Re: FreeCAD required updates (PySide2 & Coin4)

[Richard Shaw]

Just following up if there is a consensus here. If I'm not moving FreeCAD
to Coin4 on F30/31 then I'm going to at least rebuilt with PySide2.

Thanks,
Richard
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Re: FreeCAD required updates (PySide2 & Coin4)

[Richard Shaw]

On Thu, Oct 10, 2019 at 2:36 AM Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek <
zbys...@in.waw.pl> wrote:

> > So the PRs were for Rawhide, but the bug I'm trying to fix exists on all
> > supported Fedora releases. I wasn't planning on updating F29 at this
> point
> > but F30 does have a lot of life left.
> >
> > I don't like the idea of major upgrades within a release but the list of
> > dependencies (as noted by the list of PRs) is fairly small and through my
> > COPR I have found no *build* issues with the update.
> >
> > I'm open to suggestion here but I don't like leaving broken software in
> > Fedora and basically having to tell the user, "It's fixed in Rawhide so
> > you'll get it eventually..."
> >
> > Thoughts?
>
> Let's get everything built and tested in rawhide first. Based
> on how this turns out, an update in F30 and F31 might be appropriate
> (with a suitably long testing period, etc). I agree that if the version
> in stable Fedora is sufficiently broken, it's better to release an
> working update with major version changes than to do nothing.
>

FreeCAD is now built for Rawhide. I don't run rawhide so not much I can
test but I did built the same stack in my COPR for F30 and 31 as well and
tested FreeCAD as best I could.

Thanks,
Richard
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Re: FreeCAD required updates (PySide2 & Coin4)

[Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek]

On Wed, Oct 09, 2019 at 08:50:44PM -0500, Richard Shaw wrote:
> On Tue, Oct 8, 2019 at 3:54 AM Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek <
> zbys...@in.waw.pl> wrote:
> 
> > On Tue, Oct 08, 2019 at 08:32:47AM +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
> > > >
> > > >Those are fairly substantial changes, but time is of essence here.
> > > I could not disagree more. Quality and stability is of more essence,
> > here.
> >
> > Richard is working on updating Coin to the latest version along with the
> > dependent packages. The PRs were for rawhide. I don't think there's much
> > choice: we need to update to latest versions of packages and rawhide is
> > the appropriate place to do it, and we are early in the release cycle.
> >
> 
> So the PRs were for Rawhide, but the bug I'm trying to fix exists on all
> supported Fedora releases. I wasn't planning on updating F29 at this point
> but F30 does have a lot of life left.
> 
> I don't like the idea of major upgrades within a release but the list of
> dependencies (as noted by the list of PRs) is fairly small and through my
> COPR I have found no *build* issues with the update.
> 
> I'm open to suggestion here but I don't like leaving broken software in
> Fedora and basically having to tell the user, "It's fixed in Rawhide so
> you'll get it eventually..."
> 
> Thoughts?

Let's get everything built and tested in rawhide first. Based
on how this turns out, an update in F30 and F31 might be appropriate
(with a suitably long testing period, etc). I agree that if the version
in stable Fedora is sufficiently broken, it's better to release an
working update with major version changes than to do nothing.

Zbyszek
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Re: FreeCAD required updates (PySide2 & Coin4)

[Richard Shaw]

On Tue, Oct 8, 2019 at 3:54 AM Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek <
zbys...@in.waw.pl> wrote:

> On Tue, Oct 08, 2019 at 08:32:47AM +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
> > >
> > >Those are fairly substantial changes, but time is of essence here.
> > I could not disagree more. Quality and stability is of more essence,
> here.
>
> Richard is working on updating Coin to the latest version along with the
> dependent packages. The PRs were for rawhide. I don't think there's much
> choice: we need to update to latest versions of packages and rawhide is
> the appropriate place to do it, and we are early in the release cycle.
>

So the PRs were for Rawhide, but the bug I'm trying to fix exists on all
supported Fedora releases. I wasn't planning on updating F29 at this point
but F30 does have a lot of life left.

I don't like the idea of major upgrades within a release but the list of
dependencies (as noted by the list of PRs) is fairly small and through my
COPR I have found no *build* issues with the update.

