Re: Poll: How users use DNF

[Sudhir Khanger]

On Tuesday, December 09, 2014 12:28:54 PM Radek Holy wrote:
> I would be very grateful if you could send me a brief description of how you
> use YUM or DNF currently or how would you like to use it.

DNF doesn't work with local repositories created via createrepo or yum-plugin-
local. It is one of the reasons I can't use DNF at all. I would hope that DNF 
would support local repositories before Fedora adopts it as an official 
package management tool. Here is the bug report[1].

[1] https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=991014

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Re: "Workstation" Product defaults to wide-open firewall

[Ian Malone]

On 10 December 2014 at 00:43, Bastien Nocera  wrote:
>
>
> - Original Message -
>> On 9 December 2014 at 13:47, Matthew Miller  wrote:
>> > On Tue, Dec 09, 2014 at 01:11:33PM +, Ian Malone wrote:
>> >> > have a proposal for a new spin focused on privacy and security — the
>> >> > Netizen Spin. (If you're interested, I think that could use additional
>> >> > contributors.)
>> >> I was under the impression spins were to be phased out. I could be
>> >> wrong, the discussion was about the time of the product proposal.
>> >
>> > That's wrong; the clear outcome of that discussion was that we want to
>> > keep them, and provide more flexiblity and opportunity for spins
>> > maintainers as well.
>> >
>>
>> Well that's some good news to come out of this at least.
>>
>> > Everyone knows that there are improvements to be made, but it's _not_
>> > an easy problem. Contributions are welcome towards making that better
>> > for F22 and beyond. (Use cases. Design mockups. Code)
>> >
>>
>> Rather time poor at the moment and not a gnome developer
>> unfortunately. Does rather sound like things like rygel need fixed,
>> but as I have no intention of ever using it I'm not highly motivated
>> to do something about it.
>
> Just like Reindl you make the mistake of thinking that rygel needs to be fixed
> or that it's the only service impacted by this scheme. It's not, and it was
> pointed out in earlier mails.
>

You're sniping at me now, and making assumptions. So I get to do this,
please read the fedora code of conduct and be awesome!
http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct

I have skimmed the links you listed. Like I said, time poor. I see no
explanation of why rygel needs a random port or why it cannot supply
that information to firewalld. The same goes for any others that have
random ports.


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introducing alternatives into a package

[Jens Petersen]

Hi,

http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging:Alternatives explains how
alternatives should be done in Fedora, however it does not seem to
address the case of converting an existing package to use alternatives.

Specifically the problem arises when a file is changed to become a %ghost.
It seems rpm keeps the old file around as a ghost and so update-alternatives
does not create the new symlink.

I remember this happening when emacs introduced alternatives
a good while back: at the time I worked around it just by removing
emacs and reinstalling it.

Adding:

%pre
if [ $1 -gt 1 ] ; then
  if [ -f %{_bindir}/%{name} -a ! -L %{_bindir}/%{name} ]; then
  rm %{_bindir}/%{name}
  fi
fi

seems to be one way to handle this.

Is there any better way to do this or is the above solution good enough?

If so maybe I should ask FPC about updating Packaging:Alternatives to
include this.  (I kind of wish these kind of idioms would be defined
as rpm macros.)

Jens
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Re: Poll: How users use DNF

[Petr Spacek]

On 9.12.2014 18:28, Radek Holy wrote:
> Dear users of YUM and DNF,
> 
> I'm writing to you regarding a request for your feedback. I would be very 
> grateful if you could send me a brief description of how you use YUM or DNF 
> currently or how would you like to use it. I am particularly interested in 
> the occurrences of "dnf/yum install" calls in your scripts. What does these 
> scripts do and what do they expect when they call the "install" command in 
> different situations?
> 
> Please share with me the use cases, not the description of the "install" 
> command. Think twice before you share something because I believe it's not as 
> easy as it might seem. As an example I think it might be something like:
> 
> - "I call YUM install, because I want to get given packages into my system 
> and I don't care whether it requires an upgrade or downgrade or what." or
> - "I want to get them there but it should protect me against dangerous 
> operations like downgrades" or
> - "I often make typos, so I expect that the program knows what I mean" or
> - "it would be nice if it would literally perform the installation; if any of 
> the packages cannot be installed because of any reason, it should fail".
> 
> Not something like: "that's obvious that the install command should never 
> downgrade packages".
> 
> Please focus on *use cases*. The *real* (non-hypothetical) use cases. Not on 
> the command's name as it might also result in a new command (while preserving 
> the well-known install command together with an appropriate behaviour).
> 
> I don't mind if you send it offlist (or to another list). I think there is no 
> need to comment on anyone's use case. Every case is valid. Just not every 
> case can be supported.
> 
> Thank you very much in advance.
> 

Hello,

my use cases are developer-oriented:

1) I need ability to install *precise* versions of packages. Typically this is
caused by need to examine coredump file received from a user.

Install command in yum behaves weirdly, there are all sorts of weird corner
cases where "yum install foo-2:3.4.5-666 bar-1:2.3-4" fails for some reason.

Imagine this situation:
- I always start with clean Fedora VM snapshot created a week (or month :-)
ago. It would be waste of bandwidth and time to reinstall it the every day.
- I copy&paste list of package from bug report to command line - it results in
command line:
$ yum install foo-2:3.4.5-666 bar-1:2.3-4

In this scenario, it could happen that package foo needs upgrade (because the
VM snapshot is 1 week old) and package bar needs downgrade at the same time
(because user who reported the bug did not upgrade bar package for whatever
reason).

In my opinion, if 'install' command receives N(E)VR specification then it
should respect it even if it means downgrade. And it should *scream* if it is
not possible install requested package version!

I'm not sure if there is a conflict with other requirements you received,
maybe I'm asking for dnf install-what-I-typed-in command :-)


2) Installing locally built RPMs:
I often rebuild packages with minimal changes, e.g. just with different CFLAGS
but with no changes to the actual source.

I get my new shiny packages in ~/rpmbuild
but
$ yum install ~/rpmbuild/RPMS/*/*
often fails to install them because system has newer or the same version of
the package installed already.

In this specific case, where yum install gets RPMs as parameters (instead of
names from repo) it should (re)install them even if it means downgrade.


3) Upgrading/Reinstalling locally built packages.
In cases where rebuild yields lots of packages it is handy to have ability to
reinstall/upgrade/downgrade only packages which are installed at the moment.

E.g. bind src rpm produces 15 different packages but my test system has only 8
of them installed. In this case running
$ yum install ~/rpmbuild/RPMS/*/*
is not useful because I would install a lot of unnecessary packages (which can
be sometime conflicting with others).

I would be happy if
$ yum reinstall ~/rpmbuild/RPMS/*/*
reinstalled/upgradeed/downgraded only packages which are actually installed
and ignored the rest.

Maybe it is a case for dnf reinstall-what-I-typed-in command.

Thank you for listening and have a nice day!

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Re: "Workstation" Product defaults to wide-open firewall

[Reindl Harald]

Am 10.12.2014 um 06:08 schrieb Simo Sorce:

Most users have no idea what NAT, TCP or ports are


sadly yes


nor should they!


*they should* damned

people should stop to evangelize that users do not need to know anything 
and then design operating systems based on that self-fulfilling prophecy




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Re: Review swap -- Budgie Desktop

[Ralf Corsepius]

On 12/08/2014 05:06 PM, Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek wrote:

On Mon, Dec 08, 2014 at 11:01:50AM -0500, Bastien Nocera wrote:



- Original Message -

On Mon, Dec 08, 2014 at 09:08:09AM -0500, Bastien Nocera wrote:

It's a sub-module because it's not a library.

I know it does not have a stable api. But could it be compiled
as a library?


It could be, as long as it's not installed in a system-wide location.
My point was that you don't need any exceptions to include the
gnome-volume-control library in your package.

According to 
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging:No_Bundled_Libraries#Exceptions,

For some reasons, this currently is inaccessible (Error 503) ;)


"Exceptions are granted on a case-by-case basis by FPC.  You can look
in the following section for help on making a case for why an
exception should be granted. You should open up a ticket in the FPC's
trac with information asked for below. " and below is a section called
"Some reasons you might be granted an exception" with a "Copylibs"
subheading. So Unless I'm confusing something, an FPC stamp is still
needed.


Yes. We (FPC) usually examines those cases, and either grants a copylib 
exception (I.e. mandates these packages to be add Provided: bundled(...) 
or these packages to be converted to provide/shared libs).


Please file an FPC ticket to initiate this process.


It's copy/pasted in the control-center package (that's the original code),
in gnome-settings-daemon and in gnome-shell.

;)

Ralf

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Re: Poll: How users use DNF

[Petr Spacek]

On 10.12.2014 10:14, Petr Spacek wrote:
> On 9.12.2014 18:28, Radek Holy wrote:
>> Dear users of YUM and DNF,
>>
>> I'm writing to you regarding a request for your feedback. I would be very 
>> grateful if you could send me a brief description of how you use YUM or DNF 
>> currently or how would you like to use it. I am particularly interested in 
>> the occurrences of "dnf/yum install" calls in your scripts. What does these 
>> scripts do and what do they expect when they call the "install" command in 
>> different situations?
>>
>> Please share with me the use cases, not the description of the "install" 
>> command. Think twice before you share something because I believe it's not 
>> as easy as it might seem. As an example I think it might be something like:
>>
>> - "I call YUM install, because I want to get given packages into my system 
>> and I don't care whether it requires an upgrade or downgrade or what." or
>> - "I want to get them there but it should protect me against dangerous 
>> operations like downgrades" or
>> - "I often make typos, so I expect that the program knows what I mean" or
>> - "it would be nice if it would literally perform the installation; if any 
>> of the packages cannot be installed because of any reason, it should fail".
>>
>> Not something like: "that's obvious that the install command should never 
>> downgrade packages".
>>
>> Please focus on *use cases*. The *real* (non-hypothetical) use cases. Not on 
>> the command's name as it might also result in a new command (while 
>> preserving the well-known install command together with an appropriate 
>> behaviour).
>>
>> I don't mind if you send it offlist (or to another list). I think there is 
>> no need to comment on anyone's use case. Every case is valid. Just not every 
>> case can be supported.
>>
>> Thank you very much in advance.
>>
> 
> Hello,
> 
> my use cases are developer-oriented:
> 
> 1) I need ability to install *precise* versions of packages. Typically this is
> caused by need to examine coredump file received from a user.
> 
> Install command in yum behaves weirdly, there are all sorts of weird corner
> cases where "yum install foo-2:3.4.5-666 bar-1:2.3-4" fails for some reason.
> 
> Imagine this situation:
> - I always start with clean Fedora VM snapshot created a week (or month :-)
> ago. It would be waste of bandwidth and time to reinstall it the every day.
> - I copy&paste list of package from bug report to command line - it results in
> command line:
> $ yum install foo-2:3.4.5-666 bar-1:2.3-4
> 
> In this scenario, it could happen that package foo needs upgrade (because the
> VM snapshot is 1 week old) and package bar needs downgrade at the same time
> (because user who reported the bug did not upgrade bar package for whatever
> reason).
> 
> In my opinion, if 'install' command receives N(E)VR specification then it
> should respect it even if it means downgrade. And it should *scream* if it is
> not possible install requested package version!
> 
> I'm not sure if there is a conflict with other requirements you received,
> maybe I'm asking for dnf install-what-I-typed-in command :-)
> 
> 
> 2) Installing locally built RPMs:
> I often rebuild packages with minimal changes, e.g. just with different CFLAGS
> but with no changes to the actual source.
> 
> I get my new shiny packages in ~/rpmbuild
> but
> $ yum install ~/rpmbuild/RPMS/*/*
> often fails to install them because system has newer or the same version of
> the package installed already.
> 
> In this specific case, where yum install gets RPMs as parameters (instead of
> names from repo) it should (re)install them even if it means downgrade.
> 
> 
> 3) Upgrading/Reinstalling locally built packages.
> In cases where rebuild yields lots of packages it is handy to have ability to
> reinstall/upgrade/downgrade only packages which are installed at the moment.
> 
> E.g. bind src rpm produces 15 different packages but my test system has only 8
> of them installed. In this case running
> $ yum install ~/rpmbuild/RPMS/*/*
> is not useful because I would install a lot of unnecessary packages (which can
> be sometime conflicting with others).
> 
> I would be happy if
> $ yum reinstall ~/rpmbuild/RPMS/*/*
> reinstalled/upgradeed/downgraded only packages which are actually installed
> and ignored the rest.
> 
> Maybe it is a case for dnf reinstall-what-I-typed-in command.

Oh, I forgot to one more use case/plugin.

4) Fedora does not store old versions of packages in repo so I often have to
go to Koji and download older rpms from there.

A koji-repo plugin (in combination with install-what-I-typed-in command
described above) would be awesome thing to have: Just copy&paste list of RPMs
from bug report and get all of them installed in one sweep!

> Thank you for listening and have a nice day!

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Self Introduction: Vladimir Stackov

[Vladimir Stackov]

Greetings, Fedora lovers,

I'm glad to introduce myself to you.
I'm 15+ years developer/admin with mainly perl-experience (also I
write on C#/C/C++/Java) and would to like to make a contribution to
Fedora.
I'm going to maintain zbackup package for Fedora and EPEL.
I'm also one of the zbackup contributors and one of two zbackup
upstream maintainers.

