Re: Support for separate /usr, was: Moving lspci and setpci from /sbin to /usr/sbin?

2010-02-09 Thread Bill Nottingham
Nils Philippsen (n...@redhat.com) said: 
 IMO, the more dire problem is that /sbin/sulogin links against
 libfreebl3.so which is on /usr. That's just recently prevented me from
 interactively running fsck on my root partition which had errors without
 a rescue image. Somebody wants a bug for that or will it be closed
 WONTFIX right away because separate /usr is officially not supported?

There should already be a bug for this.

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Re: Moving lspci and setpci from /sbin to /usr/sbin?

2010-02-01 Thread Michal Hlavinka
On Friday 29 January 2010 06:35:21 Ralf Corsepius wrote:
 On 01/28/2010 04:06 PM, Chris Adams wrote:
  Once upon a time, Ralf Corsepiusrc040...@freenet.de  said:
  On 01/27/2010 02:17 PM, Michal Hlavinka wrote:
  Do you think moving this is a bad idea?
  
  Yes.
  
  The pciutils are valuable tools when trying to recover from situations
  when things go utterly wrong.
  
  So what difference does it make where they are (e.g. why do you say this
  is a bad idea)?
 
 Consider having /usr on a separate partition and /usr failing to mount
 at bootup and times at system bootup, during which /usr is not yet
 available, because it has not been mounted, yet.
 
 These scenarios are the key scenarios to separate those parts of a
 distros which need to be considered essential (have to go into /lib,
 /bin, /sbin) and which to be consider non-essential.

right, the point is lspci wont work without /usr, but can you give me any real 
world scenario where not having working pciutils on system with not mounted 
/usr can make any trouble that you won't be able to mount /usr without it?

 
  They don't work without other stuff in /usr, so they
  should be in /usr.
 
 Rsp. this other stuff currently in /usr needs to move, too.
 
  only problem can be with separate /usr partition but because of library
  in /usr it would be already broken and I've not seen any complain
  about it ever.
  
  Well, a separate /usr-partition has never worked on RH-based distros.
  
  I beg to differ; I've been using a separate /usr (mounted read-only
  except during maintenance) on RHL, RHEL, and Fedora for at least 13
  years.
 
 Really? The situation definitely has improved over times, but I recall
 times, when not even rpm was able to run without /usr.
 
 Consider taking out /usr from your fstab and to check how far you can get.
 With /sbin/lspci you will be able to check your pci setup, with
 /usr/sbin/lspci, you wouldn't.
 
 Should setpci be used somewhere in bootup scripts, you likely won't be
 able to boot up your system at all.

and because libpci is in /usr for a long time and there was not any complain 
so far, it probably is not used 

 
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Re: Moving lspci and setpci from /sbin to /usr/sbin?

2010-02-01 Thread Sergey Rudchenko
On 2/1/2010 6:01 PM, Michal Hlavinka wrote:
 right, the point is lspci wont work without /usr, but can you give me 
 any real
 world scenario where not having working pciutils on system with not mounted
 /usr can make any trouble that you won't be able to mount /usr without it?



For instance a  block device for your HDD is missing. You can look at 
lspci to determine whether your SATA controller is found.
Though, this can be done via dmesg as well. Pretty like any other lspci 
info :)

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Re: Moving lspci and setpci from /sbin to /usr/sbin?

2010-02-01 Thread Chris Adams
Once upon a time, Ralf Corsepius rc040...@freenet.de said:
 IMO, you are facing a hen-and-egg problem: You've never seen such a 
 complaint, because using a separate /usr partition has never worked on 
 RH-based distros.

Please stop repeating this untrue statement.  As I told you already, I
have used separate /usr since RHL 3.0.3.

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Re: Moving lspci and setpci from /sbin to /usr/sbin?

2010-02-01 Thread Paul W. Frields
On Mon, Feb 01, 2010 at 11:16:54AM -0600, Chris Adams wrote:
 Once upon a time, Ralf Corsepius rc040...@freenet.de said:
  IMO, you are facing a hen-and-egg problem: You've never seen such a 
  complaint, because using a separate /usr partition has never worked on 
  RH-based distros.
 
 Please stop repeating this untrue statement.  As I told you already, I
 have used separate /usr since RHL 3.0.3.

I've done this for a long time as well, though only on local disk, no
exotic configuration.

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Re: Moving lspci and setpci from /sbin to /usr/sbin?

2010-02-01 Thread Ralf Corsepius
On 02/01/2010 10:23 PM, Paul W. Frields wrote:
 On Mon, Feb 01, 2010 at 11:16:54AM -0600, Chris Adams wrote:
 Once upon a time, Ralf Corsepiusrc040...@freenet.de  said:
 IMO, you are facing a hen-and-egg problem: You've never seen such a
 complaint, because using a separate /usr partition has never worked on
 RH-based distros.

