dirkjan
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Re: Project Silk on Desktop

[Dirkjan Ochtman]

On Fri, Mar 13, 2015 at 3:39 PM, Mike Conley mcon...@mozilla.com wrote:
 Perhaps its worth talking to comms to get their input on whether or not
 it's a good time.

 But I have to agree with Jared and Mike - I think showing progress,
 especially on the part of performance (perceived or not) can only be a
 good thing.

+1 from me, Project Silk had fallen off my radar even although I'm a
pretty close follower of the Mozilla/Firefox ecosystem.

So although the initial impression has been less than stellar (bug
1142957), I'm pretty excited.

Cheers,

Dirkjan
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Re: Permission UI

[Dirkjan Ochtman]

On Tue, Mar 3, 2015 at 12:40 PM, Anne van Kesteren ann...@annevk.nl wrote:
 I'd like to ask that we start investigating how to best present these
 to the user, including their persistence and implications. As well as
 strongly considering updating about:preferences to reveal how much we
 store for each page (and making it possible to tweak there).

As for persistence, we also still have this open:

https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=470699

Cheers,

Dirkjan
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Re: after NPAPI ?

[Dirkjan Ochtman]

On Tue, Nov 25, 2014 at 11:20 AM,  rayna...@gmail.com wrote:
 My plugin is a link between web page and sound processing. I record the 
 voice, apply some math, and inject in real time in the headset.
 It's a like a guitar effect but for the voice.

 Do you know how I could interface C++ and Web?
 On Internet Explorer I use ActiveX, but how I will do it when NPAPI disappear?

I think the future-proof solution would be to compile your C++ code to
asm.js using Emscripten, and use the getUserMedia() HTML 5 API to do
the sound recording.

Cheers,

Dirkjan
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Re: after NPAPI ?

[Dirkjan Ochtman]

On Tue, Nov 25, 2014 at 2:28 PM,  rayna...@gmail.com wrote:
 If I read correctly, asm.js execute code in a sandbox. I don't think a 
 sandbox let me access to the wasapi drivers of the soundcard.

Why do you need to access those drivers/what are you using them for?

Cheers,

Dirkjan
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Re: e10s is now enabled by default for Nightly!

[Dirkjan Ochtman]

On Fri, Nov 7, 2014 at 11:38 AM, Gijs Kruitbosch
gijskruitbo...@gmail.com wrote:
 Right, it's that last part that is very much not the case for me.

 I looked for a bug for a while and decided to just file one:
 https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1095407

My experience upgrading to today's nightly was also pretty bad. For
me, it crashed on startup, every time, until I finally figured out a
way to restart in safe mode. I've filed a bug with notes on what was
happening:

https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1095455

Also, I think the underlining of tab titles should have been fixed
before enabling by default. I very much agree with Gijs that, in any
case, my usage of Nightly is dependent on it being pretty usable
almost every day, otherwise I have to retreat into something
friendlier.

Cheers,

Dirkjan
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Re: Git - Hg workflows?

[Dirkjan Ochtman]

On Fri, Oct 31, 2014 at 3:21 PM, Ehsan Akhgari ehsan.akhg...@gmail.com wrote:
 In the current world, there are enough hg and git users that I think Mozilla
 should consider supporting both as first class citizens.  The proper way to
 do that would be deploying a git push server which eliminates the need to do
 anything with hg on the client side.

Have we considered throwing some cash Fog Creek's way, to get our
grubby hands on their Kiln Harmony stuff?

Cheers,

Dirkjan
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Re: Intent to implement: Disabling auto-play videos on mobile networks/devices?

[Dirkjan Ochtman]

On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 7:51 PM, Nick Alexander nalexan...@mozilla.com wrote:
 In general, I'm in favour of not autoplaying at all on mobile devices.

Me too!

Anecdotal: recently I woke up my wife when I was trying to overcome
sleeplessness by browsing my phone a little bit (a questionable method
of doing so, but hey!) and I ran into some very loud ad that started
autoplaying (this was on my home Wifi).

Cheers,

Dirkjan
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Re: Depending on libnotify

[Dirkjan Ochtman]

On Wed, Jul 2, 2014 at 1:41 PM, David Rajchenbach-Teller
dtel...@mozilla.com wrote:
 Which library do you suggest?

Take a look at watchman:

https://github.com/facebook/watchman

Cheers,

Dirkjan
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Re: What are the most important new APIs to document in Q3/Q4?

