Re: Firefox not working anymore over ssh?

[Michael Catanzaro]

On Fri, 2016-04-01 at 20:43 -0500, Michael Catanzaro wrote:
> I will just add: DRI3 plus the modesetting graphics driver (mandatory
> for new Intel processors) plus accelerated compositing is known-
> broken
> in WebKit; we unfortunately cannot support that combination. As we
> are
> going to make accelerated compositing mandatory in WebKit in the near
> future, my understanding is that will break all apps using WebKit for
> users with new computers. Only known solution is
> LIBGL_DRI3_DISABLE=1.
> This is your obligatory "I told you so" for when the complaints start
> rolling in half a year from now.
> 
> This is https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=85064
> 
> I'm concerned that we may have enabled DRI3 before it was fully-
> baked,
> if it's known to be broken with Firefox, WebKit, LibreOffice
> 
> Michael

Hi,

This is a heads-up that the change to enable accelerated compositing
always has landed in WebKit trunk and will be landing in rawhide soon.

As previously discussed, the DRI3 plus modesetting driver combination
is known to be broken in accelerated compositing mode as per [1].
WebKitWebViews will most likely not be functional in F25 for affected
users. Any help in fixing [1] would of course be appreciated. The
relevant upstream WebKit developers are not very interested in this
problem because Debian doesn't use DRI3.

Michael

[1] https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=85064
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Re: Firefox not working anymore over ssh?

[Matthias Clasen]

On Mon, 2016-04-04 at 15:23 -0500, Michael Catanzaro wrote:
> On Mon, 2016-04-04 at 13:56 -0600, Kevin Fenzi wrote:
> > 
> > It does. 
> > 
> > Also, I haven't seen any of the breakage in webkit mentioned in
> > this
> > thread here with a skylake laptop. 
> The bug only occurs in accelerated compositing (OpenGL) mode, which
> is
> currently only used when necessary to support a particular web page
> (e.g. GitHub commit diffs, or search results on DuckDuckGo). Ongoing
> work is to make accelerated compositing mode mandatory and use it on
> all web pages. Once this work lands, modesetting driver users will
> need
> to disable DRI3 in order to practically use WebKit.

Once again goes to show how problematic it is to use web rendering
stacks from browsers in other places: Now we have an initial setup tool
that depends on GL+DRI3 working just because it needs to render two
entries in a webpage :-(
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Re: Firefox not working anymore over ssh?

[drago01]

On Mon, Apr 4, 2016 at 9:33 PM, Eric Griffith  wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 4, 2016 at 3:13 PM, Michael Catanzaro 
> wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, 2016-04-04 at 14:19 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote:
>> > That seems to be a bit over-dramatic. gnome-initial-setup works fine.
>> > The online accounts step will be affected, but that's about it.
>>
>> And the breakage will be limited to only those using the modesetting
>> driver, i.e. computers than are newer than the ones we're probably
>> using right now.
>
>
> Intel i7-6700k checking in. Unless i misunderstood the thread, does Skylake
> not use -modesetting?

It does on F24 / rawhide ... it still uses the intel ddx on F23.
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Re: Firefox not working anymore over ssh?

[Kevin Fenzi]

On Mon, 04 Apr 2016 15:23:56 -0500
Michael Catanzaro  wrote:

> On Mon, 2016-04-04 at 13:56 -0600, Kevin Fenzi wrote:
> > It does. 
> > 
> > Also, I haven't seen any of the breakage in webkit mentioned in this
> > thread here with a skylake laptop.   
> 
> The bug only occurs in accelerated compositing (OpenGL) mode, which is
> currently only used when necessary to support a particular web page
> (e.g. GitHub commit diffs, or search results on DuckDuckGo). Ongoing
> work is to make accelerated compositing mode mandatory and use it on
> all web pages. Once this work lands, modesetting driver users will
> need to disable DRI3 in order to practically use WebKit.

ok, that makes more sense. Thanks. 

kevin


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Re: Firefox not working anymore over ssh?

[Michael Catanzaro]

On Mon, 2016-04-04 at 13:56 -0600, Kevin Fenzi wrote:
> It does. 
> 
> Also, I haven't seen any of the breakage in webkit mentioned in this
> thread here with a skylake laptop. 

