Re: Cygwin/XFree86 - Staying or leaving XFree86.org? [Was: Re: Cygwin/XFree86 Bugs?]
Daniel Stone wrote: On Sun, Oct 26, 2003 at 03:51:05PM -0700, Marc Aurele La France wrote: On Sun, 26 Oct 2003, Peter "Firefly" Lund wrote: On Sun, 26 Oct 2003, David Dawes wrote: When I discussed this with you privately a while ago all I got were disrespectful and insulting responses. Now there is more of the same. Err... No. He was quite reasonable, in my opinion. On the contrary. Implying that XFree86 owes him anything, be it a personal/family life or the right to commit, is not reasonable at all. Saying "give me what I want to be a volunteer!" simply doesn't cut it. I've tried to stay out of this ... From my (impartial; I'm not taking sides) reading, he was saying, "if you want me here, it's on my terms, which includes CVS. No CVS, no me." He was (AFAICT) placing conditions on his continued participation in a volunteer activity, not making demands of other volunteers. Daniel, Thank you. It is nice to know that what I am writing can be read as I have intended it to be read. Harold ___ Devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Cygwin/XFree86 - Staying or leaving XFree86.org? [Was: Re: Cygwin/XFree86 Bugs?]
Marc Aurele La France wrote: On Sun, 26 Oct 2003, Peter "Firefly" Lund wrote: On Sun, 26 Oct 2003, David Dawes wrote: When I discussed this with you privately a while ago all I got were disrespectful and insulting responses. Now there is more of the same. Err... No. He was quite reasonable, in my opinion. On the contrary. Implying that XFree86 owes him anything, be it a personal/family life or the right to commit, is not reasonable at all. Saying "give me what I want to be a volunteer!" simply doesn't cut it. Marc, I am not implying that anyone owes me anything. XFree86 owes me nothing. I am asking to do *more* not *less* for the XFree86 project. Committing my own Cygwin-specific patches not only saves me time, but it saves all other XFree86 committers time as well. How is that implying that XFree86 owes me something? Harold ___ Devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Cygwin/XFree86 - Staying or leaving XFree86.org? [Was: Re: Cygwin/XFree86 Bugs?]
On Sun, 26 Oct 2003, Thomas Dickey wrote: > On Sun, 26 Oct 2003, Peter "Firefly" Lund wrote: > > > On Sun, 26 Oct 2003, David Dawes wrote: > > > > > When I discussed this with you privately a while ago all I got were > > > disrespectful and insulting responses. Now there is more of the same. > > > > Err... No. > > > > He was quite reasonable, in my opinion. > > He thought he was, but when I get email from people phrased that way, > I don't appreciate it. He really was. You weren't. His reply perhaps wasn't, either, but at least there was a reason for that which was discernible to dispassionate bystanders. -Peter ___ Devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/devel
ftp/anoncvs server problems
The server that hosts the XFree86 anoncvs, ftp, and cvsweb services died on Saturday morning. Most other services, like the mailing lists and the web site, should be unaffected. David -- David Dawes Founder/committer/developer The XFree86 Project www.XFree86.org/~dawes ___ Devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Cygwin/XFree86 - Staying or leaving XFree86.org? [Was: Re: Cygwin/XFree86 Bugs?]
Thomas Dickey wrote: On Sun, 26 Oct 2003, Peter "Firefly" Lund wrote: On Sun, 26 Oct 2003, David Dawes wrote: When I discussed this with you privately a while ago all I got were disrespectful and insulting responses. Now there is more of the same. Err... No. He was quite reasonable, in my opinion. He thought he was, but when I get email from people phrased that way, I don't appreciate it. Thomas Dickey, You sent me the biggest insult I have ever received in my life. How can you not realize that? How can you do anything except apologize for your extremely rude message? Please, never, ever, respond to another word that I write until you correct yourself. Harold ___ Devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Cygwin/XFree86 Bugs?
