Re: Rawhide Repo needs downgradeable packages

2020-12-15 Thread Vít Ondruch 


Dne 09. 12. 20 v 0:34 Kevin Kofler via devel napsal(a):


That said, will "dnf downgrade" offer you cached versions that are no longer
in the repos? Last I checked, it only offered me whatever was still in the
repos, and I had to dig up the cached RPMs manually.



Yes, right, that is why there was the other part of the email:

Now if there was some dnf plugin, which would make repository from the 
cache, that would be super helpful.



Vít




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Re: Rawhide Repo needs downgradeable packages

2020-12-09 Thread Kevin Kofler via devel 
Marius Schwarz wrote:
> it will eat disk space. If you have 0ad laying around in 3 different
> version, that's 1 GB each.

Sure, but that is usually not the scarce resource. And if you need the disk 
space, you can always clear the cache manually. Deleting data should not be 
the default action.

> Ohh.. you meant: default for rawhide..

No, I did not. I explicitly wrote: "Even for stable releases".

Kevin Kofler
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Re: Rawhide Repo needs downgradeable packages

2020-12-09 Thread Marius Schwarz 

Am 09.12.20 um 00:34 schrieb Kevin Kofler via devel:

Vít Ondruch wrote:

As a workaround, if you use `keepcache=True` in dnf.conf, you'd have
copies of everything you previously installed on your system.

I still don't understand why this is not the default. Even for stable
releases, because without it, you can easily obtain only the ancient GA
version of the package, which is usually not what you want to downgrade to.
it will eat disk space. If you have 0ad laying around in 3 different 
version, that's 1 GB each.


Ohh.. you meant: default for rawhide.. True. reasonably it should be the 
default.


best regards,
Marius Schwarz
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Re: Rawhide Repo needs downgradeable packages

2020-12-08 Thread James Cassell 

On Tue, Dec 8, 2020, at 6:34 PM, Kevin Kofler via devel wrote:
> Vít Ondruch wrote:
> > As a workaround, if you use `keepcache=True` in dnf.conf, you'd have
> > copies of everything you previously installed on your system.
> 
> I still don't understand why this is not the default. Even for stable 
> releases, because without it, you can easily obtain only the ancient GA 
> version of the package, which is usually not what you want to downgrade to.
> 
> That said, will "dnf downgrade" offer you cached versions that are no longer 
> in the repos? Last I checked, it only offered me whatever was still in the 
> repos, and I had to dig up the cached RPMs manually.
> 

Check out the fedora-repos-archive package. You'll love it! (I certainly do!)

V/r,
James Cassell
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Re: Rawhide Repo needs downgradeable packages

2020-12-08 Thread Kevin Kofler via devel 
Vít Ondruch wrote:
> As a workaround, if you use `keepcache=True` in dnf.conf, you'd have
> copies of everything you previously installed on your system.

I still don't understand why this is not the default. Even for stable 
releases, because without it, you can easily obtain only the ancient GA 
version of the package, which is usually not what you want to downgrade to.

That said, will "dnf downgrade" offer you cached versions that are no longer 
in the repos? Last I checked, it only offered me whatever was still in the 
repos, and I had to dig up the cached RPMs manually.

Kevin Kofler
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Re: Rawhide Repo needs downgradeable packages

2020-12-08 Thread Colin Walters 


On Mon, Dec 7, 2020, at 11:45 AM, Fabio Valentini wrote:
> 
> I'm wondering, wouldn't this scenario be a prime application of an
> OSTree based system like Silverblue?

...

On Mon, Dec 7, 2020, at 12:28 PM, Martin Kolman wrote:

> With OSTree one could easily have multiple update states available (sable, 
> cutting edge, last 3 updates, etc.) 

Hi Fabio, Martin:

Thanks so much for this.  I actually had a much longer reply to Adam's mail 
that I'd started to write around how *exactly this* user problem with versions 
and downgrades is what I was talking about in
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org/message/QEAKRLJTCNOFOCILDSLKWYHKTHVNRSUX/
And it's why in FCOS we have a unified stream of versions and images, 
downgrading or picking an explicit version is a first class supported operation 
client side too, etc.  And on top of what you both mentioned, particularly 
relevant for IoT and phones, it's also a 1st class operation to e.g. build 
custom images/ostree-commits on a separate aarch64 server for example, avoiding 
doing expensive operations on-device.

