subject:"How can we make F17 be able to boot on Macs \(with or without reFit\)"

On Apr 28, 2012, at 1:53 PM, Chris Murphy wrote:

> 
> On Apr 28, 2012, at 1:22 PM, Chris Murphy wrote:
> 
>> File system errors left uncorrected, failure to install along side Mac OS, 
>> Mactel boot
>> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=817262

I have updated this bug. Does not occur with burned media. Only a dd'd USB 
stick, which fails verification but the user is not informed of the failure. 
I've recreated the USB stick twice, and both times if fails verification.

Interesting that "Use All Space" produces a bootable system. But "Replace 
Existing" and "Use Free Space" fail.

In any case, even with burned media and successful installation, the resulting 
F17 system is not choosable for booting. So dual boot installation is in effect 
a fail in all cases, I haven't figured out a work around.

==

Triple boot: Mac OS + Windows + Fedora is another matter, as Windows is 
rendered unbootable.

Because parted obliterates an existing hybrid MBR no matter what installation 
type is chosen, and the hybrid MBR is required for Windows to boot, any attempt 
to install F17 along side existing Mac OS + Windows will render Windows 
unbootable. The manual post install fix is to use gdisk to create a new hybrid 
MBR.

The question is how to position this in Release Notes or Installation Guide 
documentation. I think there should be a warning that Windows will be rendered 
unbootable, in any case:

1. Warn.
2. Warn and explain cause (hybrid MBR is removed).
3. Warn, explain, and suggest work around (gdisk).

I suggest option 1 or 2.

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Re: How can we make F17 be able to boot on Macs (with or without reFit)

On Apr 28, 2012, at 1:22 PM, Chris Murphy wrote:

> File system errors left uncorrected, failure to install along side Mac OS, 
> Mactel boot
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=817262

This problem is not occurring when using the LiveCD ISO burned to DVD-RW media. 
It's only occurring with a USB stick produced by dd'ing the LiveCD ISO. The 
GRUB option to Verify and Boot does not fail the USB stick.

New problem is that the successfully installed system (from LiveCD ISO burned 
to DVD-RW media), upon reboot, does not eject the disc, rather it boots from it 
not the HDD. When I reboot with option key at the startup chime, I'm presented 
with six icons, none of which are Fedora. If I boot Mac OS and go to System 
Preferences > Startup Disk, I have only a Mac OS option.

So Fedora was installed successfully, but can't be chosen as a boot option.

Chris Murphy

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Re: How can we make F17 be able to boot on Macs (with or without reFit)

On Apr 28, 2012, at 9:27 AM, Matthew Garrett wrote:

> This is a Radeon? We're doing something wrong in the DisplayPort setup, 
> and I'm trying to hunt it down - it seems to affect most modern Macs 
> with Radeons.

Yes, both Radeon and Intel Graphics are on that mDP port.

As for this:
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=817262

I'm 5 for 5 attempts with the LiveCD. Installation along side Mac OS is 
presently a fail. And I'm not finding a work around, other than possibly 
installing Mac OS X after Fedora might work. But alongside an existing is not.

I can go to a console while booted from the LiveCD, and use 'mke2fs -t ext4' on 
the same lv_home, and right after that e2fsck is completely clean. But through 
the installer, the resulting file system is somehow trashed every time. Yet 
this wasn't happening with "Use All Space" option.

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Re: How can we make F17 be able to boot on Macs (with or without reFit)

2012-04-28 Thread Matthew Garrett

On Sat, Apr 28, 2012 at 02:11:06AM -0600, Chris Murphy wrote:

> Problem: Flakey reboot and poweroffs. CSM boot and installs were 
> lightening fast with previous FC17 builds. EFI boot reboots, after 
> executing command, result in a 1-2 minute hang. I can switch consoles, 
> but they are unresponsive and provide no information. Presently on the 
> MBP4,1 it's been hanging for 8 minutes so I'm going to force it off 
> with the power button. File a bug? I don't know what to add or 
> include.

I /think/ this is a generic problem somewhere in userspace - I've seen 
the same on other machines. I'll try to track it down this week if 
nobody else is.

> MacbookPro8,2: Major improvement in that I no longer have a garbled 
> display. However either with or without 'nomodeset' it only boots so 
> far and then dies: no further activity from USB stick, can't blindly 
> get to a console and reboot or dmesg out to another stick; if I attach 
> another USB device, no activity from it or the boot USB stick. So I'm 
> not sure what's going on.

This is a Radeon? We're doing something wrong in the DisplayPort setup, 
and I'm trying to hunt it down - it seems to affect most modern Macs 
with Radeons.

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Re: How can we make F17 be able to boot on Macs (with or without reFit)

Dual boot Mac OS 10.7 + F17, MBP4,1.

Failure after partitioning/lvm/filesystem creation, and before copying live 
image beings. Error message:

"ext4 filesystem check failure on /dev/mapper/vg_f17s-lv_root:
File system errors left uncorrected.
 "

This is a 1 fail for 1 attempt, with this configuration. I've posted logs and 
steps in this bug, and will try and reproduce it again myself after I get some 
sleep:

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=817262
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Re: How can we make F17 be able to boot on Macs (with or without reFit)

On Apr 28, 2012, at 12:58 AM, Chris Murphy wrote:
> 
> "There was an error installing the bootloader. The system may not be 
> bootable." System is in fact not bootable. Filed a bug with anaconda logs:
> 
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=817225

Could be false alarm due to me unchecking packages in Customize Now, to save 
time. Not reproducible with DVD Graphical Desktop default. Bootloader error is 
reproducible if I do it again unchecking a bunch of things. So my confusion is 
probably that I don't expect anaconda to let me customize packages that result 
in a broken installation. Updated bug including what options I unchecked.

Problem: Flakey reboot and poweroffs. CSM boot and installs were lightening 
fast with previous FC17 builds. EFI boot reboots, after executing command, 
result in a 1-2 minute hang. I can switch consoles, but they are unresponsive 
and provide no information. Presently on the MBP4,1 it's been hanging for 8 
minutes so I'm going to force it off with the power button. File a bug? I don't 
know what to add or include.

MacbookPro8,2: Major improvement in that I no longer have a garbled display. 
However either with or without 'nomodeset' it only boots so far and then dies: 
no further activity from USB stick, can't blindly get to a console and reboot 
or dmesg out to another stick; if I attach another USB device, no activity from 
it or the boot USB stick. So I'm not sure what's going on.

I have photos of the screen, but it's not very illuminating, lemme know if they 
should go in this bug, or start a new one.

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=765954
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Re: How can we make F17 be able to boot on Macs (with or without reFit)

2012-04-27 Thread Chris Murphy

On Apr 27, 2012, at 10:21 AM, Adam Williamson wrote:
> So, long story short - we'll be very interested in reports of
> success/failure with TC2 (which should show up tonight or tomorrow)

DVD ISO burned to DVD-RW media: Boots EFI mode, with nouveau, with X, just fine 
off media as the LiveCD cases I mention below. However, at the end of the 
installation I get an error "There was an error installing the bootloader. The 
system may not be bootable." System is in fact not bootable. Filed a bug with 
anaconda logs:

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=817225

LiveCD. Holy crap the whole thing works. EFI boot and install. Works. Macbook 
Pro 4,1 (2008).
LiveCD ISO burned to DVD-RW media = boots, installs, reboots.
LiveCD ISO dd'd to USB stick = boots, installs, reboots.

Question 1:
Is this bug fixed?! Nouveau is working for the first time ever with EFI booting 
on this hardware.
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=751147

Question 2:
Most Mac users will boot CD/DVD media with a 'c' key. Should it be documented 
somewhere to boot with the option key at the startup chime? Previously, 'c' key 
would get me a working CSM boot, but that is no longer the case with at least 
DVD TC2, I get a flashing white cursor (I understand this is not expected to 
work, hence wondering if it's worth mentioning somewhere.)

--

Next testing MBP8,2. And then dual boot once 10.7.x is done installing on the 
MBP4,1.
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Re: How can we make F17 be able to boot on Macs (with or without reFit)

2012-04-27 Thread Adam Williamson

On Thu, 2012-04-26 at 13:34 +0100, Bastien Nocera wrote:
> On Tue, 2012-04-24 at 22:31 +0100, Matthew Garrett wrote:
> > (Note: *DO NOT* run the installer that is on this image. You'll probably 
> > end up with a broken grub. Should be fixed soon)
> > 
> > I've put a test image up at 
> > http://mjg59.fedorapeople.org/Fedora-Mac-EFI-test.iso - this should work 
> > if burned to a CD or dded to a USB stick. Insert, hold down alt, select 
> > the Fedora logo. Possible outcomes:
> 
> I cannot see the Fedora logo at all. I see 2 additional "EFI Boot"
> options (I would usually only see "rEFIt" and "Windows", as the firmware
> calls my Linux booting through MBR), and both of them take me to a grub
> prompt that asks me for a kernel to be loaded.
> 
> MacBookAir4,1 (2011 11" one)
> 
> Did you have a newer version to test?

TC1 is the current state of the art:

http://dl.fedoraproject.org/pub/alt/stage/17.TC1/

with TC1, we think, the live images written to USB with l-i-t-d (use the
very latest livecd-tools you can find) or dd should boot on at least
most Mactels. The DVD / netinst image written to USB apparently doesn't
work (though the new livecd-tools might change that).

There will be a TC2 shortly incorporating a new anaconda and built with
a new livecd-tools; TC2 written with the very latest livecd-tools
(updates are submitted for 16 and 17) should be the best we can do, and
a significant improvement for EFI / Mac booting, lots of bugs have been
squished. Additionally, it makes dd of the DVD ISO to USB 'just work' -
it will pick up the packages on the USB stick without any manual kernel
parameter addition being needed. Which is cool.