The bug only occurs in accelerated compositing (OpenGL) mode, which is
currently only used when necessary to support a particular web page
(e.g. GitHub commit diffs, or search results on DuckDuckGo). Ongoing
work is to make accelerated compositing mode mandatory and use it on
all web pages. Once this work lands, modesetting driver users will need
to disable DRI3 in order to practically use WebKit.

Michael
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Re: Firefox not working anymore over ssh?

[Kevin Fenzi]

On Mon, 4 Apr 2016 15:33:51 -0400
Eric Griffith  wrote:

> On Mon, Apr 4, 2016 at 3:13 PM, Michael Catanzaro
>  wrote:
> 
> > On Mon, 2016-04-04 at 14:19 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote:  
> > > That seems to be a bit over-dramatic. gnome-initial-setup works
> > > fine. The online accounts step will be affected, but that's about
> > > it.  
> >
> > And the breakage will be limited to only those using the modesetting
> > driver, i.e. computers than are newer than the ones we're probably
> > using right now.
> >  
> 
> Intel i7-6700k checking in. Unless i misunderstood the thread, does
> Skylake not use -modesetting?

It does. 

Also, I haven't seen any of the breakage in webkit mentioned in this
thread here with a skylake laptop. 
 
kevin


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Re: Firefox not working anymore over ssh?

[Eric Griffith]

On Mon, Apr 4, 2016 at 3:13 PM, Michael Catanzaro 
wrote:

> On Mon, 2016-04-04 at 14:19 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote:
> > That seems to be a bit over-dramatic. gnome-initial-setup works fine.
> > The online accounts step will be affected, but that's about it.
>
> And the breakage will be limited to only those using the modesetting
> driver, i.e. computers than are newer than the ones we're probably
> using right now.
>

Intel i7-6700k checking in. Unless i misunderstood the thread, does Skylake
not use -modesetting?
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Re: Firefox not working anymore over ssh?

[Michael Catanzaro]

On Mon, 2016-04-04 at 14:19 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote:
> That seems to be a bit over-dramatic. gnome-initial-setup works fine.
> The online accounts step will be affected, but that's about it.

Yes, only the webview portions of g-i-s would be affected, of course
(gnome-online-accounts page, and the EULA page). Users will still be
able to install Fedora. Only the webviews would become borderline
unusable.

And the breakage will be limited to only those using the modesetting
driver, i.e. computers than are newer than the ones we're probably
using right now.

Michael
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Re: Firefox not working anymore over ssh?

[Matthias Clasen]

On Sat, 2016-04-02 at 09:17 -0500, Michael Catanzaro wrote:

> > 
> > So if there are issues with WebKit they should be fixed. "It can't
> > work lets go back to DRI2" isn't really an option in the long run
> It would be great if somebody would fix this. I just want to give a
> heads-up that we are not going to delay architectural improvements in
> WebKit for just DRI3 plus modesetting driver, and that this is going
> to
> render lots of apps totally unusable (gnome-initial-setup, gnome-
> online-accounts, Evolution, etc.) possibly in the F25/F26 timeframe
> if
> this isn't resolved.
> 

That seems to be a bit over-dramatic. gnome-initial-setup works fine.
The online accounts step will be affected, but that's about it.
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Re: Firefox not working anymore over ssh?

[Michael Stahl]

On 29.03.2016 19:22, Tim Landscheidt wrote:
> Michael Catanzaro  wrote:
> 
>>> Yes.  This makes it work.  Thanks a lot.
> 
>> Then it was probably broken by this update:
> 
>> https://bodhi.fedoraproject.org/updates/FEDORA-2016-606ca05253
> 
> The "LIBGL_DRI3_DISABLE=1" workaround fixed it for me as
> well (running Iceweasel on a remote Debian box from a local
> Fedora box).  Does that mean that there is an error in Fe-
> dora, Firefox/Iceweasel, something else?  Is there a bug
> tracking this?

looks like

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1174257

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Re: Firefox not working anymore over ssh?

