Re: Does anybody care about gettext?

[Dridi Boukelmoune]

On Sat, Aug 10, 2019 at 10:28 PM Kevin Kofler  wrote:
>
> Miro Hrončok wrote:
> > Because if we don't, people just gonna ignore FTBFS forever.
>
> And this would be a problem why exactly?
>
> Packages built for older Fedora releases tend to run on newer Fedora
> releases just fine. If the package:
> * has no broken dependencies, and
> * is not reported as completely broken in Bugzilla,
> it should be assumed to be working by default.
>
> If you encounter a package that does not actually work, it is your job as a
> user to report it. This can happen independently of whether the package
> still compiles or not. It can even still be broken after a successful
> rebuild.
>
> So why are we wasting packagers' time on fixing FTBFS issues (which are
> typically NOT caused by their package, but by changes in dependencies such
> as your python-unversioned-command change, or such as yet another
> incompatible change in GCC for the sake of compliance with some obscure
> subparagraph of a language standard, etc.) when not actually needed? I
> actually NEED to fix the FTBFS if the package has broken dependencies or if
> I need to make some other change to it. Otherwise, the FTBFS fix is just
> churn that Fedora forces me to waste my time on.

Hi,

I understand where you are coming from, but I still disagree. I think
there has been an unfair hostility towards Miro on this topic.

Your package suddenly FTBFS because of dependencies or system-wide
changes but the latest package build is still functional? I agree that
there is no urgency to fix this, but I disagree that status quo is
fine X releases later.

For starters may miss out on system wide changes (and whether someone
agrees with proposed changes is not the question) and in the case you
made about bug reports that mandate action from the maintainer, not
taking care of FTBFS timely means that once shit hits the fan you have
to both solve the FTBFS situation and the user-facing bug report.

So yes, it sucks when someone's package fails because someone else
screwed up by not coordinating an soname bump or whatever, but it
doesn't mean that we can keep the latest successful build around and
let the source repository bit-rot forever because there are no bug
reports.

Now there's certainly room for improvement, but I don't have a
solution to offer and hammering Miro because he's been (very) active
lately retiring FTBFS or orphan packages (as per the normal process)
is helping. Here we had an acknowledgement from a couple maintainers
and someone who stepped in to help, a very positive outcome.

Dridi
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Re: Does anybody care about gettext?

[Kevin Kofler]

Miro Hrončok wrote:
> Because if we don't, people just gonna ignore FTBFS forever.

And this would be a problem why exactly?

Packages built for older Fedora releases tend to run on newer Fedora 
releases just fine. If the package:
* has no broken dependencies, and
* is not reported as completely broken in Bugzilla,
it should be assumed to be working by default.

If you encounter a package that does not actually work, it is your job as a 
user to report it. This can happen independently of whether the package 
still compiles or not. It can even still be broken after a successful 
rebuild.

So why are we wasting packagers' time on fixing FTBFS issues (which are 
typically NOT caused by their package, but by changes in dependencies such 
as your python-unversioned-command change, or such as yet another 
incompatible change in GCC for the sake of compliance with some obscure 
subparagraph of a language standard, etc.) when not actually needed? I 
actually NEED to fix the FTBFS if the package has broken dependencies or if 
I need to make some other change to it. Otherwise, the FTBFS fix is just 
churn that Fedora forces me to waste my time on.

Kevin Kofler
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Re: Does anybody care about gettext?

[Kevin Fenzi]

On 8/10/19 12:48 PM, Björn Persson wrote:
> Kevin Fenzi wrote:
>> On 8/10/19 4:12 AM, Björn Persson wrote:
>>> Rafal Luzynski wrote:  
 9.08.2019 22:10 Jerry James  wrote:  
> Source: https://ftp.gnu.org/pub/gnu/gettext/%{name}-%{version}.tar.xz

 Do we need to change ftp to https?  
>>>
>>> That's the wrong question to ask. The right question is: What reason is
>>> there to choose an insecure protocol when HTTPS is available?  
>>
>> I'm confused by this... https is already being used, it is just the
>> hostname that is 'ftp'.
> 
> When I posted, gettext.spec in the master branch still said:
> 
> Source: ftp://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/gettext/%{name}-%{tarversion}.tar.xz

Alright, I was going from the quoted text.

> The spec that Jerry James posted changed the URI scheme to https, which
> is the right thing to do. That change is now also in Git.

Sure, 100% agree.

kevin




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Re: Does anybody care about gettext?

[Björn Persson]

Kevin Fenzi wrote:
> On 8/10/19 4:12 AM, Björn Persson wrote:
> > Rafal Luzynski wrote:  
> >> 9.08.2019 22:10 Jerry James  wrote:  
> >>> Source: https://ftp.gnu.org/pub/gnu/gettext/%{name}-%{version}.tar.xz
> >>
> >> Do we need to change ftp to https?  
> > 
> > That's the wrong question to ask. The right question is: What reason is
> > there to choose an insecure protocol when HTTPS is available?  
> 
> I'm confused by this... https is already being used, it is just the
> hostname that is 'ftp'.

When I posted, gettext.spec in the master branch still said:

Source: ftp://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/gettext/%{name}-%{tarversion}.tar.xz

The spec that Jerry James posted changed the URI scheme to https, which
is the right thing to do. That change is now also in Git.

The URL field should also be changed by the way. www.gnu.org redirects
HTTP requests to HTTPS, but there is no reason to give an attacker the
chance to intercept the HTTP request and redirect you to a malicious
server instead.

Björn Persson


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Re: Does anybody care about gettext?

[Nico Kadel-Garcia]

On Sat, Aug 10, 2019 at 12:48 PM Kevin Fenzi  wrote:
>
> On 8/10/19 4:12 AM, Björn Persson wrote:
> > Rafal Luzynski wrote:
> >> 9.08.2019 22:10 Jerry James  wrote:
> >>> Source: https://ftp.gnu.org/pub/gnu/gettext/%{name}-%{version}.tar.xz
> >>
> >> Do we need to change ftp to https?
> >
> > That's the wrong question to ask. The right question is: What reason is
> > there to choose an insecure protocol when HTTPS is available?
>
> I'm confused by this... https is already being used, it is just the
> hostname that is 'ftp'. So, I would see no reason to change this, but I
> suppose you could ask upstream to rename the host to avoid confusion...
>
> kevin

The site still supports FTP, which I suspect is why they use the same
name for both services. Check out ftp://ftp.gnu.org/pub/gnu/
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Re: Does anybody care about gettext?