I'm open to suggestion here but I don't like leaving broken software in
Fedora and basically having to tell the user, "It's fixed in Rawhide so
you'll get it eventually..."

Thoughts?

Thanks,
Richard
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Re: FreeCAD required updates (PySide2 & Coin4)

[Mauricio Tavares]

Stupid question: does FreeCAD have nightly packages (like openscad)?
If so, how complicate would it be to run the coin4 version there for a
while so people can monkey with it and find issues? Then give some
time; if it seems to work happy, make it production.

Just my two pesos Russos.
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Re: FreeCAD required updates (PySide2 & Coin4)

[Simo Sorce]

On Tue, 2019-10-08 at 10:07 -0500, Richard Shaw wrote:
> On Tue, Oct 8, 2019 at 1:35 AM Ralf Corsepius  wrote:
> 
> > On 10/8/19 8:03 AM, Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek wrote:
> > > On Mon, Oct 07, 2019 at 04:34:28PM -0400, Scott Talbert wrote:
> > > > On Mon, 7 Oct 2019, Richard Shaw wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > > I am in the midst of updating the freecad package in two major ways:
> > > > > Qt4 -> Qt5 (via PySide -> PySide2, which also facilitates moving from
> > 
> > Python
> > > > > 2 to 3)
> > > > > and
> > > > > Coin3 -> Coin4 (Which requires several other packages move to Coin4)
> > > > > 
> > > > > I have been working with the Coin2/3, SoQt, & SIMVoleon maintainer
> > 
> > Ralf but
> > > > > I stopped getting responses. The last response by email being 
> > > > > September
> > > > > 13th.
> > > > > 
> > > > > I have even submitted pull requests so my requested changes can be
> > 
> > easily
> > > > > evaluated.
> > > > > 
> > > > > https://src.fedoraproject.org/rpms/SoQt/pull-request/2
> > > > > https://src.fedoraproject.org/rpms/OpenSceneGraph/pull-request/2
> > > > > https://src.fedoraproject.org/rpms/SIMVoleon/pull-request/1
> > > > > 
> > > > > Updating to Coin4 is required to take care of a longstanding bug[1]
> > > > > 
> > > > > So I'm trying to be nice but I don't think it's doing any good to wait
> > 
> > for a
> > > > > reply that may never come meanwhile the users could easily get the
> > 
> > idea that
> > > > > I (or Fedora) don't care about fixing bugs.
> > > 
> > > Those are fairly substantial changes, but time is of essence here.
> > 
> > I could not disagree more. Quality and stability is of more essence, here.
> > 
> 
> Very few of us (packagers) are computer scientists or the like or paid like
> RHEL to evaluate every possible problem that could arise with adopting new
> releases of software. Nor can we all be expected to backport fixes in every
> case. If you want that, run RHEL/CentOS instead. In the case of Coin4 is
> addresses a REAL issue with FreeCAD and Coin3. I built test packages of the
> whole stack and even went so far as to create a COPR to test the result and
> moving to Coin4 does indeed fix the problem with importing SVG images as
> geometry.
> 
> So what do you suggest I do instead? Fedora tends to run the latest
> versions of packages on purpose.
> 
> 
> > I reviewed all three PRs, and they look fine. (One needs a rebase).
> > > I think you should just push and build all packages.
> > 
> > You don't want to know what I think of this.
> > 
> 
> I knew you probably wouldn't like the changes which is why I bent over
> backwards to be nice about it including submitting pull requests and
> communicating with you over email.
> 
> I even implemented the alternatives for Coin4 that you have on Coin2/3 just
> so they would be compatible instead of just conflicting with Coin2 (which
> is a leaf package in Fedora and Coin3 which will be a leaf package after
> moving the dependencies over).
> 
> I appreciate all the work you did maintaining the Coin3D stack over the
> years in Fedora but at the end of the day we are package maintainers not
> owners, a clarification that was referenced a few years ago.
> 
> Unfortunately I had to resort to posting here on the mailing list to
> provoke a response because 3 emails and almost a month later you couldn't
> even reply just to say "I'm really busy but I will review your changes."
> 
> So again I ask, what was I supposed to do? Ignore a REAL issue because you
> don't like people touching your packages? Wait indefinitely?
> 
> How long would you wait if you were in my position? What should I have done
> differently?
> 
> FreeCAD has been in a terrible state in Fedora for years and after a crap
> ton of work with getting PySIde2 into Fedora, updating the Coin stack I
> would like to be able to ship FUNCTIONAL packages.
> 
> Thanks,
> Richard

Richard I use FreeCAD in Fedora and I want to tahnk you for your work,
it is really appreciated, I think you did the right thing given the
circumstances.

