Re: Meeting minutes FESCo (2012-03-26)
On Tue, Apr 03, 2012 at 11:23:04AM -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: On Fri, 2012-03-30 at 14:29 +0200, David Tardon wrote: Or do we really need a policy/process/guideline for _everything_? I tend to find it's a good idea. It has lots of benefits and virtually no drawbacks, except that someone has to find time to write it. And then everyone else has to read it and _remember_ it, which is IMHO the main drawback. And because some/many will not, we are no better off than before, except there is one policy more. Note: I am not against policies in general, just against policies regarding trivial matters. I _would_ check packaging guidelines before submitting a new package for review. I _would not_ look at the current e-mail sending policy (if there was one) before sending an e-mail to fedora-devel. Actually, there is a good chance I would not even remember there _was_ any e-mail sending policy... D. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Meeting minutes FESCo (2012-03-26)
On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 11:46 PM, Adam Williamson awill...@redhat.com wrote: Could I suggest that, if FESCo is going to have a different chair each week, you at least have an SOP for arranging the meetings, so that this kind of thing is done consistently? And, if possible, include the meeting minutes list as the recipient as well ? I find it useful to have a single list to which all the minutes get directed and read through the updates. I am hoping that others may find it useful too. -- sankarshan mukhopadhyay http://sankarshan.randomink.org/blog -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Meeting minutes FESCo (2012-03-26)
On Wed, 2012-04-04 at 08:25 +0200, David Tardon wrote: On Tue, Apr 03, 2012 at 11:23:04AM -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: On Fri, 2012-03-30 at 14:29 +0200, David Tardon wrote: Or do we really need a policy/process/guideline for _everything_? I tend to find it's a good idea. It has lots of benefits and virtually no drawbacks, except that someone has to find time to write it. And then everyone else has to read it and _remember_ it, which is IMHO the main drawback. And because some/many will not, we are no better off than before, except there is one policy more. Note: I am not against policies in general, just against policies regarding trivial matters. I _would_ check packaging guidelines before submitting a new package for review. I _would not_ look at the current e-mail sending policy (if there was one) before sending an e-mail to fedora-devel. Actually, there is a good chance I would not even remember there _was_ any e-mail sending policy... well, there's obviously a line somewhere. but frankly this particular example is, to me, an absolutely _ideal_ candidate for an SOP. I mean, look, what is it fesco wants? They want a rotating chair. Which effectively means that a single, fairly rote task - announce a meeting is going to happen, chair the meeting, send out minutes from the meeting - is going to be done so infrequently by such a large group of people that no single one of them is likely to do it often enough to actually remember exactly how it's done each time. which is going to lead to small or large variances in procedure and all sorts of inadvertent mistakes. It's not like meetings where the same person does it every week and could do it with their eyes shut and their hands strapped to their chair. Not that I have any experience of such things. Ahem. I can't really think of a situation _better_ suited to an SOP. I mean, on top of the above, FESCo membership *changes* all the time. What better way is there to explain to a new FESCo member how to chair the meeting for the first time than 'go read the SOP which explains exactly how to chair the meeting'? -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Meeting minutes FESCo (2012-03-26)
Adam Williamson wrote: I mean, look, what is it fesco wants? They want a rotating chair. Which effectively means that a single, fairly rote task - announce a meeting is going to happen, chair the meeting, send out minutes from the meeting - is going to be done so infrequently by such a large group of people that no single one of them is likely to do it often enough to actually remember exactly how it's done each time. which is going to lead to small or large variances in procedure and all sorts of inadvertent mistakes. I think we need to coax one of the FESCo members into volunteering to do this task systematically. One chair is how things worked back when I was in FESCo and it worked much better. FESCo had other issues at that time, but organization was not one of them. Kevin Kofler -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Meeting minutes FESCo (2012-03-26)