[Kevin Fenzi]

On 8/10/19 4:12 AM, Björn Persson wrote:
> Rafal Luzynski wrote:
>> 9.08.2019 22:10 Jerry James  wrote:
>>> Source: https://ftp.gnu.org/pub/gnu/gettext/%{name}-%{version}.tar.xz  
>>
>> Do we need to change ftp to https?
> 
> That's the wrong question to ask. The right question is: What reason is
> there to choose an insecure protocol when HTTPS is available?

I'm confused by this... https is already being used, it is just the
hostname that is 'ftp'. So, I would see no reason to change this, but I
suppose you could ask upstream to rename the host to avoid confusion...

kevin




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Re: Does anybody care about gettext?

[Rafal Luzynski]

10.08.2019 13:12 Björn Persson  wrote:
> [...]
> Anyway, the answer is yes:
> 
> 220 GNU FTP server ready.
> USER anonymous
> 230-NOTICE (Updated October 13 2017):
> 230-
> 230-Because of security concerns with plaintext protocols, we still
> 230-intend to disable the FTP protocol for downloads on this server
> [...]

This answers the question, thanks.

Rafal
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Re: Does anybody care about gettext?

[Björn Persson]

Rafal Luzynski wrote:
> 9.08.2019 22:10 Jerry James  wrote:
> > Source: https://ftp.gnu.org/pub/gnu/gettext/%{name}-%{version}.tar.xz  
> 
> Do we need to change ftp to https?

That's the wrong question to ask. The right question is: What reason is
there to choose an insecure protocol when HTTPS is available?

Anyway, the answer is yes:

220 GNU FTP server ready.
USER anonymous
230-NOTICE (Updated October 13 2017):
230-
230-Because of security concerns with plaintext protocols, we still
230-intend to disable the FTP protocol for downloads on this server
230-(downloads would still be available over HTTP and HTTPS), but we
230-will not be doing it on November 1, 2017, as previously announced
230-here. We will be sharing our reasons and offering a chance to
230-comment on this issue soon; watch this space for details.
230-
230-If you maintain scripts used to access ftp.gnu.org over FTP,
230-we strongly encourage you to change them to use HTTPS instead.

Björn Persson


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Re: Does anybody care about gettext?

[Rafal Luzynski]

9.08.2019 22:10 Jerry James  wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 9, 2019 at 2:12 AM Alexander Ploumistos
>  wrote:
> > All the patches we carried were merged back in the latest upstream
> > version (0.20.1), but when I took a stab at it, I got a lot of errors
> > about the variable types and I did not know how to proceed.

I tried this as well and stumbled upon this bug:
https://savannah.gnu.org/bugs/?55356

> Alexander, try the attached spec file.  It leads to a successful build
> for me.  (Sorry for doing this in email, but I'm currently in a place
> where I can't make git pull requests.)  It may need a little tweaking
> still, and feel free to trim my verbose changelog entry if you decide
> to use any part of it. :-)

I am not Alexander but since I've already started working on this
I think I can take a look. Your spec file looks mostly good. I have
some doubts which may be completely wrong (I have never looked at the
internals of gettext before) but just in case here we go:

> %bcond_with jar
> %bcond_with java
> 

Before Jens' commit there was also a line:

%bcond_without check

If you remove it you enable the check phase unconditionally.

> [...]
> License: GPLv3+ and LGPLv2+ and GFDL

GFDL is a new thing here, I guess the public announce of the license
change will be needed.

> Source: https://ftp.gnu.org/pub/gnu/gettext/%{name}-%{version}.tar.xz

Do we need to change ftp to https?

> # ensure 'ARCHIVE_FORMAT=dirxz'
> BuildRequires: xz

"BuildRequires: chrpath" removed here, really no longer needed?

> # for documentation
> BuildRequires: texlive-dvips
> BuildRequires: texinfo-tex

It worked for me without these packages although the results
might have been different due of that.

> BuildRequires: libacl-devel

Same here.

> # for the tests
> BuildRequires: glibc-langpack-de
> BuildRequires: glibc-langpack-en
> BuildRequires: glibc-langpack-fa
> BuildRequires: glibc-langpack-fr
> BuildRequires: glibc-langpack-ja
> BuildRequires: glibc-langpack-tr
> BuildRequires: glibc-langpack-zh

Good point.

> %package devel
> Summary: Development files for %{name}
> # autopoint is GPLv3+
> # libasprintf is LGPLv2+
> # libgettextpo is GPLv3+
> License: LGPLv2+ and GPLv3+ and GFDL

A comment why GFDL has been added here would be helpful.
Maybe it is not needed here?

> %package -n libtextstyle
> Summary: Text styling library
> License: GPLv3+
> [...]

Looks great. Are the licenses correct?

> # Eliminate hardcoded rpaths; workaround libtool reordering
> -Wl,--as-needed
> # after all the libraries.
> sed -e 's|^hardcode_libdir_flag_spec=.*|hardcode_libdir_flag_spec=""|g' \
> -e 's|^runpath_var=LD_RUN_PATH|runpath_var=DIE_RPATH_DIE|g' \
> -e 's|CC=.g..|& -Wl,--as-needed|' \
> -i $(find . -name libtool)

Is this the reason why chrpath is no longer needed?

> %check
> # this takes quite a lot of time to run

Previously the %check was conditional (with "%if %{with check}").
See also my comment on top.

