Orphaned rubygem-rack-restful_submit

2025-06-10 Thread Vít Ondruch

I have decided to orphan rubygem-rack-restful_submit for multiple reasons:

* It would need adjustments for Rack 3.x (which will come to Fedora 
together with Ruby on Rails 8).


* Upstream has long abandoned this package (have not accepted the fixes 
for Rack 2.x [1])


* I have no use for this package.


Vít



[1]: https://github.com/martincik/rack-restful_submit/pull/6



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Re: Remove openh264?

2025-06-10 Thread Kevin Kofler via devel
Leigh Scott wrote:
> x264 is superior for playback,

Playback in the FFmpeg/libx264 stack is actually done by a builtin decoder 
in FFmpeg, NOT by libx264. FFmpeg has no builtin H.264 encoder. libx264 has 
no decoder. So they have to be used together. (But both are actually more 
featureful than the corresponding half of OpenH264.)

> Most users would be better served using gstreamer1-plugins-ugly and
> ffmpeg-libs from rpmfusion.

And so you also need gstreamer1-plugin-libav (which is actually built 
against FFmpeg, not the libav fork) in addition to gstreamer1-plugins-ugly.

Kevin Kofler

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Re: Remove openh264?

2025-06-10 Thread drago01
The whole topic would have been much easier if we didn't decide to remove
hardware de/encoders a few releases ago.

The number of users needing openh264 would shrink significantly.
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Re: F43 Change Proposal: Deprecate RPM Macros for setup.py-based Python Builds (self-contained)

2025-06-10 Thread Miro Hrončok

On 10. 06. 25 8:46, Leigh Scott wrote:

The new macros are unlikely to work for nemo-extensions.


What makes you assume that?

https://src.fedoraproject.org/rpms/nemo-extensions/pull-request/7


I will probably end up defining my own macros in it's spec file.


If your custom macros will use python setup.py install, they will beak when 
setuptools removes that. We will not be removing the deprecated macros before 
then, so defining your own macros has no point.


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Re: F43 Change Proposal: Deprecate RPM Macros for setup.py-based Python Builds (self-contained)

2025-06-10 Thread Leigh Scott
Miro Hrončok wrote:
> On 10. 06. 25 8:46, Leigh Scott wrote:
> > The new macros are unlikely to work for nemo-extensions.
> > What makes you assume that?
> https://src.fedoraproject.org/rpms/nemo-extensions/pull-request/7

I couldn't figure out how to use the new macros with the multiple python 
sources.
Thank you for the PR.
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Inquiry About Fedora Models

2025-06-10 Thread Lee Thomas Stephen
Hi everyone,

Will there be a version similar to this one:
https://huggingface.co/RedHatAI for Fedora?

Thank you!

Best,
-
Lee
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Fedora 43 Python 3.14 mass rebuild status

2025-06-10 Thread Karolina Surma

Hello,

The Python 3.14 rebuild is in progress. We plan to merge the side tag soon.

So far, we've successfully built 3682 out of 4259 source packages, with
577 remaining to be built.
See the list of packages sorted by maintainers at the end of this mail.

If your package fails because there is a non-dependency problem, you
might have already received a bugzilla from us in the past. If the build
failure is related to changes in Python 3.14, it should contain some
hints about the problem. If you haven't received a bugzilla from us yet,
feel free to open a new one and block the PYTHON3.14 tracking bug.

You can verify your package builds with Python 3.14 via a scratch build:

$ koji build --scratch f43-python 

or

$ fedpkg build --scratch --target f43-python

If successful, you can submit a build to the side tag from the rawhide
branch in dist-git repository via:

$ fedpkg build --target f43-python

Please, don't build Python packages in regular rawhide now.

After the side tag is merged, we'll let you know when it's safe to build
in regular rawhide again.
The remaining failures can be fixed afterwards.