On Fri, 2012-03-30 at 14:29 +0200, David Tardon wrote: On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 11:16:30AM -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: On Mon, 2012-03-26 at 21:17 +0200, Marcela Mašláňová wrote: Could I suggest that, if FESCo is going to have a different chair each week, you at least have an SOP for arranging the meetings, so that this kind of thing is done consistently? Just in the last two weeks we've had a FESCo meeting announcement with an empty topic, and now a minutes post with a different subject from all the previous minutes posts (the 'standard' appears to be Summary minutes for today's FESCo meeting (-XX-XX)) and with no text but an *attachment* of the meetbot summary. Sorry, but I really do not understand your problem. I have never had a problem recognizing the meeting notes email. The same for parsing its content. (Actually, I haven't even noticed that the subject is not always the same...) If it is really so important that the structure of that email is always the same, without a sligthest variation, it should be sent directly by the bot, without any human intervention. Period. If I want to quickly look through the results of all the FESCo meetings, I just search for some word which should always show up in the topic of those mails but rarely shows up in the topic of other mails. If there's no process for sending the mail, I've no guarantee or reasonable expectation I'll actually *find* all the mails this way. It's not about 'slightest variation(s)'. Remember one of the cases I cited was that an announce got sent with no topic *at all*. How's anyone ever going to find that one again? Doing everything by bot is not always possible, if you want the summary to have some kind of vaguely intelligent hand-editing. But if all you do is copy/paste the bot summary, then sure, it would make sense just to automate the process. Less chance of mistakes, saves everyone time. Or do we really need a policy/process/guideline for _everything_? I tend to find it's a good idea. It has lots of benefits and virtually no drawbacks, except that someone has to find time to write it. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Meeting minutes FESCo (2012-03-26)
On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 11:16:30AM -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: On Mon, 2012-03-26 at 21:17 +0200, Marcela Mašláňová wrote: Could I suggest that, if FESCo is going to have a different chair each week, you at least have an SOP for arranging the meetings, so that this kind of thing is done consistently? Just in the last two weeks we've had a FESCo meeting announcement with an empty topic, and now a minutes post with a different subject from all the previous minutes posts (the 'standard' appears to be Summary minutes for today's FESCo meeting (-XX-XX)) and with no text but an *attachment* of the meetbot summary. Sorry, but I really do not understand your problem. I have never had a problem recognizing the meeting notes email. The same for parsing its content. (Actually, I haven't even noticed that the subject is not always the same...) If it is really so important that the structure of that email is always the same, without a sligthest variation, it should be sent directly by the bot, without any human intervention. Period. Or do we really need a policy/process/guideline for _everything_? D. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Meeting minutes FESCo (2012-03-26)
On 03/30/2012 08:29 AM, David Tardon wrote: On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 11:16:30AM -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: On Mon, 2012-03-26 at 21:17 +0200, Marcela Mašláňová wrote: Could I suggest that, if FESCo is going to have a different chair each week, you at least have an SOP for arranging the meetings, so that this kind of thing is done consistently? Just in the last two weeks we've had a FESCo meeting announcement with an empty topic, and now a minutes post with a different subject from all the previous minutes posts (the 'standard' appears to be Summary minutes for today's FESCo meeting (-XX-XX)) and with no text but an *attachment* of the meetbot summary. Sorry, but I really do not understand your problem. I have never had a problem recognizing the meeting notes email. The same for parsing its content. (Actually, I haven't even noticed that the subject is not always the same...) Presumably the problem is not identifying it when he sees it, but rather searching for it as a reference. The former is easy; the latter isn't necessarily, and consistency would go quite far to change that. -- Peter -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Meeting minutes FESCo (2012-03-26)