Here is my first review request:
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1172525

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To the "Tiles in Firefox New Tab" discussion

[Matěj Cepl]

Hi,

I just wanted to introduce to the august audience here the 
blogpost 
http://blog.mozilla.org/advancingcontent/2014/12/09/getting-tiles-data-into-firefox/

Best,

Matěj

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Re: Review swap -- Budgie Desktop

[Michel Alexandre Salim]

On 12/10/2014 04:19 PM, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
> On 12/08/2014 05:06 PM, Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek wrote:
>> On Mon, Dec 08, 2014 at 11:01:50AM -0500, Bastien Nocera wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> - Original Message -
 On Mon, Dec 08, 2014 at 09:08:09AM -0500, Bastien Nocera wrote:
> It's a sub-module because it's not a library.
 I know it does not have a stable api. But could it be compiled
 as a library?
>>>
>>> It could be, as long as it's not installed in a system-wide location.
>>> My point was that you don't need any exceptions to include the
>>> gnome-volume-control library in your package.
>> According to
>> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging:No_Bundled_Libraries#Exceptions,
> For some reasons, this currently is inaccessible (Error 503) ;)
Access to some services appear to be intermittent, likely due to the F21
release :p
> 
>> "Exceptions are granted on a case-by-case basis by FPC.  You can look
>> in the following section for help on making a case for why an
>> exception should be granted. You should open up a ticket in the FPC's
>> trac with information asked for below. " and below is a section called
>> "Some reasons you might be granted an exception" with a "Copylibs"
>> subheading. So Unless I'm confusing something, an FPC stamp is still
>> needed.
> 
> Yes. We (FPC) usually examines those cases, and either grants a copylib
> exception (I.e. mandates these packages to be add Provided: bundled(...)
> or these packages to be converted to provide/shared libs).
> 
> Please file an FPC ticket to initiate this process.
> 
>>> It's copy/pasted in the control-center package (that's the original
>>> code),
>>> in gnome-settings-daemon and in gnome-shell.
> ;)
> 
FPC ticket opened: https://fedorahosted.org/fpc/ticket/476

Regards,

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Re: "Workstation" Product defaults to wide-open firewall

[Bastien Nocera]

- Original Message -
> On 10 December 2014 at 00:43, Bastien Nocera  wrote:
> >
> >
> > - Original Message -
> >> On 9 December 2014 at 13:47, Matthew Miller 
> >> wrote:
> >> > On Tue, Dec 09, 2014 at 01:11:33PM +, Ian Malone wrote:
> >> >> > have a proposal for a new spin focused on privacy and security — the
> >> >> > Netizen Spin. (If you're interested, I think that could use
> >> >> > additional
> >> >> > contributors.)
> >> >> I was under the impression spins were to be phased out. I could be
> >> >> wrong, the discussion was about the time of the product proposal.
> >> >
> >> > That's wrong; the clear outcome of that discussion was that we want to
> >> > keep them, and provide more flexiblity and opportunity for spins
> >> > maintainers as well.
> >> >
> >>
> >> Well that's some good news to come out of this at least.
> >>
> >> > Everyone knows that there are improvements to be made, but it's _not_
> >> > an easy problem. Contributions are welcome towards making that better
> >> > for F22 and beyond. (Use cases. Design mockups. Code)
> >> >
> >>
> >> Rather time poor at the moment and not a gnome developer
> >> unfortunately. Does rather sound like things like rygel need fixed,
> >> but as I have no intention of ever using it I'm not highly motivated
> >> to do something about it.
> >
> > Just like Reindl you make the mistake of thinking that rygel needs to be
> > fixed
> > or that it's the only service impacted by this scheme. It's not, and it was
> > pointed out in earlier mails.
> >
> 
> You're sniping at me now, and making assumptions. So I get to do this,
> please read the fedora code of conduct and be awesome!
> http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct

Given the amount of time I've thrown into this dead-end thread, I think
I'm already pretty awesome.

> I have skimmed the links you listed. Like I said, time poor.

You'll accuse me of being rude again, but if you can't read 3 pages of text
because of the lack of time, maybe spending that time throwing factually
and technically incorrect suggestions on the list shouldn't top of your
TODO list.

> I see no
> explanation of why rygel needs a random port or why it cannot supply
> that information to firewalld. The same goes for any others that have
> random ports.

Because that's the mechanism the kernel offers for applications when selecting a
port isn't important, the high port isn't defined by the IANA, and the specs
(DLNA/UPnP in this case) don't force particular ports to be opened.

Even if we chose static ports for those (or rather port ranges, because if you
have multiple users running, you'd need multiple ports), leaving only those 
ports
opened wouldn't stop other random applications from choosing those ports to
do something nefarious. You're just limiting the availability of ports without
increasing security.
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Re: "Workstation" Product defaults to wide-open firewall

[Bastien Nocera]

- Original Message -
> 
> Am 10.12.2014 um 06:08 schrieb Simo Sorce:
> > Most users have no idea what NAT, TCP or ports are
> 
> sadly yes
> 
> > nor should they!
> 
> *they should* damned
> 
> people should stop to evangelize that users do not need to know anything
> and then design operating systems based on that self-fulfilling prophecy

You've made that clear, and that's the opposite of our goals. I don't think 
there's
anything else you could add to this conversation.
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Re: "Workstation" Product defaults to wide-open firewall

[Bastien Nocera]

- Original Message -
> Bastien Nocera wrote:
> > For example, RTSP streaming, Rhythmbox remote control for iOS, music
> > sharing via DAAP, DLNA sharing via rygel, but also DLNA client usage
> > (through Videos), and VNC are impacted. This is a non-exhaustive list for
> > the default applications in the Workstation version.
> 
> VNC?! You think it's a good idea to allow REMOTE CONTROLLING YOUR DESKTOP by
> default???

No, it's disabled by default, obviously.

> As for the insecure file sharing protocols, I also expect those to be
> blocked, and I also question the need for even shipping those by default.
> There is one reasonably-secure file sharing protocol we support out of the
> box: SFTP.

That means making a whole account accessible, and sharing either its password
or private key. That's not what the WebDAV share setup by gnome-user-share does.
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Re: "Workstation" Product defaults to wide-open firewall

[Reindl Harald]

Am 10.12.2014 um 12:47 schrieb Bastien Nocera:

Even if we chose static ports for those (or rather port ranges, because if you
have multiple users running, you'd need multiple ports), leaving only those 
ports
opened wouldn't stop other random applications from choosing those ports to
do something nefarious. You're just limiting the availability of ports without
increasing security


in other words you see the attack surface is the same if you can choose 
any random port with a wild guess or need at least to know something 
about the target system?


not that security by obsucrity alone helps much *but* any piece making 
intrusion harder helps and the overall security is defined by the 
summary of all pieces given that 100% security don't exist


and even if there is some hole it makes a difference how easy is it to 
find or let the attacker just move to a more open target


security is all about making things harder as long as you need a network 
connection and can't go offline




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rawhide report: 20141210 changes

[Fedora Rawhide Report]

Compose started at Wed Dec 10 05:15:03 UTC 2014
Broken deps for i386
--
[3Depict]
3Depict-0.0.16-3.fc22.i686 requires libmgl.so.7.2.0
[Sprog]
Sprog-0.14-27.fc20.noarch requires perl(:MODULE_COMPAT_5.18.0)
[bibletime]
bibletime-2.10.1-4.fc22.i686 requires libsword-1.7.3.so
[cab]
cab-0.1.9-12.fc22.i686 requires cabal-dev
[calligra]
calligra-kexi-map-form-widget-2.8.7-1.fc22.i686 requires 
libmarblewidget.so.19
calligra-reports-map-element-2.8.7-1.fc22.i686 requires 
libmarblewidget.so.19
calligra-semanticitems-2.8.7-1.fc22.i686 requires libmarblewidget.so.19
[digikam]
libkgeomap-4.5.0-2.fc22.i686 requires libmarblewidget.so.19
[dnssec-check]
dnssec-check-1.14.0.1-4.fc20.i686 requires libval-threads.so.14
dnssec-check-1.14.0.1-4.fc20.i686 requires libsres.so.14
[glances]
glances-2.1.2-2.fc22.noarch requires python-psutil >= 0:2.0.0
[kaccessible]
kaccessible-libs-14.11.97-1.fc22.i686 requires kdelibs4(x86-32) >= 
0:14.11.97
[kdeplasma-addons]
plasma-wallpaper-marble-4.14.3-1.fc22.i686 requires 
libmarblewidget.so.19
[kphotoalbum]
kphotoalbum-4.5-3.fc22.i686 requires libmarblewidget.so.19
[nwchem]
nwchem-openmpi-6.3.2-11.fc21.i686 requires libmpi_usempi.so.1
[openstack-neutron-gbp]
openstack-neutron-gbp-2014.2-0.2.acb85f0git.fc22.noarch requires 
openstack-neutron = 0:2014.2
[pam_mapi]
pam_mapi-0.2.0-3.fc22.i686 requires libmapi.so.0
[python-selenium]
python3-selenium-2.43.0-1.fc22.noarch requires python3-rdflib
[rubygem-wirb]
rubygem-wirb-1.0.3-2.fc21.noarch requires rubygem(paint) < 0:0.9
[shogun]
shogun-doc-3.2.0.1-0.27.git20140804.96f3cf3.fc22.noarch requires 
shogun-data = 0:0.8.1-0.18.git20140804.48a1abb.fc22
[subsurface]
subsurface-4.2-3.fc22.i686 requires libmarblewidget.so.19
[uwsgi]
uwsgi-plugin-gridfs-2.0.7-2.fc22.i686 requires libmongoclient.so
uwsgi-stats-pusher-mongodb-2.0.7-2.fc22.i686 requires libmongoclient.so
[vfrnav]
vfrnav-20140510-2.fc22.i686 requires libpolyclipping.so.16
vfrnav-utils-20140510-2.fc22.i686 requires libpolyclipping.so.16
[wine]
wine-1.7.32-1.fc22.i686 requires mingw32-wine-gecko = 0:2.34
[xiphos]
xiphos-3.2.2-2.fc22.i686 requires libsword-1.7.3.so



Broken deps for x86_64
--
[3Depict]
3Depict-0.0.16-3.fc22.x86_64 requires libmgl.so.7.2.0()(64bit)
[Sprog]
Sprog-0.14-27.fc20.noarch requires perl(:MODULE_COMPAT_5.18.0)
[bibletime]
bibletime-2.10.1-4.fc22.x86_64 requires libsword-1.7.3.so()(64bit)
[cab]
cab-0.1.9-12.fc22.x86_64 requires cabal-dev
[calligra]
calligra-kexi-map-form-widget-2.8.7-1.fc22.x86_64 requires 
libmarblewidget.so.19()(64bit)
calligra-reports-map-element-2.8.7-1.fc22.x86_64 requires 
libmarblewidget.so.19()(64bit)
calligra-semanticitems-2.8.7-1.fc22.x86_64 requires 
libmarblewidget.so.19()(64bit)
[digikam]
libkgeomap-4.5.0-2.fc22.i686 requires libmarblewidget.so.19
libkgeomap-4.5.0-2.fc22.x86_64 requires libmarblewidget.so.19()(64bit)
[dnssec-check]
dnssec-check-1.14.0.1-4.fc20.x86_64 requires 
libval-threads.so.14()(64bit)
dnssec-check-1.14.0.1-4.fc20.x86_64 requires libsres.so.14()(64bit)
[glances]
glances-2.1.2-2.fc22.noarch requires python-psutil >= 0:2.0.0
[kaccessible]
kaccessible-libs-14.11.97-1.fc22.i686 requires kdelibs4(x86-32) >= 
0:14.11.97
kaccessible-libs-14.11.97-1.fc22.x86_64 requires kdelibs4(x86-64) >= 
0:14.11.97
[kdeplasma-addons]
plasma-wallpaper-marble-4.14.3-1.fc22.x86_64 requires 
libmarblewidget.so.19()(64bit)
[kphotoalbum]
kphotoalbum-4.5-3.fc22.x86_64 requires libmarblewidget.so.19()(64bit)
[nwchem]
nwchem-openmpi-6.3.2-11.fc21.x86_64 requires libmpi_usempi.so.1()(64bit)
[openstack-neutron-gbp]
openstack-neutron-gbp-2014.2-0.2.acb85f0git.fc22.noarch requires 
openstack-neutron = 0:2014.2
[pam_mapi]
pam_mapi-0.2.0-3.fc22.i686 requires libmapi.so.0
pam_mapi-0.2.0-3.fc22.x86_64 requires libmapi.so.0()(64bit)
[python-selenium]
python3-selenium-2.43.0-1.fc22.noarch requires python3-rdflib
[rubygem-wirb]
rubygem-wirb-1.0.3-2.fc21.noarch requires rubygem(paint) < 0:0.9
[shogun]
shogun-doc-3.2.0.1-0.27.git20140804.96f3cf3.fc22.noarch requires 
shogun-data = 0:0.8.1-0.18.git20140804.48a1abb.fc22
[subsurface]
subsurface-4.2-3.fc22.x86_64 requires libmarblewidget.so.19()(64bit)
[uwsgi]
uwsgi-plugin-gridfs-2.0.7-2.fc22.x86_64 requires 
libmongoclient.so()(64bit)
uwsgi-stats-pusher-mongodb-2.0.7-2.fc22.x86_64 requires 
libmongoclient.so()(64bit)
[vfrnav]
vfrnav-20140510-2.fc22.i686 requires libpolyclipping.so.16
vfrnav-20140510-2.fc22.x86_64 requires libpolyclipping.so.16()(64bit)
vfrnav-utils-

Other download options

[Maros Zatko]

Hi everyone,

I've noticed that "other" download options besides LIVE images are now gone 
from the website.
Can you please explain how should (normal) user find non-LIVE image links there?
I know this has been (probably intentionally) obfuscated before.
Please put it back, even as obfuscated as it used to be. Or wanting to have a 
choice is too much?

thx
- maros
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Re: Other download options

[Reindl Harald]

Am 10.12.2014 um 13:43 schrieb Maros Zatko:

Hi everyone,

I've noticed that "other" download options besides LIVE images are now gone 
from the website.
Can you please explain how should (normal) user find non-LIVE image links there?
I know this has been (probably intentionally) obfuscated before.
Please put it back, even as obfuscated as it used to be. Or wanting to have a 
choice is too much?


why not just scroll down?
there is a big "Download" list in the footer

Get Fedora Workstation
Get Fedora Server
Get Fedora Cloud
Fedora Spins
Torrent Downloads




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Re: Allow internet/network access based on binary -- ask user for permission if a binary wants to connect to the internet

[Stephen Gallagher]

On Tue, 2014-12-09 at 08:39 -0500, Daniel J Walsh wrote:
> You can do this with SELinux and confined users somewhat.
> 
> YOU basically could setup a user as xguest with no network access and
> then write
> policy to transition to certain domains that can use the internet.  No
> ability to prompt the user
> though.
> 
> This will get you most of the way you want to go, but somethings can be
> tricky.
> 
> Also lots of apps contact the network just by calling getpw* calls, if
> you have certain settings in nsswitch.


