Re: Music on the XO

[Albert Cahalan]

Mitch Bradley writes:

> The speakers start rolling off at about 600 Hz and are
> virtually worthless below 400 Hz.

Music activities should thus default to a bassoon.

The odd thing about a bassoon is that the fundamental
frequency is nearly absent. The ear-brain system fills
in this frequency, making the bassoon sound very low
pitched without actually containing much of the very low
frequencies.

At the other extreme, a sine wave is worst case.
Recorders produce this, and flutes nearly do.
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Re: Music on the XO

[James Cameron]

On Tue, Oct 30, 2007 at 08:04:22AM -1000, Mitch Bradley wrote:
> The speakers start rolling off at about 600 Hz and are virtually 
> worthless below 400 Hz.

For your collective interest, the speakers can reproduce DTMF tones
reliably provided the levels are set down from maximum.

At lunch today on a B2 with build-debian, the dtmfdial package was used
to transmit tones over a ham radio for making an IRLP request.  The DTMF
tones include 697 Hz for the top row.

In listening to podcasts, certainly headphones sound better.

-- 
James Cameronmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://quozl.netrek.org/
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Re: Music on the XO

[Mitch Bradley]

Seth Woodworth wrote:
> Slightly off of the conversational thread here but: Information on the 
> specific output spectrum capabilities might improve transcoding of 
> audio files into smaller file sizes.  If there is no, or poor quality, 
> auditory response below or above a given threshold, it might be worth 
> snipping off various frequencies, or otherwise optimizing how 
> materials are encoded to take advantage of this.

The speakers start rolling off at about 600 Hz and are virtually 
worthless below 400 Hz.

The hardware has a one-pole highpass filter at about 400 Hz (I forget 
the exact frequency but it doesn't matter much) in order to reduce the 
amount of useless LF energy that is presented to the speakers.  The 
rolloff is only in the speaker path; the headphone path has flat 
response across the audio band.

In my experience, equalization doesn't improve the sound from the 
speakers very much.  They sound tinny and weak no matter what you do.  
Taming the big peak in the 4 Khz range is of some value, but most 
program material has little information in that region, so the perceived 
improvement is small.  Boosting the bass makes things worse - the 
speakers don't have enough air-moving capacity (cone diameter times 
linear motion range) to render low frequencies, and sending them more 
signal just slams the mechanical structure against its physical limits, 
causing distortion and possible damage.

Bottom line - don't sell your Klipschorns.

>
> Is Jamendo, or anyone else, studying this?
>
> And Re: above conversation.  Yes, I would love to see ethnologists get 
> involved.  The at the moment I don't believe is a lack of effort on 
> anyone's part, but a lack of available material.  Go to most 
> university's music libraries and you will still find plenty of content 
> in vinyl format as opposed to cd-audio or digital formats.  Getting 
> recordings made or existing recordings released into the public domain 
> is an important project, and one of the main topics of a "What should 
> Wikipedia do with $100 Million dollars" thread about a year back.
>
> I believe that just about everyone is on the same page here as far as 
> what they would *like* to see on the OLPC.  In the meantime I think 
> that the current selections are far better than nothing..
>
> Seth
>
> On 10/28/07, *Jean Piché* <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > 
> wrote:
>
> >
> > If I may summarize, what you are saying is that:
> >
> > a) Given that this is about education, OLPC should be taking the
> > cultural high road in terms of bundled music.
>
> yes.
>
>
> > b) The perception that acceptable licensing terms will be difficult
> > to impossible to obtain should not get in the way of a)
>
> yes.
>
>
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Re: Music on the XO

[Seth Woodworth]

Slightly off of the conversational thread here but: Information on the
specific output spectrum capabilities might improve transcoding of audio
files into smaller file sizes.  If there is no, or poor quality, auditory
response below or above a given threshold, it might be worth snipping off
various frequencies, or otherwise optimizing how materials are encoded to
take advantage of this.

Is Jamendo, or anyone else, studying this?

