Re: equivalent of Debian config-package?

[Stephen John Smoogen]

On 7 June 2018 at 12:11, Dave Love  wrote:
> Stephen John Smoogen  writes:
>


>> 4. System administration/configuration management is 99% "I have a
>> solution I endure and I don't have time to re-engineer it." and 1% "Oh
>> I think I want to write my own configuration management toolkit
>> because I can't endure what I am doing now." You are going to get
>> pushback from any site you are proposing this to until you show it is
>> useful for them.
>
> I'm not convinced I need Unix system management explaining after so
> long, or how my department works.

I missed the mark in what I was trying to explain as I should not have
used "you"

The part I was talking about is that there have been several "lets do
configuration management in rpms" little side projects. They ran into
problems because every site does things their own way and no one liked
how someone else did it.

Some people expect that the configurations are idempotent and
reversible. This means that rpm -e lab01-config brings the box back to
original state.
Other people expect that the configurations are interactive by the
user which can be done via debs but not rpm.
Others have made site wide decisions on language so ruby/perl/python
must be how the tool has to be written.
Then there are the disagreements on philosophies of RPMs altering
other RPMs with %pre/%post %trigger rules for updates of those
packages.

I have had to do each of the above at one point or another and it
usually made whatever tool I built only work at that site. What I have
seen done recently is that people were putting a puppet or ansible
config set in an rpm and then requiring that tool. It would then run a
"recipe"  in %post or via a cron job and would run a unset recipe in a
%preun. Still a bit racy but worked for small configs. It was still
site specific as how those recipes lined up were authors "how I expect
the world to be" versus some generic version.



-- 
Stephen J Smoogen.
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Re: equivalent of Debian config-package?

[Dave Love]

Neal Gompa  writes:

> The reason Ansible is used is because we have no current equivalent
> facilities to do delayed script execution or diversion of
> configuration files. Both are functions required for Debian-style
> configuration packages. Feel free to file an issue with rpm upstream[1]
> to figure out a good way to support configuration packages if you want it.

OK, thanks, though it sounds as if there's enough in recent rpm to
kludge it, and it's not likely to get much interest.

> On the flip side, because these facilities haven't existed for so long
> and the RPM ecosystem largely rejected interactive script hooks in
> RPMs, most packages ship with "working defaults" and are trivially
> reconfigurable through external automation tools, which is why mass
> provisioning and configuration management systems work so well for RPM
> based systems.

OK, but the application isn't specifically mass provisioning and
configuration.  It needs to be applicable to somewhat-random,
more-or-less autonomous existing installations which are already
expected to pull (rather problematically-written) packages from a
"local" repository.
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Re: equivalent of Debian config-package?

[Dave Love]

devzero2000  writes:

> Il gio 31 mag 2018, 13:42 Neal Gompa  ha scritto:
>
>> On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 6:54 AM Dave Love 
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > Is there any existing system for rpm like the Debian one
>> >  for building local
>> > configuration packages?  If not, would it be feasible to implement one?
>>
>> No such thing currently exists, because an equivalent to `dpkg-divert`
>> does not exist in RPM.
>>
>> It is technically possible to implement such a mechanism, but it does
>> not exist right now.
>>
>> A toy WIP never completed is here :
>>
>
> https://github.com/yersinia/rpm-gen-rpm-configuration

Thanks, though it doesn't look as if it would do what I was after.
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Re: equivalent of Debian config-package?

[Dave Love]

Stephen John Smoogen  writes:

> 1. Do not strip out who you are replying to. There are hundreds of
> people on this list and people come in at different times... and I am
> not sure who "You" was.

Apologies, it was a mistake due to Gnus configuration and replying
through Gmane; I understand mail lists.

> 2. Saying that Fedora/RH isn't interested by 1-2 comments is like me
> walking into Debian lists getting 1 person saying "noone would ever
> use Ansible" and assuming they speak for all of Debian.

I was responding to the project leader commenting on the Fedora answer,
but I put it too strongly while suffering from a strong virus.

> 4. System administration/configuration management is 99% "I have a
> solution I endure and I don't have time to re-engineer it." and 1% "Oh
> I think I want to write my own configuration management toolkit
> because I can't endure what I am doing now." You are going to get
> pushback from any site you are proposing this to until you show it is
> useful for them.

I'm not convinced I need Unix system management explaining after so
long, or how my department works.
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Re: equivalent of Debian config-package?

[Dave Love]

Josh Boyer  writes:

>> I guess we disagree about what the problem is, but it's unfortunate if
>> Fedora/RH isn't interested in the sort of environment for which
>> config-package was developed.
>
> Can you elaborate more on what that environment is?