> %{_bindir}/envsubst
> %{_bindir}/gettext
> %{_bindir}/gettext.sh
> %{_bindir}/msgattrib
> %{_bindir}/msgcat
> %{_bindir}/msgcmp
> %{_bindir}/msgcomm
> %{_bindir}/msgconv
> %{_bindir}/msgen
> %{_bindir}/msgexec
> %{_bindir}/msgfilter
> %{_bindir}/msgfmt
> %{_bindir}/msggrep
> %{_bindir}/msginit
> %{_bindir}/msgmerge
> %{_bindir}/msgunfmt
> %{_bindir}/msguniq
> %{_bindir}/ngettext
> %{_bindir}/recode-sr-latin
> %{_bindir}/xgettext

Is it OK to list all these files explicitly?

> %files -n libtextstyle-devel
> %{_docdir}/libtextstyle/

In other subpackages the documentation (also in HTML format)
is moved to a directory htmldoc (although I am not sure why).

> %changelog
> * Fri Aug  9 2019 Jerry James  - 0.20.1-1
> - update to 0.20.1 release, all patches upstreamed

It would be nice to mention the bug report rhbz#1708013.

Also see this comment which suggests adding an upstream patch:
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1708013#c2

Regards,

Rafal
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Re: Does anybody care about gettext?

[Sundeep Anand]

On Sat, Aug 10, 2019 at 1:42 AM Jerry James  wrote:

> On Fri, Aug 9, 2019 at 2:12 AM Alexander Ploumistos
>  wrote:
> > All the patches we carried were merged back in the latest upstream
> > version (0.20.1), but when I took a stab at it, I got a lot of errors
> > about the variable types and I did not know how to proceed.
>

Not sure, quick (however, may be, improper) work-around could be fixing
formatting as
fprintf (a_fp, "%s", str)  in  libtextstyle/lib/libcroco/cr-statement.c


>
> Alexander, try the attached spec file.  It leads to a successful build
> for me.  (Sorry for doing this in email, but I'm currently in a place
> where I can't make git pull requests.)  It may need a little tweaking
> still, and feel free to trim my verbose changelog entry if you decide
> to use any part of it. :-)
>
>
Thanks Jerry, I tried building it:
https://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/taskinfo?taskID=36892738
https://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/taskinfo?taskID=36893268
https://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/taskinfo?taskID=36893460

By this time *BuildRequires* looks like:
...
BuildRequires: teckit
BuildRequires: texlive-dvips
BuildRequires: texlive-dvipdfmx
BuildRequires: texinfo-tex
BuildRequires: texlive-xetex
...
Is teckit required? (perhaps teckit could not build from source:
https://src.fedoraproject.org/rpms/teckit/tree/master) Or am I missing
something?

thanks,
sundeep


> Regards,
> --
> Jerry James
> http://www.jamezone.org/
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Re: Does anybody care about gettext?

[Alexander Ploumistos]

On Fri, Aug 9, 2019 at 11:13 PM Jerry James  wrote:
>
> On Fri, Aug 9, 2019 at 2:12 AM Alexander Ploumistos
>  wrote:
> > All the patches we carried were merged back in the latest upstream
> > version (0.20.1), but when I took a stab at it, I got a lot of errors
> > about the variable types and I did not know how to proceed.
>
> Alexander, try the attached spec file.  It leads to a successful build
> for me.  (Sorry for doing this in email, but I'm currently in a place
> where I can't make git pull requests.)  It may need a little tweaking
> still, and feel free to trim my verbose changelog entry if you decide
> to use any part of it. :-)

Wow, thank you so much Jerry!
This should be really helpful for the gettext maintainers as well.

Best regards,
Alex
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Re: Does anybody care about gettext?

[Jerry James]

On Fri, Aug 9, 2019 at 2:12 AM Alexander Ploumistos
 wrote:
> All the patches we carried were merged back in the latest upstream
> version (0.20.1), but when I took a stab at it, I got a lot of errors
> about the variable types and I did not know how to proceed.

Alexander, try the attached spec file.  It leads to a successful build
for me.  (Sorry for doing this in email, but I'm currently in a place
where I can't make git pull requests.)  It may need a little tweaking
still, and feel free to trim my verbose changelog entry if you decide
to use any part of it. :-)

Regards,
-- 
Jerry James
http://www.jamezone.org/
%bcond_with jar
%bcond_with java

%global tarversion 0.20.1
%global archiveversion 0.20

Summary: GNU libraries and utilities for producing multi-lingual messages
Name: gettext
Version: %{tarversion}
Release: 1%{?dist}
# The following are licensed under LGPLv2+:
# - libintl and its headers
# - libasprintf and its headers
# - libintl.jar
# - GNU.Gettext.dll
# - gettext.sh
# The following are licensed under GFDL:
# - gettext-tools/doc/FAQ.html
# - gettext-tools/doc/tutorial.html
# - gettext info files
# - libasprintf info files
# - libtextstyle info files
# Everything else is GPLv3+
License: GPLv3+ and LGPLv2+ and GFDL
URL: http://www.gnu.org/software/gettext/
Source: https://ftp.gnu.org/pub/gnu/gettext/%{name}-%{version}.tar.xz
Source2: msghack.py
Source3: msghack.1

# for bootstrapping
# BuildRequires: autoconf >= 2.62
# BuildRequires: automake
# BuildRequires: libtool
# BuildRequires: bison

BuildRequires: gcc-c++
%if %{with java}
# libintl.jar requires gcj >= 4.3 to build
BuildRequires: gcc-java, libgcj
# For javadoc
BuildRequires: java-1.6.0-openjdk-devel
%if %{with jar}
BuildRequires: %{_bindir}/fastjar
# require zip and unzip for brp-java-repack-jars
BuildRequires: zip, unzip
%endif
%endif
# for po-mode.el
BuildRequires: emacs
# for autosetup
BuildRequires: git
# ensure 'ARCHIVE_FORMAT=dirxz'
BuildRequires: xz
# for documentation
BuildRequires: texlive-dvips
BuildRequires: texinfo-tex
# following suggested by DEPENDENCIES:
BuildRequires: ncurses-devel
BuildRequires: libxml2-devel
BuildRequires: glib2-devel
BuildRequires: libacl-devel
BuildRequires: libcroco-devel
BuildRequires: libunistring-devel
# for the tests
BuildRequires: glibc-langpack-de
BuildRequires: glibc-langpack-en
BuildRequires: glibc-langpack-fa
BuildRequires: glibc-langpack-fr
BuildRequires: glibc-langpack-ja
BuildRequires: glibc-langpack-tr
BuildRequires: glibc-langpack-zh
# Depend on the exact version of the library sub package
Requires: %{name}-libs%{_isa} = %{version}-%{release}
# exception for bundled gnulib copylib
Provides: bundled(gnulib)

