Re: Bodhi allows resubmitting an update with different packages?!
On Sat, 2010-04-10 at 22:30 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: On Fri, 2010-04-09 at 20:05 -0400, Matt McCutchen wrote: How hard is it to use Bodhi properly? To be clear, there's nothing 'improper' about editing updates, it's common practice. You can suggest ways that the practice could be improved, but telling other people they're not using Bodhi properly really isn't appropriate in this case. You are right. I apologize for the remark. I thought Dan was suggesting that the confusion caused by seeing old feedback on an edited update page was not a big deal (though I could be wrong about that too), and I was reacting to that suggestion. -- Matt -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Bodhi allows resubmitting an update with different packages?!
On Fri, 9 Apr 2010 16:31:32 -0800, Jeff wrote: I'll repeat. If a testing package is missing in bodhi...it means its obsoleted by a newer one. Bodhi has a search interface which will let you find the newer ones. The bugzilla tickets have the reference to the newer ones. It's bad to delete obsolete bodhi tickets. Feedback from testers is lost. Anything that has been published in a repo should still be findable in bodhi. The new test update may suffer from the same problems as the obsolete one, but maybe nobody reports that prior to the new update getting marked stable. A [different] tester might want to review feedback left in the obsolete ticket and try to reproduce with the new update. Keeping the obsoleted packages in the bodhi interface would only encourage you to add comments that are no longer relevant.. Obsolete bodhi tickets could be locked, so that it is no longer possible to comment on them. The last comment would be bodhi's, mentioning the newer update request. ..no longer useful to the maintainer. Short-sighted view. Bodhi is not only for the maintainer(s). You want more testers? Then make bodhi more convenient for them. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Bodhi allows resubmitting an update with different packages?!
Matt McCutchen wrote: There are nine bugs mentioned in the update. Do you really suggest that the update submitter should always manually copy them from an old update to a new update? Yes. What's so hard about that? It's a single copy and paste. Its several copies and pastes: list of packages in the update set, list of fixed bugs, update notes. Plus, you need to explicitly unpush the old update. And it's all completely unnecessary as that's what editing is for. Kevin Kofler -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Bodhi allows resubmitting an update with different packages?!
Matt McCutchen wrote: The top of the page now shows the newest package versions, but much of the feedback referred to older versions, which are not listed. IMO, this is a terribly confusing practice and Bodhi shouldn't allow it. New packages should be submitted in a new update so that feedback remains associated with the correct package versions. We always edit updates in KDE SIG and IMHO this is a required feature of Bodhi. The workflow we use is: * push testing update set for the new KDE version, * edit update with fixed packages as often as necessary, * eventually, queue the update to stable, with or without one final edit. I don't see why we should clutter Bodhi with old versions of the update set. In addition, some builds would be in both the old and the new update set, which IMHO is much more confusing than an edited update (and AFAIK Bodhi doesn't even allow it at this time). Kevin Kofler -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Bodhi allows resubmitting an update with different packages?!
Matt McCutchen wrote: This surprised me. I assumed updates were immutable and did not find any suggestion to the contrary until today. Only stable updates are (except in special circumstances) immutable. Testing updates are testing for a reason. Kevin Kofler -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Bodhi allows resubmitting an update with different packages?!
Jeff Spaleta wrote: What? We don't tag testing-updates with an ID. Actually we do. :-) But this is just one more reason to edit (the update keeps its ID, so we know that FEDORA-2010- is always KDE 4.4.2 for F12, with or without edits). Kevin Kofler -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Bodhi allows resubmitting an update with different packages?!
On Fri, 2010-04-09 at 20:05 -0400, Matt McCutchen wrote: How hard is it to use Bodhi properly? You have jumped from asking 'am I missing something' to lecturing other people on the 'proper' use of Bodhi in the space of three emails, despite the fact that no reply to your original mail suggested there was in fact anything wrong with this usage of Bodhi. To be clear, there's nothing 'improper' about editing updates, it's common practice. You can suggest ways that the practice could be improved, but telling other people they're not using Bodhi properly really isn't appropriate in this case. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Bodhi allows resubmitting an update with different packages?!
The log of the following update shows that it was submitted five times, I assume with newer packages each time: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/NetworkManager-0.8.0-6.git20100408.fc12,ModemManager-0.3-9.git20100409.fc12 The top of the page now shows the newest package versions, but much of the feedback referred to older versions, which are not listed. IMO, this is a terribly confusing practice and Bodhi shouldn't allow it. New packages should be submitted in a new update so that feedback remains associated with the correct package versions. Thoughts? Am I missing something? -- Matt -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Bodhi allows resubmitting an update with different packages?!
