Re: Support for separate /usr, was: Moving lspci and setpci from /sbin to /usr/sbin?
Nils Philippsen (n...@redhat.com) said: IMO, the more dire problem is that /sbin/sulogin links against libfreebl3.so which is on /usr. That's just recently prevented me from interactively running fsck on my root partition which had errors without a rescue image. Somebody wants a bug for that or will it be closed WONTFIX right away because separate /usr is officially not supported? There should already be a bug for this. Bill -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Moving lspci and setpci from /sbin to /usr/sbin?
On Friday 29 January 2010 06:35:21 Ralf Corsepius wrote: On 01/28/2010 04:06 PM, Chris Adams wrote: Once upon a time, Ralf Corsepiusrc040...@freenet.de said: On 01/27/2010 02:17 PM, Michal Hlavinka wrote: Do you think moving this is a bad idea? Yes. The pciutils are valuable tools when trying to recover from situations when things go utterly wrong. So what difference does it make where they are (e.g. why do you say this is a bad idea)? Consider having /usr on a separate partition and /usr failing to mount at bootup and times at system bootup, during which /usr is not yet available, because it has not been mounted, yet. These scenarios are the key scenarios to separate those parts of a distros which need to be considered essential (have to go into /lib, /bin, /sbin) and which to be consider non-essential. right, the point is lspci wont work without /usr, but can you give me any real world scenario where not having working pciutils on system with not mounted /usr can make any trouble that you won't be able to mount /usr without it? They don't work without other stuff in /usr, so they should be in /usr. Rsp. this other stuff currently in /usr needs to move, too. only problem can be with separate /usr partition but because of library in /usr it would be already broken and I've not seen any complain about it ever. Well, a separate /usr-partition has never worked on RH-based distros. I beg to differ; I've been using a separate /usr (mounted read-only except during maintenance) on RHL, RHEL, and Fedora for at least 13 years. Really? The situation definitely has improved over times, but I recall times, when not even rpm was able to run without /usr. Consider taking out /usr from your fstab and to check how far you can get. With /sbin/lspci you will be able to check your pci setup, with /usr/sbin/lspci, you wouldn't. Should setpci be used somewhere in bootup scripts, you likely won't be able to boot up your system at all. and because libpci is in /usr for a long time and there was not any complain so far, it probably is not used Ralf -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Moving lspci and setpci from /sbin to /usr/sbin?
On 2/1/2010 6:01 PM, Michal Hlavinka wrote: right, the point is lspci wont work without /usr, but can you give me any real world scenario where not having working pciutils on system with not mounted /usr can make any trouble that you won't be able to mount /usr without it? For instance a block device for your HDD is missing. You can look at lspci to determine whether your SATA controller is found. Though, this can be done via dmesg as well. Pretty like any other lspci info :) -- Best regards, Sergey Rudchenko -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Moving lspci and setpci from /sbin to /usr/sbin?
Once upon a time, Ralf Corsepius rc040...@freenet.de said: IMO, you are facing a hen-and-egg problem: You've never seen such a complaint, because using a separate /usr partition has never worked on RH-based distros. Please stop repeating this untrue statement. As I told you already, I have used separate /usr since RHL 3.0.3. -- Chris Adams cmad...@hiwaay.net Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet Services I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Moving lspci and setpci from /sbin to /usr/sbin?
On Mon, Feb 01, 2010 at 11:16:54AM -0600, Chris Adams wrote: Once upon a time, Ralf Corsepius rc040...@freenet.de said: IMO, you are facing a hen-and-egg problem: You've never seen such a complaint, because using a separate /usr partition has never worked on RH-based distros. Please stop repeating this untrue statement. As I told you already, I have used separate /usr since RHL 3.0.3. I've done this for a long time as well, though only on local disk, no exotic configuration. -- Paul W. Frieldshttp://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ Where open source multiplies: http://opensource.com -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Moving lspci and setpci from /sbin to /usr/sbin?