%description
The GNU gettext package provides a set of tools and documentation for
producing multi-lingual messages in programs. Tools include a set of
conventions about how programs should be written to support message
catalogs, a directory and file naming organization for the message
catalogs, a runtime library which supports the retrieval of translated
messages, and stand-alone programs for handling the translatable and
the already translated strings. Gettext provides an easy to use
library and tools for creating, using, and modifying natural language
catalogs and is a powerful and simple method for internationalizing
programs.


%package common-devel
Summary: Common development files for %{name}
# autopoint archive
License: GPLv3+
BuildArch: noarch

%description common-devel
This package contains common architecture independent gettext development files.


%package devel
Summary: Development files for %{name}
# autopoint is GPLv3+
# libasprintf is LGPLv2+
# libgettextpo is GPLv3+
License: LGPLv2+ and GPLv3+ and GFDL
Requires: %{name} = %{version}-%{release}
Requires: %{name}-libs = %{version}-%{release}
Requires: %{name}-common-devel = %{version}-%{release}
Requires: xz
Obsoletes: gettext-autopoint < 0.18.1.1-3
Provides: gettext-autopoint = %{version}-%{release}

%description devel
This package contains all development related files necessary for
developing or compiling applications/libraries that needs
internationalization capability. You also need this package if you
want to add gettext support for your project.


%package libs
Summary: Libraries for %{name}
# libasprintf is LGPLv2+
# libgettextpo is GPLv3+
License: LGPLv2+ and GPLv3+

%description libs
This package contains libraries used internationalization support.


%package -n libtextstyle
Summary: Text styling library
License: GPLv3+

%description -n libtextstyle
Library for producing styled text to be displayed in a terminal
emulator.


%package -n libtextstyle-devel
Summary: Development files for libtextstyle
License: GPLv3+ and GFDL
Requires: libtextstyle%{?_isa} = %{version}-%{release}

%description -n libtextstyle-devel
This package contains all development related files necessary for
developing or compiling applications/libraries that needs text
styling.


%package -n emacs-%{name}
Summary: Support for editing po 

Re: Does anybody care about gettext?

[Stephen John Smoogen]

On Fri, 9 Aug 2019 at 14:08, Michael Cronenworth  wrote:

> On 8/9/19 8:50 AM, Miro Hrončok wrote:
> > Because if we don't, people just gonna ignore FTBFS forever.
> >
> > Could we have known that gettext will be unretired right away anyway?
> Probably
> > yes, but nobody got time / energy / resources to do any kind of analysis
> of the
> > FTBFS packages.
> >
> > Next time, I hope that FTBFS bugs for critical component are actually
> actively
> > solved sooner than the retirement happens. We can try to be more
> aggressive with
> > the reminders, but I don't know if that helps, because even currently,
> packages
> > just switch the Bugzilla to ASSIGNED to stop them.
>
> Instead of spending your time on better nag e-mails why don't you look at
> contributing patches?
>

Miro does contribute a lot of patches. There are still a lot of packages
which need more than just a patch but someone to take ownership. If you
have a problem with these actions please bring them up with FESCO or the
Council as this was brought up previously in both places as things that
needed to be fixed. They can then work out how this is to be dealt with in
the future.




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-- 
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Re: Does anybody care about gettext?

[Adam Williamson]

On Fri, 2019-08-09 at 13:07 -0500, Michael Cronenworth wrote:
> On 8/9/19 8:50 AM, Miro Hrončok wrote:
> > Because if we don't, people just gonna ignore FTBFS forever.
> > 
> > Could we have known that gettext will be unretired right away anyway? 
> > Probably 
> > yes, but nobody got time / energy / resources to do any kind of analysis of 
> > the 
> > FTBFS packages.
> > 
> > Next time, I hope that FTBFS bugs for critical component are actually 
> > actively 
> > solved sooner than the retirement happens. We can try to be more aggressive 
> > with 
> > the reminders, but I don't know if that helps, because even currently, 
> > packages 
> > just switch the Bugzilla to ASSIGNED to stop them.
> 
> Instead of spending your time on better nag e-mails why don't you look at 
> contributing patches?

Do you know he doesn't? But regardless, one person can run an FTBFS
notification system. One person cannot fix all the FTBFS bugs.

It's similar to the blocker bug process: a couple of us in QA can
handle discovering, reporting and tracking blocker bugs. We can't *fix*
them all (though I try to fix as many as I have time and ability to).
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | XMPP: adamw AT happyassassin . net
http://www.happyassassin.net
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Re: Does anybody care about gettext?

[Michael Cronenworth]

On 8/9/19 8:50 AM, Miro Hrončok wrote:

Because if we don't, people just gonna ignore FTBFS forever.

Could we have known that gettext will be unretired right away anyway? Probably 
yes, but nobody got time / energy / resources to do any kind of analysis of the 
FTBFS packages.


Next time, I hope that FTBFS bugs for critical component are actually actively 
solved sooner than the retirement happens. We can try to be more aggressive with 
the reminders, but I don't know if that helps, because even currently, packages 
just switch the Bugzilla to ASSIGNED to stop them.


Instead of spending your time on better nag e-mails why don't you look at 
contributing patches?

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Re: Does anybody care about gettext?