Karolina

Maintainers by package:
APLpysergiopr
DisplayCAL   jistone ngompa
Mayavi   orion
ansible-lint pnemade
ara  dmsimard
asv  qulogic
audiotubethunderbirdtr
avogadro2-libs   sagitter
awscli2  davdunc nforro
azure-clijcline
bandit   mikelo2 misc
binwalk  ajax swt2c
blender  design-sw ignatenkobrain luya music slaanesh
bodhi-server abompard humaton lenkaseg
borgbackup   fschwarz
bout++   davidsch
buildbot besser82 ignatenkobrain limb ngompa radez
buildstream  atim jjardon
calibre  chkr kevin zbyszek
cantera  fuller sic
capstone rebus ret2libc
certbot  nb
cfn-lint music
chirpjskarvad
cjdnssdgathman
conda-build  orion
copr-backend frostyx msuchy praiskup
cozy suve
criu adrian rstoyanov
cura churchyard
diceware kushal
did  lzachar psss
diffoscope   zbyszek
distro-info  suraia
dlib principis thunderbirdtr
dolfin   zbyszek
duplicitylimb
dxf2gcodedwrobel
electrum js
emacs-jedi   melmorabity
eric yselkowitz
fastapi-cli  music pwouters rominf
fawltydeps   gui1ty
fedrqgotmax23
fontmake music
gingasergiopr
git-filter-repo  asn salimma
glances  aekoroglu jonathanspw
gnofract4d   yselkowitz
go-vendor-tools  gotmax23
go2rpm   alexsaezm eclipseo gotmax23 mikelo2
google-api-python-client limb mbaldessari mikelo2
gr-air-modes jskarvad
gr-funcube   jskarvad
gr-hpsdr jskarvad
gr-iqbal jskarvad
gr-osmosdr   cottsay jskarvad
gr-rds   jskarvad sharkcz
grpc defolos neil
httpie   churchyard mikelo2
ikiwiki  thm
input-remapper   alexpl
kittyatim jonathanspw solopasha zawertun
kiwi-boxed-pluginngompa
kmymoney rdieter vascom
kurchu   ngompa
kvircnucleo
libarcus churchyard
libpeas  amigadave kalev
libunity rdieter
lilv nphilipp tartina
linode-cli   cicku mikelo2 nb
liquidctlsuve
lutris   bunnyapocalypse farchord
mailman3 ngompa salimma
mailman3-fedmsg-plugin abompard
matrix-synapse   dcallagh v02460
mirrormanager2   abompard
mkdocs-material  dcavalca
monkeytype   dcavalca salimma
mopidy   girst
mopidy-mpd   girst
mrchem   jussilehtola
mu   churchyard kushal
muse oget
myst-nb  jjames
nanopb   topazus
nordugrid-arcellert
novelwriter  fed500
nvme-stastbzatek
ocrmypdf qulogic
odcs cqi hlin lsedlar qwan
onnx aalvarez dherrera
openapi-python-client dogukancagatay
opencv   hhorak jkucera jridky kwizart
openms   sagitter
openvino aekoroglu
packit   lachmanfrantisek lbarczio mfocko mmassari nforro 
nikromen ttomecek

paraview orion sagitter
patool   eclipseo
pcp  agerstmayr fberat jkurik lchilton nathans samfeifer 
wcohen

pcs  cfeist idevat mlisik mpospisi omular tojeline
petscsagitter
picard   alexlan cicku gbcox
poezio   orphan
protobuf adrian jonathanspw mizdebsk orion salimma
psi4 jussilehtola
pychess  bruno dcavalca
pychromecast pbrobin

Re: Packaging sccache – collaborator request!

2025-06-10 Thread Cristian Le via devel


On 10 June 2025 20:15:25 CEST, "Marcus Müller"  wrote:
> - the spec generated by rust2rpm doesn't tell me much; an rpmbuild of the 
>result lists about 100 missing dependencies of the kind "crate(base64/default)"

Most dependencies are actually already packaged, but upstream is outdated (see 
rust-base64 version for example). Maybe start by trying to resolve most of the 
dependabot PRs upstream. Although upstream's head CI is broken, so it seems it 
will be a journey.
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Re: Packaging sccache – collaborator request!

2025-06-10 Thread Fabio Valentini
On Tue, Jun 10, 2025, 20:41 Cristian Le via devel <
devel@lists.fedoraproject.org> wrote:

>
>
> On 10 June 2025 20:15:25 CEST, "Marcus Müller"  wrote:
> > - the spec generated by rust2rpm doesn't tell me much; an rpmbuild of
> the result lists about 100 missing dependencies of the kind
> "crate(base64/default)"
>
> Most dependencies are actually already packaged, but upstream is outdated
> (see rust-base64 version for example). Maybe start by trying to resolve
> most of the dependabot PRs upstream. Although upstream's head CI is broken,
> so it seems it will be a journey.
>

There is an in-progress package review for sccache already:
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=2362051

It's currently being built with a few features disabled because they would
pull in a lot more dependencies, but those can get enabled piece by piece
as needed later.