On Fri, Apr 09, 2010 at 07:10:59PM -0400, Matt McCutchen wrote: The log of the following update shows that it was submitted five times, I assume with newer packages each time: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/NetworkManager-0.8.0-6.git20100408.fc12,ModemManager-0.3-9.git20100409.fc12 The top of the page now shows the newest package versions, but much of the feedback referred to older versions, which are not listed. IMO, this is a terribly confusing practice and Bodhi shouldn't allow it. New packages should be submitted in a new update so that feedback remains associated with the correct package versions. Thoughts? Am I missing something? There are nine bugs mentioned in the update. Do you really suggest that the update submitter should always manually copy them from an old update to a new update? But it would be nice if Bodhi would support to create a new update using an old update as a template, then editing the builds attached to an update would probably not be needed. Regards Till pgploWN8EJGjw.pgp Description: PGP signature -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Bodhi allows resubmitting an update with different packages?!
On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 3:10 PM, Matt McCutchen m...@mattmccutchen.net wrote: Thoughts? Am I missing something? When someone is publishing updates and putting them into testing specifically to address known bugs... and they get the fix wrong in some way... I think its perfectly acceptable to reuse the same update notice for the testing packages in order to do a series of such test packages...letting intermediate test packages expire out of existence. You can make the same argument about confusion in the bugzilla comments to. Unless people take the time to state which version they are using in every comment if there are several intermediate attempts to fix a bug handed out to users..whether it be via bodhi or even just koji builds..bug reports get harder to follow...unless people state which versions they are testing. And I certainly wouldn't expect people to refile a new bug report each time a testing package is spun up just to keep the flow of commentary clear as to which version everyone was referring to when they were providing feedback. -jef -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Bodhi allows resubmitting an update with different packages?!
On Sat, 2010-04-10 at 01:20 +0200, Till Maas wrote: There are nine bugs mentioned in the update. Do you really suggest that the update submitter should always manually copy them from an old update to a new update? Yes. What's so hard about that? It's a single copy and paste. But it would be nice if Bodhi would support to create a new update using an old update as a template, then editing the builds attached to an update would probably not be needed. I entered a ticket: https://fedorahosted.org/bodhi/ticket/413 -- Matt -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Bodhi allows resubmitting an update with different packages?!
On Fri, 2010-04-09 at 15:32 -0800, Jeff Spaleta wrote: When someone is publishing updates and putting them into testing specifically to address known bugs... and they get the fix wrong in some way... I think its perfectly acceptable to reuse the same update notice for the testing packages in order to do a series of such test packages...letting intermediate test packages expire out of existence. You can make the same argument about confusion in the bugzilla comments to. Unless people take the time to state which version they are using in every comment if there are several intermediate attempts to fix a bug handed out to users..whether it be via bodhi or even just koji builds..bug reports get harder to follow...unless people state which versions they are testing. And I certainly wouldn't expect people to refile a new bug report each time a testing package is spun up just to keep the flow of commentary clear as to which version everyone was referring to when they were providing feedback. The comparison to bugs is not valid. A bug is the same bug until it is fixed. An update consisting of different packages is a different update. -- Matt -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Bodhi allows resubmitting an update with different packages?!
On Fri, 2010-04-09 at 16:26 -0700, Dan Williams wrote: That would be nice. Though in the end, as long as the update has not reached stable, is editing a testing update to fix regressions really that big of a deal... It confuses the people who put in the effort to test your packages. I updated to NetworkManager-0.8.0-4.git20100325.fc12.x86_64 and hit bugs 576925 and 578141. I wanted to leave negative feedback on the update, but I could not find one for that package version. It took me a minute to realize that you had edited the update to contain newer packages. Edits also break the links that the update system posts on Bugzilla, such as the ones here: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=573510#c2 How hard is it to use Bodhi properly? -- Matt -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Bodhi allows resubmitting an update with different packages?!
On Fri, 2010-04-09 at 19:57 -0400, Matt McCutchen wrote: On Fri, 2010-04-09 at 15:32 -0800, Jeff Spaleta wrote: When someone is publishing updates and putting them into testing specifically to address known bugs... and they get the fix wrong in some way... I think its perfectly acceptable to reuse the same update notice for the testing packages in order to do a series of such test packages...letting intermediate test packages expire out of existence. You can make the same argument about confusion in the bugzilla comments to. Unless people take the time to state which version they are using in every comment if there are several intermediate attempts to fix a bug handed out to users..whether it be via bodhi or even just koji builds..bug reports get harder to follow...unless people state which versions they are testing. And I certainly wouldn't expect people to refile a new bug report each time a testing package is spun up just to keep the flow of commentary clear as to which version everyone was referring to when they were providing feedback. The comparison to bugs is not valid. A bug is the same bug until it is fixed. An update consisting of different packages is a different update. Better comparison: Bugzilla does not allow the content of an attachment to be edited once it is submitted. Instead, people submit a new attachment and obsolete the old one. -- Matt -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Bodhi allows resubmitting an update with different packages?!
On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 3:57 PM, Matt McCutchen m...@mattmccutchen.net wrote: The comparison to bugs is not valid. A bug is the same bug until it is fixed. An update consisting of different packages is a different update. What? We don't tag testing-updates with an ID. Testing packages...are implicitly in flux...there's no intention to provide an audit trail via a mechanism like our ID nomenclature that tags a collection of packages as an identifiable update when the packages are in testing. I think your overly narrowing the flexibility inherent in the testing process with your attempt to define a testing updating they way you just did. -jef -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Bodhi allows resubmitting an update with different packages?!