But then I decided it was just more useful to write code and deleted the draft.

Honestly sometimes I hit low points of energy and motivation trying to push 
through fundamental change against the forces of inertia.  Your replies 
recharged that battery.  Thank you so much for that!
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Re: Rawhide Repo needs downgradeable packages

2020-12-07 Thread Marius Schwarz 

Am 07.12.20 um 18:28 schrieb Martin Kolman:

Nice, very good progress! :)

I really need to try the latest Fedora image on my Pinephone when I 
have some time. :)
Read the issue tracker on github before you update... you will be 
surprised ;)


Best regards,
Marius Schwarz
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Re: Rawhide Repo needs downgradeable packages

2020-12-07 Thread Martin Kolman 
On Fri, 2020-12-04 at 16:11 +0100, Marius Schwarz wrote:
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> 
> 
> as you may have heared, Fedora is now running on Pinephone and other
> devices, that need bleeding edge versions to function.
Are bleeding edge of all packages needed ? If not I wonder if just budiling 
what needs to be bleeding edge in a COPR
overlay on top of a stable release would work. This would give you a stable 
base to work on and a lot of control over
what goes on top of it, including downgrading packages and applying custom 
not-yet-upstream patches.
You could of course at the same time make sure all the bits and pieces land in 
Rawhide, so that when you switch your
COPR overlay baseline to the next Fedora stable release, less custom package 
versions are needed. Rinse and repeat until
no overlay packages are needed. :)
> 
> 
> Status of Fedora Pine as of 15:15 CET
> 
> 
> 
> Cams now working, but app needs rework
> 
> Mobile INET working
> 
> WIFI working
> 
> Touch working
> 
> SMS working
> 
> GPS working
> 
> Calls partly, "calls app" does not connect to pulseaudio. 
> 
> Headphones ( sort of )
> 
> Mali400 GPU support working ( MPV rulez )
> 
> 
> 
> and with Gnome(38) instead of Phosh..  no window problems! Big
> Thanks to nikhiljha and his copr repo. 
Nice, very good progress! :)
I really need to try the latest Fedora image on my Pinephone when I have some 
time. :)
> 
> 
> O== my request
> 
> 
> 
> In the last 3 days alone several updates ( i.e. bind-libs,
> gnome-shell 40~alpha ) caused a lot of bugs and needed to be
> downgraded directly from koji, 
> 
> by first finding & downloading them with wget ( because of the
> slow wifi and dependency checks, direct http links work ofcourse ),
> and later downgraded with 
> 
> dnf, which is so to speak, a pain in the ass. Of course, the best
> way to handle it would be, if the os compenents came from stable
> repos, so that these problems do not happen. But as i said, bleeding
> edge is needed atm. 
> 
> 
> 
> Is it possible to keep at least the last version of a package around
> in rawhide repo, to make dnf downgrade work? That would ease a lot
> of this pain. 
> 
> 
> 
> I know that there is a native koji tool to handle rawhide, but i
> must say, that won't work in most cases. Let me explain:
> 
> 
> 
> Pine has announced to open stores in the US and Canada, because of
> the huge amount of requests for a pinephone. As it looks, this
> phone, as cheap as it compontants are, fills a gap of some kind.
> Therefor we will have much more user using it, and (i hope i can
> help with it) will use Fedora with Gnome-Shell. 
> 
> Phosh is more like Android, it has it charm, but tbh I, and people I
> showned it to,  love they way gnome-shell handles stuff. 
> 
> 
> 
> We "may" get them to downgrade stuff with dnf, but that needs to be
> as simple as it could. 
> 
> 
> 
> best regards,
> 
> Marius Schwarz
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   
> 
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Re: Rawhide Repo needs downgradeable packages

