Re: Touch pads
On 26.11.2008, at 04:18, Ton van Overbeek wrote: Note that the Embedded Controller firmware version is also important. I suppose there are still very many XOs out in the field with the original firmware. Since Q2E18(?) there was a change causing many more mouse packets to be delivered to the CPU. Also there was a change in mouse mode between ship.2 and update.1. Do not know what is out in the field. On a side note, I still have the touchpad jumpiness on my recently received G1G1-2008 XOs. I will get some debug logs and send them. Should I attach them to my original ticket (#7788)? I think the mother of erratic touchpad bugs is still http://dev.laptop.org/ticket/2804 - Bert - ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: Touch pads
ton van overbeek wrote: Note that the Embedded Controller firmware version is also important. I suppose there are still very many XOs out in the field with the original firmware. Since Q2E18(?) there was a change causing many more original? the firmware gets updated when you update the system release. (and it won't get downgraded if you downgrade the system release.) but you're right that if a laptop has never been upgraded from 656 (or 708) that it will still have the firmware that came with that release. On a side note, I still have the touchpad jumpiness on my recently received G1G1-2008 XOs. I will get some debug logs and send them. Should I attach them to my original ticket (#7788)? sure -- but note that the hardware in the g1g1-2008 machines is identical to the g1g1-2007 machines, so similar behavior isn't surprising. paul =- paul fox, [EMAIL PROTECTED] give one laptop, get one laptop --- http://www.amazon.com/xo ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: Touch pads
From: David Leeming [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Touch pads To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Some feedback on touch pads. I returned to the PNG trials school of Giare last week to do some training, and noticed several of the XO-1s (received in June 08) and running version 8.2 suffering very badly from the touchpad problem. One boy's laptop was almost unusable. We tried chalk, the 4 finger salute, rebooting, etc. Despite this, he managed to do the attached with Paint in the morning when it was cooler. During the afternoon the temperature must have been 35 deg C and 90% humidity. Is this problem likely to be solved with software updates? David Leeming Solomon Islands, South Pacific We have consistently had similar problems in Nepal. I think it is a hardware problem. One important point, make sure you hit the Fn key last when you do the 4-finger salute. -- Bryan W. Berry Technology Director OLE Nepal, http://www.olenepal.org ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: Touch pads
On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 02:42:42PM +0545, Bryan Berry wrote: One important point, make sure you hit the Fn key last when you do the 4-finger salute. Agreed. http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Four_finger_salute -- James Cameronmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://quozl.netrek.org/ ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: Touch pads
Bryan Berry wrote: David Leeming Solomon Islands, South Pacific We have consistently had similar problems in Nepal. I think it is a hardware problem. The core of the problem has yet to be identified but it certainly has hardware aspects. Here at 1cc we still don't have many units that have chronic symptoms to test with. It will be helpful if people who see the problem a lot can provide a sampling of serial numbers for units that seem to be the worst. If you do do have laptops that have the problem consistently we might want to try and do some sort of swap. Also if you can continue to correlate cool mornings with working and hot humid afternoons with not working that sort of data is useful. -- Richard Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] One Laptop Per Child ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: Touch pads
On Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 2:40 AM, Richard A. Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Bryan Berry wrote: Here at 1cc we still don't have many units that have chronic symptoms to test with. Oh really? I've seen trouble with almost any machine I touched around here in Nepal. Not that it happens every time, but it's so common to perform the 4-finger salute, that I don't even think about it anymore. As we've reported before, it also seems to get worse when the machines get dusty, and fat/sweaty fingers don't seem to help either. I somehow got the notion that models from the future would be helped with this defect somehow, but apparently that's not the case. And it's really to bad, since it's sort of the primary interface to the machine, and it's not all that pretty to see children, or anybody, struggling with it. It will be helpful if people who see the problem a lot can provide a sampling of serial numbers for units that seem to be the worst. Well, we can at least give you the serial numbers of the machines that we deployed. A range might help also I guess... If you do do have laptops that have the problem consistently we might want to try and do some sort of swap. I wouldn't go there... Sorry, not to rub it in,.. but.. yea, well a bit actually. This is a very, VERY big and very known (hardware) bug. And if it's still not resolved, it needs to be addressed asap. Is what I think... /Ties ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
RE: Touch pads
