Re: Size of official media handouts (was Re: Proposed F18 feature: MiniDebugInfo)
On 5/14/12 8:19 PM, Adam Williamson wrote: Well, the desktop team has said for a while that the thing they'd really want to add to the desktop image if they had more room is LibreOffice, but that requires substantially more than a few dozen MB. Basically, they consider saving a small amount of room to be more trouble than it's worth in most cases, but saving or creating a large amount of room to be very valuable, as it would allow the re-introduction of an office suite. AIUI, anyway. As it stands, the desktop image is actually usually several MB under 700, but not enough to put LO back in. As of just now, if I chop out the -libreoffice-* from fedora-livecd-desktop.ks and try to build an F16 live iso for amd64, I get something that's 794M. If I try the same thing for F17, I get 772M. Progress! Getting another 72M out of the image might be just barely possible, though assuredly a lot of work. Like, you could port the world to gtk3, but the gtk2 binary rpm (which I'm taking as a proxy for live image size since both are xz-compressed) is only 3.2M. - ajax -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Size of official media handouts (was Re: Proposed F18 feature: MiniDebugInfo)
On Mon, 2012-05-14 at 14:50 -0400, Adam Jackson wrote: > On Mon, 2012-05-14 at 13:48 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote: > > > I'm still a bit baffled that a 3.5 MB increase on a 700MB live image > > is considered a complete showstopper. That's one git package, for example; > > I would hope that creative dependency trimming can find that space. > > (Or reorganization of boot images, for example.) > > There's a modest amount of low-hanging fruit if people really cared > about image size. For example, here's a way to shrink the > (uncompressed) live filesystem by 30M: > > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=812975#c4 > > I do find the concern for difficult install scenarios to be noble, but I > would tend to class that as a different problem from producing a useful > live image that also happens to be installable. But clearly the > objection here is about "doing more work" more than "changing the image > size". Well, the desktop team has said for a while that the thing they'd really want to add to the desktop image if they had more room is LibreOffice, but that requires substantially more than a few dozen MB. Basically, they consider saving a small amount of room to be more trouble than it's worth in most cases, but saving or creating a large amount of room to be very valuable, as it would allow the re-introduction of an office suite. AIUI, anyway. As it stands, the desktop image is actually usually several MB under 700, but not enough to put LO back in. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Size of official media handouts (was Re: Proposed F18 feature: MiniDebugInfo)
> I'm still a bit baffled that a 3.5 MB increase on a 700MB live image > is considered a complete showstopper. ... Another place to check is the raw filesystem size before adding payload and before compressing. The unused space squashes "nicely" because it was created as zero on purpose, but still can occupy a significant fraction of a megabyte because each 128KB block is squashed separately. Start with a filesystem that is closer to the size of the total payload. -- -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Size of official media handouts (was Re: Proposed F18 feature: MiniDebugInfo)
On Mon, 2012-05-14 at 13:48 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote: > I'm still a bit baffled that a 3.5 MB increase on a 700MB live image > is considered a complete showstopper. That's one git package, for example; > I would hope that creative dependency trimming can find that space. > (Or reorganization of boot images, for example.) There's a modest amount of low-hanging fruit if people really cared about image size. For example, here's a way to shrink the (uncompressed) live filesystem by 30M: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=812975#c4 I do find the concern for difficult install scenarios to be noble, but I would tend to class that as a different problem from producing a useful live image that also happens to be installable. But clearly the objection here is about "doing more work" more than "changing the image size". - ajax signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Size of official media handouts (was Re: Proposed F18 feature: MiniDebugInfo)