And by "certain settings" he means "default settings", because
nsswitch.conf defaults to using the 'dns' library for host lookup, which
means that any gethostby*() call will hit the network.

As for users and groups, most modern systems don't hit the network
directly anymore. The SSSD, Winbind and nss-pam-ldapd projects all
provide a separate, privileged daemon to perform the actual network
lookup, meaning that the application doesn't do it directly.

Now, if the system is using the old nss_ldap instead of nss-pam-ldapd,
that could be an issue, but I don't think we even ship that in Fedora
anymore.


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Re: "Workstation" Product defaults to wide-open firewall

[Robert Marcano]

On 12/10/2014 12:38 AM, Simo Sorce wrote:

On Wed, 10 Dec 2014 05:46:32 +0100
Kevin Kofler  wrote:


Pete Travis wrote:

Lets say I do have an understanding of network basics, just for the
sake of argument.  I share my application with you.  The
application is intended to listen on the network, you know this and
want the application for that purpose.  You run the application, it
tries to listen to a network port.


But as you wrote the application, you know which one, so you just
tell me the port number, and I open it up in a few clicks in the
firewall. (Plus, I will also have to set up port forwarding for that
port in my cable modem's integrated NAT router anyway, so an insecure
local firewall won't make the application work without you telling me
the port anyway.) I don't feel inconvenienced at all, it's obvious to
me. If it were not, you could tell me, or just document what is
needed in your documentation.


As much as I do not like an insecure default, I think you have not
clear what is the average technical capability of users.

Most users have no idea what NAT, TCP or ports are (nor should they!).
At most they understand *literally* a question like: "do you want this
 to be allowed to access the network ?" and you better
name the app in the same way the GUI does it (not the binary name) or
quite a few will be confused about what this is all about.


the naming thing is not the most difficult one, GNOME Shell already do 
that to group windows and find the correct icon to show opened Windows 
on the launch bar, It search .desktop files. There are still problems 
with applications launched from vm like executables, for example JNLP 
launched java applications, but if that is good enough for Shell, it 
should be enough for a network permission UI.




The problem for the "workstation" people is to build enough
infrastructure to make those simple questions and be able to act on
them, anything in that direction will help, otherwise you are just
ranting.

Simo.



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Re: "Workstation" Product defaults to wide-open firewall

[Robert Marcano]

On 12/10/2014 12:01 AM, Kevin Kofler wrote:

Stephen John Smoogen wrote:

In the end, this is a tempest in a teapot. The release is out and it is
done.


The release is out, but there are an expected 13 months of security updates,
of which this ought to be the first.


and there is a precedent of security policies being reverted by a patch: 
Allow all user to install applications from repositories, was reverted, 
and a few Fedora releases later, the right thing was done, implement UI 
to define Administrator users that permissions granted




 Kevin Kofler



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Re: "Workstation" Product defaults to wide-open firewall

[Michael Catanzaro]

On Wed, 2014-12-10 at 05:57 +0100, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> VNC?! You think it's a good idea to allow REMOTE CONTROLLING YOUR
> DESKTOP by 
> default???

The firewall must not block VNC. VNC is a GNOME feature and it must work
if enabled. It's disabled by default, because it'd be stupid to have it
enabled.


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Upgrading cloog to 0.18.1 for {,cross-}{gcc,binutils}

[David Howells]

Would there be any problem with upgrading cloog to 0.18.1 so that binutils,
gcc, cross-binutils and cross-gcc can use it?  Also, should I put isl-0.12.2
into it's own package or should it be added to cloog?

Or should I make a gcc-cloog (and gcc-isl)?

David
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Re: Other download options

[Nikos Roussos]

Speaking of F21 downloads, how is that the fedoraproject.org redirects
to getfedora.org? Is this something permanent?



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Is ARM productized?

[Nikos Roussos]

Having some hard time to discover the ARM F21 image at the new website.
Is the link somewhere and I completely missed it?

I found the ARM images directly from the ftp
http://alt.fedoraproject.org/pub/fedora/linux/releases/21/Images/armhfp/

But as a general question is ARM productized? Would it make sense to
have Workstation or Server images for ARM?



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Re: Upgrading cloog to 0.18.1 for {,cross-}{gcc,binutils}

[Jakub Jelinek]

On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 01:13:54PM +, David Howells wrote:
> Would there be any problem with upgrading cloog to 0.18.1 so that binutils,
> gcc, cross-binutils and cross-gcc can use it?  Also, should I put isl-0.12.2
> into it's own package or should it be added to cloog?
> 
> Or should I make a gcc-cloog (and gcc-isl)?

At this point it would probably be better to use git trunk cloog with
isl 0.14, since this Monday even gcc 4.8.x should support that combination.

Please make sure
http://repo.or.cz/w/cloog.git/commit/2d8b7c6b43ee46fee978a57fa6877de49675f357
http://repo.or.cz/w/cloog.git/commit/22643c94eba7b010ae4401c347289f4f52b9cd2b
fixes are in.

What do binutils need cloog/isl for btw?

Jakub
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Re: Other download options

[Maros Zatko]

> From: "Reindl Harald" 
> To: devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
> Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2014 1:54:29 PM
> Subject: Re: Other download options
> 
> 
> Am 10.12.2014 um 13:43 schrieb Maros Zatko:
> > Hi everyone,
> >
> > I've noticed that "other" download options besides LIVE images are now gone
> > from the website.
> > Can you please explain how should (normal) user find non-LIVE image links
> > there?
> > I know this has been (probably intentionally) obfuscated before.
> > Please put it back, even as obfuscated as it used to be. Or wanting to have
> > a choice is too much?
> 
> why not just scroll down?
> there is a big "Download" list in the footer
> 
>  Get Fedora Workstation
>  Get Fedora Server
>  Get Fedora Cloud
>  Fedora Spins
>  Torrent Downloads

Yes, there is netinstall in the Server variant, I suppose it's not the same as
Workstation one and (as a user) I'm getting pretty confused now :)

> 
> 
> 
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Re: "Workstation" Product defaults to wide-open firewall

[Kevin Kofler]

Bastien Nocera wrote:
> Even if we chose static ports for those (or rather port ranges, because if
> you have multiple users running, you'd need multiple ports), leaving only
> those ports opened wouldn't stop other random applications from choosing
> those ports to do something nefarious. You're just limiting the
> availability of ports without increasing security.

That's why we should only keep ports open that are actually reserved at boot 
time by systemwide services. User sessions should NEVER be open to the 
network, at least not in the default firewall configuration.

Kevin Kofler

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Re: Other download options

[Reindl Harald]

Am 10.12.2014 um 14:27 schrieb Maros Zatko:

From: "Reindl Harald" 
Am 10.12.2014 um 13:43 schrieb Maros Zatko:

Hi everyone,

I've noticed that "other" download options besides LIVE images are now gone
from the website.
Can you please explain how should (normal) user find non-LIVE image links
there?
I know this has been (probably intentionally) obfuscated before.
Please put it back, even as obfuscated as it used to be. Or wanting to have
a choice is too much?


why not just scroll down?
there is a big "Download" list in the footer

  Get Fedora Workstation
  Get Fedora Server
  Get Fedora Cloud
  Fedora Spins
  Torrent Downloads


Yes, there is netinstall in the Server variant, I suppose it's not the same as
Workstation one and (as a user) I'm getting pretty confused now :)


http://torrents.fedoraproject.org/



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Re: Upgrading cloog to 0.18.1 for {,cross-}{gcc,binutils}

[David Howells]

Jakub Jelinek  wrote:

> What do binutils need cloog/isl for btw?

I'm not sure, but in binutils/configure, I see:

with_cloog
with_isl
with_isl_include
with_isl_lib
enable_isl_version_check
with_cloog_include
with_cloog_lib
enable_cloog_version_check

It's possible it doesn't actually use cloog:

warthog2>grep -rl cloog *
ChangeLog
config/ChangeLog
config/cloog.m4
config/isl.m4
configure
configure.ac
Makefile.def
Makefile.in
Makefile.tpl

'isl' turns up a lot more (it matches things like 'islower'), but excluding
most obvious false positives shows that isl probably isn't actually used
either.

David
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Re: Poll: How users use DNF

[Kevin Kofler]

Petr Spacek wrote:
> I would be happy if
> $ yum reinstall ~/rpmbuild/RPMS/*/*
> reinstalled/upgradeed/downgraded only packages which are actually
> installed and ignored the rest.

In this case, you should be able to just use rpm -Fvh. (I assume the 
dependencies are already installed, which is likely to be the case if you 
already have a different version of the same package.)

Kevin Kofler

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Re: Upgrading cloog to 0.18.1 for {,cross-}{gcc,binutils}

[Jakub Jelinek]

On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 01:31:45PM +, David Howells wrote:
> Jakub Jelinek  wrote:
> 
> > What do binutils need cloog/isl for btw?
> 
> I'm not sure, but in binutils/configure, I see:
> 
>   with_cloog
>   with_isl
>   with_isl_include
>   with_isl_lib
>   enable_isl_version_check
>   with_cloog_include
>   with_cloog_lib
>   enable_cloog_version_check

The toplevel configure is shared with gcc.  That doesn't mean anything
built in binutils actually uses it.

> It's possible it doesn't actually use cloog:
> 
>   warthog2>grep -rl cloog *
>   ChangeLog
>   config/ChangeLog
>   config/cloog.m4
>   config/isl.m4
>   configure
>   configure.ac
>   Makefile.def
>   Makefile.in
>   Makefile.tpl
> 
> 'isl' turns up a lot more (it matches things like 'islower'), but excluding
> most obvious false positives shows that isl probably isn't actually used
> either.

BTW, cloog 0.18.3 has been released 2 days ago, perhaps it is usable with
latest 4.8.x/4.9.x.  Note GCC 5.x will only need isl and not cloog.

Jakub
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Re: Is ARM productized?

[Stephen Gallagher]

On Wed, 2014-12-10 at 15:21 +0200, Nikos Roussos wrote:
> Having some hard time to discover the ARM F21 image at the new website.
> Is the link somewhere and I completely missed it?
> 
> I found the ARM images directly from the ftp
> http://alt.fedoraproject.org/pub/fedora/linux/releases/21/Images/armhfp/
> 
> But as a general question is ARM productized? Would it make sense to
> have Workstation or Server images for ARM?

The Fedora Server has an install tree for ARM devices that can boot the
installer from the network:

http://download.fedoraproject.org/pub/fedora/linux//releases/21/Server/armhfp/os/


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Re: Other download options

[Maros Zatko]

> From: "Reindl Harald" 
> To: devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
> Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2014 2:29:09 PM
> Subject: Re: Other download options
> 
> 
> Am 10.12.2014 um 14:27 schrieb Maros Zatko:
> >> From: "Reindl Harald" 
> >> Am 10.12.2014 um 13:43 schrieb Maros Zatko:
> >>> Hi everyone,
> >>>
> >>> I've noticed that "other" download options besides LIVE images are now
> >>> gone
> >>> from the website.
> >>> Can you please explain how should (normal) user find non-LIVE image links
> >>> there?
> >>> I know this has been (probably intentionally) obfuscated before.
> >>> Please put it back, even as obfuscated as it used to be. Or wanting to
> >>> have
> >>> a choice is too much?
> >>
> >> why not just scroll down?
> >> there is a big "Download" list in the footer
> >>
> >>   Get Fedora Workstation
> >>   Get Fedora Server
> >>   Get Fedora Cloud
> >>   Fedora Spins
> >>   Torrent Downloads
> >
> > Yes, there is netinstall in the Server variant, I suppose it's not the same
> > as
> > Workstation one and (as a user) I'm getting pretty confused now :)
> 
> http://torrents.fedoraproject.org/
> 

Thanks!!! As a joke, this is getting better and better since there is no 
torrent for netinstall at all.
Och yes, and it's not even Friday, yet!

:D

> 
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Re: introducing alternatives into a package

[Kevin Kofler]

Jens Petersen wrote:
> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging:Alternatives explains how
> alternatives should be done in Fedora, however it does not seem to
> address the case of converting an existing package to use alternatives.

The solution to problems with alternatives is usually to just not use 
alternatives to begin with.

It is a very broken concept that almost never makes sense. The biggest issue 
is that alternative selection is systemwide.

