Re: an "old-school *nix defaults" spin [was Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: swap on zram]
On 30 June 2020 16:52:52 CEST, Matthew Miller wrote: >On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 08:43:34AM +0200, Markus Larsson wrote: >> I have been using fedora since FC1 and there has been a few shifts. The >> latest shift seems to be a strong desire to be just another Ubuntu. That's >> fine, nothing wrong with that... Do we need more Ubuntus though? > >I don't know what it means to "be another Ubuntu". We're a different project >with a different structure and a different lineage. A distribution which has an aim to streamline the experience in order to cater to new users. Ubuntu is super good at this. > >Would I like the stuff we produce to be as popular as Ubuntu in terms of >user base? No -- I would like it to be more popular. And I think it's very >possible. I would like that too. > >I know change is hard. I used to be a grumpy sysadmin myself and I can >relate to a lot of what you're saying. But I don't think the "alienating >current users vs. attracting new users" dichotomy is a useful one. Many >current users will also benefit from and appreciate the proposed changes. Please don't go "change is hard" on me. That is what management do when they push for unpopular ideas. My problem isn't with change, my problem is with how the change is done and in some cases why the change is done. Change is not only inevitable it's also the only way things can get better. That doesn't mean that all changes are for the better. As for the "old users vs new users" not being useful, well, there's a few reasons why I'm still here. It's mainly that Fedora has good QA, SELinux and very current software. That suits me well for my home environment. What is pretty clear however, is that one can say "hold on how does this affect new users?" but "how does this affect current users?" isn't as interesting. I don't think the FOSS world needs another Ubuntu, Ubuntu already does that. I think Fedora can compete with that without giving up inclusiveness. There can be a Workstation edition that has sane defaults without hiding the fact that things can be configured. > >However, one size definitely does not fit all, and our strategy is designed >*precisely* to address that. Well ofc, but if there is going to be a new spin for every taste then the fragmentation will be a horrible. I'm a proponent of having a set of defaults and then having flexibility since that means people can coexist. But that also means that there needs to be flexibility in the install stage too. I used to be able just grab an ISO of getfedora in case of emergency and get a replacement machine up an running very quickly without much hassle because I could fix most things during the install stage. Now I have instead built kickstarts for the relevant machines and manage them via ansible. It's good sure but having to do it for my home environment is mildly annoying. So well, if I could find another distribution that is current, has good MAC and good QA I would probably use that. Problem is that it doesn't really exist and I like Fedora. I guess I'll just cover my own bases and mark workstation edition as Someone Elses Problem. > > ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: an "old-school *nix defaults" spin [was Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: swap on zram]
On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 08:43:34AM +0200, Markus Larsson wrote: > I have been using fedora since FC1 and there has been a few shifts. The > latest shift seems to be a strong desire to be just another Ubuntu. That's > fine, nothing wrong with that... Do we need more Ubuntus though? I don't know what it means to "be another Ubuntu". We're a different project with a different structure and a different lineage. Would I like the stuff we produce to be as popular as Ubuntu in terms of user base? No -- I would like it to be more popular. And I think it's very possible. I know change is hard. I used to be a grumpy sysadmin myself and I can relate to a lot of what you're saying. But I don't think the "alienating current users vs. attracting new users" dichotomy is a useful one. Many current users will also benefit from and appreciate the proposed changes. However, one size definitely does not fit all, and our strategy is designed *precisely* to address that. -- Matthew Miller Fedora Project Leader ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: an "old-school *nix defaults" spin [was Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: swap on zram]
On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 06:29:09PM -0700, John M. Harris Jr wrote: > On Monday, June 29, 2020 5:04:18 PM MST Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > Hi > > > > On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 4:40 PM Markus Larsson wrote: > > > Thanks, I am well aware. That wasn't really the topic here. > > > > If there is a repeated feeling that anyone has that a particular edition > > isn't what they are looking for, figuring out how to make a different set > > of choices is and perhaps forming a community around their preferences is > > pertinent. This isn't addressed just to you. Having said that, what do > > you consider is the topic? > > The possibility of the start of the Grumpy Old Neckbeard Spin (actual name > TBD). Name it Fedora Devuan. Nb. amount of negative stop-energy you demonstrate is huge. Could you please try to be more productive and on-topic? -- Tomasz Torcz 72->| 80->| to...@pipebreaker.pl 72->| 80->| ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: an "old-school *nix defaults" spin [was Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: swap on zram]