If a maintainer wants to have a say, they have to do the work, or be
completely responsive at least, otherwise they need to let go and let
the ones that care do the work have their way.

Simo.

-- 
Simo Sorce
RHEL Crypto Team
Red Hat, Inc



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Re: FreeCAD required updates (PySide2 & Coin4)

[Richard Shaw]

On Tue, Oct 8, 2019 at 1:35 AM Ralf Corsepius  wrote:

> On 10/8/19 8:03 AM, Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek wrote:
> > On Mon, Oct 07, 2019 at 04:34:28PM -0400, Scott Talbert wrote:
> >> On Mon, 7 Oct 2019, Richard Shaw wrote:
> >>
> >>> I am in the midst of updating the freecad package in two major ways:
> >>> Qt4 -> Qt5 (via PySide -> PySide2, which also facilitates moving from
> Python
> >>> 2 to 3)
> >>> and
> >>> Coin3 -> Coin4 (Which requires several other packages move to Coin4)
> >>>
> >>> I have been working with the Coin2/3, SoQt, & SIMVoleon maintainer
> Ralf but
> >>> I stopped getting responses. The last response by email being September
> >>> 13th.
> >>>
> >>> I have even submitted pull requests so my requested changes can be
> easily
> >>> evaluated.
> >>>
> >>> https://src.fedoraproject.org/rpms/SoQt/pull-request/2
> >>> https://src.fedoraproject.org/rpms/OpenSceneGraph/pull-request/2
> >>> https://src.fedoraproject.org/rpms/SIMVoleon/pull-request/1
> >>>
> >>> Updating to Coin4 is required to take care of a longstanding bug[1]
> >>>
> >>> So I'm trying to be nice but I don't think it's doing any good to wait
> for a
> >>> reply that may never come meanwhile the users could easily get the
> idea that
> >>> I (or Fedora) don't care about fixing bugs.
> >
> > Those are fairly substantial changes, but time is of essence here.
> I could not disagree more. Quality and stability is of more essence, here.
>

Very few of us (packagers) are computer scientists or the like or paid like
RHEL to evaluate every possible problem that could arise with adopting new
releases of software. Nor can we all be expected to backport fixes in every
case. If you want that, run RHEL/CentOS instead. In the case of Coin4 is
addresses a REAL issue with FreeCAD and Coin3. I built test packages of the
whole stack and even went so far as to create a COPR to test the result and
moving to Coin4 does indeed fix the problem with importing SVG images as
geometry.

So what do you suggest I do instead? Fedora tends to run the latest
versions of packages on purpose.


> I reviewed all three PRs, and they look fine. (One needs a rebase).
> > I think you should just push and build all packages.
>
> You don't want to know what I think of this.
>

I knew you probably wouldn't like the changes which is why I bent over
backwards to be nice about it including submitting pull requests and
communicating with you over email.

I even implemented the alternatives for Coin4 that you have on Coin2/3 just
so they would be compatible instead of just conflicting with Coin2 (which
is a leaf package in Fedora and Coin3 which will be a leaf package after
moving the dependencies over).

I appreciate all the work you did maintaining the Coin3D stack over the
years in Fedora but at the end of the day we are package maintainers not
owners, a clarification that was referenced a few years ago.

Unfortunately I had to resort to posting here on the mailing list to
provoke a response because 3 emails and almost a month later you couldn't
even reply just to say "I'm really busy but I will review your changes."

So again I ask, what was I supposed to do? Ignore a REAL issue because you
don't like people touching your packages? Wait indefinitely?

How long would you wait if you were in my position? What should I have done
differently?

FreeCAD has been in a terrible state in Fedora for years and after a crap
ton of work with getting PySIde2 into Fedora, updating the Coin stack I
would like to be able to ship FUNCTIONAL packages.