On 02/01/2010 10:23 PM, Paul W. Frields wrote: On Mon, Feb 01, 2010 at 11:16:54AM -0600, Chris Adams wrote: Once upon a time, Ralf Corsepiusrc040...@freenet.de said: IMO, you are facing a hen-and-egg problem: You've never seen such a complaint, because using a separate /usr partition has never worked on RH-based distros. Please stop repeating this untrue statement. You violently don't refuse to understand? Please read the whole threat. Citing myself (http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2010-January/129940.html): RC Consider having /usr on a separate partition and /usr failing to RC mount RC at bootup and times at system bootup, during which /usr is not yet RC available, because it has not been mounted, yet. RC These scenarios are the key scenarios to separate those parts of a RC distros which need to be considered essential (have to go into RC /lib, RC /bin, /sbin) and which to be consider non-essential. As I told you already, I have used separate /usr since RHL 3.0.3. I've done this for a long time as well, though only on local disk, no exotic configuration. The emergency scenario (/usr not being available) does not work with Fedora and probably all RH-based distros, because there are packages in /bin/* /sbin/*, which are dynamically linked against libraries in /usr/lib*. Ralf -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Moving lspci and setpci from /sbin to /usr/sbin?
On Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 8:33 PM, Ralf Corsepius rc040...@freenet.de wrote: The emergency scenario (/usr not being available) does not work with Fedora and probably all RH-based distros, because there are packages in /bin/* /sbin/*, which are dynamically linked against libraries in /usr/lib*. When you said using a separate /usr partition has never worked, some (reasonably?) thought you meant it's not even possible to have /usr on a separate partition. What you did mean, apparently, was that those binaries (and only those binaries) in /bin and /sbin which dynamically link to libs in /usr/lib won't work. But I don't understand why, in response to Michal's observation libpci is in /usr for a long time and there was not any complain so far, you responded [y]ou've never seen such a complaint because using a separate /usr partition has never worked on RH-based distros. The reason I don't understand is that as long as you have a shell that doesn't link to libs in /usr, you'll have a working command line. When you try to figure out why /usr didn't mount, you might try to use lspci, find libpci is unavailable, and then say dang. The fact that nobody has complained may mean it's not a show stopper (e.g. use dmesg), but it's not a hen-and-egg problem, in my opinion. -David -- David Eisner http://cradle.brokenglass.com -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Moving lspci and setpci from /sbin to /usr/sbin?
On Fri, 29 Jan 2010 09:32:15 +0100 Ralf Corsepius rc040...@freenet.de wrote: Presuming /sbin/lspci is supposed to work without having /usr/ mounted, then libpci.so.X needs to reside in /lib|/lib64. Or differently: Everything in /bin and /sbin, must only be dynamically linked against libraries in /lib|/lib64. The fact lspci is linked against /usr/{lib|lib64}/libpci.so.X is a defect. I agree. For the record, the same issue applies to /sbin/lsusb and /usr/lib/libusb-0.1.so.4. I have not checked whether there are other cases. -- Hans Ulrich Niedermann -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Moving lspci and setpci from /sbin to /usr/sbin?
On 1/29/2010 2:38 PM, Hans Ulrich Niedermann wrote: On Fri, 29 Jan 2010 09:32:15 +0100 Ralf Corsepiusrc040...@freenet.de wrote: Presuming /sbin/lspci is supposed to work without having /usr/ mounted, then libpci.so.X needs to reside in /lib|/lib64. Or differently: Everything in /bin and /sbin, must only be dynamically linked against libraries in /lib|/lib64. The fact lspci is linked against /usr/{lib|lib64}/libpci.so.X is a defect. I agree. For the record, the same issue applies to /sbin/lsusb and /usr/lib/libusb-0.1.so.4. I have not checked whether there are other cases. What if we link the lspci and lsusb as static binaries? That would allow us not to break the filesystem architecture and have usable tools. -- Best regards Sergey Rudchenko -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Moving lspci and setpci from /sbin to /usr/sbin?
