Re: How do Fedora developers get access to devtoolset for testing.

[Jonathan Wakely]

On 29/07/20 10:23 +0200, Florian Weimer wrote:

* Jonathan Wakely:


It's not about devtoolset. Installing CentOS 7 RPMs on Fedora rawhide
is outlandish. It won't work in general, because the CentOS RPMs have
dependencies on CentOS packages, and Fedora has different versions.


Steven has a point, though.  For software not built by Red Hat,
installing RPMs on Fedora works most of the time even if they have been
packaged for the enterprise downstreams (or vice versa, sometimes the
intended user base is not entirely clear).


Yes, third-party packagers usually want to minimise the number of
builds they have to do, and ship a package that works across as many
versions of a distro as possible. e.g. they just provide an rpm and a
.deb and those are expected to work on any RPM-based distro or any
Debian-derived distro that is sufficiently recent, maybe with a .tar.gz
containing a standalone binary for everything else that doesn't use
rpm or dpkg.

That's sometimes done via static linking, and/or bundling dependencies
in the package.

But packages from the Fedora and CentOS repos are generally specific
to that distro, usually even a specific version of that distro. Each
package can be (and usually is) rebuilt and re-packaged as needed for
each distro release. We don't need to build it once and have it keep
working on later releaases, because we have a separate repo for each
release and we have build systems that rebuild everything. And we
don't want to use static linking or bundling.

So yes, that's a significant difference between third-party packages
(minimise dependencies for portability) and packages from the distro's
own repos (minimise bundling for maintainability and security).


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Re: How do Fedora developers get access to devtoolset for testing.

[Florian Weimer]

* Jonathan Wakely:

> It's not about devtoolset. Installing CentOS 7 RPMs on Fedora rawhide
> is outlandish. It won't work in general, because the CentOS RPMs have
> dependencies on CentOS packages, and Fedora has different versions.

Steven has a point, though.  For software not built by Red Hat,
installing RPMs on Fedora works most of the time even if they have been
packaged for the enterprise downstreams (or vice versa, sometimes the
intended user base is not entirely clear).

Thanks,
Florian
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Re: How do Fedora developers get access to devtoolset for testing.

[Fabio Valentini]

On Tue, Jul 28, 2020 at 9:03 PM Steven Munroe  wrote:
>
> Dave Love writes:
>
> > It surprises me if that's IBM experience, and it's a bit worrying for our 
> > new system.
>
> I no longer speak for IBM (retired) so more of a personal Linux for POWER 
> opinion. But the Advance Toolchain (AT) provides the counter example and as 
> it's on the 13th release (follows GCC releases, AT14 coming soon) I would say 
> useful and valid. AT does separate builds for each distro it supports but the 
> RHEL 8 build, installs on Fedora.
>
> Full disclosure, AT was my  idea. The goal was to enable new POWER hardware 
> feature for customers, who insisted on running old (stable) distributions.
>
> Now it is likely DevToolSet has different and conflicting goals. I am willing 
> to accept that and move on.
>
> > Really, it isn't necessary, any more than it was for me on the Fedora
> development system.
>
> Well it is, as PVECLIB supports BE and LE. And a chroot will not handle that.

fedora dropped support for big-endian ppc64 a while ago (looks like
with fedora 29), only ppc64le is now supported.
Also, mock *can* handle virtualisation / emulation in addition to
basic chroots / containers, so it *does* support running builds on
non-native architectures via QEMU (via the --forcearch CLI argument).
Your mileage may vary though, mostly this is pretty slow :)

Fabio

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Re: How do Fedora developers get access to devtoolset for testing.

[Steven Munroe]

Dave Love writes:

> It surprises me if that's IBM experience, and it's a bit worrying for our
new system.

I no longer speak for IBM (retired) so more of a personal Linux for POWER
opinion. But the Advance Toolchain (AT)

provides
the counter example and as it's on the 13th release (follows GCC releases,
AT14 coming soon) I would say useful and valid. AT does separate builds for
each distro it supports but the RHEL 8 build, installs on Fedora.

Full disclosure, AT was my  idea. The goal was to enable new POWER hardware
feature for customers, who insisted on running old (stable) distributions.

Now it is likely DevToolSet has different and conflicting goals. I am
willing to accept that and move on.