And Re: above conversation.  Yes, I would love to see ethnologists get
involved.  The at the moment I don't believe is a lack of effort on anyone's
part, but a lack of available material.  Go to most university's music
libraries and you will still find plenty of content in vinyl format as
opposed to cd-audio or digital formats.  Getting recordings made or existing
recordings released into the public domain is an important project, and one
of the main topics of a "What should Wikipedia do with $100 Million dollars"
thread about a year back.

I believe that just about everyone is on the same page here as far as what
they would *like* to see on the OLPC.  In the meantime I think that the
current selections are far better than nothing..

Seth

On 10/28/07, Jean Piché <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >
> > If I may summarize, what you are saying is that:
> >
> > a) Given that this is about education, OLPC should be taking the
> > cultural high road in terms of bundled music.
>
> yes.
>
>
> > b) The perception that acceptable licensing terms will be difficult
> > to impossible to obtain should not get in the way of a)
>
> yes.
>
>
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Re: Music on the XO

[Jean Piché]

>
> If I may summarize, what you are saying is that:
>
> a) Given that this is about education, OLPC should be taking the  
> cultural high road in terms of bundled music.

yes.


> b) The perception that acceptable licensing terms will be difficult  
> to impossible to obtain should not get in the way of a)

yes.


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Re: Music on the XO

[Antoine van Gelder]

Jean Piché wrote:
> 
> Hello Antoine,
> 
> Like I outlined in my previous response to SJ, I am not so worried about 
> cultural dominance/imperialism. People are too aware for this to happen 
> as a matter of course.  I am concerned with quality. Quality measured 
> locally.


My apologies - this immediately became clear from your reply to SJ.


>  If there is condescension to be had, it will be local. Cultural
> condescension is complicated. It is not a east-west thing. It happens in 
> every society:  consider older kids commenting on younger kid's musical 
> tastes. Culture, by definition, is built on the rarification of talent 
> and expression. As you grow more sophisticated, you understand more. The 
> examplar in any culture is what has value. Not the common denominator.


In another lifetime I earned my supper playing my guitar so I cannot but 
help agree with you!

If I may summarize, what you are saying is that:

a) Given that this is about education, OLPC should be taking the 
cultural high road in terms of bundled music.

b) The perception that acceptable licensing terms will be difficult to 
impossible to obtain should not get in the way of a)

?

  - a


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Re: Music on the XO

[Jean Piché]

Hello Antoine,

Like I outlined in my previous response to SJ, I am not so worried  
about cultural dominance/imperialism. People are too aware for this  
to happen as a matter of course.  I am concerned with quality.  
Quality measured locally. If there is condescension to be had, it  
will be local. Cultural condescension is complicated. It is not a  
east-west thing. It happens in every society:  consider older kids  
commenting on younger kid's musical tastes. Culture, by definition,  
is built on the rarification of talent and expression. As you grow  
more sophisticated, you understand more. The examplar in any culture  
is what has value. Not the common denominator.


jp


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On 28-Oct-07, at 6:32 AM, Antoine van Gelder wrote:


Jean Piché wrote:

I am perhaps not in a position to be an arbitrer any more than the
undoutedly generous and sharp young minds at Jamendo but I suggest
OLPC thread VERY carefully here. Even when there is quality, I am not
certain what to think of Nigerian children being fed a diet of DJ
Spooky, no matter how much I personally enjoy his work...



Dear Jean,

Also being a member of the so-called 'dominator culture' I can  
appreciate where these concerns are coming from as there is much  
ill-will between people of all countries - rich&poor - regarding  
things that have happened in the past and fears of what might still  
happen in the future.


I would however like to comment that it is at our peril that we  
tread on egg shells or - even worse - be _perceived_ as treading on  
egg shells as there is only one sin which is considered more vile  
than cultural imperialism and that is the sin of cultural  
condescension!!!


:-D

I'd like to quote an email I received this morning from Ron  
Wertlen, one of the folk involved with grassroots olpc here in  
South Africa, written on his return from a TV shoot for Swiss  
national television.


While reading it, please bear in mind that the area they visited is  
one of the poorest and most remote of any district in South Africa.  
(or Africa for that matter!)