[Dirkjan Ochtman]

On Thu, Jun 26, 2014 at 11:40 PM, Ehsan Akhgari ehsan.akhg...@gmail.com wrote:
 I can think of EME, the Mobile ID API, and WebCrypto which are missing from
 this list off the top of my head.

Your mention of EME made me think of MediaSource, which I actually
think might be more important?

Tracker here: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=778617

Cheers,

Dirkjan
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Web Replay

[Dirkjan Ochtman]

This may be a stupid question, but I just saw this on the webkit
mailing list: a way to capture network/user input events (with
negligible overhead) for debugging purposes.

https://lists.webkit.org/pipermail/webkit-dev/2014-January/026062.html

I didn't find any bugs about this; it seems interesting, though.

Cheers,

Dirkjan
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Re: Can we teach the updater to download and install multiple partial updates?

[Dirkjan Ochtman]

On Thu, Nov 21, 2013 at 4:17 AM, Geoff Lankow ge...@darktrojan.net wrote:
 Has this been discussed before? If so, what was the outcome? Are there bugs
 filed? I didn't find any but I don't really know what to search for.

There's also https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=353804,
which I think would alleviate this a bunch.

Cheers,

Dirkjan
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Re: java click to run problem on Firefox

[Dirkjan Ochtman]

On Thu, Oct 10, 2013 at 9:42 PM, Ehsan Akhgari ehsan.akhg...@gmail.com wrote:
 Has anyone here played around with the toolchain I describe above?

 I have looked into this briefly.  There is a java compiler that targets llvm
 somewhere which I can't find a link to right now, but it's unmaintained and
 IIRC it did not cover all of the Java syntax.

There is VMKit and J3, which claims to be a decent JVM built on top of LLVM:

http://vmkit.llvm.org/

It does state that it's more like a proof of concept, though.

Cheers,

Dirkjan
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Re: Mac OSX 10.7+ lion style scroll bars landed on m-i

[Dirkjan Ochtman]

On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 9:23 PM, Stephen Pohl sp...@mozilla.com wrote:
 This is a quick heads up that Mac OSX 10.7+ lion style scroll bars (bug
 636564) have landed on mozilla-inbound with
 https://hg.mozilla.org/integration/mozilla-inbound/rev/0c513ba74137. Once
 merged to mozilla-central expect them to appear in our nightlies.

Thanks so much for working on this, it was about time.

Cheers,

Dirkjan
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Re: Proposal for an inbound2 branch

[Dirkjan Ochtman]

On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 8:43 AM, Ehsan Akhgari ehsan.akhg...@gmail.com wrote:
 In git, the only way to have something in your history is for it to be
 reachable by a ref (for example, a branch name).  When you convert an hg
 repo with a multi-headed branch to git, you can only choose to represent one
 of those heads by a branch name, and the other head will be left stranded,
 which means that it cannot be used normally (for example you cannot push it
 when you push your branch somewhere) and git gc will remove it from your
 repository since it thinks that it's an unneeded commit.

It seems like a hg bookmark could be used to keep a pointer to the
separate heads. This should create the refs you need when using
hg-git. (FWIW, I fully agree that keeping two anonymous heads is
probably a bad idea.)

Cheers,

Dirkjan
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Re: Moz2D Repository Creation

[Dirkjan Ochtman]

On Wed, Mar 27, 2013 at 9:42 PM, Bas Schouten bschou...@mozilla.com wrote:
 As the next step in moving towards these goals and optimally supporting them 
 the proposal is to move Moz2D into its own repository. We would use hg 
 subrepos for this purpose, you can read more about this here 
 (http://mercurial.selenic.com/wiki/Subrepository). The intention is that this 
 will be done in such a way that the workflow for developers not involved in 
 Moz2D development would essentially not change.

Did you take note of the warnings and recommendations in the wiki
regarding subrepository usage?

I used them for a while at work, some time ago, and it's... different.
Theoretically it's all simple and nice, but there end up being corner
case that don't work so well. And what with the git conversions that
some people seem to prefer, that would all be even more complex.

I'd recommend thinking this over a bit, and maybe just using the NSS
model instead, or some method to pull in a fixed revision/tarball via
a build system or similar feature.

Cheers,

Dirkjan
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Re: reproducing bug 808466

[Dirkjan Ochtman]

On Tue, Dec 18, 2012 at 12:02 PM, Robert O'Callahan
rob...@ocallahan.org wrote:
 Bug 808466 is about changes in selection sometimes not being rendered in a
 timely manner. Basically you select something and the selection doesn't
 show up immediately. It will usually show up after some delay.