> Really, it isn't necessary, any more than it was for me on the Fedora
development system.

Well it is, as PVECLIB supports BE and LE. And a chroot will not handle
that.
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Re: How do Fedora developers get access to devtoolset for testing.

[Dave Love]

Steven Munroe  writes:

> I come from a different culture and experience. I am not as conversant
> in Fedorian as I should be. So I tend to misunderstand what is plain
> to you all.

Really, it's nothing specific to Fedora.  The same would apply to any
GNU/Linux distro (or other OS with a typical packaging system without a
robust backwards compatibility story).

> From my experience, installing (something like) devtoolset on Fedora
> was not an outlandish idea, Apparently it is.

It surprises me if that's IBM experience, and it's a bit worrying for
our new system.

> So installing a centos 7 VM instance on my local power8 seems like a
> better option.

Really, it isn't necessary, any more than it was for me on the Fedora
development system.  I run VMs for Fedora development, but that's
because I'm personally a Debian user, and I don't think Debian has the
relevant tools available, apart from some version of mock.  You do
sometimes need a VM when the kernel matters, but not most of the time.
(The container support that's now in mock does allow me to build for
rawhide or EL8 on RHEL7 -- thanks to whoever implemented that -- not
just the other way round.)  Is this sort of thing not clear in the
packager documentation coming from cold?  If not, I guess someone would
improve it.
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Re: How do Fedora developers get access to devtoolset for testing.

[Jonathan Wakely]

On 21/07/20 17:12 -0500, Steven Munroe wrote:

Dave Love; writes:
...

I'm pretty sure I said to do that a while ago, like I did when
testing the trivial patch that I didn't expect to cause such trouble.


You probably did say so ;)

I come from a different culture and experience. I am not as conversant
in Fedorian as I should be. So I tend to misunderstand what is plain
to you all.

From my experience, installing (something like) devtoolset on Fedora
was not an outlandish idea, Apparently it is.


It's not about devtoolset. Installing CentOS 7 RPMs on Fedora rawhide
is outlandish. It won't work in general, because the CentOS RPMs have
dependencies on CentOS packages, and Fedora has different versions.

CentOS and Fedora are different distros.


So installing a centos 7 VM instance on my local power8 seems like a
better option.


Or just use mock, as has been said several times.

Simply 'fedpkg --release epel7 mockbuild' in the dist-git repo will do
everything correctly for you.

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Re: How do Fedora developers get access to devtoolset for testing.

[Fabio Valentini]

On Wed, Jul 22, 2020 at 12:14 AM Steven Munroe  wrote:
>
> Dave Love; writes:
> ...
> > I'm pretty sure I said to do that a while ago, like I did when
> > testing the trivial patch that I didn't expect to cause such trouble.
>
> You probably did say so ;)
>
> I come from a different culture and experience. I am not as conversant
> in Fedorian as I should be. So I tend to misunderstand what is plain
> to you all.
>
> From my experience, installing (something like) devtoolset on Fedora
> was not an outlandish idea, Apparently it is.
>
> So installing a centos 7 VM instance on my local power8 seems like a
> better option.

Why not use mock, with something like `mock -r epel-7-ppc64(le)`?
It gives you a clean EPEL 7 build environment ... and you can shell
into it, if you need to debug something (`mock -r epel-7-ppc64(le)
shell`). Much easier (and faster?) than a separate VM?

Fabio
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Re: How do Fedora developers get access to devtoolset for testing.

[Steven Munroe]

Dave Love; writes:
...
> I'm pretty sure I said to do that a while ago, like I did when
> testing the trivial patch that I didn't expect to cause such trouble.

You probably did say so ;)

I come from a different culture and experience. I am not as conversant
in Fedorian as I should be. So I tend to misunderstand what is plain
to you all.

From my experience, installing (something like) devtoolset on Fedora
was not an outlandish idea, Apparently it is.

So installing a centos 7 VM instance on my local power8 seems like a
better option.

Thanks
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Re: How do Fedora developers get access to devtoolset for testing.

[Jonathan Wakely]

On 21/07/20 19:12 +0100, Dave Love wrote:

Jonathan Wakely  writes:


On 20/07/20 16:01 -0500, Steven Munroe wrote:

Jonathan Wakely wrote:

Why are you asking fedpkg to build for f33 if you are trying to
package something for el7 and el8?