David Dawes wrote: On Sun, Oct 26, 2003 at 02:34:02PM -0500, Harold L Hunt II wrote: Thomas Dickey wrote: On Sat, 25 Oct 2003, Harold L Hunt II wrote: Seriously, I don't know why I waste my time submitting patches that are specific to my platform and then wait up to three weeks for them to be committed. It is a waste of my time and an insult that I am made to do well, when you graduate and (presumably) find a real job, you'll have a chance to get an idea of where time goes. the patches _are_ applied, right? Thanks for your amazing support Thomas. You don't know anything about me, so you can keep your blanket statements about where you time goes to yourself. By the way, how often do you have to go to the doctor's office? How often do you have to get prescriptions refiled? How often do you have to change the tubing for a medical device that is attached to you? Huh? Didn't think so. So, please take this as kindly as possible when I say: Go fuck yourself. The funny thing here is that I am volunteering to take care of my own patches and I am personally insulted that my offer is being ignored. Nobody is going to take you seriously if all you can do is be rude and insulting. Excuse me, Thomas Dickey stepped *way* out of line here. This is a side conversation, but since he made his insult public, I made my response public. As for the core of this thread, I am trying very hard not to be rude and insulting. Look, everyone knows that you like the development model that you have going here (else, it wouldn't be setup this way). How would you suggest I word a request that you change that development model in such a way that it would not be inflamatory towards you or XFree86? It can't be done. That is part of the problem: Any way that I, or another developer, assertively requests CVS access is met with a flame fest. That is not a sign of a healthy organization that is looking to attract developers. Harold ___ Devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Cygwin/XFree86 - Staying or leaving XFree86.org? [Was: Re: Cygwin/XFree86 Bugs?]
David Dawes wrote: On Sun, Oct 26, 2003 at 12:37:29PM -0500, Harold L Hunt II wrote: Michel Dänzer wrote: Well, you know, XFree86's disregard for offers to help made by developers that have been with the project for over two years are certainly part of the problem. Err, this is about bug triage, which you can do just as well as everybody else. No, this is about my submitting Cygwin-specific bugs that can't actually be assigned to me for committing them, even though I am the "expert" on Cygwin/XFree86. This thread started to point out the hypocrisy of the situation and to see what the official response to this was. When I discussed this with you privately a while ago all I got were disrespectful and insulting responses. Now there is more of the same. As a volunteer myself, I don't have to take this type of attitude from you or from anyone else. And I won't. David, I mentioned that failure to commit my patches in a timely manner causes me to have a hard time figuring out which have been committed and which haven't (this was when I was sending patches to [EMAIL PROTECTED]). You probably never saw this system from the standpoint of a non-commit developer. The problem here is that you send a patch to the list, it randomly gets committed by someone (you don't know who in advance, so you have to track everyone's committs), then you have to figure out who committed it (if anyone) and if it was done correctly. The system was a mess and did not aid non-commit developers in tracking their patches. Your response to this comment was that I was unorganized and that it cause by my lack of attention to detail. Was that a respectful and non-insulting response to my message? Is this my formal message to piss off? Harold ___ Devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Cygwin/XFree86 - Staying or leaving XFree86.org? [Was: Re: Cygwin/XFree86 Bugs?]
On Sun, Oct 26, 2003 at 12:37:29PM -0500, Harold L Hunt II wrote: >Michel Dänzer wrote: >>>Well, you know, XFree86's disregard for offers to help made by >>>developers that have been with the project for over two years are >>>certainly part of the problem. >> >> Err, this is about bug triage, which you can do just as well as >> everybody else. > >No, this is about my submitting Cygwin-specific bugs that can't actually >be assigned to me for committing them, even though I am the "expert" on >Cygwin/XFree86. This thread started to point out the hypocrisy of the >situation and to see what the official response to this was. When I discussed this with you privately a while ago all I got were disrespectful and insulting responses. Now there is more of the same. As a volunteer myself, I don't have to take this type of attitude from you or from anyone else. And I won't. David -- David Dawes Founder/committer/developer The XFree86 Project www.XFree86.org/~dawes ___ Devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: newbie question
david mancel wrote (in a message from Thursday 23)
> Hello all,
>
> i have a question about Xfree internals.
>
> i would like to know how xfree "capture" the keyboard and mouse events. Is
> it with a simple "read" ? And does it rely on the OS?
Yes, it's basically a read from the proper driver from the
OS.
>
> i know that in text mode, the characters comes from read(), which comes from
> somewhere in the tty driver...
>
> any direct answer, (accurate) source code pointers, or urls are welcome :)
>
The code path for input devices is rather complicated, because there
are many levels of interpretation.
All server-side code is in xc/programs/Xserver
The lowest level is the OS-dependent level, found in
hw/xfree86/os-support//*_{io,kbd,mouse}.c
Then you have either the XInput level (code in hw/xfree86/input/*) or
the legacy keyboard driver in hw/xfree86/common/xf86Kbd.c and
hw/xfree86/common/xf86KbdBSD.c
These functions may use hw/xfree86/os-support/shared/posix-tty.c and
hw/xfree86/os-support/shared/sigio.c to do asynchronous (non blocking)
I/O.