 Please stop repeating this untrue statement.

You violently don't refuse to understand?

Please read the whole threat.

Citing myself 
(http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2010-January/129940.html):

RC Consider having /usr on a separate partition and /usr failing to RC 
mount
RC at bootup and times at system bootup, during which /usr is not yet
RC available, because it has not been mounted, yet.

RC These scenarios are the key scenarios to separate those parts of a
RC distros which need to be considered essential (have to go into
RC /lib,
RC /bin, /sbin) and which to be consider non-essential.

 As I told you already, I
 have used separate /usr since RHL 3.0.3.

 I've done this for a long time as well, though only on local disk, no
 exotic configuration.

The emergency scenario (/usr not being available) does not work with 
Fedora and probably all RH-based distros, because there are packages in 
/bin/* /sbin/*, which are dynamically linked against libraries in /usr/lib*.



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Re: Moving lspci and setpci from /sbin to /usr/sbin?

2010-02-01 Thread David Eisner
On Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 8:33 PM, Ralf Corsepius rc040...@freenet.de wrote:
 The emergency scenario (/usr not being available) does not work with
 Fedora and probably all RH-based distros, because there are packages in
 /bin/* /sbin/*, which are dynamically linked against libraries in /usr/lib*.

When you said using a separate /usr partition has never worked, some
(reasonably?) thought you meant it's not even possible to have /usr on
a separate partition.  What you did mean, apparently, was that those
binaries (and only those binaries) in /bin and /sbin which dynamically
link to libs in /usr/lib won't work.

But I don't understand why, in response to Michal's observation
libpci is in /usr for a long time and there was not any complain so
far, you responded [y]ou've never seen such a complaint because
using a separate /usr partition has never worked on RH-based distros.

The reason I don't understand is that as long as you have a shell that
doesn't link to libs in /usr, you'll have a working command line.
When you try to figure out why /usr didn't mount, you might try to use
lspci, find libpci is unavailable, and then say dang.

The fact that nobody has complained may mean it's not a show stopper
(e.g. use dmesg), but it's not a hen-and-egg problem, in my opinion.

-David

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Re: Moving lspci and setpci from /sbin to /usr/sbin?

2010-01-29 Thread Hans Ulrich Niedermann
On Fri, 29 Jan 2010 09:32:15 +0100
Ralf Corsepius rc040...@freenet.de wrote:

 Presuming /sbin/lspci is supposed to work without having /usr/
 mounted, then libpci.so.X needs to reside in /lib|/lib64.

 Or differently: Everything in /bin and /sbin, must only be
 dynamically linked against libraries in /lib|/lib64. The fact lspci
 is linked against /usr/{lib|lib64}/libpci.so.X is a defect.

I agree.

For the record, the same issue applies to /sbin/lsusb
and /usr/lib/libusb-0.1.so.4.

I have not checked whether there are other cases.

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Re: Moving lspci and setpci from /sbin to /usr/sbin?

2010-01-29 Thread Sergey Rudchenko
On 1/29/2010 2:38 PM, Hans Ulrich Niedermann wrote:
 On Fri, 29 Jan 2010 09:32:15 +0100
 Ralf Corsepiusrc040...@freenet.de  wrote:


 Presuming /sbin/lspci is supposed to work without having /usr/
 mounted, then libpci.so.X needs to reside in /lib|/lib64.

 Or differently: Everything in /bin and /sbin, must only be
 dynamically linked against libraries in /lib|/lib64. The fact lspci
 is linked against /usr/{lib|lib64}/libpci.so.X is a defect.
  
 I agree.

 For the record, the same issue applies to /sbin/lsusb
 and /usr/lib/libusb-0.1.so.4.

 I have not checked whether there are other cases.


What if we link the lspci and lsusb as static binaries? That would allow 
us not to break the filesystem architecture and have usable tools.

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Re: Moving lspci and setpci from /sbin to /usr/sbin?

2010-01-29 Thread Jonathan Underwood
On 29 January 2010 14:16, Maxim Burgerhout ma...@wzzrd.com wrote:
 What if we link the lspci and lsusb as static binaries? That would allow
 us not to break the filesystem architecture and have usable tools.

 You'd still miss pci.ids without /usr, so that would have to move too.
 Only place remotely suitable for that - not being beneath /usr or /var
 - would be /etc, but that's breaking with yet another long tradition
 of having pci.ids in /usr/share/hwdata.

 I see two camps: people who want to move lspci to /usr/(s)bin and
 people who want libpci to move to /lib(64). Both options create a more
 consistent environment. And moving libpci to /lib(64) has the benefit
 of making lspci half-functional if /usr is broken (pci.ids are still
 in /usr/share/hwdata), while moving lspci to /usr/(s)bin puts it in
 the same prefix as libpci.