Ron wrote:

the shoot went very well! The main thing is we got on well, the kids
had a great time (unfortunately only 20 out of 722). And the
highlight was how surprised Cristina was by the kids - they danced
for us after the shoot and there was some modern and ballroom dancing
there complete with costumes. We decided that would be great as a
final scene, to show that there should be no fear of "cultural
imperialism" via the digital content. The people are seeking new
inputs for growth wherever they can and OLPC can definitely make a
big difference.
We overnighted at Bulungula, which is very scenic and it really
requires 4x4 driving, which they promptly also filmed to get a good
feel of the Wild Coast. After that there was a short interview in the
car and then we filmed at the school. 722 kids, 18 educators and I
think about 8 classrooms. They have to have classes out of doors.
Because of a roaring wind, the interviewing was done in one of the
two good classrooms (which also has a principal's corner). that's
also where the kids used the computers. I let them play with block
the most. They really enjoyed that. Then I switched on the video
camera on one, and they figured it out themselves on the other one.
These were fairly young kids Gr. 5.


 - a



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Re: Music on the XO

[Jean Piché]

Hi SJ,

Thank you for responding and first, a word of apology for words that  
came out harsher than I intended. I make amends further down.


Free music, like free culture, is not simply a great concept -- it  
is a reminder and affirmation of the inherent right to cultivate  
and share cultural artefacts.


Leaving aside monetary questions for a moment, free culture is an  
illusion and a potentially dangerous one. Not everything created is  
worthy. Culture is largely based on historical canonical values  
without which it cant evolve. This is true in all cultures. Like  
language and grammars.  Without canons, nothing can be shared except  
self-referential and empty expression.  (My Aunt Irene was never very  
good at the piano, no matter how heartfelt her renditions  were).


The XO is a nice package to fabricate and share cultural artifacts.  
Combined with the web, the "tools and access" issue is largely  
solved. Every Aunt Irene now has a violin and a blowhorn to play it  
through. What i am concerned with is what, in context, gets presented  
as worthy to be listened to and, as the case may be, emulated.


If as you say choice of music is of fundamental importance in the  
education and socialisation of a child, I hope you will agree that  
the right to educate and socialize a child 'properly' should not be  
owned

by a small group of individuals who can choose whether or not to
license said music to you.


Precisely. This is why I talked about OLPC's "curatorial" and  
"examplary" powers in setting up a core music library. Whether this  
comes by way of Jamendo, another community or is self-appointed, it  
leads to the same situation. Who arbitrates? What is arbitrated?   
When decisions are made to form a core library on school servers and  
individual machines, the choices made will be, by definition, "what's  
worthy" to children who access the library.  I am not against a core  
library. I am against a core library constructed on licensing issues  
as opposed to one constructed on historical and cultural relevance.  
OLPC should never put itself in the position of suggesting what is  
good for a child outside the accepted cultural norm of a given  
culture. This decision belongs to local communities. Serious  
backfiring is almost guaranteed to happen otherwise. Consider that  
music will perhaps be the activity most often done on the XO.



It should go without saying that old yet beautiful recordings of
canonical works which have been enjoyed and revisited for centuries
should be available for anyone (such as OLPC) to share with millions
of children throughout the world.  That there is a legal sense in
which this is not possible is a testament to deep failings in our
conception of how and where culture is created.


I dont know enough about licencing to be on solid footing. But I  
would think, on the contrary, that obtaining the appropriate licences  
is entirely possible for our endeavour. There must be thousands of  
recordings of Bach's Partitas and hundreds of the Gumboot music of  
South Africa. I understand it is difficult to make a careful picking  
of everything under the sun but  it is not impossible. Its a project  
that has to be taken on if the OLPC is to be considered culturally  
informed.


I woudl argue a core library should *only* contain multicultural  
canonical works (styles unrestricted) and shoudl be curated  
independently, not through community polling. If you poll across the  
world, you'll get Celine Dion. A contemporary canon is not western;  
all cultures have ways and means.


To your implied criticism of the Jamendo collections: If there are  
particular pieces you find of poor quality, not merely distasteful,
please let me know which they are. The collections posted were  
selected

with care, and none would suggest that low quality works have a place
there. If you link to the Jamendo collection, your comments will  
appear

directly on that page[1].


