Re: web-m and Fedora 14
On Saturday 22 May 2010 10:14:01 Thorsten Leemhuis wrote: On 20.05.2010 18:42, Jesse Keating wrote: On Thu, 2010-05-20 at 14:25 +0100, Bastien Nocera wrote: I'd expect most of the support to end up in F13 updates, so I'm not sure a feature page really makes sense. This happens with a lot of our features anyway, [...] And that imho is quite bad for everyone involved, as it kind of makes everyone unhappy afaics. To explain: Journalists (even those that are familiar with Fedora) can't know each and every details of Fedora and thus rely on those feature pages quite a lot. So after reading http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/KDE44 (¹) they might write (for example) something like One of the new interesting things in Fedora 13 is KDE 4.4 . But most people that already use KDE and Fedora 12 will know: that's nothing new, I already got that version via updates weeks ago. So they will think the journalists is not well informed, I don't need to read this article any further. Some might ever write to the journalist you wrote crap, this is nothing new. So he might be angry with the Fedora project, as the information it provided misguided him. That might influence his writing for later releases, which is not what we want. It's a common problem with journalists - I remember one review which was practically rewritten Fedora Features page. And guess what - one of the great feature wasn't even included in final Fedora (not fully :D). But there's difference - it's feature for F13 - it's going to include KDE 4.4.x as default one and thus it's a new feature. Default F12 image still ships the old one and you have to update. R. knurd (¹) Yes, that page contains Currently KDE 4.4.2 is packaged in the devel and Fedora 13 branches and also shipped in updates to Fedora 11 and 12.. But journalists are busy people and might not have time to read each and every feature page completely (and might miss is easily if they do). -- Jaroslav Řezník jrez...@redhat.com Software Engineer - Base Operating Systems Brno Office: +420 532 294 275 Mobile: +420 602 797 774 Red Hat, Inc. http://cz.redhat.com/ -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: web-m and Fedora 14
On 20.05.2010 18:42, Jesse Keating wrote: On Thu, 2010-05-20 at 14:25 +0100, Bastien Nocera wrote: I'd expect most of the support to end up in F13 updates, so I'm not sure a feature page really makes sense. This happens with a lot of our features anyway, [...] And that imho is quite bad for everyone involved, as it kind of makes everyone unhappy afaics. To explain: Journalists (even those that are familiar with Fedora) can't know each and every details of Fedora and thus rely on those feature pages quite a lot. So after reading http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/KDE44 (¹) they might write (for example) something like One of the new interesting things in Fedora 13 is KDE 4.4 . But most people that already use KDE and Fedora 12 will know: that's nothing new, I already got that version via updates weeks ago. So they will think the journalists is not well informed, I don't need to read this article any further. Some might ever write to the journalist you wrote crap, this is nothing new. So he might be angry with the Fedora project, as the information it provided misguided him. That might influence his writing for later releases, which is not what we want. CU knurd (¹) Yes, that page contains Currently KDE 4.4.2 is packaged in the devel and Fedora 13 branches and also shipped in updates to Fedora 11 and 12.. But journalists are busy people and might not have time to read each and every feature page completely (and might miss is easily if they do). -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: web-m and Fedora 14
Peter Robinson wrote: I don't see when the support lands in F-13 there couldn't be press statements about it, just because it appears after the release doesn't mean its not significant and isn't worth making a statement about. In fact this is a big failure of our feature process, but whenever I have brung this up in FESCo, the reaction of the other folks there was to threaten banning that kind of updates entirely. :-/ SARCASMYeah, wonderful idea, let's allow everyone else to advertise WebM support months before us/SARCASM just because the upstream release date happened to be at the worst possible point of our release cycle. :-/ Adding features in updates is needed. Our feature process needs to accomodate this. The current process is broken. Kevin Kofler -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: web-m and Fedora 14
Kevin Kofler said the following on 05/21/2010 02:21 AM Pacific Time: Peter Robinson wrote: I don't see when the support lands in F-13 there couldn't be press statements about it, just because it appears after the release doesn't mean its not significant and isn't worth making a statement about. In fact this is a big failure of our feature process, but whenever I have brung this up in FESCo, the reaction of the other folks there was to threaten banning that kind of updates entirely. :-/ SARCASMYeah, wonderful idea, let's allow everyone else to advertise WebM support months before us/SARCASM just because the upstream release date happened to be at the worst possible point of our release cycle. :-/ Adding features in updates is needed. Our feature process needs to accomodate this. The current process is broken. Kevin Kofler It's fine to suggest we need to do things differently, though it gets old and trolly when the message is repeated more times than is necessary for people to get the message. This mailing list is NOT the place to lament all the times people haven't listened to you or done what you thought was best. Instead of continuing to beat the same same horse you've killed a 100 times over on this list, have you considered looking for another distro or community project that is more aligned with your wishes and goals? John -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: web-m and Fedora 14