Jaroslav Reznik (jrez...@redhat.com) said: > - Original Message - > > > > This being said I am +1 for 1 GB, but please note that I only speak > > Another thing - we realized that targeting 1 GB is non sense when we > have 700 MB, so we moved to 1.5 GB. There was a little difference and > no way to put everything on it. With 1 GB target and no 700 MB it > makes sense again (and to have the bigger one unlimited). How so? 700MB cutoff is for CDs. A 1GB cutoff is for USB sticks. I'm still a bit baffled that a 3.5 MB increase on a 700MB live image is considered a complete showstopper. That's one git package, for example; I would hope that creative dependency trimming can find that space. (Or reorganization of boot images, for example.) Bill -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Size of official media handouts (was Re: Proposed F18 feature: MiniDebugInfo)
On 05/14/2012 01:40 AM, Alexander Larsson wrote: > I understand that you want to ship isolated images for each of the > desktops in this combination image, as that is what is tested, etc. > However, there is gonna be a lot of duplicated bits in those images. > Can't we use some form of image where the duplicated blocks can be > shared. Seems like an obvious win to me. The format of an iso9660 directory makes it easy to share entire files: just set the first sector number of the contiguous extent. However the multi-session aspect of the "all-in-one" platter might put each session into its own "container", which might interfere with sharing across sessions. Intentional un-checked wrap-around comes to mind. -- -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Size of official media handouts (was Re: Proposed F18 feature: MiniDebugInfo)
- Original Message - > > This being said I am +1 for 1 GB, but please note that I only speak Another thing - we realized that targeting 1 GB is non sense when we have 700 MB, so we moved to 1.5 GB. There was a little difference and no way to put everything on it. With 1 GB target and no 700 MB it makes sense again (and to have the bigger one unlimited). R. > for > myself or the NA and EMEA ambassadors. > > Kind regards, > Christoph > > > -- > devel mailing list > devel@lists.fedoraproject.org > https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Size of official media handouts (was Re: Proposed F18 feature: MiniDebugInfo)
- Original Message - > Am Mittwoch, den 09.05.2012, 11:57 -0400 schrieb Adam Jackson: > > On Wed, 2012-05-09 at 11:45 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: > > > On Wed, 2012-05-09 at 13:35 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote: > > > > Alexander Larsson wrote: > > > > > The feature page lists some of the background and statistics. > > > > > It also > > > > > lists some options in how to implement this, which all have > > > > > various > > > > > different pros and cons. I'd like to hear what peoples > > > > > opinions on these > > > > > are. > > > > > > > > There is no room left on the KDE live image for installing any > > > > sort of > > > > debugging information by default. > > > > > > We could easily drop some of less-than-half-complete translations > > > to > > > make room for a bit of minidebuginfo. Last time I looked, > > > translations, > > > fonts, etc made up upwards of 25% of the livecd. Or we could just > > > drop > > > the obsolescent cdrom size limitation... > > > > I know I've said this before, but: we should break the CD size > > barrier > > precisely so people can't burn things to CDs. If you must burn to > > optical media, do yourself a favor and burn a DVD, the reduced seek > > time > > is entirely worth it. > > > > 1G fits on both the smallest MiniDVD format and most extant USB > > sticks. > > Let's do it already. > > As an ambassador and former EMEA media wrangler I tend to agree. > > Currently both EMEA and NA only do dual layer DVDs, both for live and > the installer. EMEA did separate installer vor i386 and x86_64, but > after NA had no problems with exclusively providing dual layer, we > decided to do the same. > > This being said I don't care how big we grow as long as we can still > fit > all 4 desktops (GNOME, KDE, Xfce, LXDE) in 2 arches each on one multi > desktop live image. A dual layer DVD has a maximum capacity of 8.5 > GB, > so fitting 8 x 1 GB is not a problem. > > We might have to drop Sugar, but if only GNOME and KDE go for 1 GB > and > Xfce and LXDE still target 700 MB or less, we should even be able to > keep it. > > This being said I am +1 for 1 GB, but please note that I only speak > for > myself or the NA and EMEA ambassadors. It's probably good idea to bring it on Ambassadors list - to ask non EMEA and NA ambassadors as they are closest to real users (and theirs needs to distribute stuff). R. > Kind regards, > Christoph > > > -- > devel mailing list > devel@lists.fedoraproject.org > https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Size of official media handouts (was Re: Proposed F18 feature: MiniDebugInfo)