On Mon, 2012-03-26 at 21:17 +0200, Marcela Mašláňová wrote: Could I suggest that, if FESCo is going to have a different chair each week, you at least have an SOP for arranging the meetings, so that this kind of thing is done consistently? Just in the last two weeks we've had a FESCo meeting announcement with an empty topic, and now a minutes post with a different subject from all the previous minutes posts (the 'standard' appears to be Summary minutes for today's FESCo meeting (-XX-XX)) and with no text but an *attachment* of the meetbot summary. It looks rather unprofessional, to be honest. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Meeting minutes FESCo (2012-03-26)
On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 1:16 PM, Adam Williamson awill...@redhat.com wrote: On Mon, 2012-03-26 at 21:17 +0200, Marcela Mašláňová wrote: Could I suggest that, if FESCo is going to have a different chair each week, you at least have an SOP for arranging the meetings, so that this kind of thing is done consistently? We do. https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FESCo_meeting_process Just in the last two weeks we've had a FESCo meeting announcement with an empty topic, and now a minutes post with a different subject from all the previous minutes posts (the 'standard' appears to be Summary minutes for today's FESCo meeting (-XX-XX)) and with no text but an *attachment* of the meetbot summary. It looks rather unprofessional, to be honest. I suggest we all pay a bit better attention to it, including myself. -J -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel -- in your fear, seek only peace in your fear, seek only love -d. bowie -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Meeting minutes FESCo (2012-03-26)
On Tue, 2012-03-27 at 13:19 -0500, Jon Ciesla wrote: On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 1:16 PM, Adam Williamson awill...@redhat.com wrote: On Mon, 2012-03-26 at 21:17 +0200, Marcela Mašláňová wrote: Could I suggest that, if FESCo is going to have a different chair each week, you at least have an SOP for arranging the meetings, so that this kind of thing is done consistently? We do. https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FESCo_meeting_process Just in the last two weeks we've had a FESCo meeting announcement with an empty topic, and now a minutes post with a different subject from all the previous minutes posts (the 'standard' appears to be Summary minutes for today's FESCo meeting (-XX-XX)) and with no text but an *attachment* of the meetbot summary. It looks rather unprofessional, to be honest. I suggest we all pay a bit better attention to it, including myself. Heh. The SOP does not, however, specify the correct topic for either email. It provides a template for the 'announcement' mail, but no template for the 'minutes' mail. It does not provide a link to an example of either mail. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Meeting minutes FESCo (2012-03-26)
On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 1:41 PM, Adam Williamson awill...@redhat.com wrote: On Tue, 2012-03-27 at 13:19 -0500, Jon Ciesla wrote: On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 1:16 PM, Adam Williamson awill...@redhat.com wrote: On Mon, 2012-03-26 at 21:17 +0200, Marcela Mašláňová wrote: Could I suggest that, if FESCo is going to have a different chair each week, you at least have an SOP for arranging the meetings, so that this kind of thing is done consistently? We do. https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FESCo_meeting_process Just in the last two weeks we've had a FESCo meeting announcement with an empty topic, and now a minutes post with a different subject from all the previous minutes posts (the 'standard' appears to be Summary minutes for today's FESCo meeting (-XX-XX)) and with no text but an *attachment* of the meetbot summary. It looks rather unprofessional, to be honest. I suggest we all pay a bit better attention to it, including myself. Heh. The SOP does not, however, specify the correct topic for either email. It provides a template for the 'announcement' mail, but no template for the 'minutes' mail. It does not provide a link to an example of either mail. If you think this is a good example, I'll edit the page to fix those issues. http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2012-March/163885.html -J -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel -- in your fear, seek only peace in your fear, seek only love -d. bowie -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Meeting minutes FESCo (2012-03-26)