Kevin Kofler

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Re: introducing alternatives into a package

[Stephen Gallagher]

On Wed, 2014-12-10 at 04:09 -0500, Jens Petersen wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging:Alternatives explains how
> alternatives should be done in Fedora, however it does not seem to
> address the case of converting an existing package to use alternatives.
> 
> Specifically the problem arises when a file is changed to become a %ghost.
> It seems rpm keeps the old file around as a ghost and so update-alternatives
> does not create the new symlink.
> 
> I remember this happening when emacs introduced alternatives
> a good while back: at the time I worked around it just by removing
> emacs and reinstalling it.
> 
> Adding:
> 
> %pre
> if [ $1 -gt 1 ] ; then
>   if [ -f %{_bindir}/%{name} -a ! -L %{_bindir}/%{name} ]; then
>   rm %{_bindir}/%{name}
>   fi
> fi
> 
> seems to be one way to handle this.
> 
> Is there any better way to do this or is the above solution good enough?
> 
> If so maybe I should ask FPC about updating Packaging:Alternatives to
> include this.  (I kind of wish these kind of idioms would be defined
> as rpm macros.)
> 
> Jens

I'm CCing this to the packag...@lists.fedoraproject.org mailing list, as
you're more likely to get a useful response from there.


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Re: Other download options

[drago01]

On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 2:27 PM, Maros Zatko  wrote:
>> From: "Reindl Harald" 
>> To: devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2014 1:54:29 PM
>> Subject: Re: Other download options
>>
>>
>> Am 10.12.2014 um 13:43 schrieb Maros Zatko:
>> > Hi everyone,
>> >
>> > I've noticed that "other" download options besides LIVE images are now gone
>> > from the website.
>> > Can you please explain how should (normal) user find non-LIVE image links
>> > there?
>> > I know this has been (probably intentionally) obfuscated before.
>> > Please put it back, even as obfuscated as it used to be. Or wanting to have
>> > a choice is too much?
>>
>> why not just scroll down?
>> there is a big "Download" list in the footer
>>
>>  Get Fedora Workstation
>>  Get Fedora Server
>>  Get Fedora Cloud
>>  Fedora Spins
>>  Torrent Downloads
>
> Yes, there is netinstall in the Server variant, I suppose it's not the same as
> Workstation [...]

The name is misleading ... the netinstall can install anything like in
the "old days".
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Re: Other download options

[Vít Ondruch]

Dne 10.12.2014 v 14:38 Maros Zatko napsal(a):
>> From: "Reindl Harald" 
>> To: devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2014 2:29:09 PM
>> Subject: Re: Other download options
>>
>>
>> Am 10.12.2014 um 14:27 schrieb Maros Zatko:
 From: "Reindl Harald" 
 Am 10.12.2014 um 13:43 schrieb Maros Zatko:
> Hi everyone,
>
> I've noticed that "other" download options besides LIVE images are now
> gone
> from the website.
> Can you please explain how should (normal) user find non-LIVE image links
> there?
> I know this has been (probably intentionally) obfuscated before.
> Please put it back, even as obfuscated as it used to be. Or wanting to
> have
> a choice is too much?
 why not just scroll down?
 there is a big "Download" list in the footer

   Get Fedora Workstation
   Get Fedora Server
   Get Fedora Cloud
   Fedora Spins
   Torrent Downloads
>>> Yes, there is netinstall in the Server variant, I suppose it's not the same
>>> as
>>> Workstation one and (as a user) I'm getting pretty confused now :)
>> http://torrents.fedoraproject.org/
>>
> Thanks!!! As a joke, this is getting better and better since there is no 
> torrent for netinstall at all.
> Och yes, and it's not even Friday, yet!
>
> :D
>

Cloud and Server have netinst, Workstation does not have:

http://download.fedoraproject.org/pub/fedora/linux/releases/21/


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Re: "Workstation" Product defaults to wide-open firewall

[Jiri Popelka]

On 12/09/2014 07:54 PM, Kevin Kofler wrote:

Stephen Gallagher wrote:

   services: dhcpv6-client dns freeipa-ldap freeipa-ldaps samba-client
ssh


With the default Workstation policy, does that enumerate all 129022 open
unprivileged ports?


# firewall-cmd --list-all
FedoraWorkstation (active)
  ...
  ports: 1025-65535/udp 1025-65535/tcp


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Re: Upgrading cloog to 0.18.1 for {,cross-}{gcc,binutils}

[David Howells]

Jakub Jelinek  wrote:

> The toplevel configure is shared with gcc.  That doesn't mean anything
> built in binutils actually uses it.

Ah, ok.

> BTW, cloog 0.18.3 has been released 2 days ago, perhaps it is usable with
> latest 4.8.x/4.9.x.  Note GCC 5.x will only need isl and not cloog.

Sounds like ISL should be its own package then.  Does gcc need patching to use
isl-0.14?

David
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Re: Upgrading cloog to 0.18.1 for {,cross-}{gcc,binutils}

[Jakub Jelinek]

On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 01:58:19PM +, David Howells wrote:
> Jakub Jelinek  wrote:
> 
> > The toplevel configure is shared with gcc.  That doesn't mean anything
> > built in binutils actually uses it.
> 
> Ah, ok.
> 
> > BTW, cloog 0.18.3 has been released 2 days ago, perhaps it is usable with
> > latest 4.8.x/4.9.x.  Note GCC 5.x will only need isl and not cloog.
> 
> Sounds like ISL should be its own package then.  Does gcc need patching to use
> isl-0.14?

GCC 4.8 branch before http://gcc.gnu.org/r218481 and
GCC 4.9 branch before http://gcc.gnu.org/r218392 do need patching, later
ones don't.  But, supposedly when changing gcc rpms to use the system
cloog/isl, they will be also updated to use newer upstream snapshot...

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Re: Upgrading cloog to 0.18.1 for {,cross-}{gcc,binutils}

[David Howells]

Jakub Jelinek  wrote:

> What do binutils need cloog/isl for btw?

Hmmm...

/usr/lib64/libisl.so.13.1.0-gdb.py
/usr/lib64/libisl.so.13.1.0-gdb.pyc
/usr/lib64/libisl.so.13.1.0-gdb.pyo

David
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Meeting minutes from Env-and-Stacks WG meeting (2014-12-10)

[Honza Horak]

#fedora-meeting: Env and Stacks (2014-12-10)



Meeting started by hhorak at 12:01:52 UTC. The full logs are available
at
http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting/2014-12-10/env-and-stacks.2014-12-10-12.01.log.html
.



Meeting summary
---
* welcoming...  (hhorak, 12:02:19)

* Follow-up: languages repositories  (hhorak, 12:03:52)
  * devpi was chosen for proof-of-concept just because it was first on
mind, but it might be pulp in the future  (hhorak, 12:09:00)
  * devpi doesn't allow saying "these packages can't be mirrored"; a bug
upstream is opened, work in progress  (hhorak, 12:12:32)
  * PoC with devpi makes sense, since it's already native to the Python
ecosystem and hence avoids Pulp plugin limitations as a potentially
confounding factor; thus let's keep working on the devpi pilot and
also keep an eye on pulp_python  (hhorak, 12:18:07)
  * good news is, that if something is *in* our devpi instance, devpi
won't update it from pypi unless we tell it to using pypi_whitelist
(hhorak, 12:23:27)
  * LINK:

https://bitbucket.org/hpk42/devpi/issue/198/whitelisting-packages-that-can-be-mirrored
(hhorak, 12:26:17)
  * ACTION: bkabrda will list requirements/news learned for devpi on the
LSR project page  (hhorak, 12:30:03)
  * ACTION: bkabrda will prepare a draft document about what/how we want
to mirror/prebuild on the pilot devpi instance  (bkabrda, 12:32:01)
  * ACTION: bkabrda will find out whether devpi can mirror pulp's
pulp_python repo  (bkabrda, 12:44:31)
  * LINK: http://doc.devpi.net/latest/quickstart-releaseprocess.html
(hhorak, 12:53:35)

* Follow-up:SCLs  (hhorak, 12:54:33)

Meeting ended at 13:20:46 UTC.




Action Items

* bkabrda will list requirements/news learned for devpi on the LSR
  project page
* bkabrda will prepare a draft document about what/how we want to
  mirror/prebuild on the pilot devpi instance
* bkabrda will find out whether devpi can mirror pulp's pulp_python repo




Action Items, by person
---
* bkabrda
  * bkabrda will list requirements/news learned for devpi on the LSR
project page
  * bkabrda will prepare a draft document about what/how we want to
mirror/prebuild on the pilot devpi instance
  * bkabrda will find out whether devpi can mirror pulp's pulp_python
repo
* **UNASSIGNED**
  * (none)




People Present (lines said)
---
* bkabrda (48)
* ncoghlan (43)
* hhorak (34)
* jzeleny (29)
* langdon (11)
* juhp_ (8)
* zodbot (4)
* vpavlin (3)
* nphilipp (1)
* samkottler (0)
* tjanez (0)
* sicampbell (0)
* juhp (0)
* pkovar (0)




Generated by `MeetBot`_ 0.1.4

.. _`MeetBot`: http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot
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Re: Poll: How users use DNF

[Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek]

On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 02:32:35PM +0100, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> Petr Spacek wrote:
> > I would be happy if
> > $ yum reinstall ~/rpmbuild/RPMS/*/*
> > reinstalled/upgradeed/downgraded only packages which are actually
> > installed and ignored the rest.
> 
> In this case, you should be able to just use rpm -Fvh. (I assume the 
> dependencies are already installed, which is likely to be the case if you 
> already have a different version of the same package.)
I use rpm -Fvh too, but it's not always convenient. It'll only install
*newer* packages, and it will not install dependencies. E.g. for python
packages, dependencies often do not have to be installed during build,
so even if building a package, not everything required for installation
is there.

Zbyszek
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Re: Poll: How users use DNF

[Daniel P. Berrange]

On Tue, Dec 09, 2014 at 12:28:54PM -0500, Radek Holy wrote:
> Please share with me the use cases, not the description of the "install"
> command. Think twice before you share something because I believe it's
> not as easy as it might seem. As an example I think it might be something
> like:
> 
> - "I call YUM install, because I want to get given packages into my system
>and I don't care whether it requires an upgrade or downgrade or what." or
> - "I want to get them there but it should protect me against dangerous
>operations like downgrades" or
> - "I often make typos, so I expect that the program knows what I mean" or
> - "it would be nice if it would literally perform the installation; if any
>of the packages cannot be installed because of any reason, it should fail".

OpenStack's  devstack.sh deployment script makes use of YUM for two
core tasks.

First it wants to ensure a set of packages exist on the host and wants
to see an error exit status if any of the packages requested are not
present after the command completes. Currently it uses 'install' for
this but has to grep stderr for "No package" to see if YUM claimed
success when it in fact failed to install some of the packages [1].

Second it wants to be able to be to ensure a package is not present
on a server. ie if the package is not installed currently that's fine,
but if it is installed it must be removed. It wants to have an error
status only if the package is installed and cannot be removed.

In both cases it needs to operate non-interactively with no user
prompting.

Regards,
Daniel

[1] https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=965567
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Re: Poll: How users use DNF

[Orion Poplawski]

On 12/09/2014 05:48 PM, Oron Peled wrote:
> OK, this isn't a direct DNF/YUM item, but still...
> 
> I have several workstations/laptops with the same Fedora version (currently 
> 20):
>  * Downloading the same RPM's/DRPM's for each of these hosts is a huge waste.
>  * OTOH, I haven't found a no-brainer yum-proxy (a-la Debian's apt-proxy
>or apt-cacher-ng)

FWIW - I still use InstantMirror, despite its warts:

https://github.com/opoplawski/InstantMirror

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Re: Other download options

[Jerry James]

On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 6:27 AM, Maros Zatko  wrote:
> Yes, there is netinstall in the Server variant, I suppose it's not the same as
> Workstation one and (as a user) I'm getting pretty confused now :)

I'm getting kind of confused myself.  I want to grab an image to throw
onto an old machine for my kids to use.  I just want a desktop with a
web browser and a mail client.  Workstation isn't suitable; they
aren't developers (yet).  Server and Cloud are definitely right out.
I don't want a Live CD; I want to actually install.  (In the past,
installing from a Live CD left one with different defaults than an
install from DVD, so I've learned to avoid the Live CD.  Perhaps that
reflex is now wrong.)  I guess I could go with one of the spins, but I
don't see a GNOME spin anywhere.  Is there really no DVD image for a
generic GNOME desktop install?  Maybe I should make Kevin happy and
get the KDE spin. :-)

Actually, the KDE, Xfce, LXDE, and Mate spins all seem likely to fit
my use case, but I'm very surprised that there isn't a GNOME
equivalent.  Or is there?  If there is, I can't tell from the
information on getfedora.org.  What are we recommending for people who
want to install a generic "access the Internet" type of environment
for non-techies?  None of the products obviously address that
audience.
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Re: Self Introduction: Vladimir Stackov

[Matthew Miller]

On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 02:06:25PM +0400, Vladimir Stackov wrote:
> I'm glad to introduce myself to you.
> I'm 15+ years developer/admin with mainly perl-experience (also I
> write on C#/C/C++/Java) and would to like to make a contribution to
> Fedora.
> I'm going to maintain zbackup package for Fedora and EPEL.
> I'm also one of the zbackup contributors and one of two zbackup
> upstream maintainers.

Hi, and welcome! zbackup looks really cool. Have you thought about
adding Reed-Solomon codes as a built-in feature for error correction?