[Brian (bex) Exelbierd]

On Fri, Aug 9, 2019 at 5:06 PM Miro Hrončok  wrote:
>
> On 09. 08. 19 16:29, Simo Sorce wrote:
> > On Fri, 2019-08-09 at 15:50 +0200, Miro Hrončok wrote:
> >> Next time, I hope that FTBFS bugs for critical component are actually 
> >> actively
> >> solved sooner than the retirement happens. We can try to be more 
> >> aggressive with
> >> the reminders, but I don't know if that helps, because even currently, 
> >> packages
> >> just switch the Bugzilla to ASSIGNED to stop them.
> >
> > If you send direct emails to package owner specifying what package is
> > broken maybe yes.
> >
> > If you send multikilobyte emails generically stating FTBFS and parse
> > yourself this list of 1000 packages to see if one is yours, then no,
> > they go to trash directly.
>
> Patches welcome :D Even now, the reminders are semiautomatical and painful.
> Sending direct e-mail is impossible without proper automation. And it seems 
> all
> our automation from years ago is now nonfunctional.

FWIW, python3-mailmerge might be useful here as the email would be
direct, personalized, and not subject to filters around BZ mail.

regards,

bex
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Re: Does anybody care about gettext?

[Miro Hrončok]

On 09. 08. 19 16:58, Paul Wouters wrote:

On Fri, 9 Aug 2019, Daniel P. Berrangé wrote:


We can't carry on postponing things indefinitely though - at some point we
have to say enough, and expect a maintainer to actually do some maintaining.


That is an argument to orphan, not an argument to remove the package.
Had gettext been orphaned, people would have noticed without the entire
OS breakage.


The breakage took ~3 several hours to notice and a 5 minute fix.

I think it was not that catastrophic.

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Re: Does anybody care about gettext?

[Adam Williamson]

On Fri, 2019-08-09 at 10:29 -0400, Simo Sorce wrote:
> On Fri, 2019-08-09 at 15:50 +0200, Miro Hrončok wrote:
> > Next time, I hope that FTBFS bugs for critical component are actually 
> > actively 
> > solved sooner than the retirement happens. We can try to be more aggressive 
> > with 
> > the reminders, but I don't know if that helps, because even currently, 
> > packages 
> > just switch the Bugzilla to ASSIGNED to stop them.
> 
> If you send direct emails to package owner specifying what package is
> broken maybe yes.

The bug reports do that.
-- 
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Re: Does anybody care about gettext?

[Paul Wouters]

On Fri, 9 Aug 2019, Daniel P. Berrangé wrote:


We can't carry on postponing things indefinitely though - at some point we
have to say enough, and expect a maintainer to actually do some maintaining.


That is an argument to orphan, not an argument to remove the package.
Had gettext been orphaned, people would have noticed without the entire
OS breakage.

Paul
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Re: Does anybody care about gettext?

[Miro Hrončok]

On 09. 08. 19 16:22, Martin Kolman wrote:

On Fri, 2019-08-09 at 15:14 +0100, Daniel P. Berrangé wrote:

On Fri, Aug 09, 2019 at 03:13:07PM +0200, Martin Kolman wrote:

On Fri, 2019-08-09 at 14:00 +0100, Daniel P. Berrangé wrote:

On Fri, Aug 09, 2019 at 02:28:55PM +0200, Jens-Ulrik Petersen wrote:

On Fri, Aug 9, 2019 at 9:27 AM Igor Gnatenko <
ignatenkobr...@fedoraproject.org> wrote:


Well, it was retired because it did not built since F30 mass rebuild…



I went ahead and built it with the testsuite disabled for now: I suppose
any Proven Packager could also have done, but yeah normally it should be
done by the maintainers.
I admit the ball was dropped on this by various people (myself included),
and sorry about that. [1]
The new major upstream release was also a long time coming...

But to me the deeper question is still "why are we proactively breaking the
distro" in this way with package retirements by non-maintainers?

Sure FTBFS is bad but there is no need to proactively remove core packages
which are still working okay.
I really really wish could stop this... causing more busy work and stress.


When a FTBFS hits, we don't know whether the package is still working
ok or not as there are many possible reasons for the failure.

Maybe this is something gating tests could help with ? If a package is FTBFS
and has reasonable gating test coverage, you will know it is working.


The gating CI is a pretty low bar right now. As CI is made stronger,
it could well actually make FTBFS *more* common, as CI is introducing
more scope for things to be classed as a failure. So be careful what
you wish for :-)


  Filing
the FTBFS BZs informs the maintainer(s) & allows them to investigate,
figure what has gone wrong & decide what changes are needed. Missing
on 2 mass rebuilds means the package is still build with F29 toolchain,
and thus lacking desired improvements Fedora is introducing, so this
has a cost for the rest of the distro. Somewhere there's a balance
between cost for the maintainer in work & cost for the distro in the
package being outdated.

There was no acknowlegement on the BZ that anyone was actively working
on fixing it in 6 months. This is true for so many of the FTBFS BZs that
get filed. If the packages don't get orphaned after 6+ months of being
ignored, when would they ever be fixed ?

Having said that, I think in the case of packages which are deps of
so much of the distro, it could have been useful to have a warning of
imminent orphaning on fedora-devel. There was a warning that orphaning
was starting, but no list of affected packages included.

Maybe another job for automated tests/CI ?

Before dropping a batch of packages, do a test compose without them and postpone
the drop if the compose run crashes and burns.

Sounds really like something doable which could save a lot of everyones time 
once in place.


We can't carry on postponing things indefinitely though - at some point we
have to say enough, and expect a maintainer to actually do some maintaining.

Sure & I totally agree with that.

I'm just trying to find ways that can sound the alarm bells &
prevent everyone impacting Rawhide breakage before it's too late
and things need to be fixed post-mortem. An this case really looks
like something that an automated check should be able to catch soon
enough. :)


Tough question: Would the package get any attention if it was not retired?

--
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--
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IRC: mhroncok
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Re: Does anybody care about gettext?

[Miro Hrončok]

On 09. 08. 19 16:29, Simo Sorce wrote:

On Fri, 2019-08-09 at 15:50 +0200, Miro Hrončok wrote:

Next time, I hope that FTBFS bugs for critical component are actually actively
solved sooner than the retirement happens. We can try to be more aggressive with
the reminders, but I don't know if that helps, because even currently, packages
just switch the Bugzilla to ASSIGNED to stop them.