Ties, I am afraid that I have to agree, although not to distract from the brilliance of the rest of itonly to raise the importance of this issue. In our case one large (relative in our region) country is looking closely at a big commitment and these things are not helpful. David Leeming OLPC Coordinator, SPC and Technical Advisor, People First Network Honiara, Solomon Islands -Original Message- From: Ties Stuij [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, 26 November 2008 7:34 a.m. To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Bryan Berry; David Leeming PFnet; OLPC Developer's List Subject: Re: Touch pads On Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 2:40 AM, Richard A. Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Bryan Berry wrote: Here at 1cc we still don't have many units that have chronic symptoms to test with. Oh really? I've seen trouble with almost any machine I touched around here in Nepal. Not that it happens every time, but it's so common to perform the 4-finger salute, that I don't even think about it anymore. As we've reported before, it also seems to get worse when the machines get dusty, and fat/sweaty fingers don't seem to help either. I somehow got the notion that models from the future would be helped with this defect somehow, but apparently that's not the case. And it's really to bad, since it's sort of the primary interface to the machine, and it's not all that pretty to see children, or anybody, struggling with it. It will be helpful if people who see the problem a lot can provide a sampling of serial numbers for units that seem to be the worst. Well, we can at least give you the serial numbers of the machines that we deployed. A range might help also I guess... If you do do have laptops that have the problem consistently we might want to try and do some sort of swap. I wouldn't go there... Sorry, not to rub it in,.. but.. yea, well a bit actually. This is a very, VERY big and very known (hardware) bug. And if it's still not resolved, it needs to be addressed asap. Is what I think... /Ties ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
RE: Touch pads
On Wed, 26 Nov 2008, David Leeming wrote: I am afraid that I have to agree, although not to distract from the brilliance of the rest of itonly to raise the importance of this issue. In our case one large (relative in our region) country is looking closely at a big commitment and these things are not helpful. the problem is that if they can't duplicate the problem they can't fix it (they can change things, but they have no way of knowing if it fixes the problem or not) David Lang David Leeming OLPC Coordinator, SPC and Technical Advisor, People First Network Honiara, Solomon Islands -Original Message- From: Ties Stuij [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, 26 November 2008 7:34 a.m. To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Bryan Berry; David Leeming PFnet; OLPC Developer's List Subject: Re: Touch pads On Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 2:40 AM, Richard A. Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Bryan Berry wrote: Here at 1cc we still don't have many units that have chronic symptoms to test with. Oh really? I've seen trouble with almost any machine I touched around here in Nepal. Not that it happens every time, but it's so common to perform the 4-finger salute, that I don't even think about it anymore. As we've reported before, it also seems to get worse when the machines get dusty, and fat/sweaty fingers don't seem to help either. I somehow got the notion that models from the future would be helped with this defect somehow, but apparently that's not the case. And it's really to bad, since it's sort of the primary interface to the machine, and it's not all that pretty to see children, or anybody, struggling with it. It will be helpful if people who see the problem a lot can provide a sampling of serial numbers for units that seem to be the worst. Well, we can at least give you the serial numbers of the machines that we deployed. A range might help also I guess... If you do do have laptops that have the problem consistently we might want to try and do some sort of swap. I wouldn't go there... Sorry, not to rub it in,.. but.. yea, well a bit actually. This is a very, VERY big and very known (hardware) bug. And if it's still not resolved, it needs to be addressed asap. Is what I think... /Ties ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: Touch pads
On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 8:11 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: the problem is that if they can't duplicate the problem they can't fix it (they can change things, but they have no way of knowing if it fixes the problem or not) Well, right now I'm in a rather hot and humid location (Buenos Aires, Argentina), and will be here for 1 month, working. What things can I do to replicate it? Let the machine get very warm? Get very sweaty hands? This place is not dusty - not sure what would help this Are kids hands more likely to trigger it than adult hands? I have a 4 year-old that can help us. Does being grounded vs wearing rubber soled shoes make a difference? To Richard: What logs should I capture? Things to try? I somehow got the notion that models from the future would be helped with this defect somehow, but apparently that's not the case. Well, there *is* a new touchpad model in the works, I'm not sure exactly when it enters production. cheers, m -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- School Server Architect - ask interesting questions - don't get distracted with shiny stuff - working code first - http://wiki.laptop.org/go/User:Martinlanghoff ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: Touch pads