So, long story short - we'll be very interested in reports of
success/failure with TC2 (which should show up tonight or tomorrow)
written with dd or the very latest livecd-tools builds for F16/F17:
livecd-tools-16.14-1.fc16 and livecd-tools-17.10-1.fc17 .
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Re: How can we make F17 be able to boot on Macs (with or without reFit)

2012-04-26 Thread Andreas Tunek

I get an md5 error when I try to make a live usb with fedora's
live-usb creator. Anyone else seen this?
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Re: How can we make F17 be able to boot on Macs (with or without reFit)

2012-04-26 Thread Bastien Nocera

On Tue, 2012-04-24 at 22:31 +0100, Matthew Garrett wrote:
> (Note: *DO NOT* run the installer that is on this image. You'll probably 
> end up with a broken grub. Should be fixed soon)
> 
> I've put a test image up at 
> http://mjg59.fedorapeople.org/Fedora-Mac-EFI-test.iso - this should work 
> if burned to a CD or dded to a USB stick. Insert, hold down alt, select 
> the Fedora logo. Possible outcomes:

I cannot see the Fedora logo at all. I see 2 additional "EFI Boot"
options (I would usually only see "rEFIt" and "Windows", as the firmware
calls my Linux booting through MBR), and both of them take me to a grub
prompt that asks me for a kernel to be loaded.

MacBookAir4,1 (2011 11" one)

Did you have a newer version to test?

> 1) Complete failure. I've fixed all the cases I know of that could cause 
> this, but there may still be possibilities. Please file a bug.
> 2) Boots, but graphics don't work. Please try with nomodeset as a kernel 
> option, then file a bug.
> 3) Success. Hurrah! Do nothing more.

Cheers

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Re: How can we make F17 be able to boot on Macs (with or without reFit)

2012-04-25 Thread Matthew Garrett

On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 01:39:20AM +0100, Matthew Garrett wrote:
> Ok, I'll have to look at the CD issue. Can you report the initramfs 
> problem?

Figured out the CD problem, I'll push a fix to git. Looking at the 
initramfs problem now.

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Re: How can we make F17 be able to boot on Macs (with or without reFit)

2012-04-25 Thread Peter Jones


On 04/24/2012 10:20 PM, John Reiser wrote:

Choosing the Windows logo gets a VGA-like display (black with white
character-cell text):
   1.
   2.
   3.
  Select CD-ROM Boot Type :
and there is no response to console keyboard.  So FAIL again.


Even though this disc is wrong for that machine, so the test isn't really valid,
it's worth mentioning that *any* time you see this screen, it's a bug in the
CSM - the BIOS emulation layer on top of UEFI is completely failing to comply
with the El Torito standard for CD booting when it sees multiple boot sections
on a CD.  Rather than implementing correct support to select which boot
section to use, this version of the CSM, which is shared among Apple machines
and other vendors' alike, presents all of the choices as a menu instead.

Awesomely the keyboard driver not being present is a /second/ firmware bug. On
some machines it is present, and on those selecting "1" will work and continue
booting as if on a BIOS machine.

Apple have fixed this on newer hardware, but I don't think they've ever pushed
a fix back to this generation.

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Re: How can we make F17 be able to boot on Macs (with or without reFit)

2012-04-24 Thread Chris Murphy



On Apr 24, 2012, at 7:39 PM, Matthew Garrett wrote:

> On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 07:08:39PM -0600, Chris Murphy wrote:
>> 
>> On Apr 24, 2012, at 6:39 PM, Matthew Garrett wrote:
>> 
>>> Ok, I'll have to look at the CD issue. Can you report the initramfs 
>>> problem?
>> 
>> Yes. What component?
> 
> Put it against the kernel for now, and we'll see if we can figure out 
> what's going on.

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=816040
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Re: How can we make F17 be able to boot on Macs (with or without reFit)

On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 07:20:00PM -0700, John Reiser wrote:

> Booting with C key held down [no Shift; should force "default" CD/DVD choice]
> gives the same as choosing Windows logo from booting with Alt held down.
> FAIL the third time.
> 
> Which component should I file for bugzilla?

Ah, sorry, I should have specified - this will only work on machines 
with 64-bit firmware, which is basically any machine released after 
mid-2007. My fault.

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Re: How can we make F17 be able to boot on Macs (with or without reFit)

2012-04-24 Thread John Reiser

> http://mjg59.fedorapeople.org/Fedora-Mac-EFI-test.iso

On Apple Macmini1,1 Intel Core Duo [i686 only] booted with DVD in builtin
drive and Alt held down:  I get one EFI Boot with Fedora logo, and one
Windows with platter logo (and two harddrive logos, corresponding to
pre-existing resident OS).

Choosing EFI Boot diplays a large folder icon with a question mark, which
blinks a couple times; then the regular Apple large logo and normal Apple boot.
So FAIL for Fedora EFI boot.

Choosing the Windows logo gets a VGA-like display (black with white
character-cell text):
  1.
  2.
  3.
 Select CD-ROM Boot Type :
and there is no response to console keyboard.  So FAIL again.

Booting with C key held down [no Shift; should force "default" CD/DVD choice]
gives the same as choosing Windows logo from booting with Alt held down.
FAIL the third time.

Which component should I file for bugzilla?

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Re: How can we make F17 be able to boot on Macs (with or without reFit)

On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 07:08:39PM -0600, Chris Murphy wrote:
> 
> On Apr 24, 2012, at 6:39 PM, Matthew Garrett wrote:
> 
> > Ok, I'll have to look at the CD issue. Can you report the initramfs 
> > problem?
> 
> Yes. What component?

Put it against the kernel for now, and we'll see if we can figure out 
what's going on.

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Re: How can we make F17 be able to boot on Macs (with or without reFit)

2012-04-24 Thread Chris Murphy


On Apr 24, 2012, at 6:39 PM, Matthew Garrett wrote:

> Ok, I'll have to look at the CD issue. Can you report the initramfs 
> problem?

Yes. What component?


Chris Murphy
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Re: How can we make F17 be able to boot on Macs (with or without reFit)

Ok, I'll have to look at the CD issue. Can you report the initramfs 
problem?

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Re: How can we make F17 be able to boot on Macs (with or without reFit)

2012-04-24 Thread Chris Murphy

On Apr 24, 2012, at 3:31 PM, Matthew Garrett wrote:

> (Note: *DO NOT* run the installer that is on this image. You'll probably 
> end up with a broken grub. Should be fixed soon)
> 
> I've put a test image up at 
> http://mjg59.fedorapeople.org/Fedora-Mac-EFI-test.iso - this should work 
> if burned to a CD or dded to a USB stick. Insert, hold down alt, select 
> the Fedora logo. Possible outcomes:
> 
> 1) Complete failure. I've fixed all the cases I know of that could cause 
> this, but there may still be possibilities. Please file a bug.
> 2) Boots, but graphics don't work. Please try with nomodeset as a kernel 
> option, then file a bug.
> 3) Success. Hurrah! Do nothing more.

2008 MacBook Pro 4,1 results:

DVD: Three EFI Boot options, one has a Fedora logo. All drop me to a GRUB 0.97 
prompt.

USB stick: Initramfs unpacking failed: broken padding. Kernel panic - not 
syncing: No init found.

Each reproducible 3x.
==

2011 MacBook Pro 8,2 results:
--

DVD: Two EFI Boot options, one has a Fedora logo. Both drop me to a GRUB 0.97 
prompt.

USB stick: Video problem as described in Bug 765954, however it only goes half 
way down and there's no further USB activity. Switching to console and issuing 
reboot commands doesn't work (like it does with a livecd-iso-to-disk produced 
stick), so I'm thinking probably a kernel panic here too but I can't tell why.
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=765954

Also each reproducible 3x.

How many bug reports do you want? One for all, one for each model, one for each 
result? And against what components?

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Re: How can we make F17 be able to boot on Macs (with or without reFit)

Ok, once hitch with this. Due to an error on my part it's possible that 
the Fedora logo option may not work. In that case, plesae try one of the 
other "EFI Boot" options.

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Re: How can we make F17 be able to boot on Macs (with or without reFit)

(Note: *DO NOT* run the installer that is on this image. You'll probably 
end up with a broken grub. Should be fixed soon)

I've put a test image up at 
http://mjg59.fedorapeople.org/Fedora-Mac-EFI-test.iso - this should work 
if burned to a CD or dded to a USB stick. Insert, hold down alt, select 
the Fedora logo. Possible outcomes:

1) Complete failure. I've fixed all the cases I know of that could cause 
this, but there may still be possibilities. Please file a bug.
2) Boots, but graphics don't work. Please try with nomodeset as a kernel 
option, then file a bug.
3) Success. Hurrah! Do nothing more.

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Re: How can we make F17 be able to boot on Macs (with or without reFit)

On Mar 13, 2012, at 3:37 PM, Matthew Garrett wrote:

> Yes, and support for handling and managing hybrid MBRs is difficult. 
> Apple can manage it by simply constraining it to a very simple case. 
> Create more partitions and disk utility stops wanting to be your friend. 
> Trying to handle hybrid media in the larger number of storage cases we 
> have to support is a non-starter.

Perhaps it's unreasonable to try to handle the larger number of storage cases 
with Apple hardware, at least in the short/medium term. Limiting the possible 
cases, it's at least possible to have a functioning system, with a GUI, using 
CSM-BIOS+hybrid MBR.

With a wider set of cases, I have effectively a useless system in all such 
cases with EFI, as I have no graphics with either test hardware. And one of 
them I have neither graphics nor text with built-in display, I can only 
interact via ssh - requiring a 2nd system to do so.

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Re: How can we make F17 be able to boot on Macs (with or without reFit)

2012-03-13 Thread Matthew Garrett

On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 02:26:03PM -0600, Chris Murphy wrote:

> CSM boot from install media does work. CSM installations don't reboot 
> successfully, without manual creation of a hybrid MBR.

Yes, and support for handling and managing hybrid MBRs is difficult. 
Apple can manage it by simply constraining it to a very simple case. 
Create more partitions and disk utility stops wanting to be your friend. 
Trying to handle hybrid media in the larger number of storage cases we 
have to support is a non-starter.

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Re: How can we make F17 be able to boot on Macs (with or without reFit)

On Mar 13, 2012, at 2:07 PM, Matthew Garrett wrote:
> 
> You pointed out that CSM installs don't work - the partition table is 
> entirely inappropriate for them. We're not planning on fixing that.

CSM boot from install media does work. CSM installations don't reboot 
successfully, without manual creation of a hybrid MBR.