 I *think* this is a rendering bug due to DLBI or something related, but I'm
 not 100% sure (jank can sometimes produce the same effect). Unfortunately
 no-one knows reliable steps to reproduce the bug. If you've seen the bug,
 and especially if you know how to reproduce it, please comment in bug
 808466. I'd really like to not ship this regression, because it's annoying.

This sounds similar to https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=801555.

The incidence of that has gone way down since I reported it, but I
think I still see rare cases.

Cheers,

Dirkjan
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Re: UA string: Touch or Tablet again

[Dirkjan Ochtman]

On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 4:51 PM, Gervase Markham g...@mozilla.org wrote:
 Can we quickly revisit the question of whether to have one of Touch or
 Tablet in our UA string under some circumstances? We need to work out how
 Windows 8 Metro fits into our plans (bug 787786), plus the new pile of
 touch-enabled laptops and desktops that I see in the glossy ads which come
 with my weekly news magazine. The concern I see is that if we stick with
 Tablet and apply it consistently only to tablets, it will be increasingly
 not useful to web developers, and simply be a point of gratuitous confusion
 and incompatibility.

Metro doesn't really imply touch, though, does it? AFAICT, Windows RT
(Metro is a deprecated term, AIUI) is a very visible part of the
non-touch desktop-level Windows 8 UI.

 Consistent options we could adopt on this question:

 A) Use Touch to indicate has a touch-sensitive screen (and is not already
 marked 'Mobile'). This would lead to us using it on tablets, Windows 8
 machines, and any other desktop PC with a touchscreen. It would not be
 removed if a keyboard was _also_ present. This is Microsoft's approach.

If the above is true (Windows RT non-touch interfaces are common) then
this seems like a bad option. I.e. if Mozilla was to adopt a Touch
token in the UA, it would seem most ideal to only use it on hardware
that's actually touch-capable.

 B) Use Tablet to indicate has a tablet form-factor (N or greater, where
 suggested value for N is 7). So Windows 8 machines and other touch-screen
 desktop machines would have the desktop UA. If a tablet acquires a keyboard,
 like the Asus Transformer can, the token would ideally be removed. This is
 our current approach, and (as far as I can see) Opera's.

 C) Use Mobile, like the Kindle and Nook. I think it's unlikely we'd want
 to do this for _all_ tablets, so let's say under a certain size, N, and use
 the desktop UA above that size. This is Amazon's approach.

 D) Use neither, like Chrome. UA sniffing is evil. Developers should use the
 presence of a touch API to detect touch capability, and use flexible layout
 to adapt to whatever screen size the user has. This is Google's approach.

Given all the options listed, this one sounds seriously attractive.
Let the developers use appropriate API's to figure out what kind of
layout is appropriate, instead of having them on confusing UA tokens.

 Options I want to avoid:

 X) Stick with Tablet, but find out it ends up meaning Touch anyway. If
 you are arguing for sticking with Tablet, are you happy that we won't be
 using it on touchscreen desktops and laptops? Do you think that's what
 developers will expect?

 Y) Use both. Ick.

 Z) Use Touch on Windows 8, and Tablet everywhere else. This is bound to
 throw people off.

 Questions that I think are relevant:

 1) What are web developers expecting? Are people making separate touch-only
 sites? Or separate tablet sites? Or are some people doing each of those?

 2) Given the varied sizes of tablet, is a single Tablet token, which must
 inevitably have a size cutoff, actually going to be useful? Touch capability
 is at least binary.

Probably not.

 3) Given the choice of mobile or desktop, what sort of experience do we
 think people on tablets should have? Does it depend on size?

I think having it depend on size makes a lot of sense.

But that's just my $0.02,

Dirkjan
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Re: Minimum Required Python Version

[Dirkjan Ochtman]

On Sun, Sep 9, 2012 at 10:06 PM, Paul ADENOT p...@paul.cx wrote:
 The next Ubuntu release will include Python 3, and not Python 2.x (on a
 default install).

 However, as you note, Python 2.7 will be available as a separate package. I
 just wanted to mention that, considering the number of people that use
 Ubuntu, we should make clear that an _additional_ version of Python should
 be installed, since it's probably easy to overlook.

I'm pretty sure that's wrong. It's only true for the install media,
which obviously have a much more limited set of packages installed by
default. The default Ubuntu 12.10 install should also come with
python-2.7.

Cheers,

Dirkjan
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