Is Rawhide supposed to be useful?
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=698237 and it's been this way for a while: http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.redhat.fedora.devel/147699 which just says Rawhide's X is going to be like that for a while. We have ABI version checks in place, but they only operate off the numbers actually exported from the server, and those don't change until ABI freeze for the server release. - ajax which is not very helpful -- and that was several weeks ago. The bug above keeps accumlating duplicates. Can some resources be put into making sure this is resolved and protected against via RPM dependencies? -- Matthew Miller Senior Systems Architect -- Instructional & Research Computing Services Harvard School of Engineering & Applied Sciences -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Is Rawhide supposed to be useful?
On 09/05/11 13:49, Matthew Miller wrote: To answer the subject, for testing it is usefull. For deploying satellites, not so much. I have two rawhide vms' running But I find with rawhide. Keep rpm copies local with yum*local. for rawhide I keep 12 copes of all installed rpms. yum downgrade xorg*server* I have x all the time as a result. -- Regards, Frank Murphy UTF_8 Encoded Friend of Fedora -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Is Rawhide supposed to be useful?
On Mon, May 09, 2011 at 08:49:28AM -0400, Matthew Miller wrote: > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=698237 > > and it's been this way for a while: > > http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.redhat.fedora.devel/147699 > > which just says > > Rawhide's X is going to be like that for a while. We have ABI version > checks in place, but they only operate off the numbers actually exported > from the server, and those don't change until ABI freeze for the server > release. > > - ajax > > which is not very helpful -- and that was several weeks ago. The bug above > keeps accumlating duplicates. > > Can some resources be put into making sure this is resolved and protected > against via RPM dependencies? This is my fault, sorry. I updated the server but missed out on rebuilding the drivers. And with one thing leading to another, Easter came, I forgot about it and the above bug didn't show up on my radar until ajax pinged me this morning. I'm about to rebuild and update the drivers, but my upstream link is currently using pigeons, so it will take me a while. The resources have been put in, there are ABI checks in the RPMs but as ajax said, they don't work until the ABI is bumped upstream. Cheers, Peter -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Is Rawhide supposed to be useful?
On Tue, 2011-05-10 at 11:18 +1000, Peter Hutterer wrote: > I'm about to rebuild and update the drivers, but my upstream link is > currently using pigeons, so it will take me a while. I tried that, but I couldn't stuff the squawking things into the HDMI port... -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Is Rawhide supposed to be useful?
On Tue, May 10, 2011 at 11:18:54AM +1000, Peter Hutterer wrote: > This is my fault, sorry. I updated the server but missed out on rebuilding > the drivers. And with one thing leading to another, Easter came, I forgot > about it and the above bug didn't show up on my radar until ajax pinged me > this morning. Thank you very much. -- Matthew Miller Senior Systems Architect -- Instructional & Research Computing Services Harvard School of Engineering & Applied Sciences -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Is Rawhide supposed to be useful?
On 5/9/11 9:18 PM, Peter Hutterer wrote: > The resources have been put in, there are ABI checks in the RPMs but as ajax > said, they don't work until the ABI is bumped upstream. I'm thinking about making the xserver package export ABI majors of md5sums of, well, something, whenever the build is of a git snap instead of a released build. Possibly md5sums of the verbose output of pahole or something. It'd give some funny-looking requires strings, but it's no more distasteful than what ocaml puts us through. - ajax -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Is Rawhide supposed to be useful?
On Tue, 10 May 2011 11:18:54 +1000 Peter Hutterer wrote: > This is my fault, sorry. I updated the server but missed out on rebuilding > the drivers. And with one thing leading to another, Easter came, I forgot > about it and the above bug didn't show up on my radar until ajax pinged me > this morning. So I must confess that this makes me curious. Things breaking in Rawhide are not a surprise; indeed, if it doesn't occasionally bite the hand that's feeding it, somebody probably isn't trying hard enough. But if it can remain this fundamentally broken for weeks because the relevant developer forgot to fix it, it's hard not to conclude that nobody is really running it. Rawhide used to be something we could run to see where the distribution is going and, perhaps, help a little bit with the quality assurance. More recently, I've been told a few times that I should *not* be running Rawhide and that the F15 branch is where the updates and fixes go. It leaves me wondering what Rawhide is for anymore; what value does it bring to Fedora if nobody tries to actually run it for real work? Could it be that Fedora lacks the resources to maintain both Rawhide and the next-release branch? In retrospect, was No Frozen Rawhide as good an idea as it seemed? Thanks, jon -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Is Rawhide supposed to be useful?