[drago01]

On Sat, Apr 2, 2016 at 11:28 PM, Kevin Fenzi  wrote:
> On Sat, 2 Apr 2016 23:14:14 +0200
> drago01  wrote:
>
>> No. This line does not tell you much.
>>
>> Easy way to check for DRi3 is to run "glxinfo|grep buffer_age"  ... if
>> you have to lines in that output you'd have DRI3.
>
> Intuitive. :)

Well that's the easiest thing I could think of that doesn't require
jumping through hoops ... you could use dri3info, which isn't
packaged.

But you can do:
wget 
https://cgit.freedesktop.org/xorg/driver/xf86-video-intel/tree/tools/dri3info.c
gcc -o dri3info dri3info.c `pkg-config --cflags --libs xcb-dri3
x11-xcb xrandr xxf86vm libdrm`
./dri3info
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Re: Firefox not working anymore over ssh?

[Kevin Fenzi]

On Sat, 2 Apr 2016 23:14:14 +0200
drago01  wrote:

> No. This line does not tell you much.
> 
> Easy way to check for DRi3 is to run "glxinfo|grep buffer_age"  ... if
> you have to lines in that output you'd have DRI3.

Intuitive. :)

% glxinfo|grep buffer_age
GLX_EXT_buffer_age, GLX_EXT_create_context_es2_profile, 
GLX_ARB_get_proc_address, GLX_ARB_multisample, GLX_EXT_buffer_age, 

> As for why you haven't seen problems ... because usually it "just
> works" (even better than DRI2).

Alright. 

kevin



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Re: Firefox not working anymore over ssh?

[drago01]

On Sat, Apr 2, 2016 at 10:00 PM, Kevin Fenzi  wrote:
> On Sat, 2 Apr 2016 09:20:00 +0200
> drago01  wrote:
>
>> This is not true. While the plan is to get stop using device specific
>> ddx drivers
>> you do not need modesetting for "new intel processors" they works
>> with the intel ddx as well.
>
> My understanding is that gen9 intel chipsets get modesetting, gen8 and
> earlier still use xorg-x11-drv-intel. (For f24+)
>
> http://pkgs.fedoraproject.org/cgit/rpms/xorg-x11-drv-intel.git/commit/?h=f24=a9366ea5d76bbbf1ff3d459f9e6c0b99acbdbcbf
>

That's a fedora specific patch I haven't seen yet. But given that's
what we want to move to its ok anyways.

>> Also XWayland only supports DRI3; and DRI3 on X is a requirement for
>> Vulkan. It also helps compositors like mutter to avoid tearing and
>> improves performance. So if there are issues with WebKit they should
>> be fixed. "It can't work lets go back to DRI2" isn't really an option
>> in the long run --
>
> Oddly, I have a skylake laptop here (gen 9) and it does indeed use
> modesetting driver, but I only get DRI2 (which is why I haven't seen
> any DRI3 problems I guess).
>
> Apr 02 13:50:17 sheelba.scrye.com org.gnome.Shell.desktop[2064]:
> glamor: EGL version 1.4 (DRI2):
>
> Is DRI3 only default for xorg-x11-drv-intel ?

No. This line does not tell you much.

Easy way to check for DRi3 is to run "glxinfo|grep buffer_age"  ... if
you have to lines in that output you'd have DRI3.

As for why you haven't seen problems ... because usually it "just
works" (even better than DRI2).
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Re: Firefox not working anymore over ssh?

[Kevin Fenzi]

On Sat, 2 Apr 2016 09:20:00 +0200
drago01  wrote:
 
> This is not true. While the plan is to get stop using device specific
> ddx drivers
> you do not need modesetting for "new intel processors" they works
> with the intel ddx as well.

My understanding is that gen9 intel chipsets get modesetting, gen8 and
earlier still use xorg-x11-drv-intel. (For f24+)

http://pkgs.fedoraproject.org/cgit/rpms/xorg-x11-drv-intel.git/commit/?h=f24=a9366ea5d76bbbf1ff3d459f9e6c0b99acbdbcbf

...snip...

> Also XWayland only supports DRI3; and DRI3 on X is a requirement for
> Vulkan. It also helps compositors like mutter to avoid tearing and
> improves performance. So if there are issues with WebKit they should
> be fixed. "It can't work lets go back to DRI2" isn't really an option
> in the long run --

Oddly, I have a skylake laptop here (gen 9) and it does indeed use
modesetting driver, but I only get DRI2 (which is why I haven't seen
any DRI3 problems I guess).