I am trying to get better turn around for myself as I have local
access to a POWER8 machine. And I was having difficulty debug the
weird failure I was seeing.


Use mock to get a clean el7 build environment on the POWER8 machine.


I'm pretty sure I said to do that a while ago, like I did when testing
the trivial patch that I didn't expect to cause such trouble.

For what it's worth, the answer to the question, if it's CentOS, is to
install centos-release-scl-rh to provide the repo (which mock uses) and
the yum install devtoolset-gcc etc.  I don't have a RHEL instance
running to check the repo on that, but the incantation is documented.


https://developers.redhat.com/products/developertoolset/hello-world#fndtn-windows


If you can't do one of those, devtoolset is irrelevant.  In the patch it
was conditional on el7, and that passed %check on EPEL and Fedora, so I
don't understand this.


Yeah, the problems seem self-inflicted.

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Re: How do Fedora developers get access to devtoolset for testing.

[Dave Love]

Jonathan Wakely  writes:

> On 20/07/20 16:01 -0500, Steven Munroe wrote:
>>Jonathan Wakely wrote:
>>> Why are you asking fedpkg to build for f33 if you are trying to
>>> package something for el7 and el8?
>>
>>I am trying to get better turn around for myself as I have local
>>access to a POWER8 machine. And I was having difficulty debug the
>>weird failure I was seeing.
>
> Use mock to get a clean el7 build environment on the POWER8 machine.

I'm pretty sure I said to do that a while ago, like I did when testing
the trivial patch that I didn't expect to cause such trouble.

For what it's worth, the answer to the question, if it's CentOS, is to
install centos-release-scl-rh to provide the repo (which mock uses) and
the yum install devtoolset-gcc etc.  I don't have a RHEL instance
running to check the repo on that, but the incantation is documented.
If you can't do one of those, devtoolset is irrelevant.  In the patch it
was conditional on el7, and that passed %check on EPEL and Fedora, so I
don't understand this.
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Re: How do Fedora developers get access to devtoolset for testing.

[Kevin Kofler]

Jonathan Wakely wrote:
> Or just stop trying to install devtoolset on Fedora.

+1

I did not realize that the OP was trying to install the packages (directly) 
on a Fedora installation, as opposed to either a RHEL/CentOS installation or 
a RHEL/CentOS chroot within a Fedora installation. Obviously, that cannot 
work!

Kevin Kofler
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Re: How do Fedora developers get access to devtoolset for testing.

[Jonathan Wakely]

On 21/07/20 00:00 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote:

Steven Munroe wrote:

$ sudo dnf install devtoolset-9-gcc-9.3.1-2.el7.ppc64le.rpm
devtoolset-9-gcc-c++-9.3.1-2.el7.ppc64le.rpm
devtoolset-9-runtime-9.1-0.el7.ppc64le.rpm
devtoolset-9-libstdc++-devel-9.3.1-2.el7.ppc64le.rpm


Installing individual RPMs is a bad idea, because it means you have to
resolve all dependencies manually. Instead, you need to set up the linked
repository as a repository, then just sudo dnf install devtoolset-9-gcc-c++
and it will drag in everything it needs.


Or just stop trying to install devtoolset on Fedora.

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Re: How do Fedora developers get access to devtoolset for testing.

[Jonathan Wakely]

On 20/07/20 16:01 -0500, Steven Munroe wrote:

Jonathan Wakely wrote:

Why are you asking fedpkg to build for f33 if you are trying to
package something for el7 and el8?


I am trying to get better turn around for myself as I have local
access to a POWER8 machine. And I was having difficulty debug the
weird failure I was seeing.


Use mock to get a clean el7 build environment on the POWER8 machine.


That submits a build to koji, to build it using the packages
available in the f33 buildroot.


Yup "fedpkg --release epel7 scratch-build".  was also failing because
of some difference in the spelling of "*debug" files, that was unique
to el7 required a change in the spec file. A local build would have
been a lot quicker than koji


Maybe if it was possible, yes. But it's not possible without heroic
effort, and even then you'll have a mishmash of incompatible packages.
That's not reproducable or reliable or sensible.