On 5/10/11 11:34 AM, Jonathan Corbet wrote: > Things breaking in Rawhide are not a surprise; indeed, if it doesn't > occasionally bite the hand that's feeding it, somebody probably isn't > trying hard enough. But if it can remain this fundamentally broken for > weeks because the relevant developer forgot to fix it, it's hard not to > conclude that nobody is really running it. In the week before F15 change freeze, are you really surprised that nobody's running the F16 dumping ground? - ajax -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Is Rawhide supposed to be useful?
On Tue, May 10, 2011 at 09:04, Adam Jackson wrote: > On 5/10/11 11:34 AM, Jonathan Corbet wrote: > > > Things breaking in Rawhide are not a surprise; indeed, if it doesn't > > occasionally bite the hand that's feeding it, somebody probably isn't > > trying hard enough. But if it can remain this fundamentally broken for > > weeks because the relevant developer forgot to fix it, it's hard not to > > conclude that nobody is really running it. > > In the week before F15 change freeze, are you really surprised that > nobody's running the F16 dumping ground? > > > I am running the F16 dumping ground. I do daily updates to rawhide and report bugs as I see them. In other words, I'm always running the "rolling" release. Breakage for those of us who live on this edge is something we're familiar with. It would just be helpful to have the occasional heads-up for known breakages, rather than having to discover them in unpleasant ways. darrell -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Is Rawhide supposed to be useful?
On Tue, 10 May 2011 09:34:34 -0600 Jonathan Corbet wrote: ...snip... > Rawhide used to be something we could run to see where the > distribution is going and, perhaps, help a little bit with the > quality assurance. More recently, I've been told a few times that I > should *not* be running Rawhide and that the F15 branch is where the > updates and fixes go. It leaves me wondering what Rawhide is for > anymore; what value does it bring to Fedora if nobody tries to > actually run it for real work? Good question. I do still run a rawhide test box here... but I admit I don't look at it as much when we are ramping up for a release. > Could it be that Fedora lacks the resources to maintain both Rawhide > and the next-release branch? In retrospect, was No Frozen Rawhide as > good an idea as it seemed? We could indeed revisit it. I think it's still useful. I always build new stuff for rawhide first before pushing to f15. I'd like to hope most other maintainers do as well, and perhaps autoQA can nag and get those who don't to do so. I think in this case it was just a matter or not getting the proper folks attention to fix the issue. ;( kevin signature.asc Description: PGP signature -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Is Rawhide supposed to be useful?
On Tue, 10 May 2011 12:04:22 -0400 Adam Jackson wrote: > > Things breaking in Rawhide are not a surprise; indeed, if it doesn't > > occasionally bite the hand that's feeding it, somebody probably isn't > > trying hard enough. But if it can remain this fundamentally broken for > > weeks because the relevant developer forgot to fix it, it's hard not to > > conclude that nobody is really running it. > > In the week before F15 change freeze, are you really surprised that > nobody's running the F16 dumping ground? I'm not talking about this week. The X11 problem was reported three weeks ago, and the "don't run Rawhide" advice given to me came rather before that. Rawhide has been an unusually painful place to be for some time now, and a lot of people, I believe, have opted out of it. I'm getting close to doing the same, despite having run Rawhide on my desktop for a *long* time. Your response really just reinforces my concern. What value does the distribution get from a "dumping ground"? Thanks, jon -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Is Rawhide supposed to be useful?
On Tue, May 10, 2011 at 7:34 AM, Jonathan Corbet wrote: > Could it be that Fedora lacks the resources to maintain both Rawhide and > the next-release branch? In retrospect, was No Frozen Rawhide as good an > idea as it seemed? I need to redo my tongue-n-cheek seasons of rawhide in the new No Frozen Rawhide era to give you a clearer picture as to what to expect from Rawhide. Rawhide still has seasons of activity, and while the current rawhide winter of your discontent might not be _frozen_ its not necessarily as active as other times. Nor do I think anyone expected it to be equally active at all times. The point of No Frozen Rawhide was two fold. To make it easier for pre-release testers to transition into the gold release without getting pinched by the confusion in the transition of rawhide to to N+1 near release day. And secondly, it makes it _possible_ to introduce breakage into rawhide earlier than release day so there isn't a flood of pent up changes which get introduced in a pulse as soon as rawhide unfreezes. And in that respect the policy is working as expected. Pre-release day breakage achievement unlocked! There's nothing in the policy which speaks to curb breakage which lingers for more than a few days once introduced. Whether that breakage is introduced pre-release or post-release. As before maintainership is a best effort affair. There's been no best effort to define a minimum best effort. Yes its dumb that a _simple_ maintainer mistake sat there for weeks. This sort of stuff happens. It's happened to my packages, where I thought I applied some simple brown bag packaging fix on a branch(a release branch even!) and I plum forgot to do it till someone poked me in the eye. It's a _human_ mistake. Until we have skynet doing the package maintainence for us, we have to have a maintainership system which can recover when mistakes happen to mitigate the effect no matter if its rawhide or not. -jef -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Is Rawhide supposed to be useful?