The level just about this is in hw/xfree86/common/xf86Events.c.
It then goes to the XKB level whose lower level is implemented in
hw/xfree86/common/xf86XKB.c. The upper level (device-independant) is
in directly in the xkb directory.
Matthieu
___
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Re: Cygwin/XFree86 Bugs?
Craig, Craig Groeschel wrote: I'm afraid your rants and threats won't do much good there though. Great. Shoot the messenger. (btw, No one is ranting or threatening. Just being lucid and assertive. IMHO.) Thanks for your support. I have tried, and failed on occasion, to maintain my composure. I have noticed a lot of drama and negativity on this list too. I don't have experience with other free software projects so I don't know whether this is the case everywhere. [snip] I guess what I am saying is I think XFree86 has a tremendous opportunity here. And I for one will be watching to see the outcome. I send my best wishes to all parties. Thanks again for your support. Harold ___ Devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Cygwin/XFree86 - Staying or leaving XFree86.org? [Was: Re: Cygwin/XFree86 Bugs?]
On Sun, Oct 26, 2003 at 03:51:05PM -0700, Marc Aurele La France wrote: > On Sun, 26 Oct 2003, Peter "Firefly" Lund wrote: > > On Sun, 26 Oct 2003, David Dawes wrote: > > > When I discussed this with you privately a while ago all I got were > > > disrespectful and insulting responses. Now there is more of the same. > > > Err... No. > > > He was quite reasonable, in my opinion. > > On the contrary. Implying that XFree86 owes him anything, be it a > personal/family life or the right to commit, is not reasonable at all. > Saying "give me what I want to be a volunteer!" simply doesn't cut it. I've tried to stay out of this ... From my (impartial; I'm not taking sides) reading, he was saying, "if you want me here, it's on my terms, which includes CVS. No CVS, no me." He was (AFAICT) placing conditions on his continued participation in a volunteer activity, not making demands of other volunteers. -- Daniel Stone <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> http://www.debian.org - http://www.kde.org - http://www.freedesktop.org "What's next? People turning up on my doorstep, observing that the lack of doorbell is likely to confuse people and hence removing my front door?" -- David Woodhouse on usability efforts, Advogato pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Cygwin/XFree86 Bugs?
Thomas Dickey wrote: On Sat, 25 Oct 2003, Harold L Hunt II wrote: Seriously, I don't know why I waste my time submitting patches that are specific to my platform and then wait up to three weeks for them to be committed. It is a waste of my time and an insult that I am made to do well, when you graduate and (presumably) find a real job, you'll have a chance to get an idea of where time goes. > the patches _are_ applied, right? Thanks for your amazing support Thomas. You don't know anything about me, so you can keep your blanket statements about where you time goes to yourself. By the way, how often do you have to go to the doctor's office? How often do you have to get prescriptions refiled? How often do you have to change the tubing for a medical device that is attached to you? Huh? Didn't think so. So, please take this as kindly as possible when I say: Go fuck yourself. The funny thing here is that I am volunteering to take care of my own patches and I am personally insulted that my offer is being ignored. Harold ___ Devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Cygwin/XFree86 - Staying or leaving XFree86.org? [Was: Re: Cygwin/XFree86 Bugs?]
On Sun, 26 Oct 2003, Peter "Firefly" Lund wrote: > On Sun, 26 Oct 2003, David Dawes wrote: > > When I discussed this with you privately a while ago all I got were > > disrespectful and insulting responses. Now there is more of the same. > Err... No. > He was quite reasonable, in my opinion. On the contrary. Implying that XFree86 owes him anything, be it a personal/family life or the right to commit, is not reasonable at all. Saying "give me what I want to be a volunteer!" simply doesn't cut it. Marc. +--+---+ | Marc Aurele La France | work: 1-780-492-9310 | | Computing and Network Services | fax:1-780-492-1729 | | 352 General Services Building | email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | | University of Alberta +---+ | Edmonton, Alberta | | | T6G 2H1 | Standard disclaimers apply| | CANADA | | +--+---+ XFree86 Core Team member. ATI driver and X server internals. ___ Devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Cygwin/XFree86 - Staying or leaving XFree86.org? [Was: Re: Cygwin/XFree86 Bugs?]