Fabio


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Re: F43 Change Proposal: Deprecate RPM Macros for setup.py-based Python Builds (self-contained)

2025-06-10 Thread Miro Hrončok

On 10. 06. 25 13:59, Cristian Le via devel wrote:

I believe some clarification for this proposal is in order


What kind of clarification do you think is needed?


On 2025/06/07 14:49, Aoife Moloney wrote:


Old:

  %build
  %py3_build

New:

  %build
  %pyproject_wheel


The %py3_build expands to `python3 setup.py build` [1] which is the interface 
that is being removed. %pyproject_wheel expands to `pip wheel` [2], which will 
read setup.py and build (presumably without calling the removed interface). 


More or less, yes. It might not read setup.py if pyproject.toml says otherwise. 
But for 99.9 % packages that worked with %py3_build, this is the case, yes.


Do you believe such technical detail needs to be in the proposal?

That's why changing the interface to %pyproject_wheel would be enough, as long 
as pip would be working properly with the new setuptools (should not give a 
deprecation warning if run currently).


Well, that's not enough, because then you *also* need to use 
%pyproject_buildrequires and %pyproject_install. (As shown in the example in 
the proposal.)


But using the 3 macros (and updating the %files section from egg-info to 
dist-info) instead of the removed 2 is indeed enough, yes.


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No FESCo meeting today

2025-06-10 Thread Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek
Hi!

We have nothing on the agenda. Also no tickets to announce here.
And many people are travelling to DevConf.cz. The meeting is
cancelled today.

Zbyszek
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Orphaning rubygem-shoulda-matchers

2025-06-10 Thread Vít Ondruch
Current version of rubygem-shoulda-matchers will get broken by Ruby on 
Rails 8 and it would need updated. But because nothing else depends on 
this package anymore, I have decided to orphan in instead.


Cheers,


Vít



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Fedora rawhide compose report: 20250610.n.0 changes

2025-06-10 Thread Fedora Rawhide Report
OLD: Fedora-Rawhide-20250609.n.0
NEW: Fedora-Rawhide-20250610.n.0

= SUMMARY =
Added images:0
Dropped images:  0
Added packages:  2
Dropped packages:0
Upgraded packages:   58
Downgraded packages: 0

Size of added packages:  45.84 KiB
Size of dropped packages:0 B
Size of upgraded packages:   1.30 GiB
Size of downgraded packages: 0 B

Size change of upgraded packages:   -149.52 KiB
Size change of downgraded packages: 0 B

= ADDED IMAGES =

= DROPPED IMAGES =

= ADDED PACKAGES =
Package: perl-Config-Onion-1.007-2.fc43
Summary: Layered configuration, because configs are like ogres
RPMs:perl-Config-Onion
Size:25.72 KiB

Package: perl-Dispatch-Class-0.04-1.fc43
Summary: Dispatch on the type (class) of an argument
RPMs:perl-Dispatch-Class
Size:20.12 KiB


= DROPPED PACKAGES =

= UPGRADED PACKAGES =
Package:  alglib-4.05.0-1.fc43
Old package:  alglib-4.04.0-3.fc43
Summary:  A numerical analysis and data processing library
RPMs: alglib alglib-devel alglib-doc
Size: 10.61 MiB
Size change:  317.89 KiB
Changelog:
  * Mon Jun 09 2025 Sandro Mani  - 4.05.0-1
  - Update to 4.05.0


Package:  backintime-1.5.5-1.fc43
Old package:  backintime-1.5.4-1.fc43
Summary:  Simple backup tool inspired from the Flyback project and TimeVault
RPMs: backintime-common backintime-plugins backintime-qt
Size: 892.86 KiB
Size change:  -508 B
Changelog:
  * Mon Jun 09 2025 Johannes Lips  - 1.5.5-1
  - update to latest upstream release