 Personally, I think if some people need to have lspci working without
 /usr, then that should probably weigh heavier than lspci having the
 same prefix as libpci.


 Or differently: Everything in /bin and /sbin, must only be
 dynamically linked against libraries in /lib|/lib64. The fact lspci
 is linked against /usr/{lib|lib64}/libpci.so.X is a defect.

 I agree.

 That sounds pretty logical, indeed. But I think it might be a long
 road to get there. I did a quick check for binaries in /sbin and /bin
 that are directly linked to libs in /usr. There's a good lot more: my
 F12 system gives these binaries in /sbin:
 - umount-devkit
 - rpcbind
 - iw
 - nash
 - iptables-multi
 - rpc.statd
 - lspci
 - plymouthd
 - sulogin
 - mount.nfs
 - dhcp6c
 - crda
 - unix_update
 - setpci
 - umount.hal
 - ip6tables-multi
 - unix_chkpwd
 - mkfs.ntfs

 An these in /bin:
 - rpm
 - mailx
 - login


This all seems very subjective. Different people will have different
thoughts on what is essential for recovery in the situation where
/usr can't be mounted. Many of these arguments are moot anyway,
because nowadays if as system gets hosed to the extent that /usr can't
be mounted, the most effective way to recover is to boot the machine
in question with a live CD or USB and have the full range of tools
accesible to diagnose the problem.
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Re: Moving lspci and setpci from /sbin to /usr/sbin?

2010-01-29 Thread Adam Williamson
On Fri, 2010-01-29 at 14:57 +0200, Sergey Rudchenko wrote:
 On 1/29/2010 2:38 PM, Hans Ulrich Niedermann wrote:
  On Fri, 29 Jan 2010 09:32:15 +0100
  Ralf Corsepiusrc040...@freenet.de  wrote:
 
 
  Presuming /sbin/lspci is supposed to work without having /usr/
  mounted, then libpci.so.X needs to reside in /lib|/lib64.
 
  Or differently: Everything in /bin and /sbin, must only be
  dynamically linked against libraries in /lib|/lib64. The fact lspci
  is linked against /usr/{lib|lib64}/libpci.so.X is a defect.
   
  I agree.
 
  For the record, the same issue applies to /sbin/lsusb
  and /usr/lib/libusb-0.1.so.4.
 
  I have not checked whether there are other cases.
 
 
 What if we link the lspci and lsusb as static binaries? That would allow 
 us not to break the filesystem architecture and have usable tools.

There's no need for that. Binaries in /bin or /sbin should have their
libraries in /lib rather than /usr/lib . This is perfectly OK under FHS.
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Re: Moving lspci and setpci from /sbin to /usr/sbin?

2010-01-28 Thread Garrett Holmstrom
On Thu, Jan 28, 2010 at 11:35 PM, Ralf Corsepius rc040...@freenet.de wrote:
 Consider taking out /usr from your fstab and to check how far you can get.
 With /sbin/lspci you will be able to check your pci setup, with
 /usr/sbin/lspci, you wouldn't.

False.  /sbin/lspci doesn't work without libpci.so, which is in
/usr/lib.  Thus /sbin/lspci will fail to load in the absence of /usr.
This is exactly the same as the case you describe for /bin/rpm and
/sbin/setpci.

Maybe I'm just misinterpreting your post...

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Moving lspci and setpci from /sbin to /usr/sbin?

2010-01-27 Thread Michal Hlavinka
Hi all,

in Fedora we have pciutils binaries (lspci and setpci) in /sbin, both of them 
use pciutils-libs (/usr/lib/...) and afaik this is how it works for ages. 
I'd like to move them from /sbin to /usr/sbin to have them with the same prefix 
as library has. Do you think it can break anything?

A few facts:
1)library is already in /usr/lib and lspci/setpci won't work without it
2)pci.ids (lives in hwdata package) is in /usr/share/hwdata
3)yum remove pciutils will remove only system-config-{firewall,network} as 
dependencies

Do you think moving this is a bad idea? I think it should not break anything, 
only problem can be with separate /usr partition but because of library in 
/usr it would be already broken and I've not seen any complain about it ever.

If there are no complains, I'll move it next week (in rawhide only).

Cheers,
Michal Hlavinka

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Re: Moving lspci and setpci from /sbin to /usr/sbin?

2010-01-27 Thread Maxim Burgerhout
Hi Michal,

A few thoughts on this:

- on RHEL boxes, the dependency on libpci does not exist and lspci is
in /sbin. Therefore, on RHEL boxes, lspci will still work with a
broken /usr partition. I haven't heard of anyone absolutely needing
lspci on a system with a broken /usr partition, but it *is* possible
to use it. Moving it also breaks a pretty long tradition, but that
should matter too much. I actually prefer lspci to be in my path as a
normal user.

- it would be consistent if lsusb would make the same move to
/usr/sbin, if lspci goes that way.