On Sun, 26 Oct 2003, Peter "Firefly" Lund wrote: > On Sun, 26 Oct 2003, David Dawes wrote: > > > When I discussed this with you privately a while ago all I got were > > disrespectful and insulting responses. Now there is more of the same. > > Err... No. > > He was quite reasonable, in my opinion. He thought he was, but when I get email from people phrased that way, I don't appreciate it. -- Thomas E. Dickey http://invisible-island.net ftp://invisible-island.net ___ Devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Cygwin/XFree86 Bugs?
On Sat, 25 Oct 2003, Harold L Hunt II wrote: > Seriously, I don't know why I waste my time submitting patches that are > specific to my platform and then wait up to three weeks for them to be > committed. It is a waste of my time and an insult that I am made to do well, when you graduate and (presumably) find a real job, you'll have a chance to get an idea of where time goes. the patches _are_ applied, right? -- Thomas E. Dickey http://invisible-island.net ftp://invisible-island.net ___ Devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Cygwin/XFree86 Bugs?
On Sun, Oct 26, 2003 at 02:34:02PM -0500, Harold L Hunt II wrote: >Thomas Dickey wrote: > >> On Sat, 25 Oct 2003, Harold L Hunt II wrote: >> >> >>>Seriously, I don't know why I waste my time submitting patches that are >>>specific to my platform and then wait up to three weeks for them to be >>>committed. It is a waste of my time and an insult that I am made to do >> >> >> well, when you graduate and (presumably) find a real job, you'll have >> a chance to get an idea of where time goes. >> > > the patches _are_ applied, right? > >Thanks for your amazing support Thomas. > >You don't know anything about me, so you can keep your blanket >statements about where you time goes to yourself. > >By the way, how often do you have to go to the doctor's office? How >often do you have to get prescriptions refiled? How often do you have >to change the tubing for a medical device that is attached to you? Huh? > Didn't think so. So, please take this as kindly as possible when I >say: Go fuck yourself. > >The funny thing here is that I am volunteering to take care of my own >patches and I am personally insulted that my offer is being ignored. Nobody is going to take you seriously if all you can do is be rude and insulting. David -- David Dawes Founder/committer/developer The XFree86 Project www.XFree86.org/~dawes ___ Devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Cygwin/XFree86 - Staying or leaving XFree86.org? [Was: Re: Cygwin/XFree86 Bugs?]
Michel DÃnzer wrote: Well, you know, XFree86's disregard for offers to help made by developers that have been with the project for over two years are certainly part of the problem. Err, this is about bug triage, which you can do just as well as everybody else. No, this is about my submitting Cygwin-specific bugs that can't actually be assigned to me for committing them, even though I am the "expert" on Cygwin/XFree86. This thread started to point out the hypocrisy of the situation and to see what the official response to this was. I agree that you should be able to commit Cygwin stuff yourself (but I can't do anything about it), I'm afraid your rants and threats won't do much good there though. Thanks for your agreement. Hmm... rants and threats isn't very polite. I have asked numerous people to both "elect" me to get commit access and I have asked people with the power to do so to set me up with it (all privately, off list, as it should be). Nothing has ever happened from any of those requests. What else am I supposed to do? I have made a decision that my family deserves the time that XFree86 is having me waste being a patch nanny. In light of that decision, I am either going to commit my bugs directly to XFree86's CVS, or I am going to leave the project. It is not a "rant" or "threat" to tell people this. This is simply the way it is going to be, from my standpoint. As I said, I have made a decision to give this time back to my family, and I am going to do that, regardless of what other people decide their role in this will be. Either way this plays out, I get to spend less time developing on X for the same amount of impact, and my family recovers three or four hours a month. When you are in a graduate degree program and working 30-40 hours per week, that is a *lot* of time. So here is the choice to be made again: 1) Set me up with CVS commit access with the understanding that I commit only Cygwin-specific patches and all others get sent in through bugs.xfree86.org for review by other developers. -or- 2) I will stop sending patches for Cygwin support. It is simply not worth my time and I feel that the XFree86 project has no right to take that time away from me or my family. I ask that the CVS commit access be granted within 2 months if it is going to be granted. If access is not going to be granted, then a short note telling me to piss off would be appreciated so that I can start setting up my tree elsewhere. Thank you very much for *your* time, Harold ___ Devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Cygwin/XFree86 Bugs?