Package:  bpftrace-0.23.5-1.fc43
Old package:  bpftrace-0.23.0-1.fc43
Summary:  High-level tracing language for Linux eBPF
RPMs: bpftrace
Size: 8.58 MiB
Size change:  39.77 KiB
Changelog:
  * Mon Jun 09 2025 Augusto Caringi  - 0.23.5-1
  - Rebased to version 0.23.5


Package:  bwping-2.6-2.fc43
Old package:  bwping-2.5-7.fc42
Summary:  Measure bandwidth and response times using ICMP
RPMs: bwping
Size: 89.11 KiB
Size change:  -813 B
Changelog:
  * Mon Jun 09 2025 Alessio  - 2.6-1
  - Update to 2.6

  * Mon Jun 09 2025 Alessio  - 2.6-2
  - Update to 2.6


Package:  cups-filters-1:2.0.1-6.fc43
Old package:  cups-filters-1:2.0.1-5.fc43
Summary:  OpenPrinting CUPS filters for CUPS 2.X
RPMs: cups-filters cups-filters-driverless
Size: 934.40 KiB
Size change:  1.65 KiB
Changelog:
  * Mon Jun 09 2025 Zdenek Dohnal  - 1:2.0.1-6
  - CUPS restart has to happen after universal filter is gone for good (in 
posttrans) (fedora#2370978)


Package:  fedora-upgrade-42.2-1.fc43
Old package:  fedora-upgrade-42.1-1.fc43
Summary:  Upgrade Fedora to next version using dnf upgrade (unofficial tool)
RPMs: fedora-upgrade remove-retired-packages
Size: 41.31 KiB
Size change:  85 B
Changelog:
  * Mon Jun 09 2025 Miroslav Such??  42.2-1
  - do not check if F42 is prerelease


Package:  frama-c-30.0-11.fc43
Old package:  frama-c-30.0-10.fc43
Summary:  Framework for source code analysis of C software
RPMs: frama-c frama-c-doc frama-c-emacs
Size: 888.91 MiB
Size change:  -1017.79 KiB
Changelog:
  * Mon Jun 09 2025 Jerry James  - 30.0-11
  - Rebuild for why3 1.8.1


Package:  frescobaldi-4.0.3-1.fc43
Old package:  frescobaldi-4.0.2-1.fc43
Summary:  Edit LilyPond sheet music with ease!
RPMs: frescobaldi
Size: 6.98 MiB
Size change:  -8.22 KiB
Changelog:
  * Wed Jun 04 2025 Python Maint  - 4.0.2-2
  - Rebuilt for Python 3.14

  * Mon Jun 09 2025 Gwyn Ciesla  - 4.0.3-1
  - 4.0.3


Package:  golang-github-elliotchance-orderedmap-3.1.0-1.fc43
Old package:  golang-github-elliotchance-orderedmap-2.0.1-9.fc42
Summary:  An ordered map in Go with O(1) for Set, Get, Delete and Len
RPMs: golang-github-elliotchance-orderedmap-devel
Size: 19.54 KiB
Size change:  2.81 KiB
Changelog:
  * Mon Jun 09 2025 Julien Rische  - 3.1.0-1
  - Rebase to version 3.1.0
Resolves: rhbz#2124117


Package:  gram_grep-0.9.8-1.fc43
Old package:  gram_grep-0.9.7-1.fc43
Summary:  Search text using a grammar, lexer, or straight regex
RPMs: gram_grep
Size: 2.08 MiB
Size change:  19.25 KiB
Changelog:
  * Sun May 11 2025 Benjamin A. Beasley  - 0.9.8-1
  - Update to 0.9.8


Package:  kbd-2.8.0-1.fc43
Old package:  kbd-2.7.1-3.fc42
Summary:  Tools for configuring the console (keyboard, virtual terminals, 
etc.)
RPMs: kbd kbd-legacy kbd-misc
Size: 3.73 MiB
Size change:  -61.95 KiB
Changelog:
  * Mon Jun 09 2025 Vitezslav Crhonek  - 2.8.0-1
  - Update to kbd-2.8.0
Resolves: #2369419


Package:  kryoptic-1.2.0-1.fc43
Old package:  kryoptic-1.1.0-1.fc43
Summary:  PKCS #11 software token written in Rust
RPMs: kryoptic kryoptic-tools
Size: 4.39 MiB
Size change:  141.91 KiB
Changelog:
  * Mon Jun 09 2025 Jakub Jelen  - 1.2.0-1
  - kryoptic-1.2.0-1 (#2371228)


Package:  libeconf-0.7.9-1.fc43
Old package

Re: Dropping i686 from NodeJS build architectures

2025-06-10 Thread Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek
On Tue, Jun 10, 2025 at 03:17:56PM +0200, Jan Stanek wrote:
> Hello everyone!
> Recently, we tried to enable the upstream test suite to be run when
> building NodeJS packages, and we ran into a Y2038 bug (see [1] for the
> moment we noticed it). There are also some upstream issues [2] related
> to this problem on 32-bit architectures.
> 
> [1]: 
> https://src.fedoraproject.org/rpms/nodejs22/pull-request/10#comment-251188
> [2]: https://github.com/nodejs/node/issues/45906
> 
> After discussing with upstream, it turns out that they do not provide
> i686 builds, and they generally do not seem to support 32-bit
> architectures any more. In light of this revelation, I would like to
> propose dropping the i686 architecture from the `%nodejs_arches` macro
> and thus consequently from the builds of all NodeJS related software.
> 
> While the general rebuild can be hopefully handled by me or my team in
> a side-tag, I know that nodejs is used in builds of other software
> (Firefox comes to mind as an example). If you are a consumer of nodejs
> in any way, would the drop affect you in any way? If so, do you have
> an idea what we can do to help alleviate the problems?

It'd help a lot to compile a list of affected packages using
repoquery… Without that it's hard to give any definite answers.
FWIW, firefox is not compiled for i386 [1].

[1] https://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/buildinfo?buildID=2722308

Zbyszek
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Re: Inquiry About Fedora Models

2025-06-10 Thread JT
You can run vllm, instructlab, etc on Fedora.  It just won't be bundled
together and won't be tightly coupled with Red Hat's other offerings in the
way that it would be on RHEL AI.
There is a Fedora AI SIG:  https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/AI-ML
As well as a Matrix channel: #ai-ml:fedoraproject.org

On Tue, Jun 10, 2025 at 9:23 AM Josh Boyer 
wrote:

> On Tue, Jun 10, 2025 at 5:32 AM Lee Thomas Stephen 
> wrote:
> >
> > Hi everyone,
> >
> > Will there be a version similar to this one:
> > https://huggingface.co/RedHatAI for Fedora?
>
> I am not aware of any Fedora community projects around creating,
> tuning, distilling, or otherwise optimizing models, so it's unlikely.
>
> josh
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Re: F43 Change Proposal: Deprecate RPM Macros for setup.py-based Python Builds (self-contained)

2025-06-10 Thread Miro Hrončok

On 10. 06. 25 15:15, Cristian Le via devel wrote:

Could also document that a minimal pyproject.toml can be added as
```
[build-system]
requires = ["setuptools"]
build-backend = "setuptools.build_meta"
```

I've seen those around, but I don't know if it actually makes a difference in 
these context.


Adding such pyproject.toml has no benefit. It's more or less the same as not 
having it (except the default backend in that case is 
setuptools.build_meta:__legacy__, but I don't think it's any different).


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Fedora Matrix: mhroncok

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Re: F43 Change Proposal: Deprecate RPM Macros for setup.py-based Python Builds (self-contained)

2025-06-10 Thread Cristian Le via devel

I believe some clarification for this proposal is in order

On 2025/06/07 14:49, Aoife Moloney wrote:


Old:

  %build
  %py3_build

New:

  %build
  %pyproject_wheel


The %py3_build expands to `python3 setup.py build` [1] which is the 
interface that is being removed. %pyproject_wheel expands to `pip wheel` 
[2], which will read setup.py and build (presumably without calling the 
removed interface). That's why changing the interface to 
%pyproject_wheel would be enough, as long as pip would be working 
properly with the new setuptools (should not give a deprecation warning 
if run currently).


[1]: 
https://src.fedoraproject.org/rpms/python-rpm-macros/blob/rawhide/f/macros.python3#_46
[2]: 
https://src.fedoraproject.org/rpms/pyproject-rpm-macros/blob/rawhide/f/pyproject_wheel.py#_46


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Dropping i686 from NodeJS build architectures

2025-06-10 Thread Jan Stanek
Hello everyone!
Recently, we tried to enable the upstream test suite to be run when
building NodeJS packages, and we ran into a Y2038 bug (see [1] for the
moment we noticed it). There are also some upstream issues [2] related
to this problem on 32-bit architectures.