While I understand the reluctance to support hybrid MBR, that is how Apple 
supports Windows CSM installations. I don't know which is more difficult, 
squashing the myriad VBIOS bugs with Apple EFI booting, or tolerating hybrid 
MBRs.

Even with successful livecd-iso-to-disk USB stick boots in EFI, both of my test 
computers have outstanding video bugs that translate into no GUI. By 
successful, I mean the kernel, initrd, and services load - except for X and 
gnome/kde. I can ssh in and interact text only.

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=765954
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=751147

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Re: How can we make F17 be able to boot on Macs (with or without reFit)

2012-03-13 Thread Matthew Garrett

On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 02:02:50PM -0600, Chris Murphy wrote:
> On Mar 13, 2012, at 7:10 AM, Matthew Garrett wrote:
> 
> > On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 03:06:31AM -0600, Chris Murphy wrote:
> > 
> >> EFI Boot= Grub prompt, no menu
> > 
> > Can you type "root" and see what it says, followed by "findiso" and then 
> > "root"?
> 
> USB stick:
> grub> root
>   (hd0,2,a): Filesystem type unknown, partition type 0x0
> grub> findiso
> grub> root
>  (hd0): Filesystem type is iso9660,  using whole disk
> 
> DVD:
> grub> root
>   (hd0,2,a): Filesystem type unknown, partition type 0x0
> grub> findiso
> grub> root
>   (fd256): Filesystem type is iso9660, using whole disk

Interesting. This probably means that grub is failing to find its config 
file for some reason, which really isn't something that should go wrong. 
I'll look into it.

> > This too. Can you try adding "noefi" to the kernel command line for 
> > both?
> 
> Makes no difference in either case. Same result. This is inserted after 
> 'rd.dm=0'.

Ok, so it's nothing to do with our efi accesses. Irritating. I'll 
probably need to track down hardware.

> > 
> > CSM boots aren't expected to work in the slightest.
> 
> But it does work. All the way to anaconda and installation. It's the EFI 
> options that aren't working so far.

You pointed out that CSM installs don't work - the partition table is 
entirely inappropriate for them. We're not planning on fixing that.

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Re: How can we make F17 be able to boot on Macs (with or without reFit)

Detail version of previous post's in-line summary results.


Burned to DVD
--
Macbook Pro 4,1 (2008)
 Four additional CD/DVD icon options labeled as: Windows, EFI Boot, EFI Boot, 
EFI Boot
*2nd EFI Boot option has a custom Fedora logo icon, not generic CD/DVD icon.

1. Windows= Boots fine, all the way to anaconda.

2. EFI Boot= Grub prompt, no menu.
grub> root
  (hd0,2,a): Filesystem type unknown, partition type 0x0
grub> findiso
grub> root
  (fd256): Filesystem type is iso9660, using whole disk


3. *EFI Boot= Grub prompt, no menu
grub> root
  (hd0,2,a): Filesystem type unknown, partition type 0x0
grub> findiso
grub> root
  (fd256): Filesystem type is iso9660, using whole disk


4. EFI Boot= Boots Mac OS X. 


Macbook Pro 8,2 (2011)
Three additional CD/DVD icon options labeled as: Windows, EFI Boot, EFI Boot
*2nd EFI Boot option has a custom Fedora logo icon, not generic CD/DVD icon.

1. Windows=Boots CSM/BIOS mode successfully, to anaconda.

2. EFI Boot= Grub prompt, no menu
grub> root
  (hd0,2,a): Filesystem type unknown, partition type 0x0
grub> findiso
grub> root
  (fd256): Filesystem type is iso9660, using whole disk


3. *EFI Boot= Grub prompt, no menu
grub> root
  (hd0,2,a): Filesystem type unknown, partition type 0x0
grub> findiso
grub> root
  (fd256): Filesystem type is iso9660, using whole disk




dd to USB stick
--
Macbook Pro 4,1 (2008)
 Four additional CD/DVD icon options labeled as: Windows, EFI Boot, EFI Boot, 
EFI Boot
*2nd EFI Boot option has a custom Fedora logo icon, not generic CD/DVD icon.

1. EFI Boot= Grub menu, loads from stick for ~45 seconds then reboots machine.
When inserting noefi as kernel parameter, there is no change in behavior. FYI 
I'm inserting it right after 'rd.dm=0'.

2. *EFI Boot= Grub prompt, no menu
grub> root
  (hd0,2,a): Filesystem type unknown, partition type 0x0
grub> findiso
grub> root
 (hd0): Filesystem type is iso9660,  using whole disk

3. EFI Boot= Grub menu, loads from stick for ~45 seconds then reboots machine
When inserting noefi as kernel parameter, there is no change in behavior.


Macbook Pro 8,2 (2011)
Three additional CD/DVD icon options labeled as: EFI Boot, EFI Boot, EFI Boot
*2nd icon is a custom Fedora logo icon, not generic USB icon.

1. EFI Boot= Grub menu, loads from stick for ~6 seconds, then beeping, must 
force shutdown.
With noefi as kernel parameter, no change in behavior.

2. *EFI Boot= Grub prompt, no menu
grub> root
  (hd0,2,a): Filesystem type unknown, partition type 0x0
grub> findiso
grub> root
 (hd0): Filesystem type is iso9660,  using whole disk

3. EFI Boot= Grub menu, loads from stick for ~6 seconds, then beeping, must 
force shutdown.
With noefi as kernel parameter, no change in behavior.
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Re: How can we make F17 be able to boot on Macs (with or without reFit)

On Mar 13, 2012, at 7:10 AM, Matthew Garrett wrote:

> On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 03:06:31AM -0600, Chris Murphy wrote:
> 
>> EFI Boot= Grub prompt, no menu
> 
> Can you type "root" and see what it says, followed by "findiso" and then 
> "root"?

USB stick:
grub> root
  (hd0,2,a): Filesystem type unknown, partition type 0x0
grub> findiso
grub> root
 (hd0): Filesystem type is iso9660,  using whole disk

DVD:
grub> root
  (hd0,2,a): Filesystem type unknown, partition type 0x0
grub> findiso
grub> root
  (fd256): Filesystem type is iso9660, using whole disk



> 
>> EFI Boot= Grub menu, loads from stick for ~45 seconds then reboots machine
> 
> That'll be a kernel bug of some description...
> 
>> EFI Boot= Grub menu, loads from stick for ~6 seconds, then beeping, must 
>> force shutdown.
> 
> This too. Can you try adding "noefi" to the kernel command line for 
> both?

Makes no difference in either case. Same result. This is inserted after 
'rd.dm=0'.

> 
> CSM boots aren't expected to work in the slightest.

But it does work. All the way to anaconda and installation. It's the EFI 
options that aren't working so far.


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Re: How can we make F17 be able to boot on Macs (with or without reFit)

2012-03-13 Thread Matthew Garrett

On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 03:06:31AM -0600, Chris Murphy wrote:

> EFI Boot= Grub prompt, no menu

Can you type "root" and see what it says, followed by "findiso" and then 
"root"?

> EFI Boot= Grub menu, loads from stick for ~45 seconds then reboots machine

That'll be a kernel bug of some description...

> EFI Boot= Grub menu, loads from stick for ~6 seconds, then beeping, must 
> force shutdown.

This too. Can you try adding "noefi" to the kernel command line for 
both?

CSM boots aren't expected to work in the slightest.
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Re: How can we make F17 be able to boot on Macs (with or without reFit)

2012-03-13 Thread Andreas Tunek

Thanks for all your testing! It certainly seems like Fedora has quite a way
to go before it is possible to install on "clean" macs.

Have you done any testing using refit, or is this all with vanilla apple
efi?
On Mar 13, 2012 10:06 AM, "Chris Murphy"  wrote:
>
> On Feb 28, 2012, at 12:53 PM, Matthew Garrett wrote:
>
> > Yes. I'm mostly working on the netinst isos, and right now if you take
> > that and dd it onto a USB stick, then insert that and hold down alt on
> > boot, you'll get a Mac install. Unfortunately, alpha ended up getting
> > built with a grub that dies on any Macs that don't have built-in
> > ethernet, so you may have some problems with that. The alpha kernel also
> > has a bug that seems to trigger on Macs that results in incredible
> > slowness. But other than that! Fixed kernel is in the archive now, and
> > I've just commited a fix for the grub bug.
>
> Fedora-17-Beta-TC1-x86_64-netinst.iso. I'm getting the same problems as
with alpha ISO.
>
>
> Burned to DVD
> --
> Macbook Pro 4,1 (2008)
> Four additional CD/DVD icon options labeled as: Windows, EFI Boot, EFI
Boot, EFI Boot
> *2nd EFI Boot option has a custom Fedora logo icon, not generic CD/DVD
icon.
>
> Windows=Boots CSM/BIOS mode successfully
> EFI Boot= Grub prompt, no menu
> *EFI Boot= Grub prompt, no menu
> EFI Boot= Boots Mac OS X
>
>
> Macbook Pro 8,2 (2011)
> Three additional CD/DVD icon options labeled as: Windows, EFI Boot, EFI
Boot
> *2nd EFI Boot option has a custom Fedora logo icon, not generic CD/DVD
icon.
>
> Windows=Boots CSM/BIOS mode successfully
> EFI Boot= Grub prompt, no menu
> *EFI Boot= Grub prompt, no menu
>
>
>
> dd to USB stick
> --
> Macbook Pro 4,1 (2008)
> Three additional USB icon options labeled as: EFI Boot, EFI Boot, EFI Boot
> *2nd icon is a custom Fedora logo icon, not generic USB icon.
>
> EFI Boot= Grub menu, loads from stick for ~45 seconds then reboots machine
> *EFI Boot= Grub prompt, no menu
> EFI Boot= Grub menu, loads from stick for ~45 seconds then reboots machine
>
>
> Macbook Pro 8,2 (2011)
> Three additional CD/DVD icon options labeled as: EFI Boot, EFI Boot, EFI
Boot
> *2nd icon is a custom Fedora logo icon, not generic USB icon.
>
> EFI Boot= Grub menu, loads from stick for ~6 seconds, then beeping, must
force shutdown.
> *EFI Boot= Grub prompt, no menu
> EFI Boot= Grub menu, loads from stick for ~6 seconds, then beeping, must
force shutdown.
>
>
> Further, upon completion of CSM-BIOS installation, Fedora isn't bootable
by default because a hybrid MBR hasn't been created, requiring manual post
install work to make it bootable. Same situation as F16.
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=746901
>
>
> Chris Murphy
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Re: How can we make F17 be able to boot on Macs (with or without reFit)

On Feb 28, 2012, at 12:53 PM, Matthew Garrett wrote:

> Yes. I'm mostly working on the netinst isos, and right now if you take 
> that and dd it onto a USB stick, then insert that and hold down alt on 
> boot, you'll get a Mac install. Unfortunately, alpha ended up getting 
> built with a grub that dies on any Macs that don't have built-in 
> ethernet, so you may have some problems with that. The alpha kernel also 
> has a bug that seems to trigger on Macs that results in incredible 
> slowness. But other than that! Fixed kernel is in the archive now, and 
> I've just commited a fix for the grub bug.