2020-12-07 Thread Martin Kolman 
On Mon, 2020-12-07 at 17:45 +0100, Fabio Valentini wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 4, 2020 at 4:12 PM Marius Schwarz  wrote:
> > 
> > Hi,
> > 
> > as you may have heared, Fedora is now running on Pinephone and other 
> > devices, that need bleeding edge versions to
> > function.
> > 
> > Status of Fedora Pine as of 15:15 CET
> > 
> > Cams now working, but app needs rework
> > Mobile INET working
> > WIFI working
> > Touch working
> > SMS working
> > GPS working
> > Calls partly, "calls app" does not connect to pulseaudio.
> > Headphones ( sort of )
> > Mali400 GPU support working ( MPV rulez )
> > 
> > and with Gnome(38) instead of Phosh..  no window problems! Big Thanks to 
> > nikhiljha and his copr repo.
> > 
> > O== my request
> > 
> > In the last 3 days alone several updates ( i.e. bind-libs, gnome-shell 
> > 40~alpha ) caused a lot of bugs and needed to
> > be downgraded directly from koji,
> > by first finding & downloading them with wget ( because of the slow wifi 
> > and dependency checks, direct http links
> > work ofcourse ), and later downgraded with
> > dnf, which is so to speak, a pain in the ass. Of course, the best way to 
> > handle it would be, if the os compenents
> > came from stable repos, so that these problems do not happen. But as i 
> > said, bleeding edge is needed atm.
> > 
> > Is it possible to keep at least the last version of a package around in 
> > rawhide repo, to make dnf downgrade work?
> > That would ease a lot of this pain.
> > 
> > I know that there is a native koji tool to handle rawhide, but i must say, 
> > that won't work in most cases. Let me
> > explain:
> > 
> > Pine has announced to open stores in the US and Canada, because of the huge 
> > amount of requests for a pinephone. As
> > it looks, this phone, as cheap as it compontants are, fills a gap of some 
> > kind. Therefor we will have much more user
> > using it, and (i hope i can help with it) will use Fedora with Gnome-Shell.
> > Phosh is more like Android, it has it charm, but tbh I, and people I 
> > showned it to,  love they way gnome-shell
> > handles stuff.
> > 
> > We "may" get them to downgrade stuff with dnf, but that needs to be as 
> > simple as it could.
> 
> I'm wondering, wouldn't this scenario be a prime application of an
> OSTree based system like Silverblue?
> It would give you exactly what you want, being able to revert to the
> previous (working) version if the new one breaks something. Even
> Android does something like this nowadays.
Yeah, it really seems to me that OSTree managed system with apps in Flatpaks on 
top could
work very well on an Linux mobile device. 

It could actually be much better than what's used in Android at the moment as 
I'm not sure they really do diff
updates or how very well & you usually replace one system image by another one. 
So there is no way easy way to
revert the update & the device might need a reflash if the update process is 
interrupted while the new system image is
being created (due to a crash or running out of battery).

With OSTree one could easily have multiple update states available (sable, 
cutting edge, last 3 updates, etc.) and
as the new OSTree is created "in the background" without destroiong the current 
one/s it would be really hard to get the
device into such a bad state with OSTree to need a reflash.

> 
> Fabio
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Re: Rawhide Repo needs downgradeable packages

2020-12-07 Thread Fabio Valentini 
On Fri, Dec 4, 2020 at 4:12 PM Marius Schwarz  wrote:
>
>
> Hi,
>
> as you may have heared, Fedora is now running on Pinephone and other devices, 
> that need bleeding edge versions to function.
>
> Status of Fedora Pine as of 15:15 CET
>
> Cams now working, but app needs rework
> Mobile INET working
> WIFI working
> Touch working
> SMS working
> GPS working
> Calls partly, "calls app" does not connect to pulseaudio.
> Headphones ( sort of )
> Mali400 GPU support working ( MPV rulez )
>
> and with Gnome(38) instead of Phosh..  no window problems! Big Thanks to 
> nikhiljha and his copr repo.
>
> O== my request
>
> In the last 3 days alone several updates ( i.e. bind-libs, gnome-shell 
> 40~alpha ) caused a lot of bugs and needed to be downgraded directly from 
> koji,
> by first finding & downloading them with wget ( because of the slow wifi and 
> dependency checks, direct http links work ofcourse ), and later downgraded 
> with
> dnf, which is so to speak, a pain in the ass. Of course, the best way to 
> handle it would be, if the os compenents came from stable repos, so that 
> these problems do not happen. But as i said, bleeding edge is needed atm.
>
> Is it possible to keep at least the last version of a package around in 
> rawhide repo, to make dnf downgrade work? That would ease a lot of this pain.
>
> I know that there is a native koji tool to handle rawhide, but i must say, 
> that won't work in most cases. Let me explain:
>
> Pine has announced to open stores in the US and Canada, because of the huge 
> amount of requests for a pinephone. As it looks, this phone, as cheap as it 
> compontants are, fills a gap of some kind. Therefor we will have much more 
> user using it, and (i hope i can help with it) will use Fedora with 
> Gnome-Shell.
> Phosh is more like Android, it has it charm, but tbh I, and people I showned 
> it to,  love they way gnome-shell handles stuff.
>
> We "may" get them to downgrade stuff with dnf, but that needs to be as simple 
> as it could.