On 5/10/11 12:23 PM, Jonathan Corbet wrote: > I'm not talking about this week. The X11 problem was reported three weeks > ago, and the "don't run Rawhide" advice given to me came rather before > that. Rawhide has been an unusually painful place to be for some time > now, and a lot of people, I believe, have opted out of it. Yum has pattern excludes, man. You have the tools. > I'm getting close to doing the same, despite having run Rawhide on my > desktop for a *long* time. > > Your response really just reinforces my concern. What value does the > distribution get from a "dumping ground"? Sigh. Catching this instance of the problem is not entirely trivial. I have a plan, and I'll even take patches for it, but it's simply not a priority. Releases matter more. I suspect they matter more for a lot of people, in fact. Which is an entire set of problems that simply did not exist before no-frozen-rawhide was a thing. Before that, the problem we had was five hundred builds all hitting rawhide at once and literally nothing working for weeks _after_ the release was out. Here, instead, we've slipped that broken stage to be parallel with tuning the release. That seems like a win to me; once F15 is out, some F16hide problems have a chance of having been fixed, and the rest will get done sooner (in the sense of "by an earlier date", not "at a faster rate"), which gives more useful time before F16 to do actual work. --- What _I'm_ dismayed about is that literally zero people cared about this problem enough to have the courage to look at fixing it. Not so much that it leaves rawhide unusable, more that we've basically lost any notion of collective ownership, and/or that nobody is fearless enough to go read things they don't already know. I had to write a patch for frickin' LLVM for F15, of all things, code I'd never read before in a language I don't really know in a domain where I have zero expertise. That was just the problem that was in my way. X being broken in rawhide was in who knows how many peoples' ways, and even though it's provenpackager+ and even though all it would have taken was a mass driver rebuild, nobody even tried. Where _are_ you people? Why do I bother to open the ACLs on my packages if nobody's going to take advantage of it? --- But to your question of "what value do we get from rawhide existing", well, builds have to go somewhere. We may as well keep the compose tools running on them all the time, so when things do break we see them. All we had here was a case where one tool didn't catch a breakage because the other bit of the tools weren't complete enough yet. I don't think that's sufficient cause to question rawhide's existence. I suspect, instead, that most other consumability problems with rawhide are basically the same pattern: nobody tries to fix anything outside their scope. If one is not concerned with the whole being greater than the sum of its parts, why exactly would one work on a distribution? - ajax -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Is Rawhide supposed to be useful?
On Tue, May 10, 2011 at 01:07:22PM -0400, Adam Jackson wrote: > X being broken in rawhide was in who knows how many peoples' ways, and > even though it's provenpackager+ and even though all it would have taken > was a mass driver rebuild, nobody even tried. Where _are_ you people? > Why do I bother to open the ACLs on my packages if nobody's going to > take advantage of it? > Its a hard problem in human psychology (see diffusion of responsibility/the bystander effect). It'd be nice if there were some place we could list all of these tasks and allow people to grab them, regardless of what they maintain (sounds a bit like bugzilla really) to at least deter the sense of "what if I do all this work and someone else fixes it before I commit?" --CJD -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Is Rawhide supposed to be useful?