Fedora-17-Beta-TC1-x86_64-netinst.iso. I'm getting the same problems as with 
alpha ISO.

Burned to DVD
--
Macbook Pro 4,1 (2008)
Four additional CD/DVD icon options labeled as: Windows, EFI Boot, EFI Boot, 
EFI Boot
*2nd EFI Boot option has a custom Fedora logo icon, not generic CD/DVD icon.

Windows=Boots CSM/BIOS mode successfully
EFI Boot= Grub prompt, no menu
*EFI Boot= Grub prompt, no menu
EFI Boot= Boots Mac OS X

Macbook Pro 8,2 (2011)
Three additional CD/DVD icon options labeled as: Windows, EFI Boot, EFI Boot
*2nd EFI Boot option has a custom Fedora logo icon, not generic CD/DVD icon.

Windows=Boots CSM/BIOS mode successfully
EFI Boot= Grub prompt, no menu
*EFI Boot= Grub prompt, no menu

dd to USB stick
--
Macbook Pro 4,1 (2008)
Three additional USB icon options labeled as: EFI Boot, EFI Boot, EFI Boot
*2nd icon is a custom Fedora logo icon, not generic USB icon.

EFI Boot= Grub menu, loads from stick for ~45 seconds then reboots machine
*EFI Boot= Grub prompt, no menu
EFI Boot= Grub menu, loads from stick for ~45 seconds then reboots machine

Macbook Pro 8,2 (2011)
Three additional CD/DVD icon options labeled as: EFI Boot, EFI Boot, EFI Boot
*2nd icon is a custom Fedora logo icon, not generic USB icon.

EFI Boot= Grub menu, loads from stick for ~6 seconds, then beeping, must force 
shutdown.
*EFI Boot= Grub prompt, no menu
EFI Boot= Grub menu, loads from stick for ~6 seconds, then beeping, must force 
shutdown.

Further, upon completion of CSM-BIOS installation, Fedora isn't bootable by 
default because a hybrid MBR hasn't been created, requiring manual post install 
work to make it bootable. Same situation as F16.
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=746901

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Re: How can we make F17 be able to boot on Macs (with or without reFit)

2012-03-05 Thread Chris Murphy

On Feb 28, 2012, at 12:53 PM, Matthew Garrett wrote:
> Yes. I'm mostly working on the netinst isos, and right now if you take 
> that and dd it onto a USB stick, then insert that and hold down alt on 
> boot, you'll get a Mac install.

OK so color me extremely confused. Starting with a zero'd USB stick (no APM, 
GPT or MBR), dd'ing the netinst.iso to the stick, I end up with a stick that 
all tools claims has a GPT, but is a broken GPT (see previous emails on this).

When I burn it to a DVD, diskutil and gdisk claim the partition scheme is APM! 
It's not GPT at all as far as they are concerned. I don't know how this is 
possible...but I've reproduced the results twice.

DVD version behaviors, on a 2008 Macbook Pro:

1.) Upon boot with option key, to get the Apple-EFI boot screen, there are four 
new options. Windows, EFI Boot, EFI Boot, EFI Boot.

a.) When I choose the CD/DVD icon labeled Windows, I get syslinux, and then a 
menu from which I can start Fedora. It produces a text anaconda installer which 
appears to function, although I did not proceed with an installation.

b.) When I choose the CD/DVD icon labeled EFI Boot, I'm dropped to a GRUB 
prompt.

c.) When I choose the Fedora icon labeled EFI Boot, I'm dropped to a GRUB 
prompt.

d.) When I choose the last CD/DVD icon labeled EFI Boot, a Mac OS login window 
appears and the computer appears to be booting from the hard drive, not the DVD 
at all.

On a 2011 Macbook Pro, there are only three new boot options when the DVD is 
present with behaviors 1a, 1b, and 1c. (Icon 1d is not presented.)

In any case, only the "Windows" option, which results in a CSM-BIOS mode boot, 
produces a booted system from which Fedora can be installed.

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Re: How can we make F17 be able to boot on Macs (with or without reFit)

On Feb 28, 2012, at 2:37 PM, Chris Murphy wrote:

>> 
>> Starting with a USB stick produced with the following:
>> http://mirrors.yocum.org/fedora/releases/test/17-Alpha/Fedora/x86_64/iso/Fedora-17-Alpha-x86_64-netinst.iso
>> 
>> dd if=Fedora-17-Alpha-x86_64-netinst.iso of=/dev/rdisk1
> 
> I'm not sure if this is expected or not, but I make the following 
> observations about the resulting USB stick, which appears to have a bogus GPT 
> according to three utilities.

parted can't fix it.

gdisk then says the GPT is damaged and will not fix/restore the 1st partition 
which contains the bulk of the boot data.

gpt bails entirely.

AFAIK this ISO isn't valid, insofar as the GPT is invalid, but I'm not sure if 
that relates to the booting problems both computers are having.

I'm going to try making an EFI bootable USB stick using the latest livecd-tools 
and the F17-alpha-LiveCD and see where that takes me.

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Re: How can we make F17 be able to boot on Macs (with or without reFit)

> 
> Starting with a USB stick produced with the following:
> http://mirrors.yocum.org/fedora/releases/test/17-Alpha/Fedora/x86_64/iso/Fedora-17-Alpha-x86_64-netinst.iso
> 
> dd if=Fedora-17-Alpha-x86_64-netinst.iso of=/dev/rdisk1

I'm not sure if this is expected or not, but I make the following observations 
about the resulting USB stick, which appears to have a bogus GPT according to 
three utilities.

1.
GPT fdisk (gdisk) version 0.8.2

Partition table scan:
 MBR: protective
 BSD: not present
 APM: not present
 GPT: present

Found valid GPT with protective MBR; using GPT.
Warning! Main partition table overlaps the first partition by 48 blocks!
You will need to delete this partition or resize it in another utility.
Disk /dev/disk1: 3915776 sectors, 1.9 GiB
Logical sector size: 512 bytes
Disk identifier (GUID): E2E967A4-B1E8-4D61-9F5D-37F99C3E603E
Partition table holds up to 128 entries
First usable sector is 48, last usable sector is 319454
Partitions will be aligned on 4-sector boundaries
Total free space is 1550 sectors (775.0 KiB)

Number  Start (sector)End (sector)  Size   Code  Name
  2   58168   59483   658.0 KiB   0700  卉䡏批楲d灁汰e灁汰
  3   59484   61323   920.0 KiB   AF00  卉䡏批楲d灁汰e灁汰

Similar results but different Name encoding for gdisk on Fedora.


2.
parted on F17

Error: The backup GPT table is not at the end of the disk, as it should be.
This might mean that another operating system believes the disk is smaller.
Fix, by moving the backup to the end (and removing the old backup)?
Fix/Ignore/Cancel? i  
Warning: Not all of the space available to /dev/sdb appears to be used, you can
fix the GPT to use all of the space (an extra 3596288 blocks) or continue with
the current setting? 
Fix/Ignore? i 
Error: Unable to satisfy all constraints on the partition.

3.
Apple's "gpt" program:

cd2:~ chris@ gpt show -l disk2
gpt show: error: bogus map
gpt show: unable to open device 'disk2': No such file or directory
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Re: How can we make F17 be able to boot on Macs (with or without reFit)

Prior attempt, I mentioned at the very bottom of the email, easy to miss, was a
Macbook Pro 4,1 (2008) model.

---

Attempt 2 with different hardware: Apple Macbook Pro 8,2 (2011).

1.
Starting with a USB stick produced with the following:
http://mirrors.yocum.org/fedora/releases/test/17-Alpha/Fedora/x86_64/iso/Fedora-17-Alpha-x86_64-netinst.iso

dd if=Fedora-17-Alpha-x86_64-netinst.iso of=/dev/rdisk1

2.
Inserting the USB stick while Mac OS 10.6.8 is running (I know, older OS on the
newer hardware, I'm on crack), the Startup Disk panel does not show any
additional options for booting.

3.
Rebooting, holding option key, I get two additional boot option icons both
labeled "EFI Boot". One is an orange USB icon. The other is a blue Fedora icon.

4.
When choosing either option, I get the GRUB Legacy menu, it times down to zero,
I get 7 seconds of USB stick activity, followed by a tone from the laptop I
have only ever heard when doing firmware updates. Interval is approximately 0.7
seconds tone, 0.3 seconds silence, three times. Followed by 3 seconds of
silence. Then repeats. It does not end on its own after 2 minutes, and the
computer does not reboot. And the keyboard is not functional. I have to hold
the power button for 5 minutes to force a shutdown.

Again, no text onscreen to indicate what the problem is - it's still at the
GRUB window during all of this.

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Re: How can we make F17 be able to boot on Macs (with or without reFit)

On Feb 28, 2012, at 12:53 PM, Matthew Garrett wrote:
> 
> Yes. I'm mostly working on the netinst isos, and right now if you take 
> that and dd it onto a USB stick, then insert that and hold down alt on 
> boot, you'll get a Mac install.

1.
http://mirrors.yocum.org/fedora/releases/test/17-Alpha/Fedora/x86_64/iso/Fedora-17-Alpha-x86_64-netinst.iso

dd if=Fedora-17-Alpha-x86_64-netinst.iso of=/dev/rdisk1

2.
I get two additional icons to boot from, both named "EFI Boot". One is an 
orange USB icon, the other is a blue Fedora icon. 