I'm wondering, wouldn't this scenario be a prime application of an
OSTree based system like Silverblue?
It would give you exactly what you want, being able to revert to the
previous (working) version if the new one breaks something. Even
Android does something like this nowadays.

Fabio
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Re: Rawhide Repo needs downgradeable packages

2020-12-04 Thread Kevin Fenzi 
On Fri, Dec 04, 2020 at 04:11:05PM +0100, Marius Schwarz wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> as you may have heared, Fedora is now running on Pinephone and other
> devices, that need bleeding edge versions to function.
> 
> Status of Fedora Pine as of 15:15 CET
> 
> Cams now working, but app needs rework
> Mobile INET working
> WIFI working
> Touch working
> SMS working
> GPS working
> Calls partly, "calls app" does not connect to pulseaudio.
> Headphones ( sort of )
> Mali400 GPU support working ( MPV rulez )

Do note that this is a Fedora remix right? Since it's using a non fedora
kernel + packages not in fedora. :) 

But we will get to a fedora spin someday. 

> 
> and with Gnome(38) instead of Phosh..  no window problems! Big Thanks to
> nikhiljha and his copr repo.
> 
> O== my request
> 
> In the last 3 days alone several updates ( i.e. bind-libs, gnome-shell
> 40~alpha ) caused a lot of bugs and needed to be downgraded directly from
> koji,
> by first finding & downloading them with wget ( because of the slow wifi and
> dependency checks, direct http links work ofcourse ), and later downgraded
> with
> dnf, which is so to speak, a pain in the ass. Of course, the best way to
> handle it would be, if the os compenents came from stable repos, so that
> these problems do not happen. But as i said, bleeding edge is needed atm.
> 
> Is it possible to keep at least the last version of a package around in
> rawhide repo, to make dnf downgrade work? That would ease a lot of this
> pain.

This has been a long time request. It's been shot down in the past due
to the massive size increase (keeping 2x as many packages), and the
issue of keeping around old packages that may have security issues. 

The last time this came up I think someone suggested perhaps that we
keep old updates only for like a week, then drop them. That would give
most people who update frequently a downgrade for a week, then (we hope)
the thing is pretty stable. 

Of course Adam is right that we probibly don't want to spend too much
time on this. I might file a pungi RFR on it tho.

> I know that there is a native koji tool to handle rawhide, but i must say,
> that won't work in most cases. Let me explain:
> 
> Pine has announced to open stores in the US and Canada, because of the huge
> amount of requests for a pinephone. As it looks, this phone, as cheap as it
> compontants are, fills a gap of some kind. Therefor we will have much more
> user using it, and (i hope i can help with it) will use Fedora with
> Gnome-Shell.
> Phosh is more like Android, it has it charm, but tbh I, and people I showned
> it to,  love they way gnome-shell handles stuff.
> 
> We "may" get them to downgrade stuff with dnf, but that needs to be as
> simple as it could.

Hopefully before too long we can get things working with 100% fedora and
then move to stable releases. 

kevin


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Re: Rawhide Repo needs downgradeable packages

2020-12-04 Thread Marius Schwarz 

Am 04.12.20 um 17:34 schrieb Adam Williamson:

I don't think there's an easy way to do this, because of how we build
stuff. The Rawhide and Branched trees are rsynced over top of the
previous content from the most recent successful compose, with metadata
pre-built at the compose level. The old thing is thrown away and
replaced with the new thing, which is a very simple process.



keeping the old packages locally as Vít Ondruch suggested, will fix this 
problem.