On Fri, 2012-05-11 at 16:42 +0200, Christoph Wickert wrote: > Am Mittwoch, den 09.05.2012, 11:57 -0400 schrieb Adam Jackson: > > On Wed, 2012-05-09 at 11:45 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: > > > On Wed, 2012-05-09 at 13:35 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote: > > > > Alexander Larsson wrote: > > > > > The feature page lists some of the background and statistics. It also > > > > > lists some options in how to implement this, which all have various > > > > > different pros and cons. I'd like to hear what peoples opinions on > > > > > these > > > > > are. > > > > > > > > There is no room left on the KDE live image for installing any sort of > > > > debugging information by default. > > > > > > We could easily drop some of less-than-half-complete translations to > > > make room for a bit of minidebuginfo. Last time I looked, translations, > > > fonts, etc made up upwards of 25% of the livecd. Or we could just drop > > > the obsolescent cdrom size limitation... > > > > I know I've said this before, but: we should break the CD size barrier > > precisely so people can't burn things to CDs. If you must burn to > > optical media, do yourself a favor and burn a DVD, the reduced seek time > > is entirely worth it. > > > > 1G fits on both the smallest MiniDVD format and most extant USB sticks. > > Let's do it already. > > As an ambassador and former EMEA media wrangler I tend to agree. > > Currently both EMEA and NA only do dual layer DVDs, both for live and > the installer. EMEA did separate installer vor i386 and x86_64, but > after NA had no problems with exclusively providing dual layer, we > decided to do the same. > > This being said I don't care how big we grow as long as we can still fit > all 4 desktops (GNOME, KDE, Xfce, LXDE) in 2 arches each on one multi > desktop live image. A dual layer DVD has a maximum capacity of 8.5 GB, > so fitting 8 x 1 GB is not a problem. > > We might have to drop Sugar, but if only GNOME and KDE go for 1 GB and > Xfce and LXDE still target 700 MB or less, we should even be able to > keep it. I understand that you want to ship isolated images for each of the desktops in this combination image, as that is what is tested, etc. However, there is gonna be a lot of duplicated bits in those images. Can't we use some form of image where the duplicated blocks can be shared. Seems like an obvious win to me. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Size of official media handouts (was Re: Proposed F18 feature: MiniDebugInfo)
Am Mittwoch, den 09.05.2012, 11:57 -0400 schrieb Adam Jackson: > On Wed, 2012-05-09 at 11:45 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: > > On Wed, 2012-05-09 at 13:35 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote: > > > Alexander Larsson wrote: > > > > The feature page lists some of the background and statistics. It also > > > > lists some options in how to implement this, which all have various > > > > different pros and cons. I'd like to hear what peoples opinions on these > > > > are. > > > > > > There is no room left on the KDE live image for installing any sort of > > > debugging information by default. > > > > We could easily drop some of less-than-half-complete translations to > > make room for a bit of minidebuginfo. Last time I looked, translations, > > fonts, etc made up upwards of 25% of the livecd. Or we could just drop > > the obsolescent cdrom size limitation... > > I know I've said this before, but: we should break the CD size barrier > precisely so people can't burn things to CDs. If you must burn to > optical media, do yourself a favor and burn a DVD, the reduced seek time > is entirely worth it. > > 1G fits on both the smallest MiniDVD format and most extant USB sticks. > Let's do it already. As an ambassador and former EMEA media wrangler I tend to agree. Currently both EMEA and NA only do dual layer DVDs, both for live and the installer. EMEA did separate installer vor i386 and x86_64, but after NA had no problems with exclusively providing dual layer, we decided to do the same. This being said I don't care how big we grow as long as we can still fit all 4 desktops (GNOME, KDE, Xfce, LXDE) in 2 arches each on one multi desktop live image. A dual layer DVD has a maximum capacity of 8.5 GB, so fitting 8 x 1 GB is not a problem. We might have to drop Sugar, but if only GNOME and KDE go for 1 GB and Xfce and LXDE still target 700 MB or less, we should even be able to keep it. This being said I am +1 for 1 GB, but please note that I only speak for myself or the NA and EMEA ambassadors. Kind regards, Christoph -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