On 30 June 2020 02:04:18 CEST, Rahul Sundaram wrote: >Hi > >On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 4:40 PM Markus Larsson wrote: > >> >> Thanks, I am well aware. That wasn't really the topic here. >> > >If there is a repeated feeling that anyone has that a particular edition >isn't what they are looking for, figuring out how to make a different set >of choices is and perhaps forming a community around their preferences is >pertinent. This isn't addressed just to you. Having said that, what do >you consider is the topic? > >Rahul The topic at the moment was about how changes are made. It's also about highlighting that when a distribution goes all in on the hunt for new users one has to figure out if one wants to keep the old users. I have been using fedora since FC1 and there has been a few shifts. The latest shift seems to be a strong desire to be just another Ubuntu. That's fine, nothing wrong with that... Do we need more Ubuntus though? Regarding the language in the workstation target audience, well... I think it's narrow and that it shouldn't be. ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: an "old-school *nix defaults" spin [was Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: swap on zram]
On Monday, June 29, 2020 5:04:18 PM MST Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Hi > > On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 4:40 PM Markus Larsson wrote: > > Thanks, I am well aware. That wasn't really the topic here. > > If there is a repeated feeling that anyone has that a particular edition > isn't what they are looking for, figuring out how to make a different set > of choices is and perhaps forming a community around their preferences is > pertinent. This isn't addressed just to you. Having said that, what do > you consider is the topic? > > Rahul The possibility of the start of the Grumpy Old Neckbeard Spin (actual name TBD). -- John M. Harris, Jr. ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: an "old-school *nix defaults" spin [was Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: swap on zram]
Hi On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 4:40 PM Markus Larsson wrote: > > Thanks, I am well aware. That wasn't really the topic here. > If there is a repeated feeling that anyone has that a particular edition isn't what they are looking for, figuring out how to make a different set of choices is and perhaps forming a community around their preferences is pertinent. This isn't addressed just to you. Having said that, what do you consider is the topic? Rahul ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: an "old-school *nix defaults" spin [was Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: swap on zram]
On 29 June 2020 22:33:43 CEST, Rahul Sundaram wrote: >Hi > >On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 4:30 PM Markus Larsson wrote: > >> >> No that doesn't help at all. It doesn't address what I wrote about many >> seeing a problem for the first time when a change is suggested and that >> this leads to more heated debates than needed. >> I also feel alienated by the target audience of Workstation since it >> pretty much only talks about developers and others. > > >It may very well be the case that workstation isn't what you are looking >for. If you want to create your own remix or spin, one quick way to field >this is to create a package in copr or have an ansible playbook that sets >the defaults and configuration you want and gathering some feedback on >whether others find it useful. > >Rahul Thanks, I am well aware. That wasn't really the topic here. ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: an "old-school *nix defaults" spin [was Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: swap on zram]
Hi On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 4:30 PM Markus Larsson wrote: > > No that doesn't help at all. It doesn't address what I wrote about many > seeing a problem for the first time when a change is suggested and that > this leads to more heated debates than needed. > I also feel alienated by the target audience of Workstation since it > pretty much only talks about developers and others. It may very well be the case that workstation isn't what you are looking for. If you want to create your own remix or spin, one quick way to field this is to create a package in copr or have an ansible playbook that sets the defaults and configuration you want and gathering some feedback on whether others find it useful. Rahul ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: an "old-school *nix defaults" spin [was Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: swap on zram]
On 29 June 2020 21:50:50 CEST, Matthew Miller wrote: >On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 07:46:53PM +0200, Markus Larsson wrote: >> I think it would be beneficial to lift up the problems we're trying to >> solve and then work towards possible solutions. I don't think it even >> would take more time. I would probably help people commit to the problem >> and possibly accept the solution. It seems to me that many feel out of the >> loop and thus reacts stronger than needed. > >This is certainly one of the goals for the Editions strategy. Do > >* https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Workstation/Workstation_PRD#Target_Audience >* https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/CoreOS/PRD#Target_Market_.2F_Audience >* >https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Server/Product_Requirements_Document#Product_Objectives > >help? > > No that doesn't help at all. It doesn't address what I wrote about many seeing a problem for the first time when a change is suggested and that this leads to more heated debates than needed. I also feel alienated by the target audience of Workstation since it pretty much only talks about developers and others. I guess "you aren't part of the target audience" is a nicer than saying "take a hike neckbeard, this edition isn't even for you". I'm pretty sure that wasn't the intended message though but I can't figure out what the actual intended message was. Please help :) ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: an "old-school *nix defaults" spin [was Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: swap on zram]