The way to workaround a failure on --release epel7 builds is not to
turn your local system into something that is neither f33 nor epel7.



There are several ways to build for el7 or el8:


That helps thanks.


What you're trying to do now seems to be to create a
frankenstein system containing bits of fedora and bits of el7,


Well to me devtoolset looks a lot like the Advance Toolchain which I
have been using on Linux since 2013 It is available  on various
distros including Ubuntu and Fedora.


That doesn't mean you can install it on Fedora though.

The point of devtoolset is to get newer versions of toolchain packages
on RHEL and CentOS. There is no advantage to installing it on Fedora,
because Fedora already *has* newer toolchain pieces. Even newer than
are in the latest devtoolset releases. It could be made to work, but
would be pointless, and the devtoolset maintainers are not going to
invest their time in making it work. So you'd have to spend your time
doing a completely pointless port of devtoolset to Fedora, just to
enable you to do something ill-advised in the first place.

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Re: How do Fedora developers get access to devtoolset for testing.

[Kevin Kofler]

Steven Munroe wrote:
> $ sudo dnf install devtoolset-9-gcc-9.3.1-2.el7.ppc64le.rpm
> devtoolset-9-gcc-c++-9.3.1-2.el7.ppc64le.rpm
> devtoolset-9-runtime-9.1-0.el7.ppc64le.rpm
> devtoolset-9-libstdc++-devel-9.3.1-2.el7.ppc64le.rpm

Installing individual RPMs is a bad idea, because it means you have to 
resolve all dependencies manually. Instead, you need to set up the linked 
repository as a repository, then just sudo dnf install devtoolset-9-gcc-c++ 
and it will drag in everything it needs.

Kevin Kofler
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Re: How do Fedora developers get access to devtoolset for testing.

[Steven Munroe]

Jonathan Wakely wrote:
> Why are you asking fedpkg to build for f33 if you are trying to
> package something for el7 and el8?

I am trying to get better turn around for myself as I have local
access to a POWER8 machine. And I was having difficulty debug the
weird failure I was seeing.

> That submits a build to koji, to build it using the packages
> available in the f33 buildroot.

Yup "fedpkg --release epel7 scratch-build".  was also failing because
of some difference in the spelling of "*debug" files, that was unique
to el7 required a change in the spec file. A local build would have
been a lot quicker than koji

> There are several ways to build for el7 or el8:

That helps thanks.

> What you're trying to do now seems to be to create a
> frankenstein system containing bits of fedora and bits of el7,

Well to me devtoolset looks a lot like the Advance Toolchain which I
have been using on Linux since 2013 It is available  on various
distros including Ubuntu and Fedora.
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Re: How do Fedora developers get access to devtoolset for testing.

[Jonathan Wakely]

On 20/07/20 13:09 -0500, Steven Munroe wrote:

Then I would have to learn what a "EL7 mock chroot" is. And how it is


man mock


different from "rpmbuild "


That builds the package on your local system, using the packages
available on your local system. If that's Fedora, then you're not
going to be able to install devtoolset.


and "fedpkg  --release f33 scratch-build".


That submits a build to koji, to build it using the packages available
in the f33 buildroot. That's Fedora, so again, you're not going to be
able to make use of devtoolset (because it's not in the f33
buildroot).


The documentation is a bit sparse ...


I think you need to take a step back and figure out what you're doing.

Why are you asking fedpkg to build for f33 if you are trying to
package something for el7 and el8?

If you want to package something for el7 and/or el8, using the
packages present on el7 or el8, stop trying to build on Fedora.
They're not the same.

There are several ways to build for el7 or el8:

1) Install CentOS 7 (or 8) and then build locally. This can be on a
physical machine or VM.  But it's quite a heavyweight approach. There
are much simpler ways.

2) Build in a container using a CentOS 7 (or 8) image, using podman or
docker. That's less heavyweight than setting up a whole new machine,
but there are still easier ways.

3) Use mock to build locally in a chroot that contains the filesystem
and the packages from CentOS 7 (or 8). You can use the 'fedpkg
mockbuild' command to simplify that.

4) Use koji to build the package using the repos for CentOS 7 (or 8).
That's what 'fedpkg scratch-build' and 'fedpkg build' do, but you need
to tell koji which distro to use with --release epel7, not f33.