I was unduly harsh to the Jamendo project and I apologise.  I know  
they do great and generous work and i personally do like much of  
their selection. But I live in the west and I have a sophisticated  
understanding of musical trends. When you say "selected with care", I  
have no reason to doubt the sincerity and dedication of those who  
made the selection. But, alas, the music world is a big place.  A few  
million kids would have the right to know who took the decision to  
give them the music, why they did and why they consider it "better"  
than, say, Aunt Irene doing Moonlight Tango after a few drinks. Kids  
will believe the weirdest things in the absence of explanations.


I would like nothing better than to see those collections become  
better rounded. While we must start somewhere, that is not because  
we philosophically privilege the first entries over others. I would  
likewise love to see our collection of sounds grow to include  
samples from every family of the animal kingdom.


Why n

Re: Music on the XO

[Antoine van Gelder]

Jean Piché wrote:
> I am perhaps not in a position to be an arbitrer any more than the
> undoutedly generous and sharp young minds at Jamendo but I suggest
> OLPC thread VERY carefully here. Even when there is quality, I am not
> certain what to think of Nigerian children being fed a diet of DJ
> Spooky, no matter how much I personally enjoy his work...


Dear Jean,

Also being a member of the so-called 'dominator culture' I can 
appreciate where these concerns are coming from as there is much 
ill-will between people of all countries - rich&poor - regarding things 
that have happened in the past and fears of what might still happen in 
the future.

I would however like to comment that it is at our peril that we tread on 
egg shells or - even worse - be _perceived_ as treading on egg shells as 
there is only one sin which is considered more vile than cultural 
imperialism and that is the sin of cultural condescension!!!

:-D

I'd like to quote an email I received this morning from Ron Wertlen, one 
of the folk involved with grassroots olpc here in South Africa, written 
on his return from a TV shoot for Swiss national television.

While reading it, please bear in mind that the area they visited is one 
of the poorest and most remote of any district in South Africa. (or 
Africa for that matter!)


Ron wrote:
> the shoot went very well! The main thing is we got on well, the kids
> had a great time (unfortunately only 20 out of 722). And the
> highlight was how surprised Cristina was by the kids - they danced
> for us after the shoot and there was some modern and ballroom dancing
> there complete with costumes. We decided that would be great as a
> final scene, to show that there should be no fear of "cultural
> imperialism" via the digital content. The people are seeking new
> inputs for growth wherever they can and OLPC can definitely make a
> big difference.
> 
> We overnighted at Bulungula, which is very scenic and it really
> requires 4x4 driving, which they promptly also filmed to get a good
> feel of the Wild Coast. After that there was a short interview in the
> car and then we filmed at the school. 722 kids, 18 educators and I
> think about 8 classrooms. They have to have classes out of doors.
> Because of a roaring wind, the interviewing was done in one of the
> two good classrooms (which also has a principal's corner). that's
> also where the kids used the computers. I let them play with block
> the most. They really enjoyed that. Then I switched on the video
> camera on one, and they figured it out themselves on the other one.
> These were fairly young kids Gr. 5.

  - a

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Re: Music on the XO

[SJ Klein]

Jean,

Free music, like free culture, is not simply a great concept -- it is a 
reminder and affirmation of the inherent right to cultivate and share 
cultural artefacts.


If as you say choice of music is of fundamental importance in the 
education and socialisation of a child, I hope you will agree that the 
right to educate and socialize a child 'properly' should not be owned

by a small group of individuals who can choose whether or not to
license said music to you.

It should go without saying that old yet beautiful recordings of
canonical works which have been enjoyed and revisited for centuries
should be available for anyone (such as OLPC) to share with millions
of children throughout the world.  That there is a legal sense in
which this is not possible is a testament to deep failings in our
conception of how and where culture is created.


To your implied criticism of the Jamendo collections: If there are 
particular pieces you find of poor quality, not merely distasteful,

please let me know which they are. The collections posted were selected
with care, and none would suggest that low quality works have a place
there. If you link to the Jamendo collection, your comments will appear
directly on that page[1].