If you send direct emails to package owner specifying what package is
broken maybe yes.

If you send multikilobyte emails generically stating FTBFS and parse
yourself this list of 1000 packages to see if one is yours, then no,
they go to trash directly.


Patches welcome :D Even now, the reminders are semiautomatical and painful. 
Sending direct e-mail is impossible without proper automation. And it seems all 
our automation from years ago is now nonfunctional.


--
Miro Hrončok
--
Phone: +420777974800
IRC: mhroncok
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Re: Does anybody care about gettext?

[Simo Sorce]

On Fri, 2019-08-09 at 15:50 +0200, Miro Hrončok wrote:
> Next time, I hope that FTBFS bugs for critical component are actually 
> actively 
> solved sooner than the retirement happens. We can try to be more aggressive 
> with 
> the reminders, but I don't know if that helps, because even currently, 
> packages 
> just switch the Bugzilla to ASSIGNED to stop them.

If you send direct emails to package owner specifying what package is
broken maybe yes.

If you send multikilobyte emails generically stating FTBFS and parse
yourself this list of 1000 packages to see if one is yours, then no,
they go to trash directly.

Simo.
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Re: Does anybody care about gettext?

[Martin Kolman]

On Fri, 2019-08-09 at 15:14 +0100, Daniel P. Berrangé wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 09, 2019 at 03:13:07PM +0200, Martin Kolman wrote:
> > On Fri, 2019-08-09 at 14:00 +0100, Daniel P. Berrangé wrote:
> > > On Fri, Aug 09, 2019 at 02:28:55PM +0200, Jens-Ulrik Petersen wrote:
> > > > On Fri, Aug 9, 2019 at 9:27 AM Igor Gnatenko <
> > > > ignatenkobr...@fedoraproject.org> wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > > Well, it was retired because it did not built since F30 mass rebuild…
> > > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > I went ahead and built it with the testsuite disabled for now: I suppose
> > > > any Proven Packager could also have done, but yeah normally it should be
> > > > done by the maintainers.
> > > > I admit the ball was dropped on this by various people (myself 
> > > > included),
> > > > and sorry about that. [1]
> > > > The new major upstream release was also a long time coming...
> > > > 
> > > > But to me the deeper question is still "why are we proactively breaking 
> > > > the
> > > > distro" in this way with package retirements by non-maintainers?
> > > > 
> > > > Sure FTBFS is bad but there is no need to proactively remove core 
> > > > packages
> > > > which are still working okay.
> > > > I really really wish could stop this... causing more busy work and 
> > > > stress.
> > > 
> > > When a FTBFS hits, we don't know whether the package is still working
> > > ok or not as there are many possible reasons for the failure.
> > Maybe this is something gating tests could help with ? If a package is FTBFS
> > and has reasonable gating test coverage, you will know it is working.
> 
> The gating CI is a pretty low bar right now. As CI is made stronger,
> it could well actually make FTBFS *more* common, as CI is introducing
> more scope for things to be classed as a failure. So be careful what
> you wish for :-)
> 
> > >  Filing
> > > the FTBFS BZs informs the maintainer(s) & allows them to investigate,
> > > figure what has gone wrong & decide what changes are needed. Missing
> > > on 2 mass rebuilds means the package is still build with F29 toolchain,
> > > and thus lacking desired improvements Fedora is introducing, so this
> > > has a cost for the rest of the distro. Somewhere there's a balance
> > > between cost for the maintainer in work & cost for the distro in the
> > > package being outdated.
> > > 
> > > There was no acknowlegement on the BZ that anyone was actively working
> > > on fixing it in 6 months. This is true for so many of the FTBFS BZs that
> > > get filed. If the packages don't get orphaned after 6+ months of being
> > > ignored, when would they ever be fixed ?
> > > 
> > > Having said that, I think in the case of packages which are deps of
> > > so much of the distro, it could have been useful to have a warning of
> > > imminent orphaning on fedora-devel. There was a warning that orphaning
> > > was starting, but no list of affected packages included.
> > Maybe another job for automated tests/CI ?
> > 
> > Before dropping a batch of packages, do a test compose without them and 
> > postpone
> > the drop if the compose run crashes and burns.
> > 
> > Sounds really like something doable which could save a lot of everyones 
> > time once in place.
> 
> We can't carry on postponing things indefinitely though - at some point we
> have to say enough, and expect a maintainer to actually do some maintaining.
Sure & I totally agree with that. 

I'm just trying to find ways that can sound the alarm bells & 
prevent everyone impacting Rawhide breakage before it's too late
and things need to be fixed post-mortem. An this case really looks
like something that an automated check should be able to catch soon 
enough. :)

> 
> Regards,
> Daniel
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Re: Does anybody care about gettext?

[Daniel P . Berrangé]

On Fri, Aug 09, 2019 at 03:13:07PM +0200, Martin Kolman wrote:
> On Fri, 2019-08-09 at 14:00 +0100, Daniel P. Berrangé wrote:
> > On Fri, Aug 09, 2019 at 02:28:55PM +0200, Jens-Ulrik Petersen wrote:
> > > On Fri, Aug 9, 2019 at 9:27 AM Igor Gnatenko <
> > > ignatenkobr...@fedoraproject.org> wrote:
> > > 
> > > > Well, it was retired because it did not built since F30 mass rebuild…
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > I went ahead and built it with the testsuite disabled for now: I suppose
> > > any Proven Packager could also have done, but yeah normally it should be
> > > done by the maintainers.
> > > I admit the ball was dropped on this by various people (myself included),
> > > and sorry about that. [1]
> > > The new major upstream release was also a long time coming...
> > > 
> > > But to me the deeper question is still "why are we proactively breaking 
> > > the
> > > distro" in this way with package retirements by non-maintainers?
> > > 
> > > Sure FTBFS is bad but there is no need to proactively remove core packages
> > > which are still working okay.
> > > I really really wish could stop this... causing more busy work and stress.
> > 
> > When a FTBFS hits, we don't know whether the package is still working
> > ok or not as there are many possible reasons for the failure.
> Maybe this is something gating tests could help with ? If a package is FTBFS
> and has reasonable gating test coverage, you will know it is working.