On Fri, 2010-05-21 at 13:47 -0400, Andy Gospodarek wrote: On Fri, May 21, 2010 at 11:21:01AM +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote: Peter Robinson wrote: I don't see when the support lands in F-13 there couldn't be press statements about it, just because it appears after the release doesn't mean its not significant and isn't worth making a statement about. In fact this is a big failure of our feature process, but whenever I have brung this up in FESCo, the reaction of the other folks there was to threaten banning that kind of updates entirely. :-/ SARCASMYeah, wonderful idea, let's allow everyone else to advertise WebM support months before us/SARCASM just because the upstream release date happened to be at the worst possible point of our release cycle. :-/ Adding features in updates is needed. Our feature process needs to accomodate this. The current process is broken. I'm not sure we need to push it all the way into F13, but a special WebM repo would be nice so this can be easily tested by any user on F13 systems in preparation for full 'support' in F14. Are there any plans to have Red Hat Legal look at the patent-freeness of WebM before we leap to include it? We don't take other people's word for it in most cases of potential patent problems, so I don't think it follows that we would just take Google's word for it in this case... -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: web-m and Fedora 14
On Fri, May 21, 2010 at 8:14 PM, Adam Williamson awill...@redhat.com wrote: On Fri, 2010-05-21 at 13:47 -0400, Andy Gospodarek wrote: On Fri, May 21, 2010 at 11:21:01AM +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote: Peter Robinson wrote: I don't see when the support lands in F-13 there couldn't be press statements about it, just because it appears after the release doesn't mean its not significant and isn't worth making a statement about. In fact this is a big failure of our feature process, but whenever I have brung this up in FESCo, the reaction of the other folks there was to threaten banning that kind of updates entirely. :-/ SARCASMYeah, wonderful idea, let's allow everyone else to advertise WebM support months before us/SARCASM just because the upstream release date happened to be at the worst possible point of our release cycle. :-/ Adding features in updates is needed. Our feature process needs to accomodate this. The current process is broken. I'm not sure we need to push it all the way into F13, but a special WebM repo would be nice so this can be easily tested by any user on F13 systems in preparation for full 'support' in F14. Are there any plans to have Red Hat Legal look at the patent-freeness of WebM before we leap to include it? We don't take other people's word for it in most cases of potential patent problems, so I don't think it follows that we would just take Google's word for it in this case... According to a comment on the actual bug [1] RH Legal has already reviewed it. Peter [1] https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=593879 -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: web-m and Fedora 14
On Fri, 2010-05-21 at 20:21 +0100, Peter Robinson wrote: Are there any plans to have Red Hat Legal look at the patent-freeness of WebM before we leap to include it? We don't take other people's word for it in most cases of potential patent problems, so I don't think it follows that we would just take Google's word for it in this case... According to a comment on the actual bug [1] RH Legal has already reviewed it. Thanks, I missed that one. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: web-m and Fedora 14
On Thu, 2010-05-20 at 14:25 +0100, Bastien Nocera wrote: snip * Gstreamer plugins - Is it separate? Is anyone looking into that? They're currently separate branches of the usual -base, -good, and -bad GStreamer plugins. They will be merged in the near future, and will probably land in F13 as soon as the merges are done, and releases happen. Those are some of the plugin reviews: https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=619103 https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=619102 Just missing the encoders/decoders. Cheers -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: web-m and Fedora 14
Bastien Nocera (bnoc...@redhat.com) said: Any grand plans? Should we put up a feature page? I'd expect most of the support to end up in F13 updates, so I'm not sure a feature page really makes sense. Well, it's probably useful to list it simply from a PR/marketing standpoint. Does totem-youtube need modified to automatically pick the right video format once the WebM video codecs land in gstreamer? Should we change the default in istanbul and similar services? Bill -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: web-m and Fedora 14
On Thu, 2010-05-20 at 10:03 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote: Bastien Nocera (bnoc...@redhat.com) said: Any grand plans? Should we put up a feature page? I'd expect most of the support to end up in F13 updates, so I'm not sure a feature page really makes sense. Well, it's probably useful to list it simply from a PR/marketing standpoint. Does totem-youtube need modified to automatically pick the right video format once the WebM video codecs land in gstreamer? Yes, it needs some changes, and some code to handle fallbacks as well... Should we change the default in istanbul and similar services? That depends on the encoder being available in GStreamer first. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: web-m and Fedora 14
On 05/20/2010 03:19 PM, Bruno Wolff III wrote: Expect a patent fight before the end of this. Excerpt from http://x264dev.multimedia.cx/?p=377 Addendum C: Summary for the lazy ... [a lot left out] With regard to patents, VP8 copies way too much from H.264 for anyone sane to be comfortable with it, no matter whose word is behind the claim of being patent-free. ... [a lot left out] Read the whole analysis...seems pretty interesting. -- Stanislav Ochotnicky sochotni...@redhat.com Associate Software Engineer - Base Operating Systems Brno PGP: 71A1677C Red Hat Inc. http://cz.redhat.com signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: web-m and Fedora 14