Best regards,
Marius
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Re: Rawhide Repo needs downgradeable packages

2020-12-04 Thread Marius Schwarz 

Am 04.12.20 um 16:37 schrieb Vít Ondruch:
As a workaround, if you use `keepcache=True` in dnf.conf, you'd have 
copies of everything you previously installed on your system.

Thats even better :) thx, didn't know this.

best regards,
Marius
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Re: Rawhide Repo needs downgradeable packages

2020-12-04 Thread Adam Williamson 
On Fri, 2020-12-04 at 16:11 +0100, Marius Schwarz wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> as you may have heared, Fedora is now running on Pinephone and other 
> devices, that need bleeding edge versions to function.
> 
> Status of Fedora Pine as of 15:15 CET
> 
> Cams now working, but app needs rework
> Mobile INET working
> WIFI working
> Touch working
> SMS working
> GPS working
> Calls partly, "calls app" does not connect to pulseaudio.
> Headphones ( sort of )
> Mali400 GPU support working ( MPV rulez )
> 
> and with Gnome(38) instead of Phosh..  no window problems! Big Thanks to 
> nikhiljha and his copr repo.
> 
> O== my request
> 
> In the last 3 days alone several updates ( i.e. bind-libs, gnome-shell 
> 40~alpha ) caused a lot of bugs and needed to be downgraded directly 
> from koji,
> by first finding & downloading them with wget ( because of the slow wifi 
> and dependency checks, direct http links work ofcourse ), and later 
> downgraded with
> dnf, which is so to speak, a pain in the ass. Of course, the best way to 
> handle it would be, if the os compenents came from stable repos, so that 
> these problems do not happen. But as i said, bleeding edge is needed atm.
> 
> Is it possible to keep at least the last version of a package around in 
> rawhide repo, to make dnf downgrade work? That would ease a lot of this 
> pain.
> 
> I know that there is a native koji tool to handle rawhide, but i must 
> say, that won't work in most cases. Let me explain:
> 
> Pine has announced to open stores in the US and Canada, because of the 
> huge amount of requests for a pinephone. As it looks, this phone, as 
> cheap as it compontants are, fills a gap of some kind. Therefor we will 
> have much more user using it, and (i hope i can help with it) will use 
> Fedora with Gnome-Shell.
> Phosh is more like Android, it has it charm, but tbh I, and people I 
> showned it to,  love they way gnome-shell handles stuff.
> 
> We "may" get them to downgrade stuff with dnf, but that needs to be as 
> simple as it could.

I don't think there's an easy way to do this, because of how we build
stuff. The Rawhide and Branched trees are rsynced over top of the
previous content from the most recent successful compose, with metadata
pre-built at the compose level. The old thing is thrown away and
replaced with the new thing, which is a very simple process.

If you want to keep old stuff around it suddenly gets a ton more
complex, because now you have to keep track of what is "old stuff" and
when to get rid of it, and you have to add a step to the process that
(re-)generates the repo metadata after the new stuff has been added to
the old stuff.

Limited downgrading possibilities exist for stable releases because we
freeze those and add updates repos alongside the frozen stable release,
but that's not how we build development releases.

I don't really think it makes sense to do a ton of engineering to
support an explicitly non-recommended use case. Rawhide is not for
running on your phone.

Having said that, there are more efficient ways to do what you're
doing. You don't need to download with wget; you can use the 'koji' CLI
tool directly (koji download-build --arch=XX --arch=noarch NVR). You
can also find the older Rawhide content in older composes, at
https://kojipkgs.fedoraproject.org/compose/rawhide/ - you can configure
the Everything repo from any of those as a local repo and its content
will be available for downgrading. Of course, that server doesn't
expect heavy traffic, so if lots of pinephone people start trying to do
it at once, it might start choking.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA
IRC: adamw | Twitter: adamw_ha
https://www.happyassassin.net


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Re: Rawhide Repo needs downgradeable packages

2020-12-04 Thread Vít Ondruch 

I definitely support this.