The gating CI is a pretty low bar right now. As CI is made stronger,
it could well actually make FTBFS *more* common, as CI is introducing
more scope for things to be classed as a failure. So be careful what
you wish for :-)

> >  Filing
> > the FTBFS BZs informs the maintainer(s) & allows them to investigate,
> > figure what has gone wrong & decide what changes are needed. Missing
> > on 2 mass rebuilds means the package is still build with F29 toolchain,
> > and thus lacking desired improvements Fedora is introducing, so this
> > has a cost for the rest of the distro. Somewhere there's a balance
> > between cost for the maintainer in work & cost for the distro in the
> > package being outdated.
> > 
> > There was no acknowlegement on the BZ that anyone was actively working
> > on fixing it in 6 months. This is true for so many of the FTBFS BZs that
> > get filed. If the packages don't get orphaned after 6+ months of being
> > ignored, when would they ever be fixed ?
> > 
> > Having said that, I think in the case of packages which are deps of
> > so much of the distro, it could have been useful to have a warning of
> > imminent orphaning on fedora-devel. There was a warning that orphaning
> > was starting, but no list of affected packages included.
> Maybe another job for automated tests/CI ?
> 
> Before dropping a batch of packages, do a test compose without them and 
> postpone
> the drop if the compose run crashes and burns.
> 
> Sounds really like something doable which could save a lot of everyones time 
> once in place.

We can't carry on postponing things indefinitely though - at some point we
have to say enough, and expect a maintainer to actually do some maintaining.

Regards,
Daniel
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Re: Does anybody care about gettext?

[Miro Hrončok]

On 09. 08. 19 14:28, Jens-Ulrik Petersen wrote:
On Fri, Aug 9, 2019 at 9:27 AM Igor Gnatenko > wrote:


Well, it was retired because it did not built since F30 mass rebuild…


I went ahead and built it with the testsuite disabled for now: I suppose any 
Proven Packager could also have done, but yeah normally it should be done by the 
maintainers.
I admit the ball was dropped on this by various people (myself included), and 
sorry about that. [1]

The new major upstream release was also a long time coming...

But to me the deeper question is still "why are we proactively breaking the 
distro" in this way with package retirements by non-maintainers?


Because if we don't, people just gonna ignore FTBFS forever.

Could we have known that gettext will be unretired right away anyway? Probably 
yes, but nobody got time / energy / resources to do any kind of analysis of the 
FTBFS packages.


Next time, I hope that FTBFS bugs for critical component are actually actively 
solved sooner than the retirement happens. We can try to be more aggressive with 
the reminders, but I don't know if that helps, because even currently, packages 
just switch the Bugzilla to ASSIGNED to stop them.


--
Miro Hrončok
--
Phone: +420777974800
IRC: mhroncok
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Re: Does anybody care about gettext?

[Martin Kolman]

On Fri, 2019-08-09 at 14:00 +0100, Daniel P. Berrangé wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 09, 2019 at 02:28:55PM +0200, Jens-Ulrik Petersen wrote:
> > On Fri, Aug 9, 2019 at 9:27 AM Igor Gnatenko <
> > ignatenkobr...@fedoraproject.org> wrote:
> > 
> > > Well, it was retired because it did not built since F30 mass rebuild…
> > > 
> > 
> > I went ahead and built it with the testsuite disabled for now: I suppose
> > any Proven Packager could also have done, but yeah normally it should be
> > done by the maintainers.
> > I admit the ball was dropped on this by various people (myself included),
> > and sorry about that. [1]
> > The new major upstream release was also a long time coming...
> > 
> > But to me the deeper question is still "why are we proactively breaking the
> > distro" in this way with package retirements by non-maintainers?
> > 
> > Sure FTBFS is bad but there is no need to proactively remove core packages
> > which are still working okay.
> > I really really wish could stop this... causing more busy work and stress.
> 
> When a FTBFS hits, we don't know whether the package is still working
> ok or not as there are many possible reasons for the failure.
Maybe this is something gating tests could help with ? If a package is FTBFS
and has reasonable gating test coverage, you will know it is working.

>  Filing
> the FTBFS BZs informs the maintainer(s) & allows them to investigate,
> figure what has gone wrong & decide what changes are needed. Missing
> on 2 mass rebuilds means the package is still build with F29 toolchain,
> and thus lacking desired improvements Fedora is introducing, so this
> has a cost for the rest of the distro. Somewhere there's a balance
> between cost for the maintainer in work & cost for the distro in the
> package being outdated.
> 
> There was no acknowlegement on the BZ that anyone was actively working
> on fixing it in 6 months. This is true for so many of the FTBFS BZs that
> get filed. If the packages don't get orphaned after 6+ months of being
> ignored, when would they ever be fixed ?
> 
> Having said that, I think in the case of packages which are deps of
> so much of the distro, it could have been useful to have a warning of
> imminent orphaning on fedora-devel. There was a warning that orphaning
> was starting, but no list of affected packages included.
Maybe another job for automated tests/CI ?

Before dropping a batch of packages, do a test compose without them and postpone
the drop if the compose run crashes and burns.

Sounds really like something doable which could save a lot of everyones time 
once in place.

> 
> If a package list was included, *non-maintainers* might have noticed that
> gettext was at risk & would massively impact the distro & could have
> stepped up to help solve it, where the original maintainer drops the ball.
> 
> Overall though, despite the disruption, orphaning has had the intended
> effect of getting the long standing FTBFS problem resolved.
> 
> Regards,
> Daniel
> -- 
> > : https://berrange.com  -o-https://www.flickr.com/photos/dberrange 
> > :|
> > : https://libvirt.org -o-https://fstop138.berrange.com 
> > :|
> > : https://entangle-photo.org-o-https://www.instagram.com/dberrange 
> > :|
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Re: Does anybody care about gettext?