What you're trying to do now sems to be to create a frankenstein
system containing bits of fedora and bits of el7, then build on that
system.  That's a terrible idea. Even if you manage to bring the
monster to life, it will be a freak, and nobody else trying to build
your package will be using the same environment.

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Re: How do Fedora developers get access to devtoolset for testing.

[Steven Munroe]

On 20/07/20 17:08 +0100, Jonathan Wakely wrote:
...
Why can't you install it in an On 20/07/20 17:08 +0100, Jonathan Wakely wrote:
...
Why can't you install it in an EL7 mock chroot, as suggested earlier?
There's nothing special about devtoolset here, EL7 packages just
aren't meant to work on F32.

Then I would have to learn what a "EL7 mock chroot" is. And how it is
different from "rpmbuild " and "fedpkg  --release f33
scratch-build". The documentation is a bit sparse ...
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Re: How do Fedora developers get access to devtoolset for testing.

[Jonathan Wakely]

On 20/07/20 17:08 +0100, Jonathan Wakely wrote:

On 20/07/20 10:54 -0500, Steven Munroe wrote:

That looks like a more complete list. Still having problems with dependencies:

$ sudo dnf install devtoolset-9-gcc-9.3.1-2.el7.ppc64le.rpm
devtoolset-9-gcc-c++-9.3.1-2.el7.ppc64le.rpm
devtoolset-9-runtime-9.1-0.el7.ppc64le.rpm
devtoolset-9-libstdc++-devel-9.3.1-2.el7.ppc64le.rpm
Last metadata expiration check: 0:11:27 ago on Mon 20 Jul 2020 10:40:31 AM CDT.
Error:
Problem 1: conflicting requests
- nothing provides libmpfr.so.4()(64bit) needed by
devtoolset-9-gcc-9.3.1-2.el7.ppc64le
Problem 2: conflicting requests
- nothing provides libmpfr.so.4()(64bit) needed by
devtoolset-9-gcc-c++-9.3.1-2.el7.ppc64le

But:

$ sudo dnf install mpfr
Last metadata expiration check: 0:12:04 ago on Mon 20 Jul 2020 10:40:31 AM CDT.
Package mpfr-4.0.2-4.fc32.ppc64le is already installed.
Dependencies resolved.

So devtoolset must want a "special" mpfr but it is not obvious which
devtoolset package provides.


It's not special, it's just older.

The one in F32 provides libmpfr.so.6 IIRC, which is a different SONAME
to the one in EL7, so incompatible with the EL7 devtoolset.


Why can't you install it in an EL7 mock chroot, as suggested earlier?

There's nothing special about devtoolset here, EL7 packages just
aren't meant to work on F32.

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Re: How do Fedora developers get access to devtoolset for testing.

[Jonathan Wakely]

On 20/07/20 10:54 -0500, Steven Munroe wrote:

That looks like a more complete list. Still having problems with dependencies:

$ sudo dnf install devtoolset-9-gcc-9.3.1-2.el7.ppc64le.rpm
devtoolset-9-gcc-c++-9.3.1-2.el7.ppc64le.rpm
devtoolset-9-runtime-9.1-0.el7.ppc64le.rpm
devtoolset-9-libstdc++-devel-9.3.1-2.el7.ppc64le.rpm
Last metadata expiration check: 0:11:27 ago on Mon 20 Jul 2020 10:40:31 AM CDT.
Error:
Problem 1: conflicting requests
 - nothing provides libmpfr.so.4()(64bit) needed by
devtoolset-9-gcc-9.3.1-2.el7.ppc64le
Problem 2: conflicting requests
 - nothing provides libmpfr.so.4()(64bit) needed by
devtoolset-9-gcc-c++-9.3.1-2.el7.ppc64le

But:

$ sudo dnf install mpfr
Last metadata expiration check: 0:12:04 ago on Mon 20 Jul 2020 10:40:31 AM CDT.
Package mpfr-4.0.2-4.fc32.ppc64le is already installed.
Dependencies resolved.

So devtoolset must want a "special" mpfr but it is not obvious which
devtoolset package provides.


It's not special, it's just older.

The one in F32 provides libmpfr.so.6 IIRC, which is a different SONAME
to the one in EL7, so incompatible with the EL7 devtoolset.