I would like nothing better than to see those collections become better 
rounded. While we must start somewhere, that is not because we 
philosophically privilege the first entries over others. I would likewise 
love to see our collection of sounds grow to include samples from every 
family of the animal kingdom.


You are in a position to help ensure this. Your input, and suggestions of 
specific works and collections, is most welcome.  While we are careful 
about the licensing of collections we distribute, we can be more flexible 
about the collections we link to.


Thank you for the upate on the audio response; I do not know the hardware 
details, but often feel I don't have very subtle control of the audio 
environment.  Perhaps there is some way to offer more than linear volume 
control?


SJ

[1] the top post right now: http://conley.toejammer.net/blog/?p=201


On Sat, 27 Oct 2007, Jean Pich? wrote:


SJ,

Two things.

More important:

Free music is a great concept... for people who have global access to 
ineternet-based music pools. Given enough "community mass" and discernment on 
the part of the listener, one can get to the subjective and elusive concepts 
of  "quality"  and "exemplariness".  The problem here is that OLPC, by the 
very fact it will include collections of music by "curated" artists out of 
the free music ethos, gives a value imprimatur where perhaps none is 
warranted. We dont need a discussion about music's influence on culture but I 
think everyone will agree its serious business in the education and 
socialising of a child, increasing manyfold in adolescence. Alas, much of the 
music that is presently included in the Jamendo collection is, to be honest, 
dreadful in style and of rather poor quality in production.  I am perhaps not 
in a position to be an arbitrer any more than the undoutedly generous and 
sharp young minds at Jamendo but I suggest OLPC thread VERY carefully here. 
Even when there is quality, I am not certain what to think of Nigerian 
children being fed a diet of DJ Spooky, no matter how much I personally enjoy 
his work...


We should be discerning about what we wish for. "Open System" ia not  "Open 
Culture".




Less important:

A head's up on the XO audio subsystem: The speakers have a severely biased 
frequency response. We have recently performed a thorough analysis of the 
audio response curve of the machine and there is a spectacular 12dB peak 
between 3000 and 4500 Hz, this on all models.  I suspect these are mobile 
phone speakers designed for voice clarity. What this means is kids will 
likely crank up the volume so that they can hear some of the lower 
frequencies. Since the physical size of the speakers prohibits any 
frequencies below 350 HZ,  as they try to get a decent bandwidth,  they will 
get the "membrane-against-the-casing"  distortion (which has the merit of 
making the kids lower the volume but  risks killing the speakers if done 
routinely). Someone on the hardware side really should look at the long term 
prospects for audio hardware failure and see what correction we can bring, by 
limiting signal output and/or equalising the output of the AD1888 (we dont 
know what can be done on chip...)


The solution we have implemented in TamTam  is to simply apply a reverse 
notch filter on the audio signals we send to the speakers. This works well 
and provides a more pleasant listening experience, but inevitably reduces the 
dynamic range. It does nothing per se to protect the speakers becasue you can 
still crank up the volume to casing distortion. Furthermore, our solution 
only works with the speakers of course, since the line out/headphone output 
produces an acceptably neutral signal. Thus, to make it sound good in the 
spea

Re: Music on the XO

[Albert Cahalan]

Jean Piche writes:

> dont need a discussion about music's influence on culture but I think
> everyone will agree its serious business in the education and
> socialising of a child, increasing manyfold in adolescence.
...
> Even when
> there is quality, I am not certain what to think of Nigerian children
> being fed a diet of DJ Spooky, no matter how much I personally enjoy
> his work...

It's competing with songs like "I Go Chop Your Dollar". :-(

> A head's up on the XO audio subsystem: The speakers have a severely
> biased frequency response. We have recently performed a thorough
> analysis of the audio response curve of the machine and there is a
> spectacular 12dB peak between 3000 and 4500 Hz, this on all models.

Please share.

> The solution we have implemented in TamTam  is to simply apply a
> reverse notch filter on the audio signals we send to the speakers.

Details?