On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 07:46:53PM +0200, Markus Larsson wrote: > I think it would be beneficial to lift up the problems we're trying to > solve and then work towards possible solutions. I don't think it even > would take more time. I would probably help people commit to the problem > and possibly accept the solution. It seems to me that many feel out of the > loop and thus reacts stronger than needed. This is certainly one of the goals for the Editions strategy. Do * https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Workstation/Workstation_PRD#Target_Audience * https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/CoreOS/PRD#Target_Market_.2F_Audience * https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Server/Product_Requirements_Document#Product_Objectives help? -- Matthew Miller Fedora Project Leader ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: an "old-school *nix defaults" spin [was Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: swap on zram]
On 29 June 2020 19:30:53 CEST, Matthew Miller wrote: >On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 07:18:00PM +0200, Markus Larsson wrote: >> I think most of these things could be solved in better ways, I don't think >> the "change request"-route is a good way to get the discussion started >> though. It tends to become mudslinging matches where those who proposed >> the changes feel obligated to defend them and others become outraged. > >Yeah, I don't like that pattern either: that's actually why I'm suggesting >this. Rather than say no to other people, say yes to your own thing. I think it would be beneficial to lift up the problems we're trying to solve and then work towards possible solutions. I don't think it even would take more time. I would probably help people commit to the problem and possibly accept the solution. It seems to me that many feel out of the loop and thus reacts stronger than needed. > ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: an "old-school *nix defaults" spin [was Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: swap on zram]
On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 07:18:00PM +0200, Markus Larsson wrote: > I think most of these things could be solved in better ways, I don't think > the "change request"-route is a good way to get the discussion started > though. It tends to become mudslinging matches where those who proposed > the changes feel obligated to defend them and others become outraged. Yeah, I don't like that pattern either: that's actually why I'm suggesting this. Rather than say no to other people, say yes to your own thing. -- Matthew Miller Fedora Project Leader ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: an "old-school *nix defaults" spin [was Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: swap on zram]
On 29 June 2020 18:44:46 CEST, Matthew Miller wrote: >On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 06:30:11PM +0200, Markus Larsson wrote: >> A spin feels like a commitment that involves gathering what other people >> feel and need. While I'm cautious about some changes I tend to welcome >> change in general. I just need to see the benefits and there needs to be >> reason to expect it to be successful. > >That's true, and I'll admit there's a little bit of "show me the money" in >my stance here. The argument for these changes is based on the desire to >provide a better experience for an intended audience. But a number of people >in these threads are putting forth the assertation that there is a >meaningful number of users (including Fedora contributors) who would >actually be better served by a different set of defaults. Well, there are. But the main gripe, for me, is that year for year the defaults keep changing always catering to someone that is not me. Generally not because I'm changing but because things are deemed not welcoming enough. The Workstation installer is a prime example. I'm not saying it's bad just that I feel that a working tool was taken from me and was replaced by something that satisfies my needs to a much lesser extent. I too see the need for being welcoming, I just wish it could be less heavy handed. I also see a bit of arrogance towards new users, that they will break down crying if there things that can be configured (yes hyperbolic but hyperbole is here used to show the pattern, I'm not saying that people are actually arguing that users fall into tears if displayed options). I think most of these things could be solved in better ways, I don't think the "change request"-route is a good way to get the discussion started though. It tends to become mudslinging matches where those who proposed the changes feel obligated to defend them and others become outraged. > >If there enough people who believe that and want to work on it, it should be >easy to find a core group of maintainers, go through the Change process to >propose it, and find an enthusiastic user-base. And I don't mean this in a >snarky way: it seems reasonable enough to me that there's a sustainable >level of interest. If there is, great! If there isn't, well, we also learn >something. This and the btrfs stuff combined with earlier changes at least got me going on finally setting up an auto deployment solution for my home environment. I just wish I didn't have to. > ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
an "old-school *nix defaults" spin [was Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: swap on zram]
On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 06:30:11PM +0200, Markus Larsson wrote: > A spin feels like a commitment that involves gathering what other people > feel and need. While I'm cautious about some changes I tend to welcome > change in general. I just need to see the benefits and there needs to be > reason to expect it to be successful. That's true, and I'll admit there's a little bit of "show me the money" in my stance here. The argument for these changes is based on the desire to provide a better experience for an intended audience. But a number of people in these threads are putting forth the assertation that there is a meaningful number of users (including Fedora contributors) who would actually be better served by a different set of defaults. If there enough people who believe that and want to work on it, it should be easy to find a core group of maintainers, go through the Change process to propose it, and find an enthusiastic user-base. And I don't mean this in a snarky way: it seems reasonable enough to me that there's a sustainable level of interest. If there is, great! If there isn't, well, we also learn something. -- Matthew Miller Fedora Project Leader ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