> I'm afraid your rants and threats won't do > much good there though. Great. Shoot the messenger. (btw, No one is ranting or threatening. Just being lucid and assertive. IMHO.) I have noticed a lot of drama and negativity on this list too. I don't have experience with other free software projects so I don't know whether this is the case everywhere. It does seem there is a tendency in the X world to demonize people. In some cases that's warranted; I have run across more than one roguish character (I am NOT talking about anyone who is reading this list.). But in the general case I think it is better to give people the benefit of the doubt. Especially on what is ostensibly a free software project (though many contributors are fortunate enough to be compensated for their expertise). I find that people tend to live up or live down to your expectations. So if you want contributions you should encourage contributions. (And I'm not talking about proclaiming "We want contributions." None of us are naive; we all know it's a little more subtle than that.) It is true that some of these contributions might break things. Welcome to the real world. There are formal and informal means of hedging this risk. I know, I know, who is this guy. I first contributed to XFree86 shortly after the crust of the earth cooled. That working for free landed me a job, though one of the conditions of my employment was that I stop contributing to XFree86. As I have not been encumbered by employment for a very long time now, I guess I could start contributing again. I would certainly like to be seen as a member of the community, positive contributor, etc. But I don't know, there just seems to be way too much attitude for my taste right now. And I also think I am too old to work for free. Certainly too hungry :). I guess what I am saying is I think XFree86 has a tremendous opportunity here. And I for one will be watching to see the outcome. I send my best wishes to all parties. = -- Craig Groeschel >ladder91 at yahoo dot com< AT '00 Tread lightly. Leave no trace. Never forget. "Fuel is a resource; people aren't." Dennis Bakke When replying, please do not quote my entire message. __ Do you Yahoo!? Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/ ___ Devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Cygwin/XFree86 - Staying or leaving XFree86.org? [Was: Re: Cygwin/XFree86 Bugs?]
On Sun, 26 Oct 2003, David Dawes wrote: > When I discussed this with you privately a while ago all I got were > disrespectful and insulting responses. Now there is more of the same. Err... No. He was quite reasonable, in my opinion. -Peter ___ Devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Cygwin/XFree86 Bugs?
On Sat, 2003-10-25 at 19:53, Harold L Hunt II wrote: > Michel DÃnzer wrote: > > On Wed, 2003-10-22 at 17:13, Egbert Eich wrote: > > > >>Marc Aurele La France writes: > >> > > >> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] is an ML anyone can subscribe to. I am, and, I > >> > believe, so is Egbert. > >> > >>No, not currently. I usually go to the web interface and > >>look at the open bugs, process new ones that can be handled > >>quickly, or try to assign them to an expert on the specific > >>area. > >> > >>There are a lot more areas than we have experts - in these > >>cases I try to work on the ticket myself. This, and the > >>low quality of some of the submissions, consumes a > >>considerable amount of time. > > > > > > Indeed, you're doing most of the bugzilla work alone; it's a pity there > > aren't more people helping with that. > > Well, you know, XFree86's disregard for offers to help made by > developers that have been with the project for over two years are > certainly part of the problem. Err, this is about bug triage, which you can do just as well as everybody else. I agree that you should be able to commit Cygwin stuff yourself (but I can't do anything about it), I'm afraid your rants and threats won't do much good there though. -- Earthling Michel DÃnzer \ Debian (powerpc), XFree86 and DRI developer Software libre enthusiast \ http://svcs.affero.net/rm.php?r=daenzer ___ Devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Cygwin/XFree86 Bugs?
On Sat, 25 Oct 2003, Michel [ISO-8859-1] Dänzer wrote: >> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] is an ML anyone can subscribe to. I am, and, I >> > believe, so is Egbert. >> >> No, not currently. I usually go to the web interface and >> look at the open bugs, process new ones that can be handled >> quickly, or try to assign them to an expert on the specific >> area. >> >> There are a lot more areas than we have experts - in these >> cases I try to work on the ticket myself. This, and the >> low quality of some of the submissions, consumes a >> considerable amount of time. > >Indeed, you're doing most of the bugzilla work alone; it's a pity there >aren't more people helping with that. Perhaps, but Egbert and the others contributing do such a good job, that if everyone at XFree86.org actively used bugzilla, there would be zero open bugs to fix! ;o) Where's the challenge in that? ;o) If everyone used bugzilla, we'd have to go out of our ways to find new bugs to report just to keep everyone busy. ;o) On a much more serious note though, I'm very happy that bugzilla has worked as well as it has, and I'd like to thank everyone both at XFree86.org, and in the community for all the contributions people have made, both reporting bugs, supplying patches, helping track down various issues, and committing fixes to CVS, etc., etc. Good work to everyone who has contributed! -- Mike A. Harris ___ Devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/devel