On 5/10/11 1:41 PM, Casey Dahlin wrote: > On Tue, May 10, 2011 at 01:07:22PM -0400, Adam Jackson wrote: >> X being broken in rawhide was in who knows how many peoples' ways, and >> even though it's provenpackager+ and even though all it would have taken >> was a mass driver rebuild, nobody even tried. Where _are_ you people? >> Why do I bother to open the ACLs on my packages if nobody's going to >> take advantage of it? > > Its a hard problem in human psychology (see diffusion of > responsibility/the bystander effect). It'd be nice if there were some > place we could list all of these tasks and allow people to grab them, > regardless of what they maintain (sounds a bit like bugzilla really) to > at least deter the sense of "what if I do all this work and someone else > fixes it before I commit?" I can see that. My approach tends to be along the lines of: - check bugzilla for anything that looks relevant - take a quick read of the spec or source to see if I can grok it - check with the maintainer, if around and it's not quite trivial - jfdi And if I get beat to the punch, oh well, at least I learned something new about how something else is put together, and therefore I'll be faster next time. - ajax -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Is Rawhide supposed to be useful?
On Tue, May 10, 2011 at 11:22:37AM -0400, Adam Jackson wrote: > > The resources have been put in, there are ABI checks in the RPMs but as ajax > > said, they don't work until the ABI is bumped upstream. > I'm thinking about making the xserver package export ABI majors of > md5sums of, well, something, whenever the build is of a git snap instead > of a released build. Possibly md5sums of the verbose output of pahole > or something. It'd give some funny-looking requires strings, but it's > no more distasteful than what ocaml puts us through. That would be awesome. Thank you very much. Because, y'know, having a useful rawhide _is_ good. :) -- Matthew Miller Senior Systems Architect -- Instructional & Research Computing Services Harvard School of Engineering & Applied Sciences -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Is Rawhide supposed to be useful?
On Tue, 10 May 2011 13:07:22 -0400 Adam Jackson wrote: > All we had here was a case where one tool didn't catch a breakage because > the other bit of the tools weren't complete enough yet. I don't think > that's sufficient cause to question rawhide's existence. The breakage is fine, one expects that. A fundamental breakage that the relevant developers don't even notice for weeks is another question; as I said, that suggests that people running Rawhide are few and far between. I wasn't thinking about just this case, though. Here's some advice I got in March: > If you are running rawhide ( what now will become F16 ) expect things to > be broken for some time since maintainers wont necessary build/update > components for F16 since all the focus is on branched at the moment ( F15 ). [IOW, Rawhide doesn't just break - it also isn't getting fixed.] > [...] > > If you need a usable system I recommend that you stay away from the > rawhide train until it hits alpha which is sometime late August if > memory serves me correct. (http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.linux.redhat.fedora.testers/1) Even then it occurred to me that, if people are being told to stay away for six months at a time, all is not as well as it should be. Even just waiting from the time of that message until the end of the F15 distraction is two months of down time... Oh well, I was just wondering. I'll stop bugging everybody now. Thanks, jon -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Is Rawhide supposed to be useful?
On Tue, May 10, 2011 at 02:54:44PM -0600, Jonathan Corbet wrote: > The breakage is fine, one expects that. A fundamental breakage that the > relevant developers don't even notice for weeks is another question; as I > said, that suggests that people running Rawhide are few and far between. I'm concerned because there was a bugzilla entry sitting there piling up tons of duplicates. A "normal user" -- even of Rawhide -- might expect that to be enough to make sure the issue gets on the relevant developers' radar. Starting threads with melodramatic attention-getting subject lines should not be the way to get things done. :) -- Matthew Miller Senior Systems Architect -- Instructional & Research Computing Services Harvard School of Engineering & Applied Sciences -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Is Rawhide supposed to be useful?
On 5/10/11 4:54 PM, Jonathan Corbet wrote: > On Tue, 10 May 2011 13:07:22 -0400 > Adam Jackson wrote: >> If you need a usable system I recommend that you stay away from the >> rawhide train until it hits alpha which is sometime late August if >> memory serves me correct. > > (http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.linux.redhat.fedora.testers/1) > > Even then it occurred to me that, if people are being told to stay away for > six months at a time, all is not as well as it should be. Even just > waiting from the time of that message until the end of the F15 distraction > is two months of down time... August was probably an overstatement, sure. - ajax -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Is Rawhide supposed to be useful?