Apr 02 13:50:17 sheelba.scrye.com org.gnome.Shell.desktop[2064]:
glamor: EGL version 1.4 (DRI2):

Is DRI3 only default for xorg-x11-drv-intel ? 

kevin


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Re: Firefox not working anymore over ssh?

[Michael Catanzaro]

On Sat, 2016-04-02 at 09:20 +0200, drago01 wrote:
> This is not true. While the plan is to get stop using device specific
> ddx drivers
> you do not need modesetting for "new intel processors" they works
> with the
> intel ddx as well.

Great. Maybe that plan could be delayed until this issue is resolved,
then?

> > plus accelerated compositing is known-broken
> > in WebKit; we unfortunately cannot support that combination.
> Why?

I don't know. It works with other graphics drivers.

> Its not broken  with Firefox or LibreOffice ... it can by design not
> work
> remotely. This issue has been fixed in xserver git by transparently
> fallback
> to DRI2 in that case -> https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=
> 93261

OK

> Also XWayland only supports DRI3; and DRI3 on X is a requirement for
> Vulkan.

OK

> It also helps compositors like mutter to avoid tearing and improves
> performance.

OK

> So if there are issues with WebKit they should be fixed. "It can't
> work lets go back to DRI2" isn't really an option in the long run

It would be great if somebody would fix this. I just want to give a
heads-up that we are not going to delay architectural improvements in
WebKit for just DRI3 plus modesetting driver, and that this is going to
render lots of apps totally unusable (gnome-initial-setup, gnome-
online-accounts, Evolution, etc.) possibly in the F25/F26 timeframe if
this isn't resolved.

Michael
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Re: Firefox not working anymore over ssh?

[drago01]

On Sat, Apr 2, 2016 at 10:04 AM, Jan Kratochvil
 wrote:
> On Sat, 02 Apr 2016 09:39:33 +0200, drago01 wrote:
>> On Sat, Apr 2, 2016 at 9:26 AM, Samuel Sieb  wrote:
>> > On 04/02/2016 12:20 AM, drago01 wrote:
>> >> Also XWayland only supports DRI3;
>> >
>> > You say it's currently fixed by falling back to DRI2, but then you say that
>> > DRI2 is going away or at least won't be supported.
>>
>> DRI2 will stay around. It just wont be the default choice for the above 
>> reasons.
>
> But after Fedora switches to Wayland (XWayland?) then you say DRI2 won't be
> around anymore.  So I do not understand how it will work afterwards.

You get software rendering.

>> >> So if there are issues with WebKit they should be fixed. "It can't
>> >> work lets go back to DRI2" isn't really an option in the long run
>
> Therefore not only WebKit but also Firefox and LibreOffice each need their own
> specific fixes?

LibreOffie and Firefox do not need any fixes.
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Re: Firefox not working anymore over ssh?

[Jan Kratochvil]

On Sat, 02 Apr 2016 09:39:33 +0200, drago01 wrote:
> On Sat, Apr 2, 2016 at 9:26 AM, Samuel Sieb  wrote:
> > On 04/02/2016 12:20 AM, drago01 wrote:
> >> Also XWayland only supports DRI3;
> >
> > You say it's currently fixed by falling back to DRI2, but then you say that
> > DRI2 is going away or at least won't be supported.
> 
> DRI2 will stay around. It just wont be the default choice for the above 
> reasons.

But after Fedora switches to Wayland (XWayland?) then you say DRI2 won't be
around anymore.  So I do not understand how it will work afterwards.

> >> So if there are issues with WebKit they should be fixed. "It can't
> >> work lets go back to DRI2" isn't really an option in the long run

Therefore not only WebKit but also Firefox and LibreOffice each need their own
specific fixes?


Jan
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Re: Firefox not working anymore over ssh?