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Re: Other download options

[Michael Catanzaro]

On Wed, 2014-12-10 at 09:52 -0700, Jerry James wrote:
> Workstation isn't suitable; they
> aren't developers (yet).  Server and Cloud are definitely right out.
> I don't want a Live CD; I want to actually install.  (In the past,
> installing from a Live CD left one with different defaults than an
> install from DVD, so I've learned to avoid the Live CD.  Perhaps that
> reflex is now wrong.)

Yes, this has always been a problem, one that has been solved by
removing everything except the live CD. :p

> I guess I could go with one of the spins, but I
> don't see a GNOME spin anywhere.  Is there really no DVD image for a
> generic GNOME desktop install?

This would be redundant with Fedora Workstation. Workstation is what you
want to download. We want it to be great for developers, but it's not
for developers only: your confusion indicates that we have not been
successful at marketing it as such.


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Re: Other download options

[Kevin Fenzi]

On Wed, 10 Dec 2014 09:52:05 -0700
Jerry James  wrote:

> On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 6:27 AM, Maros Zatko 
> wrote:
> > Yes, there is netinstall in the Server variant, I suppose it's not
> > the same as Workstation one and (as a user) I'm getting pretty
> > confused now :)
> 
> I'm getting kind of confused myself.  I want to grab an image to throw
> onto an old machine for my kids to use.  I just want a desktop with a
> web browser and a mail client.  Workstation isn't suitable; they
> aren't developers (yet).  

Workstation is not "only for developers". Developers are someone the
workstation working group is targeting, but you don't have to be a
developer. Many of the same things developers want/need are things your
kids might want/need as well. 

> Server and Cloud are definitely right out.
> I don't want a Live CD; I want to actually install.  (In the past,
> installing from a Live CD left one with different defaults than an
> install from DVD, so I've learned to avoid the Live CD.  Perhaps that
> reflex is now wrong.)  

I'd suggest so. The installer is the same in both, there's some
details that are different, but the live media can install just fine. 

>I guess I could go with one of the spins, but I
> don't see a GNOME spin anywhere.  Is there really no DVD image for a
> generic GNOME desktop install?  Maybe I should make Kevin happy and
> get the KDE spin. :-)

You could get any one of the spins and just install gnome-desktop from
there. Or workstation. Or KDE or anything in the package collection. 
> 
> Actually, the KDE, Xfce, LXDE, and Mate spins all seem likely to fit
> my use case, but I'm very surprised that there isn't a GNOME
> equivalent.  Or is there?  If there is, I can't tell from the
> information on getfedora.org.  What are we recommending for people who
> want to install a generic "access the Internet" type of environment
> for non-techies?  None of the products obviously address that
> audience.

The workstation media should work fine for that... it seems the
marketing around it isn't conveying that well. 

For your case, I'd just install (using whatever) and install all the
desktops and try them out and see which one meets your needs best. 

kevin


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Re: Other download options

[Mike Pinkerton]

On 10 Dec 2014, at 11:52, Jerry James wrote:

On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 6:27 AM, Maros Zatko   
wrote:
Yes, there is netinstall in the Server variant, I suppose it's not  
the same as

Workstation one and (as a user) I'm getting pretty confused now :)


I'm getting kind of confused myself.  I want to grab an image to throw
onto an old machine for my kids to use.  I just want a desktop with a
web browser and a mail client.  Workstation isn't suitable; they
aren't developers (yet).  Server and Cloud are definitely right out.
I don't want a Live CD; I want to actually install.  (In the past,
installing from a Live CD left one with different defaults than an
install from DVD, so I've learned to avoid the Live CD.  Perhaps that
reflex is now wrong.)  I guess I could go with one of the spins, but I
don't see a GNOME spin anywhere.  Is there really no DVD image for a
generic GNOME desktop install?  Maybe I should make Kevin happy and
get the KDE spin. :-)

Actually, the KDE, Xfce, LXDE, and Mate spins all seem likely to fit
my use case, but I'm very surprised that there isn't a GNOME
equivalent.  Or is there?  If there is, I can't tell from the
information on getfedora.org.  What are we recommending for people who
want to install a generic "access the Internet" type of environment
for non-techies?  None of the products obviously address that
audience.


This issue has been addressed tangentially in the marathon  
"Workstation defaults to wide-open firewall" thread.


As best I can tell from Matthew Miller's responses there, Fedora has  
abandoned that portion of its previous user base that was using  
Fedora as a general, secure by default, Gnome desktop OS.  Those  
users are no longer supported by any Fedora product.


I also am trying to figure out how I can use Fedora going forward to  
support general desktop requirements for SMB office workers, creative  
types and others who have heretofore been using Fedora as a general,  
secure by default, Gnome desktop OS.  The only ideas I have come up  
with so far are:


•  Install Fedora 20, update it, then fedup to "nonproduct" variant  
of Fedora 21; or


•  Use the server net install to install a minimal system as a  
"nonproduct" variant of Fedora 21, and then install a long list of  
packages needed to convert it into a general desktop OS.


I have not yet tested and don't know how practical either of those  
ideas is.


My users are accustomed to Gnome, so I prefer not to change to one of  
the alternative desktop environment spins if there is an easy way  
forward with Gnome.


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Re: Other download options

[Ben Cotton]

On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 12:47 PM, Mike Pinkerton
 wrote:
> I also am trying to figure out how I can use Fedora going forward to support
> general desktop requirements for SMB office workers, creative types and
> others who have heretofore been using Fedora as a general, secure by
> default, Gnome desktop OS.  The only ideas I have come up with so far are:

Why not the Workstation product with a firewall configuration more to
your liking? Is there something besides the firewall that causes
Fedora 21 Workstation to not meet your needs?


Thanks,
BC

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Re: Poll: How users use DNF

[Richard W.M. Jones]

I found your email a bit confusing, so hopefully this is what you
are after:

(1) virt-builder --install is implemented using 'yum install'

(2) virt-customize --install is implemented using 'yum install'

For (1) and (2) I intend to replace yum with dnf when the guest
version is Fedora >= 22 (or 23?)

(3) virt-v2v uses 'yum install' and 'yum resolvedep' both for very
complicated reasons.  It may be best just to read the source:

https://github.com/libguestfs/libguestfs/blob/master/v2v/convert_linux.ml

(4) supermin uses yumdownloader.  We would like to replace it with
'dnf download' except that it is broken (RHBZ#1157233).

Rich.

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Re: Poll: How users use DNF

[Richard W.M. Jones]

On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 06:04:00AM +0100, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> Przemek Klosowski wrote:
> > I have mixed feelings for the typo correction/suggestions for arguments
> > providing package names: I am glad they are case-insensitive because
> > case conventions in package names are all over the place. On the other
> > hand I am concerned about possible mistakes (I want to 'install foo' but
> > mistype it as 'boo' and end up installing 'bugaboo').
> 
> Indeed, autocorrection should never be done without confirmation (and in 
> non-interactive mode ("dnf -y"), it should probably just fail). It's just 
> too likely to accidentally give the wrong answer.

There should definitely be the equivalent of 'dnf --do-exactly-what-i-say'
so that we can use it from scripts and programs.

Also (as yum is not careful about this):

 - Always send errors to stderr and ordinary output to stdout

 - Return a non-zero exit code on failure

 - Make sure ^C works

Rich.

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Re: Poll: How users use DNF

[Richard W.M. Jones]

On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 05:56:43PM +, Richard W.M. Jones wrote:
> I found your email a bit confusing, so hopefully this is what you
> are after:
> 
> (1) virt-builder --install is implemented using 'yum install'
> 
> (2) virt-customize --install is implemented using 'yum install'

More precisely it's 'yum -y install '

I forgot: There is also an --update flag for both of these
commands, currently implemented using 'yum -y update'.

Rich.

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Re: Other download options

[Mike Pinkerton]

On 10 Dec 2014, at 12:52, Ben Cotton wrote:


On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 12:47 PM, Mike Pinkerton
 wrote:
I also am trying to figure out how I can use Fedora going forward  
to support
general desktop requirements for SMB office workers, creative  
types and

others who have heretofore been using Fedora as a general, secure by
default, Gnome desktop OS.  The only ideas I have come up with so  
far are:


Why not the Workstation product with a firewall configuration more to
your liking? Is there something besides the firewall that causes
Fedora 21 Workstation to not meet your needs?


Primarily the uncertainty of what changes the Workstation WG has  
made, coupled with Matthew Miller's comments that:


"Right now, 'desktop system with a security focus for new users'  
isn't a key part of that effort. ... So, if you're not in the target  
of that focus, where do you look? Well, you can certainly pick one of  
our other desktop spins ..."  None of those spins is Gnome-based.


For office workers, creative types and similar, there is always a  
mixture of new and old users, a mixture of savvy and not, and always  
a few folks who, unless prevented, would do incredibly stupid things  
that put your whole network at risk.  Security is always a prime  
concern.


I would not have known about the firewall issue if Kevin Kofler had  
not kindly flagged it to this list.  If the Workstation WG is willing  
to implement such a basic change with little notice -- and the two  
sentences in the Release Notes don't give adequate notice that Fedora  
has switched from a "secure by default" to an "insecure by default"  
firewall configuration -- then I can't trust the Workstation product  
until I can audit all of its configurations to determine where and  
how they differ from those I can support for my users.  I don't have  
the time to do that.


I also don't know whether Workstation updates will pull in other  
similarly bad ideas in the future, and whether I would have to re- 
audit all of the configuration after each update.


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Re: Self Introduction: Vladimir Stackov

[Vladimir Stackov]

Thank you!

Yes, it will be implemented till v1.7-1.8.

2014-12-10 20:10 GMT+03:00 Matthew Miller :

> On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 02:06:25PM +0400, Vladimir Stackov wrote:
> > I'm glad to introduce myself to you.
> > I'm 15+ years developer/admin with mainly perl-experience (also I
> > write on C#/C/C++/Java) and would to like to make a contribution to
> > Fedora.
> > I'm going to maintain zbackup package for Fedora and EPEL.
> > I'm also one of the zbackup contributors and one of two zbackup
> > upstream maintainers.
>
> Hi, and welcome! zbackup looks really cool. Have you thought about
> adding Reed-Solomon codes as a built-in feature for error correction?
>
>
> --
> Matthew Miller
> 
> Fedora Project Leader
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Владимир.
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Re: Other download options

[Michael Catanzaro]

On Wed, 2014-12-10 at 13:19 -0500, Mike Pinkerton wrote:
> Primarily the uncertainty of what changes the Workstation WG has  
> made, coupled with Matthew Miller's comments that:
> 
> "Right now, 'desktop system with a security focus for new users'  
> isn't a key part of that effort. ... So, if you're not in the target  
> of that focus, where do you look? Well, you can certainly pick one of  
> our other desktop spins ..."  None of those spins is Gnome-based.

Well frankly, I'm going to take a rare opportunity to disagree with
Matthew: building a desktop system with a security focus for new users
is *exactly* what we're trying to do. I also do not agree that a
restrictive firewall configuration would make accomplish this goal. That
discussion is best left to the thread on devel@


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Re: Other download options

[Pete Travis]

On Dec 10, 2014 10:47 AM, "Mike Pinkerton"  wrote:
>
>
> On 10 Dec 2014, at 11:52, Jerry James wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 6:27 AM, Maros Zatko  wrote:
>>>
>>> Yes, there is netinstall in the Server variant, I suppose it's not the
same as
>>> Workstation one and (as a user) I'm getting pretty confused now :)
>>
>>
>> I'm getting kind of confused myself.  I want to grab an image to throw
>> onto an old machine for my kids to use.  I just want a desktop with a
>> web browser and a mail client.  Workstation isn't suitable; they
>> aren't developers (yet).  Server and Cloud are definitely right out.
>> I don't want a Live CD; I want to actually install.  (In the past,
>> installing from a Live CD left one with different defaults than an
>> install from DVD, so I've learned to avoid the Live CD.  Perhaps that
>> reflex is now wrong.)  I guess I could go with one of the spins, but I
>> don't see a GNOME spin anywhere.  Is there really no DVD image for a
>> generic GNOME desktop install?  Maybe I should make Kevin happy and
>> get the KDE spin. :-)
>>
>> Actually, the KDE, Xfce, LXDE, and Mate spins all seem likely to fit
>> my use case, but I'm very surprised that there isn't a GNOME
>> equivalent.  Or is there?  If there is, I can't tell from the
>> information on getfedora.org.  What are we recommending for people who
>> want to install a generic "access the Internet" type of environment
>> for non-techies?  None of the products obviously address that
>> audience.
>
>
> This issue has been addressed tangentially in the marathon "Workstation
defaults to wide-open firewall" thread.
>
> As best I can tell from Matthew Miller's responses there, Fedora has
abandoned that portion of its previous user base that was using Fedora as a
general, secure by default, Gnome desktop OS.  Those users are no longer
supported by any Fedora product.
>
> I also am trying to figure out how I can use Fedora going forward to
support general desktop requirements for SMB office workers, creative types
and others who have heretofore been using Fedora as a general, secure by
default, Gnome desktop OS.  The only ideas I have come up with so far are:
>
> •  Install Fedora 20, update it, then fedup to "nonproduct" variant of
Fedora 21; or
>
> •  Use the server net install to install a minimal system as a
"nonproduct" variant of Fedora 21, and then install a long list of packages
needed to convert it into a general desktop OS.
>
> I have not yet tested and don't know how practical either of those ideas
is.
>
> My users are accustomed to Gnome, so I prefer not to change to one of the
alternative desktop environment spins if there is an easy way forward with
Gnome.
>
> --
> Mike Pinkerton
>

I have a lot of tools.  Mechanics tools, woodworking tools, electronics
tools, plumbing tools, whatever.  I don't drive over to the nearest
hardware store and buy whatever they have on the shelf that fits the
general description of "saw" or "torque wrench" or "multimeter".  I do some
research, find quality products, and usually end up with something targeted
towards "professionals" or "contractors" or whatever.  I'm not going to
compromise my standards because I encounter a product that isn't marketed
for "occasional semi-skilled use".