3.
If I choose the blue Fedora icon, I get a GRUB Legacy menu, let it time out. It 
appears to be loading data from the USB stick. After about 45 seconds, the 
computer reboots, and I'm at a Mac OS login window. No text error messages 
indicating why.

4.
I reboot with option key to get the AppleEFI boot menu, choose the orange USB 
"EFI Boot" icon, the same thing happens. 45 seconds, I get a reboot, and I'm at 
a Mac OS login window. No text error messages indicating why.

5.
In Mac OS X 10.7.3, Startup Disk panel, there are no additional boot options 
listed when the USB stick is inserted, yet there are two "ANACONDA" labeled 
volumes mounted.

The hardware is a Macbook Pro 4,1 (2008) model.
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Re: How can we make F17 be able to boot on Macs (with or without reFit)

2012-02-28 Thread Adam Williamson

On Tue, 2012-02-28 at 19:53 +, Matthew Garrett wrote:
> On Tue, Feb 28, 2012 at 08:34:22PM +0100, Andreas Tunek wrote:
> > Den 28 februari 2012 18:22 skrev Matthew Garrett :
> > > Yes, F17's current media should be pretty close to working.
> > >
> > 
> > Is this on native/basic Apple EFI, not reFit?
> 
> Yes. I'm mostly working on the netinst isos, and right now if you take 
> that and dd it onto a USB stick, then insert that and hold down alt on 
> boot, you'll get a Mac install. Unfortunately, alpha ended up getting 
> built with a grub that dies on any Macs that don't have built-in 
> ethernet, so you may have some problems with that. The alpha kernel also 
> has a bug that seems to trigger on Macs that results in incredible 
> slowness. But other than that! Fixed kernel is in the archive now, and 
> I've just commited a fix for the grub bug.

For the record, the incredible slowness bug is
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=795050 and is
documented at
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Common_F17_bugs#slow
(yes, I'm having some fun with the anchor names on the common bugs page,
and yes, my life is that tragic.)
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Re: How can we make F17 be able to boot on Macs (with or without reFit)

2012-02-28 Thread Matthew Garrett

On Tue, Feb 28, 2012 at 08:34:22PM +0100, Andreas Tunek wrote:
> Den 28 februari 2012 18:22 skrev Matthew Garrett :
> > Yes, F17's current media should be pretty close to working.
> >
> 
> Is this on native/basic Apple EFI, not reFit?

Yes. I'm mostly working on the netinst isos, and right now if you take 
that and dd it onto a USB stick, then insert that and hold down alt on 
boot, you'll get a Mac install. Unfortunately, alpha ended up getting 
built with a grub that dies on any Macs that don't have built-in 
ethernet, so you may have some problems with that. The alpha kernel also 
has a bug that seems to trigger on Macs that results in incredible 
slowness. But other than that! Fixed kernel is in the archive now, and 
I've just commited a fix for the grub bug.

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Re: How can we make F17 be able to boot on Macs (with or without reFit)

2012-02-28 Thread Andreas Tunek

Den 28 februari 2012 18:22 skrev Matthew Garrett :
> On Tue, Feb 28, 2012 at 05:57:38PM +0100, Andreas Tunek wrote:
>> Has there been any more tests getting F17 to boot on macs, with or without
>> refit? I would love to test, but if macs are not any target hardware for
>> fedora it would be pretty pointless.
>
> Yes, F17's current media should be pretty close to working.
>

Is this on native/basic Apple EFI, not reFit?

/Andreas

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Re: How can we make F17 be able to boot on Macs (with or without reFit)

2012-02-28 Thread Adam Williamson

On Tue, 2012-02-28 at 12:23 -0700, Chris Murphy wrote:
> 
> On Feb 28, 2012, at 12:15 PM, Adam Williamson wrote:
> > 
> > Chris Murphy is pretty active testing various things in regards to Mac
> > booting, and I've been meaning to get in touch and ask if he's taken a
> > look at F17 Alpha.
> 
> I just downloaded the LiveCD, installed it in VM so I can use the
> latest livecd-tools to make an EFI bootable USB stick for the Mac
> hardware I have here. Will report back.

Thanks! It's much appreciated.
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Re: How can we make F17 be able to boot on Macs (with or without reFit)

On Feb 28, 2012, at 12:15 PM, Adam Williamson wrote:
> 
> Chris Murphy is pretty active testing various things in regards to Mac
> booting, and I've been meaning to get in touch and ask if he's taken a
> look at F17 Alpha.

I just downloaded the LiveCD, installed it in VM so I can use the latest 
livecd-tools to make an EFI bootable USB stick for the Mac hardware I have 
here. Will report back.

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Re: How can we make F17 be able to boot on Macs (with or without reFit)

2012-02-28 Thread Adam Williamson

On Tue, 2012-02-28 at 17:57 +0100, Andreas Tunek wrote:
> Has there been any more tests getting F17 to boot on macs, with or
> without refit? I would love to test, but if macs are not any target
> hardware for fedora it would be pretty pointless.

I didn't really manage to make time to get anywhere with formal testing
as part of the QA processes, unfortunately (I was hoping to have a test
case or two and get someone in QA some Mac hardware), but mjg59 is
working on things on the development end and testing with the hardware
he has available, and there has been some discussion and testing going
on particularly in the mactel-boot review request bug:

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=755093

Chris Murphy is pretty active testing various things in regards to Mac
booting, and I've been meaning to get in touch and ask if he's taken a
look at F17 Alpha.
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Re: How can we make F17 be able to boot on Macs (with or without reFit)

2012-02-28 Thread Michele Baldessari

On Tue, Feb 28, 2012 at 05:22:22PM +, Matthew Garrett wrote:
> On Tue, Feb 28, 2012 at 05:57:38PM +0100, Andreas Tunek wrote:
> > Has there been any more tests getting F17 to boot on macs, with or without
> > refit? I would love to test, but if macs are not any target hardware for
> > fedora it would be pretty pointless.
> 
> Yes, F17's current media should be pretty close to working.

FWIW I installed F16 some time ago and upgraded just yesterday to F17 
(via the rc4 iso) just fine on my MacbookAir4,1. 
F16 didn't have a working graphical anaconda (Intel HW was too new), F17
upgrade went perfectly. So Kudos to everyone ;)

cheers,
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Re: How can we make F17 be able to boot on Macs (with or without reFit)

2012-02-28 Thread Matthew Garrett

On Tue, Feb 28, 2012 at 05:57:38PM +0100, Andreas Tunek wrote:
> Has there been any more tests getting F17 to boot on macs, with or without
> refit? I would love to test, but if macs are not any target hardware for
> fedora it would be pretty pointless.

Yes, F17's current media should be pretty close to working.

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Re: How can we make F17 be able to boot on Macs (with or without reFit)

2012-02-28 Thread Andreas Tunek

Has there been any more tests getting F17 to boot on macs, with or without
refit? I would love to test, but if macs are not any target hardware for
fedora it would be pretty pointless.

/Andreas
On Dec 27, 2011 4:09 AM, "Chris Murphy"  wrote:

>
> On Dec 26, 2011, at 5:55 PM, Todd V Orvieto wrote:
>
> > Chris,
> >  I got really frustrated with triple boot on Max OS X Lion.  At one
> point I had it working on snow leopard pretty well.
>
> A possible problem with Lion is not technically with Lion itself. When
> 10.7 is installed, there is an additional partition created called Recovery
> HD, which contains a minimal system for booting a limited environment.
> Because of this, out of the gate you have at least three partitions: sda1,
> sda2, sda3. You can only add one more partition and have parity with a
> hybrid MBR and I'll bet gptsync does this incorrectly. And there are also
> 2.2TB concerns because of course the Windows partition can't go beyond the
> 2.2TB limit. So how the MBR should look in a triple boot, is unique. I've
> done probably 2-3 dozen installs and figured out one that's ideal for less
> than 2.2TB disks, and one or two that are tolerable, but still gross lies,
> for 2.2TB+ drives.
>
> It also requires giving up on the Windows bootloader and use GRUB2 for
> bootloading both Windows and Fedora.
>
> > My buddy who works for Apple has told me that the installation of refit
> voids the warranty and they have refused to fix computers under warranty
> with refit installed.
>
> Well that's completely bogus. I've heard this myth before, I don't know
> where it started. I think some traveling support crew probably were
> misinformed that rEFIt is an EFI firmware replacement, and if it were true
> that people were flashing Apple's firmware with some 3rd party firmware,
> they'd be able to void warranties. But rEFIt is not firmware, it's a set of
> EFI applications and drivers. So whoever says this is completely full of
> crap and doesn't know what they're talking about.
>
>
> >  I think this is bummer because the Apple hardware is good, it makes no
> sense why Apple cares.
>
> Apple doesn't care to support foreign OS's.
>
>
> Chris Murphy
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Re: How can we make F17 be able to boot on Macs (with or without reFit)

2011-12-26 Thread Chris Murphy

On Dec 26, 2011, at 5:55 PM, Todd V Orvieto wrote:

> Chris,
>  I got really frustrated with triple boot on Max OS X Lion.  At one point I 
> had it working on snow leopard pretty well.

A possible problem with Lion is not technically with Lion itself. When 10.7 is 
installed, there is an additional partition created called Recovery HD, which 
contains a minimal system for booting a limited environment. Because of this, 
out of the gate you have at least three partitions: sda1, sda2, sda3. You can 
only add one more partition and have parity with a hybrid MBR and I'll bet 
gptsync does this incorrectly. And there are also 2.2TB concerns because of 
course the Windows partition can't go beyond the 2.2TB limit. So how the MBR 
should look in a triple boot, is unique. I've done probably 2-3 dozen installs 
and figured out one that's ideal for less than 2.2TB disks, and one or two that 
are tolerable, but still gross lies, for 2.2TB+ drives.

It also requires giving up on the Windows bootloader and use GRUB2 for 
bootloading both Windows and Fedora.

> My buddy who works for Apple has told me that the installation of refit voids 
> the warranty and they have refused to fix computers under warranty with refit 
> installed.