A fairly large university (not as big as MIT) with on-campus and
off-campus systems, already installed or not, and centrally-managed or
not..

> I read the
> website you linked to, but I still don't understand how this wouldn't
> be similarly solved with Ansible.

Doubtless it could be done with Ansible, but than you have to bootstrap
and maintain Ansible as well as the rest of it, and worry about a
competing Ansible on some centrally-managed systems.

[If I was managing a bunch of centrally-managed on-campus systems like
teaching "clusters", I'd just use a stateless image, as for an HPC
cluster, and as used to work on such systems with ~zero resources other
than AFS knowledge.]
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Re: equivalent of Debian config-package?

[Neal Gompa]

On Tue, Jun 5, 2018 at 5:51 AM Dave Love  wrote:
>
> You wrote:
>
> > I think generally the Fedora/RH-ecosystem answer is to use Ansible for
> > configuration, rather than configuration packages.
> >
> > That's not sayin' there can't be another answer, but in general that's
> > the route *I'd* take to solve this problem on my systems.
>
> I guess we disagree about what the problem is, but it's unfortunate if
> Fedora/RH isn't interested in the sort of environment for which
> config-package was developed.

The reason Ansible is used is because we have no current equivalent
facilities to do delayed script execution or diversion of
configuration files. Both are functions required for Debian-style
configuration packages. Feel free to file an issue with rpm upstream[1]
to figure out a good way to support configuration packages if you want it.

On the flip side, because these facilities haven't existed for so long
and the RPM ecosystem largely rejected interactive script hooks in
RPMs, most packages ship with "working defaults" and are trivially
reconfigurable through external automation tools, which is why mass
provisioning and configuration management systems work so well for RPM
based systems.

[1]: https://github.com/rpm-software-management/rpm/issues


--
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Re: equivalent of Debian config-package?

[devzero2000]

Il gio 31 mag 2018, 13:42 Neal Gompa  ha scritto:

> On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 6:54 AM Dave Love 
> wrote:
> >
> > Is there any existing system for rpm like the Debian one
> >  for building local
> > configuration packages?  If not, would it be feasible to implement one?
>
> No such thing currently exists, because an equivalent to `dpkg-divert`
> does not exist in RPM.
>
> It is technically possible to implement such a mechanism, but it does
> not exist right now.
>
> A toy WIP never completed is here :
>

https://github.com/yersinia/rpm-gen-rpm-configuration

>
>
> --
> 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!
> ___
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>
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Re: equivalent of Debian config-package?

[Stephen John Smoogen]

On 4 June 2018 at 14:29, Dave Love  wrote:
> You wrote:
>
>> I think generally the Fedora/RH-ecosystem answer is to use Ansible for
>> configuration, rather than configuration packages.
>>
>> That's not sayin' there can't be another answer, but in general that's
>> the route *I'd* take to solve this problem on my systems.
>
> I guess we disagree about what the problem is, but it's unfortunate if
> Fedora/RH isn't interested in the sort of environment for which
> config-package was developed.

1. Do not strip out who you are replying to. There are hundreds of
people on this list and people come in at different times... and I am
not sure who "You" was.
2. Saying that Fedora/RH isn't interested by 1-2 comments is like me
walking into Debian lists getting 1 person saying "noone would ever
use Ansible" and assuming they speak for all of Debian.
3. There are people who do system management by rpm as can be seen by
various emails. Even Red Hat does so for the deployment of in the
field laptops who aren't getting regular checkins for a puppet or
ansible to work on.
4. System administration/configuration management is 99% "I have a
solution I endure and I don't have time to re-engineer it." and 1% "Oh
I think I want to write my own configuration management toolkit
because I can't endure what I am doing now." You are going to get
pushback from any site you are proposing this to until you show it is
useful for them.

So let us roll this discussion back a bit. There isn't an existing
system to do this. Most sites I have worked with roll their own using
different amounts of cron, config files, scripts in /usr/local/sbin
and rpms with %post/%pre and lots of %triggers. The ones who do this
would probably enjoy a tool which automated most of this work for
them, but they are all expecting someone else to write it for them.
And then because these solutions (even the Debian one) can go wrong
badly.. they are hesitant to use some other one until they see it
works.


-- 
Stephen J Smoogen.
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Re: equivalent of Debian config-package?