[drago01]

On Sat, Apr 2, 2016 at 9:26 AM, Samuel Sieb  wrote:
> On 04/02/2016 12:20 AM, drago01 wrote:
>>
>> Its not broken  with Firefox or LibreOffice ... it can by design not work
>> remotely. This issue has been fixed in xserver git by transparently
>> fallback
>> to DRI2 in that case -> https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=93261
>>
>> Also XWayland only supports DRI3; and DRI3 on X is a requirement for
>> Vulkan.
>> It also helps compositors like mutter to avoid tearing and improves
>> performance.
>> So if there are issues with WebKit they should be fixed. "It can't
>> work lets go back to DRI2" isn't really an option in the long run
>
>
> Does this mean that eventually X applications over ssh will stop working?
>
> You say it's currently fixed by falling back to DRI2, but then you say that
> DRI2 is going away or at least won't be supported.

DRI2 will stay around. It just wont be the default choice for the above reasons.
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Re: Firefox not working anymore over ssh?

[Samuel Sieb]

On 04/02/2016 12:20 AM, drago01 wrote:

Its not broken  with Firefox or LibreOffice ... it can by design not work
remotely. This issue has been fixed in xserver git by transparently fallback
to DRI2 in that case -> https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=93261

Also XWayland only supports DRI3; and DRI3 on X is a requirement for Vulkan.
It also helps compositors like mutter to avoid tearing and improves performance.
So if there are issues with WebKit they should be fixed. "It can't
work lets go back to DRI2" isn't really an option in the long run


Does this mean that eventually X applications over ssh will stop working?

You say it's currently fixed by falling back to DRI2, but then you say 
that DRI2 is going away or at least won't be supported.

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Re: Firefox not working anymore over ssh?

[drago01]

On Sat, Apr 2, 2016 at 3:43 AM, Michael Catanzaro  wrote:
> On Fri, 2016-04-01 at 21:30 +0200, Jan Kratochvil wrote:
>> On Tue, 29 Mar 2016 19:22:31 +0200, Tim Landscheidt wrote:
>> > Michael Catanzaro  wrote:
>> > > Then it was probably broken by this update:
>> >
>> > > https://bodhi.fedoraproject.org/updates/FEDORA-2016-606ca05253
>> >
>> > The "LIBGL_DRI3_DISABLE=1" workaround fixed it for me as
>> > well (running Iceweasel on a remote Debian box from a local
>> > Fedora box).  Does that mean that there is an error in Fe-
>> > dora, Firefox/Iceweasel, something else?  Is there a bug
>> > tracking this?
>>
>> libreoffice-core-5.0.5.2-6.fc23.x86_64 is broken+workarounded the
>> same way.
>>
>>
>> Jan
>
> I will just add: DRI3 plus the modesetting graphics driver (mandatory
> for new Intel processors)

This is not true. While the plan is to get stop using device specific
ddx drivers
you do not need modesetting for "new intel processors" they works with the
intel ddx as well.

> plus accelerated compositing is known-broken
> in WebKit; we unfortunately cannot support that combination.

Why?

> As we are
> going to make accelerated compositing mandatory in WebKit in the near
> future, my understanding is that will break all apps using WebKit for
> users with new computers. Only known solution is LIBGL_DRI3_DISABLE=1.
> This is your obligatory "I told you so" for when the complaints start
> rolling in half a year from now.
>
> This is https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=85064
>
> I'm concerned that we may have enabled DRI3 before it was fully-baked,
> if it's known to be broken with Firefox, WebKit, LibreOffice

Its not broken  with Firefox or LibreOffice ... it can by design not work
remotely. This issue has been fixed in xserver git by transparently fallback
to DRI2 in that case -> https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=93261

Also XWayland only supports DRI3; and DRI3 on X is a requirement for Vulkan.
It also helps compositors like mutter to avoid tearing and improves performance.
So if there are issues with WebKit they should be fixed. "It can't
work lets go back to DRI2" isn't really an option in the long run
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Re: Firefox not working anymore over ssh?