Well that's completely bogus. I've heard this myth before, I don't know where 
it started. I think some traveling support crew probably were misinformed that 
rEFIt is an EFI firmware replacement, and if it were true that people were 
flashing Apple's firmware with some 3rd party firmware, they'd be able to void 
warranties. But rEFIt is not firmware, it's a set of EFI applications and 
drivers. So whoever says this is completely full of crap and doesn't know what 
they're talking about.

>  I think this is bummer because the Apple hardware is good, it makes no sense 
> why Apple cares.

Apple doesn't care to support foreign OS's.

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Re: How can we make F17 be able to boot on Macs (with or without reFit)

2011-12-26 Thread Todd V Orvieto

Chris,
  I got really frustrated with triple boot on Max OS X Lion.  At one point I 
had it working on snow leopard pretty well.  After many frustrating hours spent 
trying to get it setup I sold my MBA on eBay then bought a hp dm1 4050. The HP 
is much faster and now I can boot Linux and windows much easier plus I walked 
away with $300 in cash. My buddy who works for Apple has told me that the 
installation of refit voids the warranty and they have refused to fix computers 
under warranty with refit installed.  I think this is bummer because the Apple 
hardware is good, it makes no sense why Apple cares.  After I read snobs 
biography, where he dose not even mention open source despite the large amount 
of open source software used by Apple I decided I would switch back to a pc 
based laptop.  I do still like the iPad but that is a different story.

Sent from my iPad

On Dec 25, 2011, at 3:22 PM, Chris Murphy  wrote:

> Responding to my own email on various boot behaviors, with some 
> editorialization.
> 
> EFI vs CSM-BIOS:
> 
> EFI boot produces highly variable results between Apple models, while 
> CSM-BIOS boot is very consistent between Apple models.
> 
> Windows 7 will not boot in UEFI mode on Apple hardware. I have searched 
> thoroughly and have found no success stories so far. Even if it has been 
> done, it's outside of what normal people are willing or able to do. Yet 
> CSM-BIOS booting works fine on all of Apple's hardware for the past 4-5 
> years. This makes some sense, because Microsoft says they explicitly support 
> UEFI 2.x and higher only, while Apple's firmware is based on Intel EFI 1.10, 
> not UEFI 2.x.
> 
> CSM-BIOS boot is not ideal. But it's also not ideal to support a flakey EFI 
> boot scenario that may take a lot of effort for low efficacy.
> 
> Also consider Mac users are running into the BIOS-MBR 2.2TB limit on Apple 
> hardware. It stands to reason Apple will need to make some modifications to 
> their EFI implementation to deal with this eventually. This accommodation of 
> Windows (U)EFI requirements may be good for linux, or may be bad for linux. I 
> think investing in Apple EFI unknowns is risky.
> 
> Further, consider CSM-BIOS has the best chance of supporting Fedora when 
> Apple releases new hardware. It may take months or years to support the 
> peculiarities of each model's EFI.
> 
> So if I were voting, I'd suggest a constrained type of support for CSM-BIOS 
> boot, both Fedora only (atypical) and dual boot (typical).
> 
> 
> Triple Boot:
> 
> This is possible, I've done it with several combinations, but it's 
> non-trivial. I question if gptsync is at all appropriate for making sure the 
> resulting hybrid MBR and GPT aren't a disaster (more often than not gptsync 
> produces ill advised hybrid MBRs, more so than they already are).
> 
> The big gotcha with triple boot support, is that the most common situation is 
> the existence of Mac OS and Windows, which means there is a hybrid MBR and 
> GPT. This means a Fedora installation must make sure both an appropriate MBR 
> and GPT are produced not merely so that all three systems to boot as 
> expected, but to ensure neither of the previously working systems become 
> unbootable. Today this is not the case with Fedora 16. Anaconda+parted blow 
> away such a hybrid MBR in favor of GPT only with protective MBR, the result 
> of which is an unbootable Windows (Mac OS remains bootable).
> 
> Even refusing to install Fedora (or a warning about the consequences) would 
> be a much needed improvement here.
> 
> 
> A bit about Apple's philosophy:
> 
> Apple doesn't sell hardware. They don't sell operating systems. They sell an 
> experience that combines both. That's how they see it. The two are 
> inseparable. 
> 
> At best they "tolerate" Windows support, and not just any Windows, only 
> Windows 7 is supported for the better part of a year now. I have zero doubt 
> they'd be baffled by the idea anyone would want to run linux on a Mac, and 
> would not care one single bit if it could not be done with either EFI or 
> CSM-BOOT modes. 
> 
> This is the hallmark company that does not believe users have any right to 
> boot an operating system of their choice on any hardware they produce. People 
> who buy Apple hardware today cannot even run the most recent previous version 
> of Mac OS 10.6.8 (released July 28 2011) - it simply won't boot on their 
> hardware.
> 
> I am leery of excessive amounts of effort, which in effect is a kind of turd 
> polishing, to deal with Apple's non-standard EFI. I don't like being 
> relegated to CSM-BIOS mode booting, but it does work, with well understood 
> limitations.
> 
> 
> Chris Murphy
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Re: How can we make F17 be able to boot on Macs (with or without reFit)

2011-12-25 Thread Chris Murphy

Responding to my own email on various boot behaviors, with some 
editorialization.

EFI vs CSM-BIOS:

EFI boot produces highly variable results between Apple models, while CSM-BIOS 
boot is very consistent between Apple models.

Windows 7 will not boot in UEFI mode on Apple hardware. I have searched 
thoroughly and have found no success stories so far. Even if it has been done, 
it's outside of what normal people are willing or able to do. Yet CSM-BIOS 
booting works fine on all of Apple's hardware for the past 4-5 years. This 
makes some sense, because Microsoft says they explicitly support UEFI 2.x and 
higher only, while Apple's firmware is based on Intel EFI 1.10, not UEFI 2.x.

CSM-BIOS boot is not ideal. But it's also not ideal to support a flakey EFI 
boot scenario that may take a lot of effort for low efficacy.

Also consider Mac users are running into the BIOS-MBR 2.2TB limit on Apple 
hardware. It stands to reason Apple will need to make some modifications to 
their EFI implementation to deal with this eventually. This accommodation of 
Windows (U)EFI requirements may be good for linux, or may be bad for linux. I 
think investing in Apple EFI unknowns is risky.

Further, consider CSM-BIOS has the best chance of supporting Fedora when Apple 
releases new hardware. It may take months or years to support the peculiarities 
of each model's EFI.

So if I were voting, I'd suggest a constrained type of support for CSM-BIOS 
boot, both Fedora only (atypical) and dual boot (typical).


Triple Boot:

This is possible, I've done it with several combinations, but it's non-trivial. 
I question if gptsync is at all appropriate for making sure the resulting 
hybrid MBR and GPT aren't a disaster (more often than not gptsync produces ill 
advised hybrid MBRs, more so than they already are).

The big gotcha with triple boot support, is that the most common situation is 
the existence of Mac OS and Windows, which means there is a hybrid MBR and GPT. 
This means a Fedora installation must make sure both an appropriate MBR and GPT 
are produced not merely so that all three systems to boot as expected, but to 
ensure neither of the previously working systems become unbootable. Today this 
is not the case with Fedora 16. Anaconda+parted blow away such a hybrid MBR in 
favor of GPT only with protective MBR, the result of which is an unbootable 
Windows (Mac OS remains bootable).

Even refusing to install Fedora (or a warning about the consequences) would be 
a much needed improvement here.


A bit about Apple's philosophy:

Apple doesn't sell hardware. They don't sell operating systems. They sell an 
experience that combines both. That's how they see it. The two are inseparable. 

At best they "tolerate" Windows support, and not just any Windows, only Windows 
7 is supported for the better part of a year now. I have zero doubt they'd be 
baffled by the idea anyone would want to run linux on a Mac, and would not care 
one single bit if it could not be done with either EFI or CSM-BOOT modes. 

This is the hallmark company that does not believe users have any right to boot 
an operating system of their choice on any hardware they produce. People who 
buy Apple hardware today cannot even run the most recent previous version of 
Mac OS 10.6.8 (released July 28 2011) - it simply won't boot on their hardware.

I am leery of excessive amounts of effort, which in effect is a kind of turd 
polishing, to deal with Apple's non-standard EFI. I don't like being relegated 
to CSM-BIOS mode booting, but it does work, with well understood limitations.


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How can we make F17 be able to boot on Macs (with or without reFit)

2011-12-24 Thread Chris Murphy

Volume 2

CSM-BIOS boot notes:

Apple hardware tested: 
mbp41 = MacBookPro 4,1 (2008), Nvidia Geforce8600M GT.
mbp82 = MacBookPro 8,2 (2011), Intel HD Graphics 3000 and AMD Radeon HD 6750M.

All notes based on booting with the Apple-EFI option-key startup menu to choose 
how to boot, not rEFIt.

1. After default install using any installation type, and reboot, neither model 
loads GRUB2 (and thus does not boot) by default. Pre or post-install work is 
needed.

2. Both models CAN boot and startup Fedora to a GUI login with pre- or 
post-install work.

a.  'nogpt' kernel parameter for Fedora only installs produces a 
bootable system without post-install work.

b.  In dual-boot (Mac OS + Fedora) anaconda isn't creating a hybrid MBR 
post-install, therefore Apple's EFI startup disk menu doesn't see the F16 
installation. Further, creating the hybrid MBR in advance is useless as parted 
wipes out the hybrid MBR in favor of a protective MBR just prior to 
installation. (See 3 below for additional fallout of this behavior.)

c. Triple boot (Mac OS, Fedora, Windows) is possible, but there are 
more ways this won't work, than will work. And more ways that will work, but 
aren't good partition schemes (invitations for data loss) since there really 
isn't such a thing as a safe hybrid MBR + GPT. I have found one or two that I 
think are about as "safe" as they can get, and it means that the user needs to 
install Mac OS, Windows, Fedora, in that order, but located on the disk in 
order: Mac OS, Fedora, Windows.

3. Anaconda +  parted consistently remove pre-existing hybrid MBRs, replacing 
them with protective MBRs. The hybrid MBR will exist in a case where Windows 
has already been installed (using Apple's Bootcamp application). If removed in 
favor of a protective MBR, Windows is no longer bootable. So not only is Fedora 
not bootable, a previously bootable Windows is no longer bootable. This happens 
with either EFI or BIOS mode installs of Fedora.