> This works well and provides a more pleasant listening experience,
> but inevitably reduces the dynamic range. It does nothing per se to
> protect the speakers becasue you can still crank up the volume to
> casing distortion. Furthermore, our solution only works with the
> speakers of course, since the line out/headphone output produces an
> acceptably neutral signal. Thus, to make it sound good in the
> speakers, we make it sound bad in the earphones. Unless there is a
> signal we can access that tells us when the line out jack is
> connected  Anyone know?

The hardware documentation says you can tell.
(but I haven't seen how)
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Re: Music on the XO

[Erik Blankinship]

>  it sound bad in the earphones. Unless there is a signal we can access
> that tells us when the line out jack is connected  Anyone know?
>


I believe this option was added to the hardware for the microphone between
the b2 and b3 builds by Wad and CJB.  Not sure if there is a signal to
listen for in sugar though, or if the options was also added for the
headphone jack.
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Music on the XO

[Jean Piché]

SJ,

Two things.

More important:

Free music is a great concept... for people who have global access to  
ineternet-based music pools. Given enough "community mass" and  
discernment on the part of the listener, one can get to the  
subjective and elusive concepts of  "quality"  and "exemplariness".   
The problem here is that OLPC, by the very fact it will include  
collections of music by "curated" artists out of the free music  
ethos, gives a value imprimatur where perhaps none is warranted. We  
dont need a discussion about music's influence on culture but I think  
everyone will agree its serious business in the education and  
socialising of a child, increasing manyfold in adolescence. Alas,  
much of the music that is presently included in the Jamendo  
collection is, to be honest, dreadful in style and of rather poor  
quality in production.  I am perhaps not in a position to be an  
arbitrer any more than the undoutedly generous and sharp young minds  
at Jamendo but I suggest OLPC thread VERY carefully here. Even when  
there is quality, I am not certain what to think of Nigerian children  
being fed a diet of DJ Spooky, no matter how much I personally enjoy  
his work...


We should be discerning about what we wish for. "Open System" ia not   
"Open Culture".




Less important:

A head's up on the XO audio subsystem: The speakers have a severely  
biased frequency response. We have recently performed a thorough  
analysis of the audio response curve of the machine and there is a  
spectacular 12dB peak between 3000 and 4500 Hz, this on all models.   
I suspect these are mobile phone speakers designed for voice clarity.  
What this means is kids will likely crank up the volume so that they  
can hear some of the lower frequencies. Since the physical size of  
the speakers prohibits any frequencies below 350 HZ,  as they try to  
get a decent bandwidth,  they will get the "membrane-against-the- 
casing"  distortion (which has the merit of making the kids lower the  
volume but  risks killing the speakers if done routinely). Someone on  
the hardware side really should look at the long term prospects for  
audio hardware failure and see what correction we can bring, by  
limiting signal output and/or equalising the output of the AD1888 (we  
dont know what can be done on chip...)


The solution we have implemented in TamTam  is to simply apply a  
reverse notch filter on the audio signals we send to the speakers.  
This works well and provides a more pleasant listening experience,  
but inevitably reduces the dynamic range. It does nothing per se to  
protect the speakers becasue you can still crank up the volume to  
casing distortion. Furthermore, our solution only works with the  
speakers of course, since the line out/headphone output produces an  
acceptably neutral signal. Thus, to make it sound good in the  
speakers, we make it sound bad in the earphones. Unless there is a  
signal we can access that tells us when the line out jack is  
connected  Anyone know?



jp (ethrop)



_
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On 26-Oct-07, at 9:33 PM, Samuel Klein wrote:



Jamendo has been hard at work compiling albums of music and  
confirmations

from their artists, coordinating the work of dozens of curators and
smaller partner sites.  You can see some of the results of their work
here:

http://www.jamendo.com/fr/olpc

There will be a "contribute music" interface soon; for now, you can  
send
albums and interested artists to Romain directly (cc:ed here).  And  
there

will be more information put up about the artists involved.

This has come together thanks to many people, but especially the  
crews at

Jamendo, Free Culture, and the Antenna Alliance.  You all rock.

If you have contributed music in other formats that doesn't  
currently show

up on the page listed above, let us know; and make sure that you have
confirmed the license of your works.

Cheers,
SJ
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