[Michael Catanzaro]

On Fri, 2016-04-01 at 21:30 +0200, Jan Kratochvil wrote:
> On Tue, 29 Mar 2016 19:22:31 +0200, Tim Landscheidt wrote:
> > Michael Catanzaro  wrote:
> > > Then it was probably broken by this update:
> > 
> > > https://bodhi.fedoraproject.org/updates/FEDORA-2016-606ca05253
> > 
> > The "LIBGL_DRI3_DISABLE=1" workaround fixed it for me as
> > well (running Iceweasel on a remote Debian box from a local
> > Fedora box).  Does that mean that there is an error in Fe-
> > dora, Firefox/Iceweasel, something else?  Is there a bug
> > tracking this?
> 
> libreoffice-core-5.0.5.2-6.fc23.x86_64 is broken+workarounded the
> same way.
> 
> 
> Jan

I will just add: DRI3 plus the modesetting graphics driver (mandatory
for new Intel processors) plus accelerated compositing is known-broken
in WebKit; we unfortunately cannot support that combination. As we are
going to make accelerated compositing mandatory in WebKit in the near
future, my understanding is that will break all apps using WebKit for
users with new computers. Only known solution is LIBGL_DRI3_DISABLE=1.
This is your obligatory "I told you so" for when the complaints start
rolling in half a year from now.

This is https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=85064

I'm concerned that we may have enabled DRI3 before it was fully-baked,
if it's known to be broken with Firefox, WebKit, LibreOffice

Michael
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Re: Firefox not working anymore over ssh?

[Jan Kratochvil]

On Tue, 29 Mar 2016 19:22:31 +0200, Tim Landscheidt wrote:
> Michael Catanzaro  wrote:
> > Then it was probably broken by this update:
> 
> > https://bodhi.fedoraproject.org/updates/FEDORA-2016-606ca05253
> 
> The "LIBGL_DRI3_DISABLE=1" workaround fixed it for me as
> well (running Iceweasel on a remote Debian box from a local
> Fedora box).  Does that mean that there is an error in Fe-
> dora, Firefox/Iceweasel, something else?  Is there a bug
> tracking this?

libreoffice-core-5.0.5.2-6.fc23.x86_64 is broken+workarounded the same way.


Jan
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Re: Firefox not working anymore over ssh?

[Tim Landscheidt]

Michael Catanzaro  wrote:

>> Yes.  This makes it work.  Thanks a lot.

> Then it was probably broken by this update:

> https://bodhi.fedoraproject.org/updates/FEDORA-2016-606ca05253

The "LIBGL_DRI3_DISABLE=1" workaround fixed it for me as
well (running Iceweasel on a remote Debian box from a local
Fedora box).  Does that mean that there is an error in Fe-
dora, Firefox/Iceweasel, something else?  Is there a bug
tracking this?

Tim
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Re: Firefox not working anymore over ssh?

[Michael Catanzaro]

On Tue, 2016-03-08 at 17:54 +0100, Juan Quintela wrote:
> Yes.  This makes it work.  Thanks a lot.

Then it was probably broken by this update:

https://bodhi.fedoraproject.org/updates/FEDORA-2016-606ca05253
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Re: Firefox not working anymore over ssh?

[Juan Quintela]

"Richard W.M. Jones"  wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 08, 2016 at 03:25:05PM +0100, Juan Quintela wrote:
>> Anyone has any suggestion?
>
> Does setting LIBGL_DRI3_DISABLE=1 help?

Yes.  This makes it work.  Thanks a lot.

Later, Juan.
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Re: Firefox not working anymore over ssh?

[Richard W.M. Jones]

On Tue, Mar 08, 2016 at 03:25:05PM +0100, Juan Quintela wrote:
> Anyone has any suggestion?

Does setting LIBGL_DRI3_DISABLE=1 help?

Rich.

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Firefox not working anymore over ssh?

[Juan Quintela]

Hi

since last Monday or so, I have been able to run firefox over ssh
anymore.  I thought it was my setup, but further investigation showed
that it is something specific to firefox.

My setup is a bit more convoluted than this, but I am able to do:

$ ssh -X localhost gnome-terminal

And it shows a terminal as expected

$ ssh -X localhost firefox

Without a firefox running will hang there forever, no output at all.  I
tried doing strace of it, and see that is waiting for futexes.  But
haven't been able to see what is happening.

Until last Tuesday or so (I am on F23) firefox worked over ssh without
any problems.  I have been running it like that for something like a
year.

Anyone has any suggestion?  I tried also

$ ssh -Y localhost firefox

And it didn't helped at all (not that I am sure of the difference either).

Later, Juan.

PD.  Really, what I normally do is run ssh to a virtual manchine in the
 same host.


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