Re: [corrected!] Re: 5tFTW: DNF and Mailing List Wars, F21 Branch, FESCo Election, Python 3.5, and Docs Beats (2014-07-08)

2014-07-09 Thread Matthew Miller 
On Wed, Jul 09, 2014 at 01:13:30PM +0200, Reindl Harald wrote:
> in fact it where around 5 people keep heating the discussion and burry
> the arguments of people which did not want more than what was present
> over years and now came back in DNF and it that case *you must* respond
> and try to explain why their arguments are wrong in case of upstream
> did not care and closed bugreports 2014/01 already

It is absolutely fine to respond and make the points. But if someone doesn't
"get it" after that, it's okay to let the matter drop. In fact, it's the
best thing to do.

This is _particularly_ true when the person responding isn't doing so with a
good attitude. When, as you say, people are heating the discussion, the best
way to cool it down is to not throw fuel. You can't educate people who
aren't interested in listening, and they're generally not the people making
decisions anyway. In fact, it makes the situation worse because it makes it
drives away people who might agree with you -- or be convinced.


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Re: [corrected!] Re: 5tFTW: DNF and Mailing List Wars, F21 Branch, FESCo Election, Python 3.5, and Docs Beats (2014-07-08)

2014-07-09 Thread Reindl Harald 


Am 09.07.2014 03:40, schrieb Matthew Miller:
> On Thursday, DNF version 0.5.3 was announced, along with Core DNF
> Plugins 0.1.1, which contains a new protected_packages plugin. So,
> there we go.
> 
> It think it’s worth noting, though, that this a good example of how
> mailing list discussions often fail us. There were a lot of messages,
> but almost no new information in hundreds of posts — it’s mostly people
> going back and forth, feeling like they’re not being heard or listened
> to. And then, many people feeling frustrated and driven out of
> meaningful discourse by the noise.
> 
> That’s a dynamic we need to change. If something is really important
> and you feel that your view isn't counted, there are other channels by
> which issues can be raised

i like to add here that people who are shouting left and right "i do not need"
that "the discussion is idiotic" and why they don't need that existing
features are the root cause, especially in the DNF thread

if someone does *not need* something which is very important for others but
not in any case in his way he could be quiet instead flood the list and
bugzilla with noise that in his opinion all people who don't want to lose
existing features are dumb

in fact it where around 5 people keep heating the discussion and burry
the arguments of people which did not want more than what was present
over years and now came back in DNF and it that case *you must* respond
and try to explain why their arguments are wrong in case of upstream
did not care and closed bugreports 2014/01 already



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[corrected!] Re: 5tFTW: DNF and Mailing List Wars, F21 Branch, FESCo Election, Python 3.5, and Docs Beats (2014-07-08)

2014-07-08 Thread Matthew Miller 
[Let's try this again, with the right message body!]

Reposted from .

Fedora is a big project, and it’s hard to follow it all. This series
highlights interesting happenings in five different areas every week.
It isn’t comprehensive news coverage — just quick summaries with links
to each. Here are the five things for July 8th, 2014:


DNF and Protected Packages (and Mailing Lists)
--

DNF is a next-generation package manager, scheduled to replace Yum in
Fedora 22. Last week, there was a lengthy Fedora devel list thread,
largely centered on DNF’s lack of a “protected packages” feature, which
keeps users from inadvertently removing certain core software (like the
package manager itself, or the running kernel).

On Thursday, DNF version 0.5.3 was announced, along with Core DNF
Plugins 0.1.1, which contains a new protected_packages plugin. So,
there we go.

It think it’s worth noting, though, that this a good example of how
mailing list discussions often fail us. There were a lot of messages,
but almost no new information in hundreds of posts — it’s mostly people
going back and forth, feeling like they’re not being heard or listened
to. And then, many people feeling frustrated and driven out of
meaningful discourse by the noise.

That’s a dynamic we need to change. If something is really important
and you feel that your view isn't counted, there are other channels by
which issues can be raised — file a ticket with FESCo or the Fedora
Project Board]FESCo], for example. Or, tell the FPL that you have a
concern! Everyone *should* have a voice in Fedora, even though
sometimes decisions have to be made even when not everyone agrees.
Mailing list wars (even when the flames are smouldering rather than
explosive) just aren’t the best way.

I know I’ve been as guilty of this as anyone over the years, but we need
to get out of the Someone Is Wrong on the Internet trap — arguments
aren’t won by quantity, and it isn’t necessary to have the last word in
order to be heard. And, most importantly, try to steer the quality of
discourse *up* with each post. This is the Fedora Code of Conduct,
but more importantly, it’s our Friendship foundation.

  * http://dnf.baseurl.org/
  * http://yum.baseurl.org/
  * https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2014-June/199808.html
  * 
http://dnf.baseurl.org/2014/07/03/dnf-0-5-3-and-core-dnf-plugins-0-1-1-released/
  * http://akozumpl.github.io/dnf-plugins-core/protected_packages.html
  * https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/
  * https://fedorahosted.org/board/
  * http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Project_Leader
  * http://xkcd.com/386/
  * https://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
  * https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Foundations


Fedora 21 Branch and Changes Freeze
---

Today is the big day when the Fedora 21 package tree branches from the
always-latest “Rawhide” development tree. This branched F21 tree will
stabilize and become the Alpha, Beta, and — in October — Fedora 21 final
release.

So, this is a big milestone — with a lot of work ahead! A lot of that
work will be in Quality Assurance, and we could use your help on that
front. There are lot of small and easy tasks which together make a big
difference — see the Fedora QA wiki page for ways to get involved.
(One simple thing you can do, even if you are not a a package
maintainer, is to create a test case for a package that you’re
familiar with.)

This is also the Changes Freeze — new features for Fedora 21 should
be substantially finished and testable at this point. Note that this
doesn’t mean that all changes are now blocked, just that the various
items in the F21 Change Set should be ready for testing. The next
big milestone in the schedule is the Alpha Change Deadline (which
*is* a “code freeze”) on July 22nd, in preparation for an Alpha release
on August 5th, just before Flock in Prague.

  * https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA
  * https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA:SOP_test_case_creation
  * https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes_Freeze_Policy
  * http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/21/ChangeSet
  * http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/21/Schedule
  * http://flocktofedora.com/


FESCo Summer Election in Progress
-

FESCo is holding a special election to fill three empty seats. There
are five nominees, and there will be an IRC “townhall” meeting
sometime from July 10-15, with voting open for a week after that.

  * 
http://fedoramagazine.org/election-announced-for-the-fedora-engineering-steering-commitee/
  * http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Development/SteeringCommittee/Nominations


Python 3.5 Nightly Builds
-

Fedora packager Miro Hrončok annouced that he and Slavek Kabrda have a
new Copr repository with nightly builds of development version of
Python 3. Fedora tries to be leading edge without “bleeding”, which
sometimes means we don’t move as fast as everyon