On Tue, 2012-03-27 at 13:48 -0500, Jon Ciesla wrote: On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 1:41 PM, Adam Williamson awill...@redhat.com wrote: On Tue, 2012-03-27 at 13:19 -0500, Jon Ciesla wrote: On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 1:16 PM, Adam Williamson awill...@redhat.com wrote: On Mon, 2012-03-26 at 21:17 +0200, Marcela Mašláňová wrote: Could I suggest that, if FESCo is going to have a different chair each week, you at least have an SOP for arranging the meetings, so that this kind of thing is done consistently? We do. https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FESCo_meeting_process Just in the last two weeks we've had a FESCo meeting announcement with an empty topic, and now a minutes post with a different subject from all the previous minutes posts (the 'standard' appears to be Summary minutes for today's FESCo meeting (-XX-XX)) and with no text but an *attachment* of the meetbot summary. It looks rather unprofessional, to be honest. I suggest we all pay a bit better attention to it, including myself. Heh. The SOP does not, however, specify the correct topic for either email. It provides a template for the 'announcement' mail, but no template for the 'minutes' mail. It does not provide a link to an example of either mail. If you think this is a good example, I'll edit the page to fix those issues. http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2012-March/163885.html I'd probably pick one which doesn't have an extra 'note' in the subject. Never underestimate the idiocy of crowds. ;) -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Meeting minutes FESCo (2012-03-26)
On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 2:20 PM, Adam Williamson awill...@redhat.com wrote: On Tue, 2012-03-27 at 13:48 -0500, Jon Ciesla wrote: On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 1:41 PM, Adam Williamson awill...@redhat.com wrote: On Tue, 2012-03-27 at 13:19 -0500, Jon Ciesla wrote: On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 1:16 PM, Adam Williamson awill...@redhat.com wrote: On Mon, 2012-03-26 at 21:17 +0200, Marcela Mašláňová wrote: Could I suggest that, if FESCo is going to have a different chair each week, you at least have an SOP for arranging the meetings, so that this kind of thing is done consistently? We do. https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FESCo_meeting_process Just in the last two weeks we've had a FESCo meeting announcement with an empty topic, and now a minutes post with a different subject from all the previous minutes posts (the 'standard' appears to be Summary minutes for today's FESCo meeting (-XX-XX)) and with no text but an *attachment* of the meetbot summary. It looks rather unprofessional, to be honest. I suggest we all pay a bit better attention to it, including myself. Heh. The SOP does not, however, specify the correct topic for either email. It provides a template for the 'announcement' mail, but no template for the 'minutes' mail. It does not provide a link to an example of either mail. If you think this is a good example, I'll edit the page to fix those issues. http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2012-March/163885.html I'd probably pick one which doesn't have an extra 'note' in the subject. Never underestimate the idiocy of crowds. ;) I put the subject in the template. :) How about this one? http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2012-January/161463.html -J -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel -- in your fear, seek only peace in your fear, seek only love -d. bowie -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Meeting minutes FESCo (2012-03-26)
On Tue, 2012-03-27 at 14:33 -0500, Jon Ciesla wrote: If you think this is a good example, I'll edit the page to fix those issues. http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2012-March/163885.html I'd probably pick one which doesn't have an extra 'note' in the subject. Never underestimate the idiocy of crowds. ;) I put the subject in the template. :) How about this one? http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2012-January/161463.html It has a rather different subject from the other one, doesn't it? =) Really, either would be fine, I'm just nitpicking. Pick one and go with it. Any template + specific requirement for subject line + example link would be better than the present contents. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Meeting minutes FESCo (2012-03-26)
On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 2:40 PM, Adam Williamson awill...@redhat.com wrote: On Tue, 2012-03-27 at 14:33 -0500, Jon Ciesla wrote: If you think this is a good example, I'll edit the page to fix those issues. http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2012-March/163885.html I'd probably pick one which doesn't have an extra 'note' in the subject. Never underestimate the idiocy of crowds. ;) I put the subject in the template. :) How about this one? http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2012-January/161463.html It has a rather different subject from the other one, doesn't it? =) Really, either would be fine, I'm just nitpicking. Pick one and go with it. Any template + specific requirement for subject line + example link would be better than the present contents. Done. If this needs tweaking, let me know. -J -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel -- in your fear, seek only peace in your fear, seek only love -d. bowie -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