On 05/10/2011 11:34 AM, Jonathan Corbet wrote: > Rawhide used to be something we could run to see where the distribution is > going and, perhaps, help a little bit with the quality assurance. More > recently, I've been told a few times that I should *not* be running > Rawhide and that the F15 branch is where the updates and fixes go. It > leaves me wondering what Rawhide is for anymore; what value does it bring > to Fedora if nobody tries to actually run it for real work? It's fair to say that rawhide doesn't serve the same purpose any more - since we're branching so much earlier, the thing that used to be rawhide is essentially the branch. But the newer form of rawhide does have a feature - it allows those of us working on multiple features that aren't ready yet to stage them farther in advance, and to work on them more asynchronously. For example, we've been working on grub2 support for F16 in rawhide recently. More generally, from anaconda's perspective we're working in rawhide much of the time, with the branched release being more stable than it used to be. This simplifies our development cycle significantly. > Could it be that Fedora lacks the resources to maintain both Rawhide and > the next-release branch? It could be, but I'm not sure that'd be important - I don't think the need for up-to-the-minute maintenance exists in current rawhide as much as it does in the branched repo. I think it's that since we don't *need* pre-branch rawhide in the same way we used to need rawhide, we just don't use it the same way. > In retrospect, was No Frozen Rawhide as good an idea as it seemed? Right now it looks like a great success from where I'm sitting. -- Peter -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Is Rawhide supposed to be useful?
On 05/10/2011 09:08 PM, Adam Jackson wrote: > On 5/10/11 4:54 PM, Jonathan Corbet wrote: >> On Tue, 10 May 2011 13:07:22 -0400 >> Adam Jackson wrote: >>> If you need a usable system I recommend that you stay away from the >>> rawhide train until it hits alpha which is sometime late August if >>> memory serves me correct. >> (http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.linux.redhat.fedora.testers/1) >> >> Even then it occurred to me that, if people are being told to stay away for >> six months at a time, all is not as well as it should be. Even just >> waiting from the time of that message until the end of the F15 distraction >> is two months of down time... > August was probably an overstatement, sure. Depends on what people definition of usable is. As history/experience has shown when we hit alpha the most invasive changes usually subside and you have a semi workable desktop for the average reporter to ride on. Granted that the "No Frozen Rawhide" proposal has gotten us to have the alpha status more or less in the shape of what beta used to be and from my point of view the no frozen rawhide proposal is turning out to be a win win for maintainers and the QA community and I personally prefer that we continue walking on the none frozen path. We the more experienced ones jump on the rawhide train as soon as the release we have been working on gets out the door and we ( QA ) want to focus and urge reporters to stay on branched so we can get as much test covering as possible on what we are about to release. JBG -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Is Rawhide supposed to be useful?
Peter Jones writes: > It's fair to say that rawhide doesn't serve the same purpose any more - since > we're branching so much earlier, the thing that used to be rawhide is > essentially the branch. But the newer form of rawhide does have a feature - > it allows those of us working on multiple features that aren't ready yet to > stage them farther in advance, and to work on them more asynchronously. That's the theory at least. The problem that I see with this "it's okay to leave rawhide very broken for long stretches of time" mentality is that leaving rawhide broken imperils the ability of *other* developers to work on *their* massively unstable features. Not every developer can be an expert on every part of the system, or spare the time to find out how to work around breakage in parts of the system they don't know. So if rawhide is broken, they can't use it as a test environment, and what are they going to do then? Leaving rawhide busted is a discourtesy to your fellow developers. Don't do it. If you've got code that doesn't work yet, play with it in your own repo, but don't push it out where the rest of us have to deal with it. Maybe this suggests that we need to work a little harder on supporting and/or encouraging use of "rawhide branches", so that multiple developers can work on a shared piece of instability without affecting all of Fedora-land. regards, tom lane -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Is Rawhide supposed to be useful?
On Tue, 10 May 2011 17:00:30 -0400 Matthew Miller wrote: > On Tue, May 10, 2011 at 02:54:44PM -0600, Jonathan Corbet wrote: > > The breakage is fine, one expects that. A fundamental breakage > > that the relevant developers don't even notice for weeks is another > > question; as I said, that suggests that people running Rawhide are > > few and far between. > > I'm concerned because there was a bugzilla entry sitting there piling > up tons of duplicates. A "normal user" -- even of Rawhide -- might > expect that to be enough to make sure the issue gets on the relevant > developers' radar. Yeah, related to that: https://fedorahosted.org/fedora-engineering-services/ticket/24 If we had a way to figure out how to denote these bugs, I think it would be useful to send out a report on them once a week or so. That way when maintainers are busy/unable to look at things, we can see what the 'hot bugs' are and others can try and lend a hand. Unfortunately, it's not easy to get that kind of thing out of bugzilla. ;( > Starting threads with melodramatic attention-getting subject lines > should not be the way to get things done. :) Agreed. kevin signature.asc Description: PGP signature -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Is Rawhide supposed to be useful?