On 05/20/2010 08:38 PM, Stanislav Ochotnicky wrote: On 05/20/2010 03:19 PM, Bruno Wolff III wrote: Expect a patent fight before the end of this. Excerpt from http://x264dev.multimedia.cx/?p=377 Addendum C: Summary for the lazy ... [a lot left out] With regard to patents, VP8 copies way too much from H.264 for anyone sane to be comfortable with it, no matter whose word is behind the claim of being patent-free. ... [a lot left out] Read the whole analysis...seems pretty interesting. Understanding and reading patents requires expertise in that area. Don't trust engineers to do a good job with that. Rahul -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: web-m and Fedora 14
On Thu, 20 May 2010, Rahul Sundaram wrote: On 05/20/2010 08:38 PM, Stanislav Ochotnicky wrote: On 05/20/2010 03:19 PM, Bruno Wolff III wrote: Expect a patent fight before the end of this. Excerpt from http://x264dev.multimedia.cx/?p=377 Addendum C: Summary for the lazy ... [a lot left out] With regard to patents, VP8 copies way too much from H.264 for anyone sane to be comfortable with it, no matter whose word is behind the claim of being patent-free. ... [a lot left out] Read the whole analysis...seems pretty interesting. Understanding and reading patents requires expertise in that area. Don't trust engineers to do a good job with that. And don't go looking for patents that might read on the code you want to work on. If you never know about it your liability is less, aiui. ianal. -sv -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: web-m and Fedora 14
On Thu, 2010-05-20 at 14:25 +0100, Bastien Nocera wrote: I'd expect most of the support to end up in F13 updates, so I'm not sure a feature page really makes sense. This happens with a lot of our features anyway, but it does make a nice talking point and media splash to announce Fedora 14 is the first Fedora release to have working youtube out of the box, and all the other fun stuff webm gives us. -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- Freedom² is a feature! identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: web-m and Fedora 14
On Thu, 2010-05-20 at 10:03 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote: Bastien Nocera (bnoc...@redhat.com) said: Any grand plans? Should we put up a feature page? I'd expect most of the support to end up in F13 updates, so I'm not sure a feature page really makes sense. Well, it's probably useful to list it simply from a PR/marketing standpoint. I believe this kind of situation is why marketing has the 'talking points' concept. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: web-m and Fedora 14
On 05/20/2010 11:44 PM, Adam Williamson wrote: I believe this kind of situation is why marketing has the 'talking points' concept. ... which is derived from the feature list. Rahul -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: web-m and Fedora 14
On Thu, 2010-05-20 at 23:51 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: On 05/20/2010 11:44 PM, Adam Williamson wrote: I believe this kind of situation is why marketing has the 'talking points' concept. ... which is derived from the feature list. Yup. Derived from. The point is that it's *not* the same, so it can cover things that don't meet the criteria to be 'features' but which marketing would nevertheless like to talk about. AIUI, anyway, I might be off. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: web-m and Fedora 14
On Thu, 2010-05-20 at 11:28 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: On Thu, 2010-05-20 at 23:51 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: On 05/20/2010 11:44 PM, Adam Williamson wrote: I believe this kind of situation is why marketing has the 'talking points' concept. ... which is derived from the feature list. Yup. Derived from. The point is that it's *not* the same, so it can cover things that don't meet the criteria to be 'features' but which marketing would nevertheless like to talk about. AIUI, anyway, I might be off. And with the amount of coordination needed to make sure all the stuff is in the right place for making youtube work, that sounds like a feature to me. Something our testers could even target for testing. -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- Freedom² is a feature! identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: web-m and Fedora 14
2010/5/20 Conan Kudo (ニール・ゴンパ) ngomp...@gmail.com: It's too bad that we can't say that Fedora 13 has all these cool things. Fedora would get some considerable notoriety for being the first to fully support it. Then again, we cannot fully support it for HTML5 since Firefox doesn't have it... And Chromium is still not in the repositories. That leaves only the WebKitGtk+ based browsers that use GStreamer. Nevertheless, it would be great to have Fedora 13 be the first to be able to create .webm files. It's still really _raw_ at this point. There is a reason that all the example stuff for this is in development and preview builds. The library can only be built as a static lib righ now. There are what appear to be security relevant bugs getting fixed. It also needs some significant performance improvements before its useful at high resolutions (1080p decode of the parkjoy clip on my 2.8ghz x86_64 quad core is not realtime using all four cores :( ). The vp8 team at goggle had externally imposed deadline, and we know what those do to software quality. Just drop it in the repos post release once it's stable and fast enough to do something useful. Until then there is a lot of integration work needed, but shipping unfinished work won't make it happen faster... it'll just make life harder in the future when people are stuck working around the bugs in early versions that were widely deployed before they were ready. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