On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 4:05 PM, Matt McCutchen m...@mattmccutchen.net wrote: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=573510#c2 How hard is it to use Bodhi properly? And then at the bottom of the bug report... there's newer packages...and newer links. There's no value in commenting on testing packages that are already superceded by newer testing packages. -jef -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Bodhi allows resubmitting an update with different packages?!
On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 4:05 PM, Matt McCutchen m...@mattmccutchen.net wrote: It confuses the people who put in the effort to test your packages. I updated to NetworkManager-0.8.0-4.git20100325.fc12.x86_64 and hit bugs 576925 and 578141. I wanted to leave negative feedback on the update, but I could not find one for that package version. See... that's where I would have stopped and asked myself the following: Self, why can't a find this package in bodhi it must be obsoleted by a newer version. Hey let me search via the web interface and see...yes..yes it was. I'll give it a day and let my mirrors sync up so I can get the latest _test_ update so I can provide feedback that will be useful. Good thinking self, you've earned a beer and a baconiase infused devilled egg. Once a testing package is obsoleted by newer testing packages, why do we need to keep those packages in bodhi's interface? Why do we need to duplicate this at all? If you can't find a package in bodhi any longer that means its no longer the latest available update and its no longer relevant to the discussion. -jef -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Bodhi allows resubmitting an update with different packages?!
On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 4:09 PM, Matt McCutchen m...@mattmccutchen.net wrote: Better comparison: Bugzilla does not allow the content of an attachment to be edited once it is submitted. Instead, people submit a new attachment and obsolete the old one. Yes and koji keeps builds around to even when they aren't in a published tree. Doesn't make that behavior appropriate for what bodhi is trying to accomplish. -jef -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Bodhi allows resubmitting an update with different packages?!
On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 4:20 PM, Matt McCutchen m...@mattmccutchen.net wrote: There's another possible explanation for that policy: users who don't participate in testing know that any update with an ID went to stable and won't be distracted by references to IDs of testing updates in various forums. But actually, I would prefer giving every update an ID. Clearly you would. And you'd burn through the ID numbering scheme with no real auditting benefit. I'll repeat. If a testing package is missing in bodhi...it means its obsoleted by a newer one. Bodhi has a search interface which will let you find the newer ones. The bugzilla tickets have the reference to the newer ones. Keeping the obsoleted packages in the bodhi interface would only encourage you to add comments that are no longer relevant..no longer useful to the maintainer. Yes its unfortunate that you installed an outdated testing package. It happens...because testing revisions can be quite fast paced when maintainers are on the ball and your local mirror might not sync as fast as others so you are a step or three behind the current conversation. And in this case, even if you found the package listing you were looking for...any comment you would have added...any karma you would have added..would just be wasted effort because the relevant conversation had moved on to the newer package. And we certainly don't want you to waste even more effort adding karma or a comment on an obsoleted testing package. We want you using and commenting on the testing packages that are most current. -jef -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Bodhi allows resubmitting an update with different packages?!
On Fri, 2010-04-09 at 16:31 -0800, Jeff Spaleta wrote: I'll repeat. If a testing package is missing in bodhi...it means its obsoleted by a newer one. This surprised me. I assumed updates were immutable and did not find any suggestion to the contrary until today. Bodhi has a search interface which will let you find the newer ones. The bugzilla tickets have the reference to the newer ones. Keeping the obsoleted packages in the bodhi interface would only encourage you to add comments that are no longer relevant..no longer useful to the maintainer. Yes its unfortunate that you installed an outdated testing package. It happens...because testing revisions can be quite fast paced when maintainers are on the ball and your local mirror might not sync as fast as others so you are a step or three behind the current conversation. And in this case, even if you found the package listing you were looking for...any comment you would have added...any karma you would have added..would just be wasted effort because the relevant conversation had moved on to the newer package. And we certainly don't want you to waste even more effort adding karma or a comment on an obsoleted testing package. We want you using and commenting on the testing packages that are most current. I understand that! Once I saw that my package was obsolete, I did not comment about the bugs. As you have said, feedback on obsolete packages is irrelevant. So it is confusing to see it on the page for the new update. I have to remember to start reading after the last This update has been submitted. If the feedback log would be cleared upon resubmission, then the outcome would be indistinguishable from my proposal. -- Matt -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Bodhi allows resubmitting an update with different packages?!
On Fri, 2010-04-09 at 16:19 -0800, Jeff Spaleta wrote: Once a testing package is obsoleted by newer testing packages, why do we need to keep those packages in bodhi's interface? To keep the contents of bodhi and the repository consistent at all times (subject to mirroring). As soon as the obsolete packages are unpushed from the repository, I have no objection to the update disappearing from bodhi. But this is really a separate issue from my main complaint, which was about old feedback appearing on the update page. -- Matt -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