- I noticed Debian puts lspci in /usr/bin. I'm curious about the
reason lspci is to remain in a sbin directory if it's being moved
anyway.

I haven't been involved in Fedora for that long, but I'd like to
participate in this discussion a bit, if that's ok :-)

Regards,

Maxim Burgerhout
ma...@wzzrd.com

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On Wed, Jan 27, 2010 at 14:17, Michal Hlavinka mhlav...@redhat.com wrote:
 Hi all,

 in Fedora we have pciutils binaries (lspci and setpci) in /sbin, both of them
 use pciutils-libs (/usr/lib/...) and afaik this is how it works for ages.
 I'd like to move them from /sbin to /usr/sbin to have them with the same 
 prefix
 as library has. Do you think it can break anything?

 A few facts:
 1)library is already in /usr/lib and lspci/setpci won't work without it
 2)pci.ids (lives in hwdata package) is in /usr/share/hwdata
 3)yum remove pciutils will remove only system-config-{firewall,network} as
 dependencies

 Do you think moving this is a bad idea? I think it should not break anything,
 only problem can be with separate /usr partition but because of library in
 /usr it would be already broken and I've not seen any complain about it ever.

 If there are no complains, I'll move it next week (in rawhide only).

 Cheers,
 Michal Hlavinka

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Re: Moving lspci and setpci from /sbin to /usr/sbin?

2010-01-27 Thread Michal Hlavinka
On Wednesday 27 January 2010 14:51:15 Maxim Burgerhout wrote:
 Hi Michal,
 
 A few thoughts on this:
 
 - on RHEL boxes, the dependency on libpci does not exist and lspci is
 in /sbin. Therefore, on RHEL boxes, lspci will still work with a
 broken /usr partition. I haven't heard of anyone absolutely needing
 lspci on a system with a broken /usr partition, but it *is* possible
 to use it. Moving it also breaks a pretty long tradition, but that
 should matter too much. I actually prefer lspci to be in my path as a
 normal user.

well, on RHEL5 there is no pciutils-libs, so it does not depend on any library 
in /usr/lib, but it depends at least on /usr/share/hwdata/pci.ids and without 
it lspci is not that useful

 
 - it would be consistent if lsusb would make the same move to
 /usr/sbin, if lspci goes that way.

on the other hand lsusb requires library from /usr/lib (on RHEL5) so it is in 
/sbin but won't work without mounted /usr (and there are also usb.ids)

 
 - I noticed Debian puts lspci in /usr/bin. I'm curious about the
 reason lspci is to remain in a sbin directory if it's being moved
 anyway.

good question

 I haven't been involved in Fedora for that long, but I'd like to
 participate in this discussion a bit, if that's ok :-)
 
 Regards,
 
 Maxim Burgerhout
 ma...@wzzrd.com
 
 GPG Fingerprint
 EB11 5E56 E648 9D99 E8EF 05FB C513 6FD4 1302 B48A
 
 On Wed, Jan 27, 2010 at 14:17, Michal Hlavinka mhlav...@redhat.com wrote:
  Hi all,
  
  in Fedora we have pciutils binaries (lspci and setpci) in /sbin, both of
  them use pciutils-libs (/usr/lib/...) and afaik this is how it works for
  ages. I'd like to move them from /sbin to /usr/sbin to have them with
  the same prefix as library has. Do you think it can break anything?
  
  A few facts:
  1)library is already in /usr/lib and lspci/setpci won't work without it
  2)pci.ids (lives in hwdata package) is in /usr/share/hwdata
  3)yum remove pciutils will remove only system-config-{firewall,network}
  as dependencies
  
  Do you think moving this is a bad idea? I think it should not break
  anything, only problem can be with separate /usr partition but because
  of library in /usr it would be already broken and I've not seen any
  complain about it ever.
  
  If there are no complains, I'll move it next week (in rawhide only).
  
  Cheers,
  Michal Hlavinka
  
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Re: Moving lspci and setpci from /sbin to /usr/sbin?

2010-01-27 Thread Bill Nottingham
Michal Hlavinka (mhlav...@redhat.com) said: 
 Do you think moving this is a bad idea? I think it should not break anything, 
 only problem can be with separate /usr partition but because of library in 
 /usr it would be already broken and I've not seen any complain about it ever.

Furthermore, most all of the information provided by lspci in a no-/usr
recovery situation can be found in /sys if absolutely necessary.

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Re: Moving lspci and setpci from /sbin to /usr/sbin?

2010-01-27 Thread Matthew Miller
On Wed, Jan 27, 2010 at 02:51:15PM +0100, Maxim Burgerhout wrote:
 - I noticed Debian puts lspci in /usr/bin. I'm curious about the
 reason lspci is to remain in a sbin directory if it's being moved
 anyway.

+1, please.

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