[Josh Boyer]

On Mon, Jun 4, 2018 at 2:29 PM Dave Love  wrote:
>
> You wrote:
>
> > I think generally the Fedora/RH-ecosystem answer is to use Ansible for
> > configuration, rather than configuration packages.
> >
> > That's not sayin' there can't be another answer, but in general that's
> > the route *I'd* take to solve this problem on my systems.
>
> I guess we disagree about what the problem is, but it's unfortunate if
> Fedora/RH isn't interested in the sort of environment for which
> config-package was developed.

Can you elaborate more on what that environment is?  I read the
website you linked to, but I still don't understand how this wouldn't
be similarly solved with Ansible.

josh
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Re: equivalent of Debian config-package?

[Dave Love]

You wrote: 

> Neal Gompa wrote:
>> No such thing currently exists, because an equivalent to `dpkg-divert`
>> does not exist in RPM.
>
> You are probably aware of this, but for the other readers of this thread:

I wasn't anyhow, thanks!

> File triggers can be (ab)used to do something like that, though it's not as 
> easy as running a `dpkg-divert` command, you have to build a dummy package 
> with a file trigger that munges the file.

Unfortunately they're not available on RHEL, which is the main target of
interest.
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Re: equivalent of Debian config-package?

[Dave Love]

You wrote: 

> I think generally the Fedora/RH-ecosystem answer is to use Ansible for
> configuration, rather than configuration packages.
>
> That's not sayin' there can't be another answer, but in general that's
> the route *I'd* take to solve this problem on my systems.

I guess we disagree about what the problem is, but it's unfortunate if
Fedora/RH isn't interested in the sort of environment for which
config-package was developed.
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Re: equivalent of Debian config-package?

[Kevin Kofler]

Neal Gompa wrote:
> No such thing currently exists, because an equivalent to `dpkg-divert`
> does not exist in RPM.

You are probably aware of this, but for the other readers of this thread:

File triggers can be (ab)used to do something like that, though it's not as 
easy as running a `dpkg-divert` command, you have to build a dummy package 
with a file trigger that munges the file.

An example of what you can do with file triggers:
https://svn.calcforge.org/viewvc/kannolo/trunk/packages/kannolo-root-unlocker/kannolo-root-unlocker.spec?revision=270&view=markup

And you can actually even modify packaged files in place with file triggers. 
I opted against doing that in kannolo-root-unlocker because it has some 
drawbacks (produces errors in rpm -V and makes delta RPMs not apply), which 
do however not apply if the files being munged by the file trigger are 
marked %config in the package actually owning them.

Kevin Kofler
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Re: equivalent of Debian config-package?

[Matthew Miller]

On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 03:23:04PM +0100, Dave Love wrote:
> > No such thing currently exists, because an equivalent to `dpkg-divert`
> > does not exist in RPM.
> > It is technically possible to implement such a mechanism, but it does
> > not exist right now.
> Thanks.  I assume even if it was feasible to work on it, it wouldn't
> appear in current RHEL, which would be the main target in this case.

I think generally the Fedora/RH-ecosystem answer is to use Ansible for
configuration, rather than configuration packages.

That's not sayin' there can't be another answer, but in general that's
the route *I'd* take to solve this problem on my systems.

-- 
Matthew Miller

Fedora Project Leader
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Re: equivalent of Debian config-package?

[Neal Gompa]

On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 10:23 AM Dave Love  wrote:
>
> Neal Gompa  writes:
>
> > No such thing currently exists, because an equivalent to `dpkg-divert`
> > does not exist in RPM.
> >
> > It is technically possible to implement such a mechanism, but it does
> > not exist right now.
>
> Thanks.  I assume even if it was feasible to work on it, it wouldn't
> appear in current RHEL, which would be the main target in this case.

Sure, but maybe next RHEL? ;)



-- 
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Re: equivalent of Debian config-package?

[Dave Love]

Neal Gompa  writes:

> No such thing currently exists, because an equivalent to `dpkg-divert`
> does not exist in RPM.
>
> It is technically possible to implement such a mechanism, but it does
> not exist right now.

Thanks.  I assume even if it was feasible to work on it, it wouldn't
appear in current RHEL, which would be the main target in this case.
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Re: equivalent of Debian config-package?

[Neal Gompa]

On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 6:54 AM Dave Love  wrote:
>
> Is there any existing system for rpm like the Debian one
>  for building local
> configuration packages?  If not, would it be feasible to implement one?

No such thing currently exists, because an equivalent to `dpkg-divert`
does not exist in RPM.

It is technically possible to implement such a mechanism, but it does
not exist right now.



-- 
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equivalent of Debian config-package?

[Dave Love]

Is there any existing system for rpm like the Debian one
 for building local
configuration packages?  If not, would it be feasible to implement one?
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