As a workaround, if you use `keepcache=True` in dnf.conf, you'd have 
copies of everything you previously installed on your system.


Now if there was some dnf plugin, which would make repository from the 
cache, that would be super helpful. I have never found time to 
materialize this :/



Vít


Dne 04. 12. 20 v 16:11 Marius Schwarz napsal(a):


Hi,

as you may have heared, Fedora is now running on Pinephone and other 
devices, that need bleeding edge versions to function.


Status of Fedora Pine as of 15:15 CET

Cams now working, but app needs rework
Mobile INET working
WIFI working
Touch working
SMS working
GPS working
Calls partly, "calls app" does not connect to pulseaudio.
Headphones ( sort of )
Mali400 GPU support working ( MPV rulez )

and with Gnome(38) instead of Phosh..  no window problems! Big Thanks 
to nikhiljha and his copr repo.


O== my request

In the last 3 days alone several updates ( i.e. bind-libs, gnome-shell 
40~alpha ) caused a lot of bugs and needed to be downgraded directly 
from koji,
by first finding & downloading them with wget ( because of the slow 
wifi and dependency checks, direct http links work ofcourse ), and 
later downgraded with
dnf, which is so to speak, a pain in the ass. Of course, the best way 
to handle it would be, if the os compenents came from stable repos, so 
that these problems do not happen. But as i said, bleeding edge is 
needed atm.


Is it possible to keep at least the last version of a package around 
in rawhide repo, to make dnf downgrade work? That would ease a lot of 
this pain.


I know that there is a native koji tool to handle rawhide, but i must 
say, that won't work in most cases. Let me explain:


Pine has announced to open stores in the US and Canada, because of the 
huge amount of requests for a pinephone. As it looks, this phone, as 
cheap as it compontants are, fills a gap of some kind. Therefor we 
will have much more user using it, and (i hope i can help with it) 
will use Fedora with Gnome-Shell.
Phosh is more like Android, it has it charm, but tbh I, and people I 
showned it to,  love they way gnome-shell handles stuff.


We "may" get them to downgrade stuff with dnf, but that needs to be as 
simple as it could.


best regards,
Marius Schwarz



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Rawhide Repo needs downgradeable packages

2020-12-04 Thread Marius Schwarz 


Hi,

as you may have heared, Fedora is now running on Pinephone and other 
devices, that need bleeding edge versions to function.


Status of Fedora Pine as of 15:15 CET

Cams now working, but app needs rework
Mobile INET working
WIFI working
Touch working
SMS working
GPS working
Calls partly, "calls app" does not connect to pulseaudio.
Headphones ( sort of )
Mali400 GPU support working ( MPV rulez )

and with Gnome(38) instead of Phosh..  no window problems! Big Thanks to 
nikhiljha and his copr repo.


O== my request

In the last 3 days alone several updates ( i.e. bind-libs, gnome-shell 
40~alpha ) caused a lot of bugs and needed to be downgraded directly 
from koji,
by first finding & downloading them with wget ( because of the slow wifi 
and dependency checks, direct http links work ofcourse ), and later 
downgraded with
dnf, which is so to speak, a pain in the ass. Of course, the best way to 
handle it would be, if the os compenents came from stable repos, so that 
these problems do not happen. But as i said, bleeding edge is needed atm.


Is it possible to keep at least the last version of a package around in 
rawhide repo, to make dnf downgrade work? That would ease a lot of this 
pain.


I know that there is a native koji tool to handle rawhide, but i must 
say, that won't work in most cases. Let me explain:


Pine has announced to open stores in the US and Canada, because of the 
huge amount of requests for a pinephone. As it looks, this phone, as 
cheap as it compontants are, fills a gap of some kind. Therefor we will 
have much more user using it, and (i hope i can help with it) will use 
Fedora with Gnome-Shell.
Phosh is more like Android, it has it charm, but tbh I, and people I 
showned it to,  love they way gnome-shell handles stuff.


We "may" get them to downgrade stuff with dnf, but that needs to be as 
simple as it could.


best regards,
Marius Schwarz


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