Friends and family (at least, those that don't think the same way) end up
borrowing my tools, even when they already have a saw or nailer or
whatever.  The tools they end up with just aren't as good.  Often, their
grabbed-off-the-shelf tools break more easily and sooner, while mine
operate reliably through hard use.  The experience is just more pleasant,
the user more productive, the quality of the end product noticeably better.

An OS is also a tool.  You don't have to be a professional developer to
enjoy the benefits of a product targeted for professional developers.  You
don't have to choose your experience based on the target audience of some
marketing copy.  If the product works for you, and works well, use it.
(Obligatory aside - if you are a professional developer, and you prefer an
alternative DE, Fedora works for you too :)

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[perl-Catalyst-Plugin-SubRequest] Apply patch by the Debian maintainer to make this package's tests run with Catalyst 5.90006x (brc #1

[Emmanuel Seyman]

commit 13182c18a8ce46b62617213ae1c8b3b44ffedcb2
Author: Emmanuel Seyman 
Date:   Wed Dec 10 20:03:17 2014 +0100

Apply patch by the Debian maintainer to make this package's tests run with 
Catalyst 5.90006x (brc #1172196, rco #94392).

 perl-Catalyst-Plugin-SubRequest.spec |   27 +--
 1 files changed, 17 insertions(+), 10 deletions(-)
---
diff --git a/perl-Catalyst-Plugin-SubRequest.spec 
b/perl-Catalyst-Plugin-SubRequest.spec
index da5e7e1..7b380d5 100644
--- a/perl-Catalyst-Plugin-SubRequest.spec
+++ b/perl-Catalyst-Plugin-SubRequest.spec
@@ -1,11 +1,14 @@
 Name:   perl-Catalyst-Plugin-SubRequest
 Summary:Make subrequests to actions in Catalyst
 Version:0.20
-Release:6%{?dist}
+Release:7%{?dist}
 License:GPL+ or Artistic
 Group:  Development/Libraries
 Source0:
http://search.cpan.org/CPAN/authors/id/E/ED/EDENC/Catalyst-Plugin-SubRequest-%{version}.tar.gz
 URL:http://search.cpan.org/dist/Catalyst-Plugin-SubRequest/
+# Patch taken from the debian package of this module
+# See rt.cpan.org #94392 for details
+Patch0: Catalyst-Plugin-SubRequest-5.9.patch
 Requires:   perl(:MODULE_COMPAT_%(eval "`%{__perl} -V:version`"; echo 
$version))
 BuildArch:  noarch
 
@@ -15,15 +18,11 @@ BuildRequires:  perl(HTTP::Date)
 BuildRequires:  perl(HTTP::Request::AsCGI)
 BuildRequires:  perl(Test::More)
 BuildRequires:  perl(Test::Pod)
+BuildRequires:  perl(Test::Pod::Coverage)
 BuildRequires:  perl(Time::HiRes)
 
 Requires:   perl(Catalyst::Runtime) >= 5.9
 
-# obsolete/provide old tests subpackage
-# can be removed during F19 development cycle
-Obsoletes:  %{name}-tests < 0.17-3
-Provides:   %{name}-tests = %{version}-%{release}
-
 %{?perl_default_filter}
 
 %description
@@ -32,6 +31,7 @@ it will work like an external url call.
 
 %prep
 %setup -q -n Catalyst-Plugin-SubRequest-%{version}
+%patch0 -p1
 
 %build
 %{__perl} Makefile.PL INSTALLDIRS=vendor
@@ -46,14 +46,21 @@ find %{buildroot} -depth -type d -exec rmdir {} 2>/dev/null 
\;
 %{_fixperms} %{buildroot}/*
 
 %check
-make test
+TEST_POD=1 make test
 
 %files
-%doc Changes README t/
-%{perl_vendorlib}/*
-%{_mandir}/man3/*
+%doc Changes README
+%{perl_vendorlib}/Catalyst*
+%{_mandir}/man3/Catalyst*
 
 %changelog
+* Wed Dec 10 2014 Emmanuel Seyman  - 0.20-7
+- Apply Debian patch to make tests pass (#1172196)
+- Run all tests
+- Remove tests sub-package
+- Remove tests from documentation
+- Tighten file listing
+
 * Tue Sep 02 2014 Jitka Plesnikova  - 0.20-6
 - Perl 5.20 rebuild
 
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fedup speed

[Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek]

Hi,
I run fedup on a beefy desktop machine (SSD 450MB/s, 24GB ram, 12 cores),
and started wondering why is takes so much time (1.5h or thereabouts for
~4500 packages). I noticed two things:

1. installing packages used just 1 core, and actually not even not at 100%,
   and about 15MB/s were written to the disk.
   perf top said that time was spent mostly in lzma_decode.
   Is this expected?

2. at the end, fedup creates a log by running 'journalctl -a -m',
   which is --all --merge. This seems a bit excessive. On this machine
   I have 4.5 GB of logs from this machine, plus a few GB more from
   other sources. journalctl is not very fast (which is another issue),
   but even if it was, dumping all this is bound to be slow, and not
   particularly useful. 

?

Zbyszek
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Reminder: Fedora 19 end of life on 2015-01-06

[Dennis Gilmore]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Greetings. 

This is a reminder email about the end of life process for Fedora 19.

Fedora 19 will reach end of life on 2015-01-06, and no further updates
will be pushed out after that time. Additionally, with the recent
release of Fedora 21, no new packages will be added to the Fedora 19
collection. 

Please see http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DistributionUpgrades for more
information on upgrading from Fedora 19 to a newer release. 


Dennis
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Re: Other download options

[Matthew Miller]

On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 12:47:20PM -0500, Mike Pinkerton wrote:
> As best I can tell from Matthew Miller's responses there, Fedora has
> abandoned that portion of its previous user base that was using
> Fedora as a general, secure by default, Gnome desktop OS. 

That's _very much_ not what I said.

> Those users are no longer supported by any Fedora product.

Fedora has never had anything like the new Cloud/Server/Workstation.
Existing users are supported in the same way they always have been.

Installing Workstation and applying 

> •  Install Fedora 20, update it, then fedup to "nonproduct" variant
> of Fedora 21; or

I don't really understand the logic here. Why would you go that route?
This seems like a very catastrophic overreaction. Have you tried Fedora
21 Workstation?

Installing Workstation and applying whatever changes you prefer to
rearch your target seems like the easiest path. But...

> •  Use the server net install to install a minimal system as a
> "nonproduct" variant of Fedora 21, and then install a long list of
> packages needed to convert it into a general desktop OS.

... this is also a good approach. It's definitely what I've always done
in creating systems for people I needed to support. But "long list"
seems to again be catastrophizing the situation. We have packages
grouped in comps and in install environments so it's really not all
that complicated.

> My users are accustomed to Gnome, so I prefer not to change to one
> of the alternative desktop environment spins if there is an easy way
> forward with Gnome.

If you, or any other collaborators, would like to build a GNOME-based
spin targeting a different use case, not only is there nothing stopping
you, it's encouraged. Take a look here:
. It's
not that difficult (basically, the same as the above in kickstart form,
plus the commitment to keep it up to date and do minimal testing).


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Re: Poll: How users use DNF

[Igor Gnatenko]

On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 9:05 PM, Richard W.M. Jones  wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 05:56:43PM +, Richard W.M. Jones wrote:
>> I found your email a bit confusing, so hopefully this is what you
>> are after:
>>
>> (1) virt-builder --install is implemented using 'yum install'
>>
>> (2) virt-customize --install is implemented using 'yum install'
>
> More precisely it's 'yum -y install '
>
> I forgot: There is also an --update flag for both of these
> commands, currently implemented using 'yum -y update'.
yes, you can. you can also do this via dnf API ;)
>
> Rich.
>
> --
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> Read my programming and virtualization blog: http://rwmj.wordpress.com
> virt-builder quickly builds VMs from scratch
> http://libguestfs.org/virt-builder.1.html
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Re: fedup speed

[Josh Stone]

On 12/10/2014 11:18 AM, Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek wrote:
> 2. at the end, fedup creates a log by running 'journalctl -a -m',
>which is --all --merge. This seems a bit excessive. On this machine
>I have 4.5 GB of logs from this machine, plus a few GB more from
>other sources. journalctl is not very fast (which is another issue),
>but even if it was, dumping all this is bound to be slow, and not
>particularly useful. 

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1161366

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Re: Reminder: Fedora 19 end of life on 2015-01-06

[Josh Boyer]

On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 1:17 PM, Dennis Gilmore  wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Greetings.
>
> This is a reminder email about the end of life process for Fedora 19.
>
> Fedora 19 will reach end of life on 2015-01-06, and no further updates
> will be pushed out after that time. Additionally, with the recent
> release of Fedora 21, no new packages will be added to the Fedora 19
> collection.

Do you know when the last day to submit updates for F19 is?  I suppose
realistically getting an update into updates-testing a week before
would be required but I'd like to know when the last stable push will
be.

josh
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Re: Other download options

[Ben Cotton]

On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 1:19 PM, Mike Pinkerton  wrote:

> Primarily the uncertainty of what changes the Workstation WG has made,
> coupled with Matthew Miller's comments that:
>
> 
>
> I also don't know whether Workstation updates will pull in other similarly
> bad ideas in the future, and whether I would have to re-audit all of the
> configuration after each update.
>
I understand the frustration. This case has pointed out some areas
where the communications process could be improved (though I expect
the number of subscribers to the workstation mailing list has gone up
dramatically in the last few days). Your reasons for avoiding using
Workstation don't seem that new, though. Changes have always been able
to pass under the radar, either because of process failure, or the
simple fact of missing the email thread. Going forward, I'd hope the
WGs will use this as an example to better communicate WG-specific
changes, but relying on out-of-the-box configuration to match your
desired state doesn't seem sustainable.


Thanks,
BC

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Schedule for Thursday's FPC Meeting (2014-12-11 17:00 UTC)

[James Antill]

 Following is the list of topics that will be discussed in the FPC
meeting Thursday at 2014-12-11 17:00 UTC in #fedora-meeting-1 on
irc.freenode.net.

 Local time information (via. rktime):

2014-12-11 09:00 Thu US/Pacific PST
2014-12-11 12:00 Thu US/Eastern EST
2014-12-11 17:00 Thu UTC <-
2014-12-11 17:00 Thu Europe/London <-
2014-12-11 18:00 Thu Europe/Paris   CET
2014-12-11 18:00 Thu Europe/Berlin  CET
2014-12-11 22:30 Thu Asia/Calcutta  IST
--new day--
2014-12-12 01:00 Fri Asia/Singapore SGT
2014-12-12 01:00 Fri Asia/Hong_Kong HKT
2014-12-12 02:00 Fri Asia/Tokyo JST
2014-12-12 03:00 Fri Australia/Brisbane EST

 Links to all tickets below can be found at: 

https://fedorahosted.org/fpc/report/12

= Followups =

(needed policy, feature not accepted yet)
#topic #466 recommend Privatedevices and PrivateNetwork in systemd
guidelines
.fpc 466
https://fedorahosted.org/fpc/ticket/466

(needinfo, just package dep?)
#topic #468 Temporary modernizr packing exception for kimchi
.fpc 468
https://fedorahosted.org/fpc/ticket/468

= New business =

None

= Open Floor = 

 For more complete details, please visit each individual ticket.  The
report of the agenda items can be found at:

https://fedorahosted.org/fpc/report/12


 If you would like to add something to this agenda, you can reply to
this e-mail, file a new ticket at https://fedorahosted.org/fpc,
e-mail me directly, or bring it up at the end of the meeting, during
the open floor topic. Note that added topics may be deferred until
the following meeting.
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Re: Schedule for Thursday's FPC Meeting (2014-12-11 17:00 UTC)

[Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek]

On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 03:09:08PM -0500, James Antill wrote:
>  Following is the list of topics that will be discussed in the FPC
> meeting Thursday at 2014-12-11 17:00 UTC in #fedora-meeting-1 on
> irc.freenode.net.
Can https://fedorahosted.org/fpc/ticket/476 be added?

Zbyszek
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Re: "Workstation" Product defaults to wide-open firewall

[Stephen John Smoogen]

On 9 December 2014 at 21:31, Kevin Kofler  wrote:

> Stephen John Smoogen wrote:
> > In the end, this is a tempest in a teapot. The release is out and it is
> > done.
>
> The release is out, but there are an expected 13 months of security
> updates,
> of which this ought to be the first.
>
>
And as long as your actions come across as "Your idiots and wrong" it isn't
going to happen.