I've seen this as an increasing problem on my personal XO, which gets quite a bit of heavy use, as evidenced by the some what polished area of the touchpad, ringed with brownish dirt. As we've reported before, it also seems to get worse when the machines get dusty, and fat/sweaty fingers don't seem to help either I seems that the build up of dirt on the touchpad areas maybe effecting the capacitance of the touchpad surface. For those unaware, generally, touchpads use capacitance to detect your finger. If you have ever tried to use a touch pad with droplets of water on your fingers hand, you may have seen similar behavior on an otherwise normal touchpad. Perhaps a careful cleaning of the touchpad area with mild soap and drying may help. The extra poor behavior in humid conditions could be due to an increase in the conductivity of the built up grime from water absorption. -Joachim -- ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: Touch pads
not sure whether this is the same bug/limitation, but i have noticed the touchpad goes haywire when my daughter uses it with a bit of food on her fingers (obviously i try to avoid letting this happen, but sometimes it does anyhow...) i just tried to simulate this. as a test i used an eyedropper to put 0.5ml of tapwater onto the touchpad. suddenly the entire vertical strip of trackpad containing the droplet becomes nonresponsive, but the rest of the trackpad works still. when i drag my finger through the droplet to remove it from the trackpad, leving my finger a bit wet and tacky, the trackpad subsequently feels very jumpy. once i dry off my finger, though, it works fine. i don't have instruments here, but a local weather site says: 59.8 °F / 15.4 °C Haze Humidity: 75% Dew Point: 52 °F / 11 °C On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 2:42 PM, Martin Langhoff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 8:11 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: the problem is that if tqwheejkweey can't duplicate the problem they can't fix it (they can change things, but they have no way of knowing if it fixes the problem or not) Well, right now I'm in a rather hot and humid location (Buenos Aires, Argentina), and will be here for 1 month, working. What things can I do to replicate it? Let the machine get very warm? Get very sweaty hands? This place is not dusty - not sure what would help this Are kids hands more likely to trigger it than adult hands? I have a 4 year-old that can help us. Does being grounded vs wearing rubber soled shoes make a difference? To Richard: What logs should I capture? Things to try? I somehow got the notion that models from the future would be helped with this defect somehow, but apparently that's not the case. Well, there *is* a new touchpad model in the works, I'm not sure exactly when it enters production. cheers, m -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- School Server Architect - ask interesting questions - don't get distracted with shiny stuff - working code first - http://wiki.laptop.org/go/User:Martinlanghoff ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: Touch pads
Ties Stuij wrote: If you do do have laptops that have the problem consistently we might want to try and do some sort of swap. I wouldn't go there... Sorry, not to rub it in,.. but.. yea, well a bit actually. This is a very, VERY big and very known (hardware) bug. And if it's still not resolved, it needs to be addressed asap. Is what I think... I'm not talking about a large scale swap. I mean exchanging a few machines that have chronic jumpyness. So that the developers have machines that they can test on. Yes its a known bug... but whats not know is the exact cause or how to fix it. Touchpad problems are listed in many deployments. Our biggest hurdle to fixing it having reliable way to duplicate the problem. It seems to happen lots out in the wild its very hard to reproduce on demand and its pretty rare here at 1cc. The 8.2 kernel has a bunch of stuff to try to help but without solid test cases its a bit of guess work to see what difference the new changes have. We have a new touchpad that queued up for production. That will hit sometime next year when the current supply is out. Initial reports are that its much better than the current model. However see my next, post. That may not solve it 100% I still want to fix the issues with the current pad but I'll need outside help. If you can help here's what I need: 1) Serial number ranges for laptops that have have jumpy problems. 2) Laptops that are unlocked and people willing to run kernels with driver changes in areas where the problem is common. 3) As much data as possible on the conditions surrounding the laptop when the jumpyness happens. -- Richard Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] One Laptop Per Child ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: Touch pads
On Nov 25 2008, at 18:13, Richard A. Smith was caught saying: Touchpad problems are listed in many deployments. Our biggest hurdle to fixing it having reliable way to duplicate the problem. It seems to happen lots out in the wild its very hard to reproduce on demand and its pretty rare here at 1cc. The 8.2 kernel has a bunch of stuff to try to help but without solid test cases its a bit of guess work to see what difference the new changes have. We have a new touchpad that queued up for production. That will hit sometime next year when the current supply is out. Initial reports are that its much better than the current model. However see my next, post. That may not solve it 100% Can we get some of the new touchpad laptops out to locations that have reported issues due to heat/moisture to see how they respond? It would good to get some data and fix any issues before we roll these out en masse. ~Deepak -- Deepak Saxena - Kernel Developer, One Laptop Per Child _ __o (o ---\, Give One Laptop, Get One Laptop //\ - ( )/ ( ) http://www.amazon.com/xoV_/_ ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: Touch pads