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Re: How do Fedora developers get access to devtoolset for testing.

[Steven Munroe]

That looks like a more complete list. Still having problems with dependencies:

$ sudo dnf install devtoolset-9-gcc-9.3.1-2.el7.ppc64le.rpm
devtoolset-9-gcc-c++-9.3.1-2.el7.ppc64le.rpm
devtoolset-9-runtime-9.1-0.el7.ppc64le.rpm
devtoolset-9-libstdc++-devel-9.3.1-2.el7.ppc64le.rpm
Last metadata expiration check: 0:11:27 ago on Mon 20 Jul 2020 10:40:31 AM CDT.
Error:
 Problem 1: conflicting requests
  - nothing provides libmpfr.so.4()(64bit) needed by
devtoolset-9-gcc-9.3.1-2.el7.ppc64le
 Problem 2: conflicting requests
  - nothing provides libmpfr.so.4()(64bit) needed by
devtoolset-9-gcc-c++-9.3.1-2.el7.ppc64le

But:

$ sudo dnf install mpfr
Last metadata expiration check: 0:12:04 ago on Mon 20 Jul 2020 10:40:31 AM CDT.
Package mpfr-4.0.2-4.fc32.ppc64le is already installed.
Dependencies resolved.

So devtoolset must want a "special" mpfr but it is not obvious which
devtoolset package provides.
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Re: How do Fedora developers get access to devtoolset for testing.

[Kevin Kofler]

Steven Munroe wrote:

> Kevin Kofler wrote:
>>http://mirror.centos.org/centos/7/sclo/x86_64/rh/
> 
> I was looking for ppc64le but I think found a source at:
> 
> https://cbs.centos.org/koji/buildinfo?buildID=27175

The official location for ppc64le appears to be:
http://mirror.centos.org/altarch/7/sclo/ppc64le/rh/

Kevin Kofler
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Re: How do Fedora developers get access to devtoolset for testing.

[Steven Munroe]

Kevin Kofler wrote:
>http://mirror.centos.org/centos/7/sclo/x86_64/rh/

I was looking for ppc64le but I think found a source at:

https://cbs.centos.org/koji/buildinfo?buildID=27175

Thanks.
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Re: How do Fedora developers get access to devtoolset for testing.

[Kevin Kofler]

Steven Munroe wrote:
> So my project (pveclib) was requested for el7/8 which means building with
> devtoolset-9.
> 
> With a spec file enabled for el7, the local rpmbuild's fail if you don't
> have devtoolset installed. The error message was less than helpful.
> 
> So if you can use fedpkg scratch-build devtoolset is preinstalled.
> 
> But if you have bugs in your spec file (and as a newbie, I often do) then
> you also get failures with less than helpful status.
> 
> FAILED: BuildError: error building package (arch ppc64le), mock exited
> with status 1; see build.log or root.log for more information
> 
> In my case I had to remove all the el7 bits from my spec file and test
> with rpmbuild to find the problem.
> 
> So having devtoolset installed locally would be helpful.

http://mirror.centos.org/centos/7/sclo/x86_64/rh/

Kevin Kofler
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Re: How do Fedora developers get access to devtoolset for testing.

[Orion Poplawski]

On 7/17/20 3:03 PM, Steven Munroe wrote:
So my project (pveclib) was requested for el7/8 which means building 
with devtoolset-9.


With a spec file enabled for el7, the local rpmbuild's fail if you don't 
have devtoolset installed. The error message was less than helpful.


So if you can use fedpkg scratch-build devtoolset is preinstalled.

But if you have bugs in your spec file (and as a newbie, I often do) 
then you also get failures with less than helpful status.


FAILED: BuildError: error building package (arch ppc64le), mock exited with 
status 1; see build.log or root.log for more information

In my case I had to remove all the el7 bits from my spec file and test 
with rpmbuild to find the problem.


So having devtoolset installed locally would be helpful.

Thanks in advance


Do builds in mock, e.g.:

fedpkg --release epel7 mockbuild --no-cleanup-after


--
Orion Poplawski
Manager of NWRA Technical Systems  720-772-5637
NWRA, Boulder/CoRA Office FAX: 303-415-9702
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