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Re: Schedule for Wednesday's FESCo Meeting (2014-12-10)

[Tomas Hozza]

On 12/09/2014 07:22 PM, Tomas Hozza wrote:
> Following is the list of topics that will be discussed in the FESCo
> meeting Wednesday at 18:00UTC in #fedora-meeting on irc.freenode.net.
>
> To convert UTC to your local time, take a look at
>   http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/UTCHowto
>
> or run:
>   date -d '2014-12-10 18:00 UTC'
>
>
> Links to all tickets below can be found at:
> https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/report/9
>
> = Followups =
>
> #topic #1349 Fedora 22 scheduling strategy (and beyond)
> .fesco 1349
> https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1349
>
> = New business =
>
> #topic #1370 requesting exception for linking include-what-you-use with 
> llvm-static
> .fesco 1370
> https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1370
>
> #topic #1371 Nonresponsive maintainer: clockfor
> .fesco 1371
> https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1371
>
> = Open Floor =
>
> For more complete details, please visit each individual ticket.  The
> report of the agenda items can be found at
> https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/report/9
>
> If you would like to add something to this agenda, you can reply to
> this e-mail, file a new ticket at https://fedorahosted.org/fesco,
> e-mail me directly, or bring it up at the end of the meeting, during
> the open floor topic. Note that added topics may be deferred until
> the following meeting.
>
===
#fedora-meeting: FESCO (2014-12-10)
===


Meeting started by thozza at 18:00:43 UTC. The full logs are available
at
http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting/2014-12-10/fesco.2014-12-10-18.00.log.html
.



Meeting summary
---
* init process  (thozza, 18:00:44)

* init process  (thozza, 18:01:17)

* #1349 Fedora 22 scheduling strategy (and beyond)  (thozza, 18:07:31)
  * AGREED: Postpone the ticket to next week's meeting since mattdm
can't attend today's meeting (+6, 0, -0)  (thozza, 18:12:07)

* #1370 requesting exception for linking include-what-you-use with
  llvm-static  (thozza, 18:12:18)
  * AGREED: close and ask them to talk to FPC? (+5, 0, -0)  (thozza,
18:18:35)

* #1371 Nonresponsive maintainer: clockfor  (thozza, 18:18:43)
  * AGREED: Reassign python-pyudev to dshea (+5, 0, -0)  (thozza,
18:20:51)

* Next week's chair  (thozza, 18:21:12)
  * nirik to chair next week's meeting  (thozza, 18:23:04)

* Open Floor  (thozza, 18:23:14)
  * FESCo thanks everyone for great Fedora 21 release!  (thozza,
18:24:08)

Meeting ended at 18:26:43 UTC.




Action Items






Action Items, by person
---
* **UNASSIGNED**
  * (none)




People Present (lines said)
---
* thozza (40)
* nirik (9)
* zodbot (8)
* mattdm (7)
* kalev (7)
* sgallagh (6)
* t8m (5)
* jwboyer (3)
* dgilmore (1)
* mmaslano (0)
* mitr (0)
* stickster (0)
* jwb (0)




Generated by `MeetBot`_ 0.1.4

.. _`MeetBot`: http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot
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Re: Reminder: Fedora 19 end of life on 2015-01-06

[Dennis Gilmore]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Wed, 10 Dec 2014 15:18:52 -0500
Josh Boyer  wrote:

> On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 1:17 PM, Dennis Gilmore 
> wrote:
> > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> > Hash: SHA1
> >
> > Greetings.
> >
> > This is a reminder email about the end of life process for Fedora
> > 19.
> >
> > Fedora 19 will reach end of life on 2015-01-06, and no further
> > updates will be pushed out after that time. Additionally, with the
> > recent release of Fedora 21, no new packages will be added to the
> > Fedora 19 collection.
> 
> Do you know when the last day to submit updates for F19 is?  I suppose
> realistically getting an update into updates-testing a week before
> would be required but I'd like to know when the last stable push will
> be.
> 
> josh

The last push will happen on Jan 5th so it will need to be requested
for stable before then.

Dennis
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fedup FC20 -> FC21 update conflicts

[Przemek Klosowski]

I have a fairly standard FC20 setup which I started upgrading by

fedup  --network 21 --product=workstation

There were 109 packages for which there was no upgrade; 62 are 
*-debuginfo, 12 are from various oddball repos (adobe, simulavr, etc), 
but 36 are I believe regular Fedora Core 20 packages, including fairly 
important ones like 8 related to the R language.


Two of those result in packaging conflicts and fedup warns about 
'upgrade at your own risk':


icedtea-web-1.5.2-0.fc20.x86_64 requires 
java-1.7.0-openjdk-1:1.7.0.71-2.5.3.0.fc20.x86_64


R-core-3.1.2-1.fc20.x86_64 requires tk-1:8.5.14-1.fc20.x86_64, 
tcl-1:8.5.14-1.fc20.x86_64, libicu-50.1.2-10.fc20.x86_64


I imagine there will be fc21 packages for those eventually, so should I 
file a bugzilla report on it, or go ahead with the install and wait for 
the new versions?  If reporting, would it be against fedup or specific 
packages?



 yum list icedtea-web R-core java-1.7.0-openjdk tk tcl libicu

returns:

Loaded plugins: auto-update-debuginfo, langpacks, refresh-packagekit
Installed Packages
R-core.x86_64 3.1.2-1.fc20@updates
icedtea-web.x86_64  1.5.2-0.fc20 @updates
java-1.7.0-openjdk.x86_64 1:1.7.0.71-2.5.3.0.fc20@updates
libicu.i686 50.1.2-10.fc20  installed
libicu.x86_64 50.1.2-10.fc20  installed
tcl.x86_64 1:8.5.14-1.fc20  installed
tk.x86_64 1:8.5.14-1.fc20  installed

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Re: fedup FC20 -> FC21 update conflicts

[Samuel Sieb]

On 12/10/2014 01:36 PM, Przemek Klosowski wrote:

I imagine there will be fc21 packages for those eventually, so should I
file a bugzilla report on it, or go ahead with the install and wait for
the new versions?  If reporting, would it be against fedup or specific
packages?


Try adding --enablerepo=updates-testing to the fedup command line.
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Re: Poll: How users use DNF

[Marcin Juszkiewicz]

W dniu 10.12.2014 o 01:48, Oron Peled pisze:
> I have several workstations/laptops with the same Fedora version (currently 
> 20):
>  * Downloading the same RPM's/DRPM's for each of these hosts is a huge waste.

I am using web proxy on Synology NAS at home and all my Fedora machines
use it for dnf/yum fetching. With on-disk cache set to 10GB it makes all
system upgrades and mock builds very fast.

Used apt-cacher-ng before went to Fedora. Still miss it. Especially
connected with 'check-for-aptcacherng-over-avahi' plugin.
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Re: Poll: How users use DNF

[Samuel Sieb]

On 12/10/2014 02:09 PM, Marcin Juszkiewicz wrote:

I am using web proxy on Synology NAS at home and all my Fedora machines
use it for dnf/yum fetching. With on-disk cache set to 10GB it makes all
system upgrades and mock builds very fast.

How does the proxy work with the various mirrors?  Do you have client 
side settings to deal with that?


I wrote my own proxy in python that is specifically for yum and matches 
filenames from any url.  It's quite a hack and fails once in a while, 
but it saves me a huge amount of time and bandwidth with the large 
amount of Fedora computers I manage.  I suppose I could mirror the whole 
thing locally, but this way I only download the packages I need as I 
need them.

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Re: Reminder: Fedora 19 end of life on 2015-01-06

[Josh Boyer]

On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 3:39 PM, Dennis Gilmore  wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On Wed, 10 Dec 2014 15:18:52 -0500
> Josh Boyer  wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 1:17 PM, Dennis Gilmore 
>> wrote:
>> > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
>> > Hash: SHA1
>> >
>> > Greetings.
>> >
>> > This is a reminder email about the end of life process for Fedora
>> > 19.
>> >
>> > Fedora 19 will reach end of life on 2015-01-06, and no further
>> > updates will be pushed out after that time. Additionally, with the
>> > recent release of Fedora 21, no new packages will be added to the
>> > Fedora 19 collection.
>>
>> Do you know when the last day to submit updates for F19 is?  I suppose
>> realistically getting an update into updates-testing a week before
>> would be required but I'd like to know when the last stable push will
>> be.
>>
>> josh
>
> The last push will happen on Jan 5th so it will need to be requested
> for stable before then.

Excellent, thanks.

josh
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Re: "Workstation" Product defaults to wide-open firewall

[Ian Malone]

On 10 December 2014 at 11:47, Bastien Nocera  wrote:
>
>
> - Original Message -
>> On 10 December 2014 at 00:43, Bastien Nocera  wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > - Original Message -
>> >> On 9 December 2014 at 13:47, Matthew Miller 
>> >> wrote:
>> >> > On Tue, Dec 09, 2014 at 01:11:33PM +, Ian Malone wrote:
>> >> >> > have a proposal for a new spin focused on privacy and security — the
>> >> >> > Netizen Spin. (If you're interested, I think that could use
>> >> >> > additional
>> >> >> > contributors.)
>> >> >> I was under the impression spins were to be phased out. I could be
>> >> >> wrong, the discussion was about the time of the product proposal.
>> >> >
>> >> > That's wrong; the clear outcome of that discussion was that we want to
>> >> > keep them, and provide more flexiblity and opportunity for spins
>> >> > maintainers as well.
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> Well that's some good news to come out of this at least.
>> >>
>> >> > Everyone knows that there are improvements to be made, but it's _not_
>> >> > an easy problem. Contributions are welcome towards making that better
>> >> > for F22 and beyond. (Use cases. Design mockups. Code)
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> Rather time poor at the moment and not a gnome developer
>> >> unfortunately. Does rather sound like things like rygel need fixed,
>> >> but as I have no intention of ever using it I'm not highly motivated
>> >> to do something about it.
>> >
>> > Just like Reindl you make the mistake of thinking that rygel needs to be
>> > fixed
>> > or that it's the only service impacted by this scheme. It's not, and it was
>> > pointed out in earlier mails.
>> >
>>
>> You're sniping at me now, and making assumptions. So I get to do this,
>> please read the fedora code of conduct and be awesome!
>> http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
>
> Given the amount of time I've thrown into this dead-end thread, I think
> I'm already pretty awesome.
>
>> I have skimmed the links you listed. Like I said, time poor.
>
> You'll accuse me of being rude again, but if you can't read 3 pages of text
> because of the lack of time, maybe spending that time throwing factually
> and technically incorrect suggestions on the list shouldn't top of your
> TODO list.
>

Well, there are different levels I suppose. There's, "I don't have
time before work to read through three pages of chaff AND COMMENTS in
detail." As it turned out the only salient point was in a comment. The
rest was pretty irrelevant.
There's, "I don't have time in the foreseeable future to spend
learning sufficient information about the internals of the various
systems to help out with this particular problem." There's, "I used to
spend time doing spin QA, but hardware requirements are currently such
that I can't virtualise recent releases and don't have time for bare
metal testing which may change in the new year."
And there's, "I do have time to respond to an email accusing me of
making factually and technically incorrect suggestions." Because I'd
have walked away at this point if you hadn't felt like padding out
your wonderful life coaching.
(I note that I'm a saddo who doesn't know how to manage time, but
you're awesome for spending time on exactly the same thread.)

You answered precisely half of this:

>> I see no
>> explanation of why rygel needs a random port or why it cannot supply
>> that information to firewalld. The same goes for any others that have
>> random ports.
>
> Because that's the mechanism the kernel offers for applications when 
> selecting a
> port isn't important, the high port isn't defined by the IANA, and the specs
> (DLNA/UPnP in this case) don't force particular ports to be opened.
>
> Even if we chose static ports for those (or rather port ranges, because if you
> have multiple users running, you'd need multiple ports), leaving only those 
> ports
> opened wouldn't stop other random applications from choosing those ports to
> do something nefarious. You're just limiting the availability of ports without
> increasing security.

There's no predefined port. So rather than picking one, which would be
perfectly possible, any port is asked for. Yes, limiting it to one
means only one user can use it without changing those scary settings,
but how often is that actually done? Having the other ports closed
prevents unintentional exposure and also makes life harder for any
nefarious use. But this has all been pointed out already. It also, if
I understand correctly, means policies could be shipped with the
package.

But if you really want to use a random port, this is what firewalld
was for, dynamic firewall changes. In fact, a quick google finds this
bug:
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=626188
Which was showing progress towards rygel being able to do that. But
it's been closed 'next release', because apparently the ports above
1024 have been unblocked in the firewall. Except this is not a fix, as
(as we've learned) it doesn't apply to Fedora other than Desktop and
Cloud. That's an in

Re: fedup speed

[Sam Varshavchik]

Josh Stone writes:


On 12/10/2014 11:18 AM, Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek wrote:
> 2. at the end, fedup creates a log by running 'journalctl -a -m',
>which is --all --merge. This seems a bit excessive. On this machine
>I have 4.5 GB of logs from this machine, plus a few GB more from
>other sources. journalctl is not very fast (which is another issue),
>but even if it was, dumping all this is bound to be slow, and not
>particularly useful.

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1161366


In the meantime, how about adding a blurb to known issues, giving the  
systemd-fu to flush all logs, before running fedup?




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Re: Other download options

[Felix Miata]

Reindl Harald composed on 2014-12-10 13:54 (UTC+0100):

> Maros Zatko composed:

>> I've noticed that "other" download options besides LIVE images are now gone 
>> from the website.
>> Can you please explain how should (normal) user find non-LIVE image links 
>> there?
>> I know this has been (probably intentionally) obfuscated before.
>> Please put it back, even as obfuscated as it used to be. Or wanting to have 
>> a choice is too much?

> why not just scroll down?
> there is a big "Download" list in the footer

Nothing in that footer, except the amount of "whitespace", is big. The caps
heading the footer columns are smaller than default size, which masked by
gray on gray, are barely big enough to even find.

>  Get Fedora Workstation
>  Get Fedora Server
>  Get Fedora Cloud
>  Fedora Spins

Are there really people not already familiar with Fedora who would have any
clue what "spin" means in the context used?

>  Torrent Downloads

I don't know about others who think more logically than artistically, but
when I'm looking for *important* information, like how to actually acquire
that which the page is about, I don't look for or expect to find it hiding in
gray on gray mousetype[1] in the /same/ (gray) block at the bottom of a page
where normal people expect to find unimportant copyright legalese.