[Daniel P . Berrangé]

On Fri, Aug 09, 2019 at 02:28:55PM +0200, Jens-Ulrik Petersen wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 9, 2019 at 9:27 AM Igor Gnatenko <
> ignatenkobr...@fedoraproject.org> wrote:
> 
> > Well, it was retired because it did not built since F30 mass rebuild…
> >
> 
> I went ahead and built it with the testsuite disabled for now: I suppose
> any Proven Packager could also have done, but yeah normally it should be
> done by the maintainers.
> I admit the ball was dropped on this by various people (myself included),
> and sorry about that. [1]
> The new major upstream release was also a long time coming...
> 
> But to me the deeper question is still "why are we proactively breaking the
> distro" in this way with package retirements by non-maintainers?
> 
> Sure FTBFS is bad but there is no need to proactively remove core packages
> which are still working okay.
> I really really wish could stop this... causing more busy work and stress.

When a FTBFS hits, we don't know whether the package is still working
ok or not as there are many possible reasons for the failure. Filing
the FTBFS BZs informs the maintainer(s) & allows them to investigate,
figure what has gone wrong & decide what changes are needed. Missing
on 2 mass rebuilds means the package is still build with F29 toolchain,
and thus lacking desired improvements Fedora is introducing, so this
has a cost for the rest of the distro. Somewhere there's a balance
between cost for the maintainer in work & cost for the distro in the
package being outdated.

There was no acknowlegement on the BZ that anyone was actively working
on fixing it in 6 months. This is true for so many of the FTBFS BZs that
get filed. If the packages don't get orphaned after 6+ months of being
ignored, when would they ever be fixed ?

Having said that, I think in the case of packages which are deps of
so much of the distro, it could have been useful to have a warning of
imminent orphaning on fedora-devel. There was a warning that orphaning
was starting, but no list of affected packages included.

If a package list was included, *non-maintainers* might have noticed that
gettext was at risk & would massively impact the distro & could have
stepped up to help solve it, where the original maintainer drops the ball.

Overall though, despite the disruption, orphaning has had the intended
effect of getting the long standing FTBFS problem resolved.

Regards,
Daniel
-- 
|: https://berrange.com  -o-https://www.flickr.com/photos/dberrange :|
|: https://libvirt.org -o-https://fstop138.berrange.com :|
|: https://entangle-photo.org-o-https://www.instagram.com/dberrange :|
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Re: Does anybody care about gettext?

[Jens-Ulrik Petersen]

On Fri, Aug 9, 2019 at 9:27 AM Igor Gnatenko <
ignatenkobr...@fedoraproject.org> wrote:

> Well, it was retired because it did not built since F30 mass rebuild…
>

I went ahead and built it with the testsuite disabled for now: I suppose
any Proven Packager could also have done, but yeah normally it should be
done by the maintainers.
I admit the ball was dropped on this by various people (myself included),
and sorry about that. [1]
The new major upstream release was also a long time coming...

But to me the deeper question is still "why are we proactively breaking the
distro" in this way with package retirements by non-maintainers?

Sure FTBFS is bad but there is no need to proactively remove core packages
which are still working okay.
I really really wish could stop this... causing more busy work and stress.

Jens

[1] short version is: there was a partial package owner handover which was
not properly completed unfortunately.
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Re: Does anybody care about gettext?

[Miro Hrončok]

On 09. 08. 19 10:09, Alexander Ploumistos wrote:

P.S.: Can anyone explain how the builds of other packages went back to
normal, even though there was no successful gettext build?


I've requested the package to be unretired and when that happened, I've retagged 
the latest build to f31-pending. That eventually moved it back to f31.


--
Miro Hrončok
--
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IRC: mhroncok
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Re: Does anybody care about gettext?

[Leigh Scott]

Maybe package the newer version 0.20.1 http://www.gnu.org/software/gettext/
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Re: Does anybody care about gettext?

[Sundeep Anand]

On Fri, Aug 9, 2019 at 1:40 PM Alexander Ploumistos <
alex.ploumis...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hello,
>
> On Fri, Aug 9, 2019 at 11:03 AM Sundeep Anand  wrote:
> > most probably I’ll fix that by next week.
>
> All the patches we carried were merged back in the latest upstream
> version (0.20.1), but when I took a stab at it, I got a lot of errors
>

I noticed that, thanks :)


> about the variable types and I did not know how to proceed.
>
> Best of luck
>
> P.S.: Can anyone explain how the builds of other packages went back to
> normal, even though there was no successful gettext build?
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Re: Does anybody care about gettext?

[Alexander Ploumistos]

Hello,

On Fri, Aug 9, 2019 at 11:03 AM Sundeep Anand  wrote:
> most probably I’ll fix that by next week.

All the patches we carried were merged back in the latest upstream
version (0.20.1), but when I took a stab at it, I got a lot of errors
about the variable types and I did not know how to proceed.

Best of luck

P.S.: Can anyone explain how the builds of other packages went back to
normal, even though there was no successful gettext build?
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Re: Does anybody care about gettext?

[Sundeep Anand]

Hi,

most probably I’ll fix that by next week.

thanks,
sundeep 

> On 09-Aug-2019, at 9:26 AM, Igor Gnatenko  
> wrote:
> 
> Well, it was retired because it did not built since F30 mass rebuild…
> 
> * petersen (Jens Petersen)
> * ueno (Daiki Ueno)
> * praiskup (Pavel Raiskup)
> * suanand (Sundeep Anand)
> * nphilipp (Nils Philippsen)
> * jjanco (Jakub Janco)
> 
> 6 maintainers could not fix FTBFS for half a year? Anybody is
> interested to maintain gettext?
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Re: Does anybody care about gettext?

[Miro Hrončok]

> Well, it was retired because it did not built since F30 mass rebuild…
> 
> 6 maintainers could not fix FTBFS for half a year? Anybody is
> interested to maintain gettext?

BTW I've just orphaned it, so hopefully somebody will take it and actually make 
it build. 
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