On Tue, 10 May 2011 10:23:08 -0600, JC wrote: > > In the week before F15 change freeze, are you really surprised that > > nobody's running the F16 dumping ground? > > I'm not talking about this week. The X11 problem was reported three weeks > ago, and the "don't run Rawhide" advice given to me came rather before > that. Rawhide has been an unusually painful place to be for some time > now, and a lot of people, I believe, have opted out of it. Do you have any numbers? I don't believe that "a lot of people" run Rawhide after it has been branched for the next release of Fedora. I don't have any numbers either, but based on bug reports and support requests, more people take a first look at F14 these weeks (in hope that many bugs have been ironed out), and early adopters give the F15 Alpha or Beta a try (in hope that they will arrive a F15 final without having to reinstall that one). The majority of people will start testing F15 when it released. The number of bug reports will increase then. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Is Rawhide supposed to be useful?
On Tue, 10 May 2011 19:30:34 -0400, TL wrote: > Leaving rawhide busted is a discourtesy to your fellow developers. > Don't do it. If you've got code that doesn't work yet, play with it > in your own repo, but don't push it out where the rest of us have to > deal with it. That conclusion is based on the assumption that somebody pushes completely broken stuff into Rawhide _knowingly_. Is that the case? Or does Rawhide just suffer from ordinary bugs as in Test Updates, which would be withdrawn due to negative feedback? -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Is Rawhide supposed to be useful?
On 11/05/11 15:17, Michael Schwendt wrote: > Do you have any numbers? I don't believe that "a lot of people" run > Rawhide after it has been branched for the next release of Fedora. I just run Rawhide as virtual installs these days, 2 for pure rawhide. 2 for branched. Not enough boxes to spare these days to give real hw. So thats 2 people at least ;) -- Regards, Frank Murphy UTF_8 Encoded Friend of Fedora -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Is Rawhide supposed to be useful?
Le Mar 10 mai 2011 18:04, Adam Jackson a écrit : > > On 5/10/11 11:34 AM, Jonathan Corbet wrote: > >> Things breaking in Rawhide are not a surprise; indeed, if it doesn't >> occasionally bite the hand that's feeding it, somebody probably isn't >> trying hard enough. But if it can remain this fundamentally broken for >> weeks because the relevant developer forgot to fix it, it's hard not to >> conclude that nobody is really running it. > > In the week before F15 change freeze, are you really surprised that > nobody's running the F16 dumping ground? Not nobody. Just very patient people -- Nicolas Mailhot -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Is Rawhide supposed to be useful?
On Wed, May 11, 2011 at 04:23:00PM +0200, Michael Schwendt wrote: > That conclusion is based on the assumption that somebody pushes completely > broken stuff into Rawhide _knowingly_. Or that they push unproven code into rawhide carelessly. --CJD -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Is Rawhide supposed to be useful?
Casey Dahlin writes: > On Wed, May 11, 2011 at 04:23:00PM +0200, Michael Schwendt wrote: >> That conclusion is based on the assumption that somebody pushes completely >> broken stuff into Rawhide _knowingly_. > Or that they push unproven code into rawhide carelessly. Or that they push code and then ignore bug reports for weeks, which is not an assumption but the actual facts on the ground in the case that started this thread. regards, tom lane -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Is Rawhide supposed to be useful?
On Tue, May 10, 2011 at 14:54:44 -0600, Jonathan Corbet wrote: > On Tue, 10 May 2011 13:07:22 -0400 > > Even then it occurred to me that, if people are being told to stay away for > six months at a time, all is not as well as it should be. Even just > waiting from the time of that message until the end of the F15 distraction > is two months of down time... > > Oh well, I was just wondering. I'll stop bugging everybody now. I don't tend to run rawhide after the branch until the final is released, because there are enough things that break in the branched version that I want to be running stuff there as getting brokenness there fixed before the release is more important (to me) than future problems in rawhide. Shortly after the release I'll start moving systems over to rawhide and then switch the new branched release when the branch occurs. I like to have all of my machines switched over by the alpha release. Though I need to make sure my work machine will work well enough for me to work before I switch it over. At times I have kernel or graphics driver problems that have kept me from running up to date stuff on all of my machines. I seem to do odd stuff and rawhide often breaks my stuff in a way that gives a lot of incentive to file bug reports and help get things fixed. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