On 29 January 2010 14:16, Maxim Burgerhout ma...@wzzrd.com wrote: What if we link the lspci and lsusb as static binaries? That would allow us not to break the filesystem architecture and have usable tools. You'd still miss pci.ids without /usr, so that would have to move too. Only place remotely suitable for that - not being beneath /usr or /var - would be /etc, but that's breaking with yet another long tradition of having pci.ids in /usr/share/hwdata. I see two camps: people who want to move lspci to /usr/(s)bin and people who want libpci to move to /lib(64). Both options create a more consistent environment. And moving libpci to /lib(64) has the benefit of making lspci half-functional if /usr is broken (pci.ids are still in /usr/share/hwdata), while moving lspci to /usr/(s)bin puts it in the same prefix as libpci. Personally, I think if some people need to have lspci working without /usr, then that should probably weigh heavier than lspci having the same prefix as libpci. Or differently: Everything in /bin and /sbin, must only be dynamically linked against libraries in /lib|/lib64. The fact lspci is linked against /usr/{lib|lib64}/libpci.so.X is a defect. I agree. That sounds pretty logical, indeed. But I think it might be a long road to get there. I did a quick check for binaries in /sbin and /bin that are directly linked to libs in /usr. There's a good lot more: my F12 system gives these binaries in /sbin: - umount-devkit - rpcbind - iw - nash - iptables-multi - rpc.statd - lspci - plymouthd - sulogin - mount.nfs - dhcp6c - crda - unix_update - setpci - umount.hal - ip6tables-multi - unix_chkpwd - mkfs.ntfs An these in /bin: - rpm - mailx - login This all seems very subjective. Different people will have different thoughts on what is essential for recovery in the situation where /usr can't be mounted. Many of these arguments are moot anyway, because nowadays if as system gets hosed to the extent that /usr can't be mounted, the most effective way to recover is to boot the machine in question with a live CD or USB and have the full range of tools accesible to diagnose the problem. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Moving lspci and setpci from /sbin to /usr/sbin?
On Fri, 2010-01-29 at 14:57 +0200, Sergey Rudchenko wrote: On 1/29/2010 2:38 PM, Hans Ulrich Niedermann wrote: On Fri, 29 Jan 2010 09:32:15 +0100 Ralf Corsepiusrc040...@freenet.de wrote: Presuming /sbin/lspci is supposed to work without having /usr/ mounted, then libpci.so.X needs to reside in /lib|/lib64. Or differently: Everything in /bin and /sbin, must only be dynamically linked against libraries in /lib|/lib64. The fact lspci is linked against /usr/{lib|lib64}/libpci.so.X is a defect. I agree. For the record, the same issue applies to /sbin/lsusb and /usr/lib/libusb-0.1.so.4. I have not checked whether there are other cases. What if we link the lspci and lsusb as static binaries? That would allow us not to break the filesystem architecture and have usable tools. There's no need for that. Binaries in /bin or /sbin should have their libraries in /lib rather than /usr/lib . This is perfectly OK under FHS. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Moving lspci and setpci from /sbin to /usr/sbin?
On Thu, Jan 28, 2010 at 11:35 PM, Ralf Corsepius rc040...@freenet.de wrote: Consider taking out /usr from your fstab and to check how far you can get. With /sbin/lspci you will be able to check your pci setup, with /usr/sbin/lspci, you wouldn't. False. /sbin/lspci doesn't work without libpci.so, which is in /usr/lib. Thus /sbin/lspci will fail to load in the absence of /usr. This is exactly the same as the case you describe for /bin/rpm and /sbin/setpci. Maybe I'm just misinterpreting your post... -- Garrett Holmstrom -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Moving lspci and setpci from /sbin to /usr/sbin?
Hi all, in Fedora we have pciutils binaries (lspci and setpci) in /sbin, both of them use pciutils-libs (/usr/lib/...) and afaik this is how it works for ages. I'd like to move them from /sbin to /usr/sbin to have them with the same prefix as library has. Do you think it can break anything? A few facts: 1)library is already in /usr/lib and lspci/setpci won't work without it 2)pci.ids (lives in hwdata package) is in /usr/share/hwdata 3)yum remove pciutils will remove only system-config-{firewall,network} as dependencies Do you think moving this is a bad idea? I think it should not break anything, only problem can be with separate /usr partition but because of library in /usr it would be already broken and I've not seen any complain about it ever. If there are no complains, I'll move it next week (in rawhide only). Cheers, Michal Hlavinka -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Moving lspci and setpci from /sbin to /usr/sbin?