So either anaconda needs to proceed no further upon discovery of a hybrid MBR, 
or it needs to become pretty good at sorting out hybrid MBR and GPT schemes 
that are "safe".

4. gptsycnc:  I don't think gptsync has such a sophisticated heuristic for 
creating such hybrid MBRs - I regularly see it produce very linear MBRs while 
suggesting huge percentages of the disk are empty. Any MBR only aware tool 
would see these areas as fair game - what I call an invitation for data loss 
and probably not a good idea.

5. If all requirements are met, Apple's startup disk menu (option-key at 
startup chime) will present a single "Windows" disk icon which if selected will 
load GRUB2 and its menu. That "Windows" label is apparently hard coded in 
Apple's EFI for any foreign OS requiring legacy CSM-BIOS booting.



Additional EFI boot notes:


1. By default EFI//EFI/redhat/grub.efi isn't found by Apple's EFI and install a 
choosable option. If it and the .conf are moved to EFI//EFI/BOOT/BOOTX64.efi 
and .conf, both models have an "EFI Boot" labeled disk icon in the option-key 
startup menu. I'm guessing like the "Windows" equivalent, that "EFI Boot" is 
hardwired.

This is being addressed by this:
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=755093


2. GRUB-EFI (legacy) regularly just hangs are loading the kernel and initramfs, 
on mbp41. I don't have this problem with GRUB2-EFI but I still have other 
problems mentioned in the previous email.



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How can we make F17 be able to boot on Macs (with or without reFit)

2011-12-24 Thread Chris Murphy

First post. I stumbled across this subject while performing an unrelated search.

I have found EFI booting Apple hardware is problematic on the two models I've 
tested. I think these are kernel related problems that would need to be sorted 
out to get a full boot and startup to a GUI login. CSM-BIOS boot works OK on 
these models.

Apple hardware tested: 
mbp41 = MacBookPro 4,1 (2008), Nvidia Geforce8600M GT.
mbp82 = MacBookPro 8,2 (2011), Intel HD Graphics 3000 and AMD Radeon HD 6750M.

1. mbp41 booting is inconsistent. Without additional kernel parameters I 
generally end up with one of three results: successful boot to GUI login 
window; hang at nouveau (dmesg points to VBIOS corruption having occurred very 
early during boot); hang when unpacking initramfs (possibly the same 
intermittent corruption of VBIOS, causes corruption when unpacking initramfs).

With 'nomodeset' I usually am able to boot and complete startup except for x. 
So it's a text only situation. But all other function appears reliable.

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=751147

2. mbp82 booting of kernel and initramfs appears to work 100% of the time. 
However immediately after a GRUB menu item is chosen, GRUB-EFI vanishes and is 
replaced with garbage on the screen. I speculate that in this boot mode, both 
video adapters are active at the same time and are conflicting maybe? In any 
event, I can't see anything. But it is possible to ssh into the computer or 
blindly type commands and they all appear to work.

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=765954

Also, all EFI testing I've done is without rEFIt as I feel it adds another 
layer of unknowns to the process.


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Re: How can we make F17 be able to boot on Macs (with or without reFit)

2011-12-06 Thread Adam Williamson

On Tue, 2011-12-06 at 20:32 +0100, Andreas Tunek wrote:

> >> It seems like the boot procedure has changed quite a bit from F15 to
> >> F16, and not just the GRUB2 change. I am sure these were changed for
> >> the best of reasons, but it is very frustrating to not be able to use
> >> F16 on hardware that could run previous Fedoras very well. Also, there
> >> are a lot of Macs out in the wild, and by excluding them we shut out a
> >> large amount of (possible users).
> >>
> >> So what could be done about this? Would it be enough to have a visible
> >> nopgt option in Anaconda? Should we do special "Boot test days"? Or is
> >> something else needed?
> >
> > So, revisiting this: right now it seems like the aim for F17 is to focus
> > on native EFI boot and install on Mac, not installation using BIOS
> > compatibility mode. We should aim to fix any remaining issues with
> > booting Macs via EFI and test throughout F17 cycle to ensure it works.
> >
> 
> Will it be possible to do dualboot (MacOS + Fedora) and tripleboot
> (MacOS + Windows + Fedora) with this method?

If you do an EFI install of Windows (as I believe at least Win7 is
capable of), I'd say almost certainly 'yes'.

If you want to use the hybrid MBR thingy, which as I understand it
allows OS X (and hopefully Fedora) to see the disk as a GPT disk and
Windows to see it as an MBR disk, and do a BIOS emulation install of
Windows alongside EFI installs of OS X and Fedora...er, the answer I
guess is 'I really don't know'. Someone else may. I don't know the
status of this at present and I don't know if, if it doesn't work right
now, we can do anything to fix it.

(I'm considering buying a cheap second-hand Mac just so I can poke at
this mess personally...)
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Re: How can we make F17 be able to boot on Macs (with or without reFit)

2011-12-06 Thread Andreas Tunek

2011/12/6 Adam Williamson :
> On Fri, 2011-12-02 at 12:08 +0100, Andreas Tunek wrote:
>> As you all might know, it is currently impossible to boot the default
>> install of F16 on Macs. It does not seem to matter if you use boot
>> loaders such as reFit and Bootcamp or remove MacOS completely and try
>> to boot. Apparently, if you somehow (how to use it is not very clear
>> from the "Common F16 bugs" page,
>> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Common_F16_bugs#Incorrect_partition_type_assigned_to_.2Fboot_partition_on_GPT-labelled_disks)
>> use the nogpt kernel parameter you might be able to install F16.
>>
>> There are a couple of bugs open regarding this,
>> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=752548 and
>> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=746895 are two examples.
>>
>> It seems like the boot procedure has changed quite a bit from F15 to
>> F16, and not just the GRUB2 change. I am sure these were changed for
>> the best of reasons, but it is very frustrating to not be able to use
>> F16 on hardware that could run previous Fedoras very well. Also, there
>> are a lot of Macs out in the wild, and by excluding them we shut out a
>> large amount of (possible users).
>>
>> So what could be done about this? Would it be enough to have a visible
>> nopgt option in Anaconda? Should we do special "Boot test days"? Or is
>> something else needed?
>
> So, revisiting this: right now it seems like the aim for F17 is to focus
> on native EFI boot and install on Mac, not installation using BIOS
> compatibility mode. We should aim to fix any remaining issues with
> booting Macs via EFI and test throughout F17 cycle to ensure it works.
>

Will it be possible to do dualboot (MacOS + Fedora) and tripleboot
(MacOS + Windows + Fedora) with this method?

/Andreas

> Adam Williamson
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Re: How can we make F17 be able to boot on Macs (with or without reFit)

2011-12-05 Thread Adam Williamson

On Fri, 2011-12-02 at 12:08 +0100, Andreas Tunek wrote:
> As you all might know, it is currently impossible to boot the default
> install of F16 on Macs. It does not seem to matter if you use boot
> loaders such as reFit and Bootcamp or remove MacOS completely and try
> to boot. Apparently, if you somehow (how to use it is not very clear
> from the "Common F16 bugs" page,
> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Common_F16_bugs#Incorrect_partition_type_assigned_to_.2Fboot_partition_on_GPT-labelled_disks)
> use the nogpt kernel parameter you might be able to install F16.
> 
> There are a couple of bugs open regarding this,
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=752548 and
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=746895 are two examples.
> 
> It seems like the boot procedure has changed quite a bit from F15 to
> F16, and not just the GRUB2 change. I am sure these were changed for
> the best of reasons, but it is very frustrating to not be able to use
> F16 on hardware that could run previous Fedoras very well. Also, there
> are a lot of Macs out in the wild, and by excluding them we shut out a
> large amount of (possible users).
> 
> So what could be done about this? Would it be enough to have a visible
> nopgt option in Anaconda? Should we do special "Boot test days"? Or is
> something else needed?

So, revisiting this: right now it seems like the aim for F17 is to focus
on native EFI boot and install on Mac, not installation using BIOS
compatibility mode. We should aim to fix any remaining issues with
booting Macs via EFI and test throughout F17 cycle to ensure it works.

In the past we have not supported EFI boot on Macs because the Apple
implementation of EFI is rather non-standard, but apparently just trying
to work with Apple's EFI quirks is our best shot at getting reliable
installs on Macs in future.

That's as I understand it from this morning's #anaconda discussion,
anyway.

As far as F16 goes, my current understanding is that it is possible to
install F16 onto some Macs via native EFI boot; however, we do have
problems booting some other Macs natively via EFI with F16. If you try
to do an F16 install in BIOS compatibility mode it may work and may not,
much like previous releases, but if you do it in such a way that Fedora
gets to format an entire disk, it will write a GPT disk label and that
certainly won't work for BIOS compatibility booting. I'm honestly not
sure of all the implications of the 'hybrid GPT' approach Macs can use
for dual-booting OS X (via EFI) and Windows (via BIOS compatibility)
with all this, I think that's where a lot of the complexity we see in
real-world Mac install cases comes in; one of the advantages of making
EFI our 'officially supported' way to install on Macs in future is we
don't have to worry about that, I guess.
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Re: How can we make F17 be able to boot on Macs (with or without reFit)

2011-12-05 Thread Adam Williamson

On Mon, 2011-12-05 at 19:16 +, Matthew Garrett wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 05, 2011 at 10:49:39AM -0800, Adam Williamson wrote:
> > On Sat, 2011-12-03 at 17:54 +, Matthew Garrett wrote:
> > > On Sat, Dec 03, 2011 at 06:19:27PM +0100, Andreas Tunek wrote:
> > > 
> > > > Yes, and the question becomes, can we make this easier in F17?
> > > 
> > > Yes, we can do EFI installs.
> > 
> > We could also blacklist all Apples to use MS-DOS partitions if you do a
> > BIOS install. It's in fact trivially easy - given where the blacklist is
> > in anaconda's code, it naturally applies only to BIOS installs, not EFI
> > installs.
> 
> That would be a bad idea, given that Apples use GPT. You'd end up with 
> an inconsistent disklabel.

Well, it only applies when Fedora would be rewriting the disk label
anyway, and it only does *that* if you're formatting the entire disk. If
you're not formatting the entire disk, no matter what hardware you're
installing to or what any blacklists say or anything like that, anaconda
is not going to write a new disk label. It will just do its best to work
with whatever's already there. It only writes a new disk label (and
follows the logic paths to determine what type that disk label will be)
when you're entirely formatting the disk.

As discussed on IRC, though, if we think doing BIOS installs on Macs is
fundamentally a bad idea, we should just write anaconda to stop /
heavily discourage you from doing that instead.
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Re: How can we make F17 be able to boot on Macs (with or without reFit)

2011-12-05 Thread Matthew Garrett

On Mon, Dec 05, 2011 at 10:49:39AM -0800, Adam Williamson wrote:
> On Sat, 2011-12-03 at 17:54 +, Matthew Garrett wrote:
> > On Sat, Dec 03, 2011 at 06:19:27PM +0100, Andreas Tunek wrote:
> > 
> > > Yes, and the question becomes, can we make this easier in F17?
> > 
> > Yes, we can do EFI installs.
> 
> We could also blacklist all Apples to use MS-DOS partitions if you do a
> BIOS install. It's in fact trivially easy - given where the blacklist is
> in anaconda's code, it naturally applies only to BIOS installs, not EFI
> installs.

That would be a bad idea, given that Apples use GPT. You'd end up with 
an inconsistent disklabel.

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Re: How can we make F17 be able to boot on Macs (with or without reFit)

2011-12-05 Thread Adam Williamson

On Sat, 2011-12-03 at 17:54 +, Matthew Garrett wrote:
> On Sat, Dec 03, 2011 at 06:19:27PM +0100, Andreas Tunek wrote:
> 
> > Yes, and the question becomes, can we make this easier in F17?
> 
> Yes, we can do EFI installs.

We could also blacklist all Apples to use MS-DOS partitions if you do a
BIOS install. It's in fact trivially easy - given where the blacklist is
in anaconda's code, it naturally applies only to BIOS installs, not EFI
installs.

So really all we'd need to do is add a single line to the Lenovo
blacklist, most probably. And if Apples can't boot GPT disks via BIOS
and Apple has no intention of fixing this, as seems to be the case, it
probably makes sense to do so.

Anaconda team, WDYT? Should I open a bug report to have the blacklist
extended?
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Re: How can we make F17 be able to boot on Macs (with or without reFit)

2011-12-03 Thread Matthew Garrett

On Sat, Dec 03, 2011 at 06:19:27PM +0100, Andreas Tunek wrote:

> Yes, and the question becomes, can we make this easier in F17?

Yes, we can do EFI installs.

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Re: How can we make F17 be able to boot on Macs (with or without reFit)

2011-12-03 Thread Andreas Tunek

2011/12/2 Adam Williamson :
> On Fri, 2011-12-02 at 21:39 +, Matthew Garrett wrote:
>> On Fri, Dec 02, 2011 at 12:21:49PM -0800, Adam Williamson wrote:
>> > We explicitly don't support native EFI installs on Macs, at the request
>> > of the anaconda team, as Apple's EFI implementation is hideous. Having
>> > said that, I'm pretty sure at least a few people reported success on
>> > Macs with the changes to grub2 between Beta and Final, but I'm having
>> > trouble digging up the references.
>> >
>> > Macs are always a puzzle and a mess, don't get me wrong. But I didn't
>> > think the situation was as black and white as 'you cannot install F16 on
>> > a Mac'.
>>
>> Macs won't do legacy boots off gpt partitions.
>
> Okay, so if you have one of the Macs we can't do EFI boot on, the
> situation is indeed 'you must install via BIOS emulation and use 'nogpt'
> parameter', it seems.
> --

Yes, and the question becomes, can we make this easier in F17?

/Andreas

> Adam Williamson
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Re: How can we make F17 be able to boot on Macs (with or without reFit)

On Fri, 2011-12-02 at 21:39 +, Matthew Garrett wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 02, 2011 at 12:21:49PM -0800, Adam Williamson wrote:
> > We explicitly don't support native EFI installs on Macs, at the request
> > of the anaconda team, as Apple's EFI implementation is hideous. Having
> > said that, I'm pretty sure at least a few people reported success on
> > Macs with the changes to grub2 between Beta and Final, but I'm having
> > trouble digging up the references.
> >
> > Macs are always a puzzle and a mess, don't get me wrong. But I didn't
> > think the situation was as black and white as 'you cannot install F16 on
> > a Mac'.
> 
> Macs won't do legacy boots off gpt partitions.

Okay, so if you have one of the Macs we can't do EFI boot on, the
situation is indeed 'you must install via BIOS emulation and use 'nogpt'
parameter', it seems.
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Re: How can we make F17 be able to boot on Macs (with or without reFit)

2011-12-02 Thread Matthew Garrett

On Fri, Dec 02, 2011 at 12:21:49PM -0800, Adam Williamson wrote:
> We explicitly don't support native EFI installs on Macs, at the request
> of the anaconda team, as Apple's EFI implementation is hideous. Having
> said that, I'm pretty sure at least a few people reported success on
> Macs with the changes to grub2 between Beta and Final, but I'm having
> trouble digging up the references.
>
> Macs are always a puzzle and a mess, don't get me wrong. But I didn't
> think the situation was as black and white as 'you cannot install F16 on
> a Mac'.

Macs won't do legacy boots off gpt partitions.

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Re: How can we make F17 be able to boot on Macs (with or without reFit)

On Fri, 2011-12-02 at 11:54 -0800, John Reiser wrote:
> On 12/02/2011 10:20 AM, Adam Williamson wrote:
> > On Fri, 2011-12-02 at 12:08 +0100, Andreas Tunek wrote:
> >> As you all might know, it is currently impossible to boot the default
> >> install of F16 on Macs.
> 
> > I'm not entirely sure that's correct. We had several reports of
> > successful EFI installs of F16 in the relevant bug reports at RC stage.
> > 
> > What are you basing this apparently authoritative declaration on?
> 
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=751147
> The Fedora 16 install DVD x86_64 won't even boot on my MacBookPro.

We explicitly don't support native EFI installs on Macs, at the request
of the anaconda team, as Apple's EFI implementation is hideous. Having
said that, I'm pretty sure at least a few people reported success on
Macs with the changes to grub2 between Beta and Final, but I'm having
trouble digging up the references.

Macs are always a puzzle and a mess, don't get me wrong. But I didn't
think the situation was as black and white as 'you cannot install F16 on
a Mac'.
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Re: How can we make F17 be able to boot on Macs (with or without reFit)

On Fri, 2011-12-02 at 11:54 -0800, John Reiser wrote:
> On 12/02/2011 10:20 AM, Adam Williamson wrote:
> > On Fri, 2011-12-02 at 12:08 +0100, Andreas Tunek wrote:
> >> As you all might know, it is currently impossible to boot the default
> >> install of F16 on Macs.
> 
> > I'm not entirely sure that's correct. We had several reports of
> > successful EFI installs of F16 in the relevant bug reports at RC stage.
> > 
> > What are you basing this apparently authoritative declaration on?
> 
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=751147
> The Fedora 16 install DVD x86_64 won't even boot on my MacBookPro.

efibootmgr is entirely the wrong component for that bug, FWIW.
reassigning.
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Re: How can we make F17 be able to boot on Macs (with or without reFit)

2011-12-02 Thread John Reiser

On 12/02/2011 10:20 AM, Adam Williamson wrote:
> On Fri, 2011-12-02 at 12:08 +0100, Andreas Tunek wrote:
>> As you all might know, it is currently impossible to boot the default
>> install of F16 on Macs.

> I'm not entirely sure that's correct. We had several reports of
> successful EFI installs of F16 in the relevant bug reports at RC stage.
> 
> What are you basing this apparently authoritative declaration on?

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=751147
The Fedora 16 install DVD x86_64 won't even boot on my MacBookPro.

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Re: How can we make F17 be able to boot on Macs (with or without reFit)

On Fri, 2011-12-02 at 19:48 +0100, Andreas Tunek wrote:
> 2011/12/2 Adam Williamson :
> > On Fri, 2011-12-02 at 12:08 +0100, Andreas Tunek wrote:
> >> As you all might know, it is currently impossible to boot the default
> >> install of F16 on Macs.
> >
> > I'm not entirely sure that's correct. We had several reports of
> > successful EFI installs of F16 in the relevant bug reports at RC stage.
> >
> > What are you basing this apparently authoritative declaration on?
> > --
> 
> As far as I know, you can only install if you use the nopgt kernel
> parameter or change the partitions after the install. I could of
> course be wrong, but nothing I found contradicted these facts.
> 
> On my own iMac, when I tried to do preupgrade from the working F15 to
> F16 the system would not boot into F16. I the tried to install the
> live CD and I could not get that to boot either. I tried both using
> reFit and using the whole disk.
> 
> Has anyone managed to install F16 on a Mac without using any extra
> options such as nopgt or changing partion flags after install?

Probably the guy who has the best handle on it is Chris Murphy, though I
don't know if he follows this list. He did quite a lot of testing of F16
on Macs and seems to have the best understanding of how exactly Apple's
Very Very Special firmware works. See
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=752548#c4 .
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Re: How can we make F17 be able to boot on Macs (with or without reFit)

2011-12-02 Thread Andreas Tunek

2011/12/2 Adam Williamson :
> On Fri, 2011-12-02 at 12:08 +0100, Andreas Tunek wrote:
>> As you all might know, it is currently impossible to boot the default
>> install of F16 on Macs.
>
> I'm not entirely sure that's correct. We had several reports of
> successful EFI installs of F16 in the relevant bug reports at RC stage.
>
> What are you basing this apparently authoritative declaration on?
> --

As far as I know, you can only install if you use the nopgt kernel
parameter or change the partitions after the install. I could of
course be wrong, but nothing I found contradicted these facts.

On my own iMac, when I tried to do preupgrade from the working F15 to
F16 the system would not boot into F16. I the tried to install the
live CD and I could not get that to boot either. I tried both using
reFit and using the whole disk.

Has anyone managed to install F16 on a Mac without using any extra
options such as nopgt or changing partion flags after install?

/Andreas

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Re: How can we make F17 be able to boot on Macs (with or without reFit)