Ben Wiley Sittler wrote: i just tried to simulate this. as a test i used an eyedropper to put 0.5ml of tapwater onto the touchpad. suddenly the entire vertical strip of trackpad containing Foreign material on all non multi-touch pads causes problems. Drops of liquid break every single touch touchpad type I've messed with. Its not something we can fix on a single touch device. -- Richard Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] One Laptop Per Child ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: Touch pads
Deepak Saxena wrote: Can we get some of the new touchpad laptops out to locations that have reported issues due to heat/moisture to see how they respond? It would good to get some data and fix any issues before we roll these out en masse. Perhaps. I'll have to check with wad and see if we have some left over. The ones we have do not have a textured surface for the plastic so they are a bit sticky to the finger. -- Richard Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] One Laptop Per Child ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: Touch pads
On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 9:34 PM, Ties Stuij [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 2:40 AM, Richard A. Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Bryan Berry wrote: Here at 1cc we still don't have many units that have chronic symptoms to test with. Oh really? I've seen trouble with almost any machine I touched around here in Nepal. Not that it happens every time, but it's so common to perform the 4-finger salute, that I don't even think about it anymore. It's strange. I was working with XOs at OLPC in Camrbdige for months, never having seen a problem (with 8.1) and wondering what the fuss was about. But per my experience in Ethiopia, this was a really common problem. Daniel ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: Touch pads
I'm here in Guatemala, and I see it to the point where it is a serious problem. This is an interesting data point, because it is more humid than hot here - average temperature around 21C but average humidity in the 70s or so - http://www.bbc.co.uk/weather/world/city_guides/results.shtml?tt=TT001860 . It seems to have gotten worse over the life of my machine. The machine is usable, but I am sure that if it were this bad in Boston it would be fixed by now. My daughter basically hands the mouse over to me half the time unless my optical mouse is free, and drawing programs are not worth it. I also think that improved keyboard navegability would be really worth it, because even if this is significantly improved, there will probably be thousands of units in the field getting bitten noticeably. Jameson ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
RE: Touch pads
It does seem to be the case there are some especially bad ones. I am getting the serial numbers and will post them here in a few days. However, to duplicate the situation, all I can suggest is that we have seen this in all our Pacific Islands deployments but the hotter and more humid, the worse the effect. David Leeming OLPC Coordinator, SPC and Technical Advisor, People First Network Honiara, Solomon Islands -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Daniel Drake Sent: Wednesday, 26 November 2008 10:39 a.m. To: Ties Stuij Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; David Leeming PFnet; Bryan Berry; OLPC Developer's List Subject: Re: Touch pads On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 9:34 PM, Ties Stuij [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 2:40 AM, Richard A. Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Bryan Berry wrote: Here at 1cc we still don't have many units that have chronic symptoms to test with. Oh really? I've seen trouble with almost any machine I touched around here in Nepal. Not that it happens every time, but it's so common to perform the 4-finger salute, that I don't even think about it anymore. It's strange. I was working with XOs at OLPC in Camrbdige for months, never having seen a problem (with 8.1) and wondering what the fuss was about. But per my experience in Ethiopia, this was a really common problem. Daniel ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: Touch pads
Note that the Embedded Controller firmware version is also important. I suppose there are still very many XOs out in the field with the original firmware. Since Q2E18(?) there was a change causing many more mouse packets to be delivered to the CPU. Also there was a change in mouse mode between ship.2 and update.1. Do not know what is out in the field. On a side note, I still have the touchpad jumpiness on my recently received G1G1-2008 XOs. I will get some debug logs and send them. Should I attach them to my original ticket (#7788)? Ton van Overbeek ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Touch pads
Some feedback on touch pads. I returned to the PNG trials school of Giare last week to do some training, and noticed several of the XO-1s (received in June 08) and running version 8.2 suffering very badly from the touchpad problem. One boy's laptop was almost unusable. We tried chalk, the 4 finger salute, rebooting, etc. Despite this, he managed to do the attached with Paint in the morning when it was cooler. During the afternoon the temperature must have been 35 deg C and 90% humidity. Is this problem likely to be solved with software updates? David Leeming Solomon Islands, South Pacific attachment: Tau-1.png___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