Thanks,
Richard
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Re: FreeCAD required updates (PySide2 & Coin4)

[Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek]

On Tue, Oct 08, 2019 at 08:32:47AM +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
> On 10/8/19 8:03 AM, Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek wrote:
> >On Mon, Oct 07, 2019 at 04:34:28PM -0400, Scott Talbert wrote:
> >>On Mon, 7 Oct 2019, Richard Shaw wrote:
> >>
> >>>I am in the midst of updating the freecad package in two major ways:
> >>>Qt4 -> Qt5 (via PySide -> PySide2, which also facilitates moving from 
> >>>Python
> >>>2 to 3)
> >>>and
> >>>Coin3 -> Coin4 (Which requires several other packages move to Coin4)
> >>>
> >>>I have been working with the Coin2/3, SoQt, & SIMVoleon maintainer Ralf but
> >>>I stopped getting responses. The last response by email being September
> >>>13th.
> >>>
> >>>I have even submitted pull requests so my requested changes can be easily
> >>>evaluated.
> >>>
> >>>https://src.fedoraproject.org/rpms/SoQt/pull-request/2
> >>>https://src.fedoraproject.org/rpms/OpenSceneGraph/pull-request/2
> >>>https://src.fedoraproject.org/rpms/SIMVoleon/pull-request/1
> >>>
> >>>Updating to Coin4 is required to take care of a longstanding bug[1]
> >>>
> >>>So I'm trying to be nice but I don't think it's doing any good to wait for 
> >>>a
> >>>reply that may never come meanwhile the users could easily get the idea 
> >>>that
> >>>I (or Fedora) don't care about fixing bugs.
> >
> >Those are fairly substantial changes, but time is of essence here.
> I could not disagree more. Quality and stability is of more essence, here.

Richard is working on updating Coin to the latest version along with the
dependent packages. The PRs were for rawhide. I don't think there's much
choice: we need to update to latest versions of packages and rawhide is
the appropriate place to do it, and we are early in the release cycle.

I merged the PRs without waiting for your confirmation because
a) this is rawhide
b) Coin4 is ready and built in rawhide, and it is better to get the transition
over and done with than wait.

Zbyszek
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Re: FreeCAD required updates (PySide2 & Coin4)

[Ralf Corsepius]

On 10/8/19 8:03 AM, Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek wrote:

On Mon, Oct 07, 2019 at 04:34:28PM -0400, Scott Talbert wrote:

On Mon, 7 Oct 2019, Richard Shaw wrote:


I am in the midst of updating the freecad package in two major ways:
Qt4 -> Qt5 (via PySide -> PySide2, which also facilitates moving from Python
2 to 3)
and
Coin3 -> Coin4 (Which requires several other packages move to Coin4)

I have been working with the Coin2/3, SoQt, & SIMVoleon maintainer Ralf but
I stopped getting responses. The last response by email being September
13th.

I have even submitted pull requests so my requested changes can be easily
evaluated.

https://src.fedoraproject.org/rpms/SoQt/pull-request/2
https://src.fedoraproject.org/rpms/OpenSceneGraph/pull-request/2
https://src.fedoraproject.org/rpms/SIMVoleon/pull-request/1

Updating to Coin4 is required to take care of a longstanding bug[1]

So I'm trying to be nice but I don't think it's doing any good to wait for a
reply that may never come meanwhile the users could easily get the idea that
I (or Fedora) don't care about fixing bugs.


Those are fairly substantial changes, but time is of essence here.

I could not disagree more. Quality and stability is of more essence, here.


I reviewed all three PRs, and they look fine. (One needs a rebase).
I think you should just push and build all packages.


You don't want to know what I think of this.


Ralf
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Re: FreeCAD required updates (PySide2 & Coin4)

[Ralf Corsepius]

On 10/7/19 10:23 PM, Richard Shaw wrote:

I am in the midst of updating the freecad package in two major ways:

Qt4 -> Qt5 (via PySide -> PySide2, which also facilitates moving from
Python 2 to 3)
and
Coin3 -> Coin4 (Which requires several other packages move to Coin4)

I have been working with the Coin2/3, SoQt, & SIMVoleon maintainer Ralf but
I stopped getting responses. The last response by email being September
13th.