Hi Michal, A few thoughts on this: - on RHEL boxes, the dependency on libpci does not exist and lspci is in /sbin. Therefore, on RHEL boxes, lspci will still work with a broken /usr partition. I haven't heard of anyone absolutely needing lspci on a system with a broken /usr partition, but it *is* possible to use it. Moving it also breaks a pretty long tradition, but that should matter too much. I actually prefer lspci to be in my path as a normal user. - it would be consistent if lsusb would make the same move to /usr/sbin, if lspci goes that way. - I noticed Debian puts lspci in /usr/bin. I'm curious about the reason lspci is to remain in a sbin directory if it's being moved anyway. I haven't been involved in Fedora for that long, but I'd like to participate in this discussion a bit, if that's ok :-) Regards, Maxim Burgerhout ma...@wzzrd.com GPG Fingerprint EB11 5E56 E648 9D99 E8EF 05FB C513 6FD4 1302 B48A On Wed, Jan 27, 2010 at 14:17, Michal Hlavinka mhlav...@redhat.com wrote: Hi all, in Fedora we have pciutils binaries (lspci and setpci) in /sbin, both of them use pciutils-libs (/usr/lib/...) and afaik this is how it works for ages. I'd like to move them from /sbin to /usr/sbin to have them with the same prefix as library has. Do you think it can break anything? A few facts: 1)library is already in /usr/lib and lspci/setpci won't work without it 2)pci.ids (lives in hwdata package) is in /usr/share/hwdata 3)yum remove pciutils will remove only system-config-{firewall,network} as dependencies Do you think moving this is a bad idea? I think it should not break anything, only problem can be with separate /usr partition but because of library in /usr it would be already broken and I've not seen any complain about it ever. If there are no complains, I'll move it next week (in rawhide only). Cheers, Michal Hlavinka -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Moving lspci and setpci from /sbin to /usr/sbin?
On Wednesday 27 January 2010 14:51:15 Maxim Burgerhout wrote: Hi Michal, A few thoughts on this: - on RHEL boxes, the dependency on libpci does not exist and lspci is in /sbin. Therefore, on RHEL boxes, lspci will still work with a broken /usr partition. I haven't heard of anyone absolutely needing lspci on a system with a broken /usr partition, but it *is* possible to use it. Moving it also breaks a pretty long tradition, but that should matter too much. I actually prefer lspci to be in my path as a normal user. well, on RHEL5 there is no pciutils-libs, so it does not depend on any library in /usr/lib, but it depends at least on /usr/share/hwdata/pci.ids and without it lspci is not that useful - it would be consistent if lsusb would make the same move to /usr/sbin, if lspci goes that way. on the other hand lsusb requires library from /usr/lib (on RHEL5) so it is in /sbin but won't work without mounted /usr (and there are also usb.ids) - I noticed Debian puts lspci in /usr/bin. I'm curious about the reason lspci is to remain in a sbin directory if it's being moved anyway. good question I haven't been involved in Fedora for that long, but I'd like to participate in this discussion a bit, if that's ok :-) Regards, Maxim Burgerhout ma...@wzzrd.com GPG Fingerprint EB11 5E56 E648 9D99 E8EF 05FB C513 6FD4 1302 B48A On Wed, Jan 27, 2010 at 14:17, Michal Hlavinka mhlav...@redhat.com wrote: Hi all, in Fedora we have pciutils binaries (lspci and setpci) in /sbin, both of them use pciutils-libs (/usr/lib/...) and afaik this is how it works for ages. I'd like to move them from /sbin to /usr/sbin to have them with the same prefix as library has. Do you think it can break anything? A few facts: 1)library is already in /usr/lib and lspci/setpci won't work without it 2)pci.ids (lives in hwdata package) is in /usr/share/hwdata 3)yum remove pciutils will remove only system-config-{firewall,network} as dependencies Do you think moving this is a bad idea? I think it should not break anything, only problem can be with separate /usr partition but because of library in /usr it would be already broken and I've not seen any complain about it ever. If there are no complains, I'll move it next week (in rawhide only). Cheers, Michal Hlavinka -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Moving lspci and setpci from /sbin to /usr/sbin?
Michal Hlavinka (mhlav...@redhat.com) said: Do you think moving this is a bad idea? I think it should not break anything, only problem can be with separate /usr partition but because of library in /usr it would be already broken and I've not seen any complain about it ever. Furthermore, most all of the information provided by lspci in a no-/usr recovery situation can be found in /sys if absolutely necessary. Bill -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Moving lspci and setpci from /sbin to /usr/sbin?
On Wed, Jan 27, 2010 at 02:51:15PM +0100, Maxim Burgerhout wrote: - I noticed Debian puts lspci in /usr/bin. I'm curious about the reason lspci is to remain in a sbin directory if it's being moved anyway. +1, please. -- Matthew Miller mat...@mattdm.org http://mattdm.org/ -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel