Re: [Server-devel] 9.1 Proposal: Printing support
On Tuesday 21 Oct 2008 7:03:23 pm Yama Ploskonka wrote: > When I am asked about whether the XO handles printing, I present that > the fact it does not is a feature, not a bug. +1. CUPS is designed for office LANs. Trying to put it on XO intended for educating children in remote areas is an overkill. After all, digital cameras and smart phones don't come with cups and many people (even in cities seem) to get by fine). Let us not forget that printers are a power hog and the power required to drive printers is better spent in operating XOs. Yes, there will be deployments that will have access to power, printers, ink supplies and large reams of paper. But those places are also likely to have access to admins who should be able to install and setup LAN printing. FWIW .. Subbu ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: [Server-devel] 9.1 Proposal: Printing support
Hi Jeff, If you will help develop with us, you can sign up here for a free XO: http://projectdb.olpc.at/ BTW I'm a comic book fan myself. I give out Gyro Gearloose comic books whenever a kid comes by the office :-) Thanks, Greg S Jeff wrote: > > On 21 Oct 2008, at 4:15 PM, Martin Langhoff wrote: > >> On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 3:05 AM, Jeff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>> Please stop imagining that lowest-spec, cheapest hardware and >>> crippleware is >>> the answer - or that 3'rd World countries will never progress towards a >>> reasonable standard. That attitude is patronizing and demeaning. And >>> wrong. >> >> Hey - I'm familiar with a lot of variety and I'm working towards >> options and flexibility as much as I can. But I'm shorthanded as hell, >> so help is appreciated in *getting things done*. >> >> And no -- server-devel is not about crippleware. It's just not very >> far along. > > > I'm sorry to have offended you Martin. I have tremendous respect for you > and think you've done amazing work here, but I think some of the > limitations are a result of the (artificial) constraints which you > currently perceive or experience, but which may not actually be > constraints in a couple of years. . . Including the cost of your data > traffic in NZ. > > From my perspective I would love to see a full featured XS deployment > that includes wikipedia, gutenberg library, comics, games, and a DVD > distro with all the necessary software applications and packages - > rather than a server OS cut down to the bone to be able to fit on an XO > as a server. > > The Server and the Content Library are inextricably interwoven in my mind. > > It could be worth considering focusing on XS running on XO as a server > to handle the basic requirements (DNS, DHCP, ejabberd, and CUPS (hehe), > etc.) - but for the rest I think that everything required for an XO > deployment server could as easily be packaged for Debian and Fedora > separately as distinct repositories. Another thing which is important, > in my experience, is single sign-on authentication across the board: > from a user data directory on the server - to Moodle and Drupal... and > much more. In that regard I would love if there was a closer correlation > to normal desktop deployments instead of depending on the XO's unique ID > or MAC address (or however it is planned... I don't really have a clue > about that. Sorry. Send me an XO, please. : -). > > Unfortunately I don't have access to an XO, and each 500mb download of > an ISO (Sugar & XS, but excluding Qemu) costs me a very significant > percentage of my monthly income. *sigh* That's my own fault for choosing > to be where I am and doing what I'm doing, I guess. > > I just wish I knew how to help you get more things done. I believe > strongly in the OLPC vision (actually, Nicholas Negroponte's original > vision)... and as far as I'm concerned, if we had a deployment of OLPC > here (and I mean 1 laptop /per/ child) we will use it as medium to > instill a love of reading in children. > > If OLPC misses every constructivist wish and vision; and only creates a > mobile "Library of Alexandria" for our children (including, and probably > especially, classic comic material) - thereby instilling a love of > reading and an improved literacy - it will have succeeded beyond > Nicholas's dreams. Please don't think by that I misunderstand or believe > that such a foundation will not provide the constructivist platform that > we all, mostly, believe in. It's just that my perspective is colored by > my real life experience here. > > To put that in context: here where we are the text-books are locked up > in safes, and the children learn to regard the teacher as a font of all > knowledge and wisdom. It is a very dangerous mindset that; and creates > an appalling dependency on perceived "authority" and artificial > hierarchies. > > > -Jeff > > > > ___ Server-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/server-devel
Re: [Server-devel] 9.1 Proposal: Printing support
On 21 Oct 2008, at 4:15 PM, Martin Langhoff wrote: On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 3:05 AM, Jeff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Please stop imagining that lowest-spec, cheapest hardware and crippleware is the answer - or that 3'rd World countries will never progress towards a reasonable standard. That attitude is patronizing and demeaning. And wrong. Hey - I'm familiar with a lot of variety and I'm working towards options and flexibility as much as I can. But I'm shorthanded as hell, so help is appreciated in *getting things done*. And no -- server-devel is not about crippleware. It's just not very far along. I'm sorry to have offended you Martin. I have tremendous respect for you and think you've done amazing work here, but I think some of the limitations are a result of the (artificial) constraints which you currently perceive or experience, but which may not actually be constraints in a couple of years. . . Including the cost of your data traffic in NZ. From my perspective I would love to see a full featured XS deployment that includes wikipedia, gutenberg library, comics, games, and a DVD distro with all the necessary software applications and packages - rather than a server OS cut down to the bone to be able to fit on an XO as a server. The Server and the Content Library are inextricably interwoven in my mind. It could be worth considering focusing on XS running on XO as a server to handle the basic requirements (DNS, DHCP, ejabberd, and CUPS (hehe), etc.) - but for the rest I think that everything required for an XO deployment server could as easily be packaged for Debian and Fedora separately as distinct repositories. Another thing which is important, in my experience, is single sign-on authentication across the board: from a user data directory on the server - to Moodle and Drupal... and much more. In that regard I would love if there was a closer correlation to normal desktop deployments instead of depending on the XO's unique ID or MAC address (or however it is planned... I don't really have a clue about that. Sorry. Send me an XO, please. : -). Unfortunately I don't have access to an XO, and each 500mb download of an ISO (Sugar & XS, but excluding Qemu) costs me a very significant percentage of my monthly income. *sigh* That's my own fault for choosing to be where I am and doing what I'm doing, I guess. I just wish I knew how to help you get more things done. I believe strongly in the OLPC vision (actually, Nicholas Negroponte's original vision)... and as far as I'm concerned, if we had a deployment of OLPC here (and I mean 1 laptop /per/ child) we will use it as medium to instill a love of reading in children. If OLPC misses every constructivist wish and vision; and only creates a mobile "Library of Alexandria" for our children (including, and probably especially, classic comic material) - thereby instilling a love of reading and an improved literacy - it will have succeeded beyond Nicholas's dreams. Please don't think by that I misunderstand or believe that such a foundation will not provide the constructivist platform that we all, mostly, believe in. It's just that my perspective is colored by my real life experience here. To put that in context: here where we are the text-books are locked up in safes, and the children learn to regard the teacher as a font of all knowledge and wisdom. It is a very dangerous mindset that; and creates an appalling dependency on perceived "authority" and artificial hierarchies. -Jeff ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: [Server-devel] 9.1 Proposal: Printing support
On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 3:05 AM, Jeff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Please stop imagining that lowest-spec, cheapest hardware and crippleware is > the answer - or that 3'rd World countries will never progress towards a > reasonable standard. That attitude is patronizing and demeaning. And wrong. Hey - I'm familiar with a lot of variety and I'm working towards options and flexibility as much as I can. But I'm shorthanded as hell, so help is appreciated in *getting things done*. And no -- server-devel is not about crippleware. It's just not very far along. cheers, m -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- School Server Architect - ask interesting questions - don't get distracted with shiny stuff - working code first - http://wiki.laptop.org/go/User:Martinlanghoff ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: [Server-devel] 9.1 Proposal: Printing support
Because it is "defective by design" does not mean that it is a feature and not a flaw. I manage 5 school-labs in deepest, darkest, rural Africa; and printing has never been much of a support issue. Sure there are issues with CUPS. Especially with printers going offline when they run out of paper and needing to be manually re-"started" in a web browser... but we've managed to get around that and train the teachers (in about 5 minutes flat). They also change their toner cartridges with ease, and can justify the expense for printer toner as easily as for photocopier... And most of them have a budget for that. I am immensely frustrated with the pandering to the lowest common denominator which I view as a cultural disease on the server-devel list. I don't wish to address each and every issue - but I disagree completely that printing is an issue, and that VSAT is not the way to get on the internet or cannot be upscaled. Please stop imagining that lowest-spec, cheapest hardware and crippleware is the answer - or that 3'rd World countries will never progress towards a reasonable standard. That attitude is patronizing and demeaning. And wrong. -Jeff On 21 Oct 2008, at 3:33 PM, Yama Ploskonka wrote: When I am asked about whether the XO handles printing, I present that the fact it does not is a feature, not a bug. And people understand. It is not out of the ordinary that the life of school printers will be the life of the first set of ink cartridges or toner, there being no budget to refill them once they are gone. Of course people could pay a few cents a copy for the toner fund, but then that would require endless structure, trust it will not be misused, etc... It is true that, for too many teachers, what is not on paper actually does not exist, thus limiting the "usefulness" of the XO in their minds to an almost nil value unless it can print. Getting things printed is not the way to solve this, just as VSAT is not the way to get internet - neither can be scaled up, neither is sustainable. As Martin wisely indicates and I agree wholeheartedly, this is more a social problem than one of software. Ultimately having the Write documents to be printed be uploaded to a specific folder in the XS, and that be the queue for printing should be rather simple (the "print" function on the XO would do that, and the destination folder is pre-defined and is a static destination or else is picked up from a specific set of data when the XO connects to the XS). But that does not solve the problem that, outside rich countries, there simply be no printer or resources to follow through. Yama Martin Langhoff wrote: Paper, ink and printer time are extremely valuable. So far we have not built anything yet to share handle limited resources across users yet -- and doing it across something so lumpy as printing resources it going to be an interesting exercise in building social software. ___ Server-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/server-devel -- Jeff Brown Cell: 074-101 5170 / Fax: 086-532 3508 Masimanyane Mussel Rehabilitation and Masande Nursery ~ Nutritional Projects C O F F E E B A Y ~ W I L D C O A S T ++ Website: www.wildcoast.com Blog: www.wildcoast.com/jeff 8< -- Do not believe in miracles -- rely on them. ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: [Server-devel] 9.1 Proposal: Printing support
When I am asked about whether the XO handles printing, I present that the fact it does not is a feature, not a bug. And people understand. It is not out of the ordinary that the life of school printers will be the life of the first set of ink cartridges or toner, there being no budget to refill them once they are gone. Of course people could pay a few cents a copy for the toner fund, but then that would require endless structure, trust it will not be misused, etc... It is true that, for too many teachers, what is not on paper actually does not exist, thus limiting the "usefulness" of the XO in their minds to an almost nil value unless it can print. Getting things printed is not the way to solve this, just as VSAT is not the way to get internet - neither can be scaled up, neither is sustainable. As Martin wisely indicates and I agree wholeheartedly, this is more a social problem than one of software. Ultimately having the Write documents to be printed be uploaded to a specific folder in the XS, and that be the queue for printing should be rather simple (the "print" function on the XO would do that, and the destination folder is pre-defined and is a static destination or else is picked up from a specific set of data when the XO connects to the XS). But that does not solve the problem that, outside rich countries, there simply be no printer or resources to follow through. Yama Martin Langhoff wrote: > Paper, ink and printer time are > extremely valuable. > So far we have not built anything yet to share handle limited > resources across users yet -- and doing it across something so lumpy > as printing resources it going to be an interesting exercise in > building social software. ___ Server-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/server-devel