Without having assimilated its preceding description of "workstation", or
already being familiar with Fedora, I can perceive nothing in that list that
states or implies "general purpose" or "generic" or "basic" or "play".

Actions speak louder than words. The need to zoom 3X-6X to reach legible a
legible state belies "polished, easy to use".

[1] here, ~42.25% the size of text that would likely be optimal only if black
on white, closer to 20% of optimal size with the low contrast level actually 
used
-- 
"The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant
words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

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Re: Other download options

[Felix Miata]

Michael Catanzaro composed on 2014-12-10 18:37 (UTC+0100):

> On Wed, 2014-12-10 at 09:52 -0700, Jerry James wrote:

>> I guess I could go with one of the spins, but I
>> don't see a GNOME spin anywhere.  Is there really no DVD image for a
>> generic GNOME desktop install?

> This would be redundant with Fedora Workstation. Workstation is what you
> want to download. We want it to be great for developers, but it's not
> for developers only: your confusion indicates that we have not been
> successful at marketing it as such.

+1
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words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

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Selinux and pbuilder

[Sandro Mani]

Hi,

Before digging around more, though I'd check here if some debian+selinux 
experienced person has any ideas... I'm encountering two kinds of 
failure when using pbuilder which seem selinux related:


- When building packages for newer releases (i.e. Ubuntu >= trusty), 
pbuilder used to fail with


[...]
dpkg: error processing archive
.deb (--unpack):
 cannot get security labeling handle: No such file or directory
[...]

This looked like upstream [1], at the end of which it was suggested to 
bind-mount /sys/fs/selinux into the pbuilder chroot and remount it 
read-only. Did so, and things worked, horray.


- Today I built the package for an older release, and now, with selinux 
mounted read-only, it fails with

[...]
I: Extracting source
Password: su: Authentication failure
E: pbuilder: Failed extracting the source
[...]
Reverting the patch applied to fix the first problem (or even just not 
remounting read-only), things work again for the older releases, but 
clearly not anymore for the newer releases. There are a few reports of 
similar problems here and there ([2], old and fixed; [3], not relevant 
here, since /selinux is being mounted); [4], old an related to pam), but 
nothing recent or particularly revealing.


So in short: mounting read-only works for ubuntu >= trusty but breaks 
older, and mounting read-write works for older but breaks ubuntu >= 
trusty. (Same most likely applies to newish vs oldish debian, haven't 
tested though).



So... Any one with any ideas?

And heads up: I got overexcited with the fix for the first issue and 
already built a patched pbuilder, so if you are using pbuilder-0.215-12 
from rawhide, f21+testing or f20+testing, building packages for older 
releases will currently fail. To work around, just comment/uncomment 
line 280 of /usr/lib/pbuilder/pbuilder-modules as necessary.



Thanks,
Sandro



[1] https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=734193
[2] https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=384389
[3] https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=506917
[4] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/shadow/+bug/22739
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Re: Other download options

[Reindl Harald]

Am 11.12.2014 um 00:58 schrieb Felix Miata:

Reindl Harald composed on 2014-12-10 13:54 (UTC+0100):


Maros Zatko composed:



I've noticed that "other" download options besides LIVE images are now gone 
from the website.
Can you please explain how should (normal) user find non-LIVE image links there?
I know this has been (probably intentionally) obfuscated before.
Please put it back, even as obfuscated as it used to be. Or wanting to have a 
choice is too much?



why not just scroll down?
there is a big "Download" list in the footer


Nothing in that footer, except the amount of "whitespace", is big. The caps
heading the footer columns are smaller than default size, which masked by
gray on gray, are barely big enough to even find.


the DOWNLOADS is big, see screenshot
frankly i have a cornea implant and a plastic lens on both eyes


  Get Fedora Workstation
  Get Fedora Server
  Get Fedora Cloud
  Fedora Spins


Are there really people not already familiar with Fedora who would have any
clue what "spin" means in the context used?


  Torrent Downloads


I don't know about others who think more logically than artistically, but
when I'm looking for *important* information, like how to actually acquire
that which the page is about, I don't look for or expect to find it hiding in
gray on gray mousetype[1] in the /same/ (gray) block at the bottom of a page
where normal people expect to find unimportant copyright legalese.


well, one can also click on Workstation -> Download now


Without having assimilated its preceding description of "workstation", or
already being familiar with Fedora, I can perceive nothing in that list that
states or implies "general purpose" or "generic" or "basic" or "play".


"easy to use operating system for alptop and desktop computers" is lcear


Actions speak louder than words. The need to zoom 3X-6X to reach legible a
legible state belies "polished, easy to use".


no need to zoom anything and as said my eyes are really not good


[1] here, ~42.25% the size of text that would likely be optimal only if black
on white, closer to 20% of optimal size with the low contrast level actually 
used


really?



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Re: Other download options

[Reindl Harald]

uhm - wrong screenshot in previous message :-(

Am 11.12.2014 um 01:06 schrieb Reindl Harald:


Am 11.12.2014 um 00:58 schrieb Felix Miata:

Reindl Harald composed on 2014-12-10 13:54 (UTC+0100):


Maros Zatko composed:



I've noticed that "other" download options besides LIVE images are
now gone from the website.
Can you please explain how should (normal) user find non-LIVE image
links there?
I know this has been (probably intentionally) obfuscated before.
Please put it back, even as obfuscated as it used to be. Or wanting
to have a choice is too much?



why not just scroll down?
there is a big "Download" list in the footer


Nothing in that footer, except the amount of "whitespace", is big. The
caps
heading the footer columns are smaller than default size, which masked by
gray on gray, are barely big enough to even find.


the DOWNLOADS is big, see screenshot
frankly i have a cornea implant and a plastic lens on both eyes


  Get Fedora Workstation
  Get Fedora Server
  Get Fedora Cloud
  Fedora Spins


Are there really people not already familiar with Fedora who would
have any
clue what "spin" means in the context used?


  Torrent Downloads


I don't know about others who think more logically than artistically, but
when I'm looking for *important* information, like how to actually
acquire
that which the page is about, I don't look for or expect to find it
hiding in
gray on gray mousetype[1] in the /same/ (gray) block at the bottom of
a page
where normal people expect to find unimportant copyright legalese.


well, one can also click on Workstation -> Download now


Without having assimilated its preceding description of "workstation", or
already being familiar with Fedora, I can perceive nothing in that
list that
states or implies "general purpose" or "generic" or "basic" or "play".


"easy to use operating system for alptop and desktop computers" is lcear


Actions speak louder than words. The need to zoom 3X-6X to reach
legible a
legible state belies "polished, easy to use".


no need to zoom anything and as said my eyes are really not good


[1] here, ~42.25% the size of text that would likely be optimal only
if black
on white, closer to 20% of optimal size with the low contrast level
actually used


really?


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Re: Selinux and pbuilder

[Andrew Lutomirski]

On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 4:03 PM, Sandro Mani  wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Before digging around more, though I'd check here if some debian+selinux
> experienced person has any ideas... I'm encountering two kinds of failure
> when using pbuilder which seem selinux related:
>
> - When building packages for newer releases (i.e. Ubuntu >= trusty),
> pbuilder used to fail with
>
> [...]
> dpkg: error processing archive
> .deb (--unpack):
>  cannot get security labeling handle: No such file or directory
> [...]
>
> This looked like upstream [1], at the end of which it was suggested to
> bind-mount /sys/fs/selinux into the pbuilder chroot and remount it
> read-only. Did so, and things worked, horray.
>
> - Today I built the package for an older release, and now, with selinux
> mounted read-only, it fails with
> [...]
> I: Extracting source
> Password: su: Authentication failure

Hmm.

Can you run setpriv -d inside your chroot and see what it says?

You could also try running su directly and confirming that it works.

--Andy

> E: pbuilder: Failed extracting the source
> [...]
> Reverting the patch applied to fix the first problem (or even just not
> remounting read-only), things work again for the older releases, but clearly
> not anymore for the newer releases. There are a few reports of similar
> problems here and there ([2], old and fixed; [3], not relevant here, since
> /selinux is being mounted); [4], old an related to pam), but nothing recent
> or particularly revealing.
>
> So in short: mounting read-only works for ubuntu >= trusty but breaks older,
> and mounting read-write works for older but breaks ubuntu >= trusty. (Same
> most likely applies to newish vs oldish debian, haven't tested though).
>
>
> So... Any one with any ideas?
>
> And heads up: I got overexcited with the fix for the first issue and already
> built a patched pbuilder, so if you are using pbuilder-0.215-12 from
> rawhide, f21+testing or f20+testing, building packages for older releases
> will currently fail. To work around, just comment/uncomment line 280 of
> /usr/lib/pbuilder/pbuilder-modules as necessary.
>
>
> Thanks,
> Sandro
>
>
>
> [1] https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=734193
> [2] https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=384389
> [3] https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=506917
> [4] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/shadow/+bug/22739
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Re: fedup speed

[Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek]

On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 06:51:51PM -0500, Sam Varshavchik wrote:
> Josh Stone writes:
> 
> >On 12/10/2014 11:18 AM, Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek wrote:
> >> 2. at the end, fedup creates a log by running 'journalctl -a -m',
> >>which is --all --merge. This seems a bit excessive. On this machine
> >>I have 4.5 GB of logs from this machine, plus a few GB more from
> >>other sources. journalctl is not very fast (which is another issue),
> >>but even if it was, dumping all this is bound to be slow, and not
> >>particularly useful.
> >
> >https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1161366
> 
> In the meantime, how about adding a blurb to known issues, giving
> the systemd-fu to flush all logs, before running fedup?

Is the (almost complete) fix from
https://github.com/wgwoods/fedup-dracut/commit/cde5f2d in F20 fedup?
If yes, then it wouldn't be necessary to add this to know issues.

Zbyszek

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Re: Other download options

[Felix Miata]

[ re: https://getfedora.org/ ]

Reindl Harald composed on 2014-12-11 01:06 (UTC+0100):

> Felix Miata composed:

>> Actions speak louder than words. The need to zoom 3X-6X to reach legible a
>> legible state belies "polished, easy to use".

> no need to zoom anything and as said my eyes are really not good

Your image hasn't presented anything useful, because you offered insufficient
context to know what it is that you see when you look at what you captured.
All we know is "my eyes are not really good", whatever that means. We have no
idea what your screen size is, what your resolution is, or what the distance
between eyes and screen is. IOW, the physical size presented to you is
utterly absent. Thus there is no basis for us to determine whether what you
see would be legible outside of your personal viewspace.

>> [1] here, ~42.25% the size of text that would likely be optimal only if black
>> on white, closer to 20% of optimal size with the low contrast level actually 
>> used

> really?

Really! Here is your image as presented to me, placed at its intrinsic size
into the context of what is presented to me here by my display. In order to
actually be presented with what is presented to my eyes, one must view these
images with adequate context reproduced locally. At a minimum, such context
requires viewing the following images such that a ruler can be put on the
display screen to measure the incorporated sizing blocks at exactly the
widths indicated. Each needs to be 1" wide (aka 25.4mm) neither more, nor less.

http://fm.no-ip.com/SS/Fedora/fedoget1412-1440-144.jpg (144 DPI)
http://fm.no-ip.com/SS/Fedora/fedoget1412-2048-120.jpg (120 DPI)

What I was actually looking at while composing my previous thread message,
and this, more closely approximates the latter, in that this screen's density
is a direct match, while the former is from a 20% higher density screen. Yet
higher density screens are fairly common now. Those using them and not
applying defensive measures (e.g. zoom, disabled site styles, minimum font
size) can be expected to be experiencing even poorer legibility on loading
getfedora.org.

To provide yourself context very roughly similar to that used to make those
captures, load http://fm.no-ip.com/Tmp/sc-fedoget1412.html into a Gecko or
KHTML web browser. If your screen density isn't a match to either of those
used to make those images, you still won't be presented with what is
presented here. That's because the size of a pixel depends on screen density,
which is *a* reason why CSS should never size text or text containers in px,
as getfedora.org and most of the rest of the web are doing.

As to the sizes I wrote previously, 42.25% was calculated as follows:

Browser optimal (aka default, as personalized) size:
20px nominal
12pt physical

Text size produced by page CSS on the list items in the bottom columns:
13px nominal
7.8pt physical

*Physical* relationship between actual default *size* and actual text *size*:

7.8^2 / 12^2 = .4225

So, yes, really!
-- 
"The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant
words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/
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Re: Other download options

[Alexander Ploumistos]

Sorry to cut in, but whom can I contact about localization issues with the
getfedora.org website?
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Re: fedup speed

[drago01]

On Thu, Dec 11, 2014 at 4:37 AM, Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek
 wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 06:51:51PM -0500, Sam Varshavchik wrote:
>> Josh Stone writes:
>>
>> >On 12/10/2014 11:18 AM, Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek wrote:
>> >> 2. at the end, fedup creates a log by running 'journalctl -a -m',
>> >>which is --all --merge. This seems a bit excessive. On this machine
>> >>I have 4.5 GB of logs from this machine, plus a few GB more from
>> >>other sources. journalctl is not very fast (which is another issue),
>> >>but even if it was, dumping all this is bound to be slow, and not
>> >>particularly useful.
>> >
>> >https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1161366
>>
>> In the meantime, how about adding a blurb to known issues, giving
>> the systemd-fu to flush all logs, before running fedup?
>
> Is the (almost complete) fix from
> https://github.com/wgwoods/fedup-dracut/commit/cde5f2d in F20 fedup?

No.
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