[1]: https://src.fedoraproject.org/rpms/nodejs22/pull-request/10#comment-251188
[2]: https://github.com/nodejs/node/issues/45906

After discussing with upstream, it turns out that they do not provide
i686 builds, and they generally do not seem to support 32-bit
architectures any more. In light of this revelation, I would like to
propose dropping the i686 architecture from the `%nodejs_arches` macro
and thus consequently from the builds of all NodeJS related software.

While the general rebuild can be hopefully handled by me or my team in
a side-tag, I know that nodejs is used in builds of other software
(Firefox comes to mind as an example). If you are a consumer of nodejs
in any way, would the drop affect you in any way? If so, do you have
an idea what we can do to help alleviate the problems?

Looking forward to any feedback!
Best regards,
-- 
Jan Stanek

Software Engineer

Red Hat

IM: @jstanek

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Re: Inquiry About Fedora Models

2025-06-10 Thread Josh Boyer
On Tue, Jun 10, 2025 at 5:32 AM Lee Thomas Stephen  wrote:
>
> Hi everyone,
>
> Will there be a version similar to this one:
> https://huggingface.co/RedHatAI for Fedora?

I am not aware of any Fedora community projects around creating,
tuning, distilling, or otherwise optimizing models, so it's unlikely.

josh
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Packaging sccache – collaborator request!

2025-06-10 Thread Marcus Müller

Hi everyone,

I've been using sccache [1] as wrapping compiler cacher, not unlike `ccache`, but with 
more storage backend options, and at least the option to do what `distcc` has classically 
been used for, but with auto-distribution of toolchains (!). It's what mozilla uses for 
their software builds, and supports C, C++, and Rust.


Now, to make my life easier and to get the ick out of installing sccache, I'd like to 
package that as Fedora package. As far as license is concerned, I think that should be 
fine – it's Apache-2.0-licensed.


Thing that I'm not clear about is how to approach packaging software like that 
for Fedora:

- It's rust, and cargo pulls down a host of dependencies for the build.
 - No idea how make it use things as packaged by fedora when available, and how to make a 
license SBOM for the rest.
 - the spec generated by rust2rpm doesn't tell me much; an rpmbuild of the result lists 
about 100 missing dependencies of the kind "crate(base64/default)"
- it exists in different "configurations" (with the distributed compilation agent, and 
without)


It seems to be a solvable problem; debian testing does ship the current release.

Now, I'm not a Rust dev, but I'll happy to do the RPM, care about updates, sort the 
occasional bug, etc. But putting me as sole maintainer would probably be a misjudgement of 
my own capabilities.


Would someone want to share this burden with me?

Best regards,
Marcus

[1] https://github.com/mozilla/sccache

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Re: F43 Change Proposal: Deprecate RPM Macros for setup.py-based Python Builds (self-contained)

2025-06-10 Thread Cristian Le via devel

On 2025/06/10 15:08, Miro Hrončok wrote:


On 10. 06. 25 13:59, Cristian Le via devel wrote:

I believe some clarification for this proposal is in order


What kind of clarification do you think is needed?


Not necessarily in the change proposal, but for the people who were 
confused in this email thread.



On 2025/06/07 14:49, Aoife Moloney wrote:


Old:

  %build
  %py3_build

New:

  %build
  %pyproject_wheel


The %py3_build expands to `python3 setup.py build` [1] which is the 
interface that is being removed. %pyproject_wheel expands to `pip 
wheel` [2], which will read setup.py and build (presumably without 
calling the removed interface). 


More or less, yes. It might not read setup.py if pyproject.toml says 
otherwise. But for 99.9 % packages that worked with %py3_build, this 
is the case, yes.


Could also document that a minimal pyproject.toml can be added as
```
[build-system]
requires = ["setuptools"]
build-backend = "setuptools.build_meta"
```

I've seen those around, but I don't know if it actually makes a 
difference in these context.



Do you believe such technical detail needs to be in the proposal?
Your call on this, if you expect that you need to clarify the point 
later on as well, or if the clarification in this mailing list is 
sufficient.
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