But I am very busy with other topics these days and haven't had any 
chance to look into what you've done.


To say the least, I am actually feeling quite grumpy about what I 
perceive as hastiness on your part (Keep in mind Coin4 landed in rawhide 
yesterday).


Ralf

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Re: FreeCAD required updates (PySide2 & Coin4)

[Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek]

On Mon, Oct 07, 2019 at 04:34:28PM -0400, Scott Talbert wrote:
> On Mon, 7 Oct 2019, Richard Shaw wrote:
> 
> >I am in the midst of updating the freecad package in two major ways:
> >Qt4 -> Qt5 (via PySide -> PySide2, which also facilitates moving from Python
> >2 to 3)
> >and
> >Coin3 -> Coin4 (Which requires several other packages move to Coin4)
> >
> >I have been working with the Coin2/3, SoQt, & SIMVoleon maintainer Ralf but
> >I stopped getting responses. The last response by email being September
> >13th.
> >
> >I have even submitted pull requests so my requested changes can be easily
> >evaluated.
> >
> >https://src.fedoraproject.org/rpms/SoQt/pull-request/2 
> >https://src.fedoraproject.org/rpms/OpenSceneGraph/pull-request/2
> >https://src.fedoraproject.org/rpms/SIMVoleon/pull-request/1
> >
> >Updating to Coin4 is required to take care of a longstanding bug[1]
> >
> >So I'm trying to be nice but I don't think it's doing any good to wait for a
> >reply that may never come meanwhile the users could easily get the idea that
> >I (or Fedora) don't care about fixing bugs. 

Those are fairly substantial changes, but time is of essence here.
I reviewed all three PRs, and they look fine. (One needs a rebase).
I think you should just push and build all packages.

Zbyszek
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Re: FreeCAD required updates (PySide2 & Coin4)

[Scott Talbert]

On Mon, 7 Oct 2019, Richard Shaw wrote:


I am in the midst of updating the freecad package in two major ways:
Qt4 -> Qt5 (via PySide -> PySide2, which also facilitates moving from Python
2 to 3)
and
Coin3 -> Coin4 (Which requires several other packages move to Coin4)

I have been working with the Coin2/3, SoQt, & SIMVoleon maintainer Ralf but
I stopped getting responses. The last response by email being September
13th.

I have even submitted pull requests so my requested changes can be easily
evaluated.

https://src.fedoraproject.org/rpms/SoQt/pull-request/2 
https://src.fedoraproject.org/rpms/OpenSceneGraph/pull-request/2
https://src.fedoraproject.org/rpms/SIMVoleon/pull-request/1

Updating to Coin4 is required to take care of a longstanding bug[1]

So I'm trying to be nice but I don't think it's doing any good to wait for a
reply that may never come meanwhile the users could easily get the idea that
I (or Fedora) don't care about fixing bugs. 

Am I just being impatient? 


I also submitted a pull request to OpenSceneGraph that never got a 
response from him.  I had to request a provenpackager merge it.  So, 
you're probably not being impatient.  :)


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FreeCAD required updates (PySide2 & Coin4)

[Richard Shaw]

I am in the midst of updating the freecad package in two major ways:

Qt4 -> Qt5 (via PySide -> PySide2, which also facilitates moving from
Python 2 to 3)
and
Coin3 -> Coin4 (Which requires several other packages move to Coin4)

I have been working with the Coin2/3, SoQt, & SIMVoleon maintainer Ralf but
I stopped getting responses. The last response by email being September
13th.

I have even submitted pull requests so my requested changes can be easily
evaluated.

https://src.fedoraproject.org/rpms/SoQt/pull-request/2
https://src.fedoraproject.org/rpms/OpenSceneGraph/pull-request/2
https://src.fedoraproject.org/rpms/SIMVoleon/pull-request/1


Updating to Coin4 is required to take care of a longstanding bug[1]

So I'm trying to be nice but I don't think it's doing any good to wait for
a reply that may never come meanwhile the users could easily get the idea
that I (or Fedora) don't care about fixing bugs.

Am I just being impatient?

Thanks,
Richard
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